2009-2010 Internship Thread

[psychmama]

At the VA I'm at we get full health benefits since we're full time employees. You sign up just like any other new employee. You pay a monthly premium, though I'm not sure how much is taken out of your check. I think it's pretty reasonable (I didn't take the insurance since I already have some).

Thanks Cosmo. I went online and found some info about this. For me, I probably will want the benefits, so it's a factor.

Thanks again!

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[Therapist4Chnge]

I'm wondering about this too. While most people I've heard about matched to #1 or #2, I know several who got their 4th or 5th choice. I also know someone who got 9 interviews and didn't match!

How about others? Anybody hear of someone ranking like 10 places and ending up with #9 or 10?

I know someone who got their #6 choice last year.

I'm ranking 10....so the above kind of freaked me out!!

 

[Eruca]

I know someone who got their #6 choice last year.

I'm ranking 10....so the above kind of freaked me out!!

And thoughts about how this happens? I know someone who matched to their #3 last year, but I think their top 2 were very competitive and also had very few spots. For the people who got #6 or lower - any ideas of why that might be? (e.g., are they people who have a harder time interviewing or are less able to represent themselves in person?)

Also, I've heard the stories about 9 interviews and not matching-- so these aren't myths, you know them? Was it just a fluke? I'm wondering (as everyone else I'm sure) how this comes about... ?

 

[psychmama]

And thoughts about how this happens? I know someone who matched to their #3 last year, but I think their top 2 were very competitive and also had very few spots. For the people who got #6 or lower - any ideas of why that might be? (e.g., are they people who have a harder time interviewing or are less able to represent themselves in person?)

Also, I've heard the stories about 9 interviews and not matching-- so these aren't myths, you know them? Was it just a fluke? I'm wondering (as everyone else I'm sure) how this comes about... ?

I actually know such a person. I really don't know why they didn't match. There's no glaring reason I can think of -- maybe just a fluke. I don't think this is a very common occurrence. I guess we'd all like to explain it somehow, but I guess some freak things do occur in the match process.

 

[PsyD123]

Does anyone know how many applicants programs tend to end up ranking? For example, a program that interviewed 50 applicants, would the program rank all of the applicants interviewed or just the top percentage of the 50?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Also, I've heard the stories about 9 interviews and not matching-- so these aren't myths, you know them? Was it just a fluke? I'm wondering (as everyone else I'm sure) how this comes about... ?

Often I think it has to do with "fit". A person can look right on paper, but they aren't the right fit for a place....so if you originally had seven interviews, but only five are realistically a good fit, now you are really counting on those five, as the other two probably aren't going to rank you/rank you high enough.

Another complicating factor is competitiveness. Last year I only applied to very competitive sites, and while I got a good number of interviews, I ultimately didn't match*. Looking back, I didn't give myself much leeway, so that was definitely my fault. I'm pretty sure if I mixed in less competitive sites I would have had a better shot.

*I ended up with 6 phone interviews and 2 offers in the first day of Clearinghouse, but I declined them because of "fit"....definitely one of the hardest decisions I've made in grad school.

Does anyone know how many applicants programs tend to end up ranking? For example, a program that interviewed 50 applicants, would the program rank all of the applicants interviewed or just the top percentage of the 50?

It varies greatly. I talked to one site last year and they said they rank ~20, but they've never gone below #8. Take it with a grain of salt because I know other sites that rank a lot of people, but still end up in Clearinghouse, so.....it probably varies greatly by site. Some places interview 75+ applicants for 5 spots, while others interview 20 for 2.

 

[psychmama]

The competitiveness of the program is an interesting point. Due to geography, all of the sites I applied to were highly competitive, although some were more so than others. I applied to 19 sites and got 11 interview, and will rank 10. A couple of those 10 are slightly less competitive -- but they still interviewed at least 9-10x the applicants that they have slots for. Then again, the less "popular" places probably have to dig deeper into their applicant pools to fill all of their intern slots (since many they will like may prefer to go somewhere else).

Are people convinced there's no competitive disadvantage to ranking according to your true preference rather than factoring in where you think you have the best chances of being ranked highly? I've read everything NMS and APPIC says about this, but I still wonder...

 

[BellaPsyD]

sitting in LAX, finished my last interview!

unfortunately- I turn 25 tomorrow....no benefit for car rentals for me!

 

[leggo my ego]

Anyone else out there notice all of the hospital hiring freezes and cuts? All of NY public hospitals, Cambridge Hospital is cutting programs and staff. I have a bad feeling about the next couple of years.

 

[docma]

Trust yourself and rank your preferences. The matching is led by your preferences, so if you try to outguess the system it will match you to the "less preferred-but -elevated to outguess the system site" even if there is room at your preferred site. You don't want that.

You will be matched to the highest site on your list that wants you. They will get you over someone else who also wanted that site but they wanted you more. If you don't get your first choice it is because they had ranked someone who wanted them higher than they ranked you. (Which doesn't mean they wouldn't also want you--but spaces are limited--and they will rank for "best fit" with their program). Sites find it hard to do the ranking too. But none of it works if participants try to game the system.

It seems brutal but it works more effectively and fairly than the alternatives and everyone is simply having to suffer with the current supply-demand imbalance. I think that when well-qualified students don't match it is almost always a function of having limited themselves to very competitive sites or needing to have a restricted geographical range. The APPIC site has some stats that help give a picture of how increased number of sites ranked increases likelihood of matching. And keep in mind that if a program has 4 positions to fill then students 1-4 are all "first ranked"-You could be # 6 on their list--but still match if 2 folks listed 1-4 preferred a different site that wanted them. Don't think about it too much; just rank your preferences and then find powerful distractions for the next 3 weeks.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Anyone else out there notice all of the hospital hiring freezes and cuts? All of NY public hospitals, Cambridge Hospital is cutting programs and staff. I have a bad feeling about the next couple of years.

VA's are one of the few places that are expanding psych staff. Otherwise, I'm a bit concerned overall....but I feel like people who do niche work should be okay.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I finally submitted my ranking.....and now I want to change it. I know my top 3, but then I'm not sure how I want to handle the next group. I interviewed at a consortium that said they will be ranking me for 3 spots there, so I'm not sure if that will make a difference because I would most likely like to go there, but at least one of the spots I feel like I don't have a shot at (most of the people I interviewed with that day were in the area and had a ton more direct experience, etc). APPIC says to rank how I would like to go, but I'm pretty sure my #8-#10 will rank me pretty well, and I don't want to "miss" those if I rank other sites ahead of them. uhg.

 

[Eruca]

I finally submitted my ranking.....and now I want to change it. I know my top 3, but then I'm not sure how I want to handle the next group.

I've heard lots of people are having this dilemma!

I interviewed at a consortium that said they will be ranking me for 3 spots there,

They gave you ranking information?? Tsk tsk. Total APPIC no-no.

so I'm not sure if that will make a difference because I would most likely like to go there, but at least one of the spots I feel like I don't have a shot at (most of the people I interviewed with that day were in the area and had a ton more direct experience, etc). APPIC says to rank how I would like to go, but I'm pretty sure my #8-#10 will rank me pretty well, and I don't want to "miss" those if I rank other sites ahead of them. uhg.

You absolutely won't 'miss' any of your lower ranking sites. If your #8 ranks you FIRST - then you hold that spot until you're matched with a site that is further up your ranking list (e.g., your more preferred). If you don't match in ranked sites 1-7, then you STILL hold that #1 slot at your #8. However, if you get matched to one of your more favored sites, then your #1 slot gets wiped out and goes to the next ranked applicant. It doesn't matter where you rank the sites that are ranking you in the top - meaning you are not 'punished' for not ranking them first. You really really should rank your sites in your true order of preference. The match is set up so you don't have to play any mind games...

 

[BellaPsyD]

i'm having a problem that's different than everyone else. None of my sites stand out to me in a "I HAVE to be there" kind of way! arg.

 

[psychmama]

I'm pretty unenthused with all but the top three places on my list. even those have pros and cons. I just keep repeating tha manta "It's only a year and you need to get through the internship" -- hoping this will convince me not to invest too much of myself in this process. It's a hurdle, like the dissertation. It isn't the same thing as interviewing for a real job. I try to keep that in mind so I don't go crazy.

I really do think that there are opportunities to learn a lot at most internship sites. Of course, maybe you'll be learning what NOT to do and what you DON'T like in a job.

I will be so happy when this is all over!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

They gave you ranking information?? Tsk tsk. Total APPIC no-no.

They said that if you interviewed for multiple spots within the consortium, that you would be considered for all of those you interviewed for.....so I have 3 spots to rank.

You really really should rank your sites in your true order of preference. The match is set up so you don't have to play any mind games...

This "process" is definitely not idea, but I hope you are right. I wish sites and applicants could declare #1, and if they agree....sign off and be done with it.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I'm pretty unenthused with all but the top three places on my list. even those have pros and cons. I just keep repeating tha manta "It's only a year and you need to get through the internship" -- hoping this will convince me not to invest too much of myself in this process.

I'm not sure if it is just the type of sites I looked at, but practically all were also pushing for their post-doc spots. Many of the places I looked seemed to place at least half of their post-doc spots from their interns. I am trying to land somewhere that allows me to stay for a few years (at least for my top 3).

 

[psychanon]

I'm having a really hard time with my rankings, too. I also had the experience of having no internship jump out at me. On the other hand, I really liked all the places I interviewed, so it's more a problem of everything being adequate. The ones that I have slight preferences for are also the ones that I am less enthused about location-wise. I don't know. I need to make some quick decisions!

Therapist4Change, Eruca is right-- you won't "miss out" on your lower ranked programs at all. Remember, provided you rank all of your programs, the order in which you rank the programs does not affect your probability of matching; it just affects where you match. So, if you rank site X as #10, and every other applicant ranks site X as #1, if site X ranks you as #1, you will match there UNLESS you instead match at one of your higher ranked programs.

BellaPsyD- Happy birthday, but how on earth are you applying for internship and only just now turning 25??

 

[BellaPsyD]

^ Combined MA/PsyD, right out of undergrad, accelerated program (aka- no time to breathe!)

THANKS!!!

 

[psychmama]

I'm not sure if it is just the type of sites I looked at, but practically all were also pushing for their post-doc spots. Many of the places I looked seemed to place at least half of their post-doc spots from their interns. I am trying to land somewhere that allows me to stay for a few years (at least for my top 3).

I also have considered post-doc opportunities in my decision. I'd say a fair number of the sites I'm ranking do some hiring post-internship, and interns do seem to have the edge. Still, I like to think that if I go somewhere and hate it -- or if they don't offer me something the following year -- I'll have other options. Maybe part of the difference is that I won't be relocating for internship. In terms of jobs "This is it"! Whatever's around within commuting distance is where I'll be. I hope that will work out somehow. Luckily, I think I have the capacity to make the most of wherever I end up. Eventually I might even luck into a great place where I can settle in while I build my private practice.

 

[Eruca]

They said that if you interviewed for multiple spots within the consortium, that you would be considered for all of those you interviewed for.....so I have 3 spots to rank.

Sorry T4C, I must have misunderstood. You're saying they rank everyone who interviewed, but you don't know how high/low that rank might be. (?)

This "process" is definitely not idea, but I hope you are right. I wish sites and applicants could declare #1, and if they agree....sign off and be done with it.

You're right, for many reasons this process is pretty far from ideal. Are you saying you wish it was just a regular job offer strategy rather than a match system? Understandable. Though if you and the site both declare each other #1 - then it pretty much is a done deal. Unfortunately you just have to wait for the 'magic computer' to tell you.

Regarding the algorithm of the match, barring some weird computer snafoo, I'm really not relying on the 'hope' that I'm right. The APPIC website pretty much lays out how the match works. Although I'm not thrilled with this process, at least the match is student driven, and you don't get penalized for not guessing who likes you the most.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Sorry T4C, I must have misunderstood. You're saying they rank everyone who interviewed, but you don't know how high/low that rank might be. (?)

yup.

Are you saying you wish it was just a regular job offer strategy rather than a match system?

Pretty much. It is a very odd system they have,but I understand why they do it.

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In other ranking news....make sure to get your rank order lists in!!! The deadline is TODAY by 11:59PM.

 

[orthogonal]

Ranking is the hardest decision I've had to make in an extremely long time.

I went in last night and made changes and may make some more but I made a pact with myself that I would not make any changes after 5 PM.

 

[psychmama]

Absolutely cannot concentrate today. I keep thinking about the ranking. REALLY -- do I expect to come to some vastly different conclusion after looking at these site names for nearly three weeks now?

 

[psychanon]

Although I'm not thrilled with this process, at least the match is student driven, and you don't get penalized for not guessing who likes you the most.

You know, I like the match process. I think that it's a great idea. It means you get the best choice possible, and takes away guesswork or problems that come with holding offers. Compare it to the grad school admission process. Sally may desperately want to go to UCLA, and Jane may really want to go to Penn, but if Jane gets an offer from UCLA and Sally from Penn, they're kind of screwed over and will probably end up going to their second choice. Or, in a frequent scenario, Mary may get 6 offers from 6 different programs, and takes until April 15th to make up her mind, and in the meantime all the second-choice people at the 5 surplus schools give up and take other offers elsewhere (perhaps feeling slighted). The match process takes care of all these issues. If there were a match process for grad school, Sally would end up at UCLA, Jane would end up at Penn, Mary would be forced to make up her mind at the same time as everyone else and end up at the school of her choice while her offers at other 5 programs would go to other people, and no one would ever even know that they were sloppy seconds. Of course, you have to picture this process on a massive scale. Ultimately, although this system is somewhat unorthodox and out of line with what we're used to, it's really to our benefit.

Now, that does not mean that I like making my rank list-- it's so stressful making these binding decisions. But I'd have to make decisions not matter what the system was-- at least now, I feel like I'm making choices between lots of different programs--- illusion of control, you know?

 

[orthogonal]

Okay so I went in and changed something at 7 PM. I couldn't even stick to my one rule which was no changing after 5 PM.

Why do they make us wait so long? We have computers for a reason!! Does anyone know what NMS is up to between tonight and Match Day?

 

[psychmama]

I think the part that adds to the stress is that the match system means applicants and programs feel inhibited about sending their preferred candidates/sites "signals" that they're in contention. For us psychology types, I think we're used to reading these signals and they help us know where we stand. The fact that there's less of this to rely on in the match process adds to the stress level (at least for me it does).

 

[Eruca]

I really appreciate your comments, psychanon. While this process from application to match is FAR from perfect, I do think it is better than grad school process in many ways. I had to wait 2 weeks post-interview for an offer to my current grad program as the #1 applicant was holding on to her offer.. (felt like the longest 2 weeks ever! - until now).

I also like the anonymity involved; that the sites will never know just how I ranked them (despite what I said in the interview). Although the idea of not knowing how I was ranked beyond where I matched is indeed a never to be fulfilled curiosity.

The lack of signals part that psychmama brought up is also a hard one, and harder because it seems to differ by site. I had a couple sites tell me either by email, or during the interview, that I was a great match for their program. Until the results are in, I am not comforted - but it was nice to hear. Makes comparisons hard because some programs have strict non-communication rules...

And, yes, orthogonal! -- just what in the heck are they doing between tonight and Feb 20??

 

[docma]

The APPIC network will send a message describing what is involved and why the elapsed time is required. If you think about the number of lists that have to be managed and checked for this all to work smoothly it makes sense that it is not simple or swift. And imagine what would be entailed if we didn't have computers doing a lot of the procedural steps......

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I just changed my list....and found an error!! I fixed it...with 1 hour and 51 minutes to spare!

Now I'm done.

 

[sicologia]

It's 11:59 here on the East coast. I can now say there is officially nothing I can do about my ranking! Good luck everyone!

 

[therapy rocks]

I was up till the clock struck 11:59 pm and now I can go to bed and hope that everything works out! Good luck everybody!

 

[psychmama]

Had a weird dream last night that definitely seemed related to "internship stress". Hubby say he cannot wait until Match Day so I can stop obsessing!

Good luck to us all

 

[BellaPsyD]

arg, I'm obsessing. I was uncertain about where I placed this one site in my ROL, and now I think it should be lower.....need to stop freaking out!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I'm keeping myself busy down here (trying to enjoy all of the 80 degree days I can save up!), but my friends/family....."Feb 20th!, We can't wait!", "Good luck with Match!", etc. I love them....but I'm just trying to not think about it until Feb 19th or so.

Btw, this was on the listserv, and may be helpful for people.

--------------------------
Now that the frenzy of applying, interviewing, and ranking is over, applicants and programs now face one of the most challenging parts of this process: waiting for the Match results.

We very much understand that waiting can be extremely stressful, and APPIC and NMS have done everything possible to minimize the amount of time that applicants and programs must wait for their results.

In fact, one of the most frequently asked questions that APPIC receives at this point is, "Why do we have to wait 2 1/2 weeks to get our results?". This e-mail provides details about what happens during this time.

Basically, NMS is extremely busy throughout this period, providing extensive checking and re-checking of the data to ensure the accuracy and integrity of the Match results. For example:

1. NMS works very hard to ensure that no one "falls through the cracks" in the process. They do their best to see that each of the more than 3,700 applicants and 1,100 internship programs have submitted either a Rank Order List or a formal withdrawal from the Match. They attempt to contact Training Directors and applicants from whom they are expecting a response, but who have not submitted either a Rank Order List or a withdrawal.

2. There are a significant number of sites with very complex requirements that must submit their Rank Order Lists to NMS on paper. Each of these paper submissions must be reviewed and analyzed to ensure they have been prepared correctly, then entered and carefully proof-read (twice) by NMS staff. Each year, NMS contacts a significant number of Training Directors to ensure that their Rank Order Lists accurately reflect their preferences.

3. Once all rankings have been successfully entered and proofed, NMS performs a number of integrity checks on this data. These checks allow them to identify potential inconsistencies in rankings between lists submitted by applicants and those submitted by programs (e.g., applicants ranking the wrong program at a site, programs ranking the wrong applicant). They are able to catch some (but not all) errors made by sites and applicants, and it does take a significant amount of time to reach these participants to follow-up, verify, and correct these mistakes. Training Directors and applicants are generally busy and can be very difficult to reach (if you receive a call or e-mail from NMS in the coming days, PLEASE RESPOND IMMEDIATELY).

4. Once the Match has been run, another set of integrity checks are conducted by the NMS staff to ensure that the Match has been processed correctly, and that every applicant and every training program has received the best possible match.

5. Finally, the results must be prepared for distribution via the various methods available (e-mail, web, and fax).

This is only a partial list of NMS' activities during this period. And, they are able to do all of this in an amount of time that is equal to or less than that of other matching programs of comparable (or even smaller) size in other professions.

This is the eleventh year that NMS has conducted the APPIC Match, and we continue to be impressed with their thoroughness, attention to detail, and commitment to accuracy. While the next few weeks may require what seems like an extraordinary amount of patience, we hope that you can appreciate the importance of allowing NMS the time to get the job done accurately.

Thanks for your patience and understanding.
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The "complex rankings" makes me wonder, but I think that is just the cynic in me.

 

[orthogonal]

I am also curious as to what 'complex rankings' means...anyone have a clue?

I know that some sites may have a language requirement, others put limits on how many students they take from a particular program, but it seems to me that each of these issues could be solved through having a unique match code or through the match process itself. I'm still confused as to why the site would have to submit their rankings on paper....

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

From what I recall it has something to do with sites that have multiple ranking #'s.....though I'm not sure there was ever a clear "answer" as to what they meant by the term.

 

[psychmama]

Luckily, I have something to occupy me while I wait. I'm going to a conference in Chicago (AGPA) the week of 2/16- 2/20.

Of course, i also have my dissertation to keep me busy between now and Match Day. Now, if I could only motivate myself to work on it. ...

 

[orthogonal]

I have my dissertation to throw myself into as well. It still doesn't seem to make the time fly any faster.

 

[in8joy]

Oh man - two more weeks! I don't think I can take it. Oh, and thanks to those of you reminding me how little work I've done on my dissertation

Sigh. I cannot wait until all this is over.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

The last week went pretty quickly, so that is a good start. I think my biggest challenge is trying to make the most of my time in the next 6 months. Spring cleaning and all of that jazz.

 

[psychmama]

Here's one to make you smile:

MSW friend: So, have you decided which internship to accept yet?

Me: Well, it actually doesn't work that way. We have a match day, where we find out if we've been matched to a site. Not everyone matches though.

MSW friend: That's terrible! You mean after all you've been through you might not get an internship?

Me: Well, I'll probably get something, but it might not be accredited.

MSW: 5-6 years and you don't even know if you'll get an accredited internship? That's just nuts!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

The hoops don't end at internship, as people pursuing formalized post-docs will have to continue the "interview dance", though from what I've heard they aren't as strict as the pre-doc internship.

--

I have stopped talking to my extended family about the internship process, as it is more stress-inducing having to explain the process over and over, and then having to explain that even good candidates don't get spots. It is a bit frustrating to know that I turned down a Top 3 MBA program where firms fight for graduates, to take twice as long and then be faced with selling myself for $20-$25k/yr. Blah.

 

[ctpsychology]

I hear you sister! This week is draggggging! GOOD LUCK!

 

[Cosmo75]

I have stopped talking to my extended family about the internship process, as it is more stress-inducing having to explain the process over and over, and then having to explain that even good candidates don't get spots. It is a bit frustrating to know that I turned down a Top 3 MBA program where firms fight for graduates, to take twice as long and then be faced with selling myself for $20-$25k/yr. Blah.

Hey...at least you actually get PAID on internship

I told my parents how much my pay will be for my post-doc. They were like "so when do you actually make what you made before you quit your IT career?" They seem to get why I walked away from my old job, but it still stings sometimes.

 

[psybee]

Luckily, I have something to occupy me while I wait. I'm going to a conference in Chicago (AGPA) the week of 2/16- 2/20.

Of course, i also have my dissertation to keep me busy between now and Match Day. Now, if I could only motivate myself to work on it. ...

Enjoy Chicago! have a cocktail at the Violet Hour, the Signature room @ the Hancock, or see a set at the Green Mill for some great distractions.

I'm not near where y'all are in the process (just started my program) but I'm learning so much from everyone on this board. Thanks so much!

 

[kedmonkey]

It is a bit frustrating to know that I turned down a Top 3 MBA program where firms fight for graduates, to take twice as long and then be faced with selling myself for $20-$25k/yr. Blah.[/quote]


Just think... if you had done an MBA you might be having trouble finding a job or being laid off right now. At least bad economy doesn't negatively effect the numbers of people who need help... we might get paid worse but there will always be jobs.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Just think... if you had done an MBA you might be having trouble finding a job or being laid off right now. At least bad economy doesn't negatively effect the numbers of people who need help... we might get paid worse but there will always be jobs.

That is true....though I'd have another few hundred grant to play with. In the end I know I made the right choice, it just stinks being broke and having to bend over backwards to make less than minimum wage.

In other news...9 days!!

 

[psychmama]

9 days will be a very long 9 days I'm afraid. I will actually be at a conference in Chicago on Friday when we get the initial news. I sure hope I match somewhere, or else it will be a very depressing plan ride home.

 

[cmuhooligan]

One week to go! I've found it a bit difficult to keep myself busy, although I am looking forward to next weekend, as it's Mardi Gras in St. Louis, so either way I'll have a good reason to go (celebration or drowning my sorrows!)