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[justdoingmybesttogetin]

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[battie]

@pinkpuppy9 had originally been interested in wildlife/zoo med. I believe they recently were able to get back into it now several years after being in SA. Another person in their class did a *bunch* of hospital hopping as well to finally get into zoo med.

 

[battie]

Thanks! Maybe we’ll find out from them if they awaken and stumble upon this!

Yeah, they come on here pretty sparingly these days.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I came into veterinary school wanting to do either exotics/zoo or research. Halfway through I fell in love with first clinical pathology, and then anatomic (neither of which I didn't even know was a specialty when I matriculated - har har the irony). Honestly it was finding the/being exposed to the "new" that was the biggest part of moving me away from my initial trajectory. Combine that with learning more and more about how competitive and low-paying exotics work was, it was an easy choice. Similar to how I would have LOVED to be a literature major or something of that sort in college....but I also knew that following that career path was dicey as hell. So I went with my second love, science. I still love reading and discussing everything, but I keep it as a hobby.

I know it sounds a little bit womp-womp and contrary to the whole follow your dreams phenom, but think about it like this. What are your dreams? And no, no, not your career dreams - what are your dreams for LIFE? Because career is only one part of life. Do you dream of lots of traveling and exploring the world? Do you dream of having a family of some sort soon? Do you dream of being able to afford a nice home with land for a hobby farm? Etc etc. What are your LIFE goals and wants and desires? Think about yourself at 30. 40, 50, 60+ years old - what would you like to have experienced by then, outside of your job? Then, you build your career around that, and sometimes that means making economic choices for things that may not be the perfect job for you, but something you still like enough to do it every day.

Me? I'm so glad I chose the path (no pun intended) that I did. I'm satisfied with my work, and have solid income. Honestly, wanting to do exotics/wildlife/zoo seems like a faraway memory lol. This not not to dogpile onto how hard exotics is or say it's a bad field to go into - its just really rough and competitive and every person going on the route really needs to ask themselves how sacrificial they are comfortable being with all the other things in their life.

My other advice is don't box yourself in. You're going to be exposed to a lot of paths in school and you may well discover a plethora of fields you'd be interested in getting into.

 

[allygator13]

I came into veterinary school wanting to do either exotics/zoo or research. Halfway through I fell in love with first clinical pathology, and then anatomic (neither of which I didn't even know was a specialty when I matriculated - har har the irony). Honestly it was finding the/being exposed to the "new" that was the biggest part of moving me away from my initial trajectory. Combine that with learning more and more about how competitive and low-paying exotics work was, it was an easy choice. Similar to how I would have LOVED to be a literature major or something of that sort in college....but I also knew that following that career path was dicey as hell. So I went with my second love, science. I still love reading and discussing everything, but I keep it as a hobby.

I know it sounds a little bit womp-womp and contrary to the whole follow your dreams phenom, but think about it like this. What are your dreams? And no, no, not your career dreams - what are your dreams for LIFE? Because career is only one part of life. Do you dream of lots of traveling and exploring the world? Do you dream of having a family of some sort soon? Do you dream of being able to afford a nice home with land for a hobby farm? Etc etc. What are your LIFE goals and wants and desires? Think about yourself at 30. 40, 50, 60+ years old - what would you like to have experienced by then, outside of your job? Then, you build your career around that, and sometimes that means making economic choices for things that may not be the perfect job for you, but something you still like enough to do it every day.

Me? I'm so glad I chose the path (no pun intended) that I did. I'm satisfied with my work, and have solid income. Honestly, wanting to do exotics/wildlife/zoo seems like a faraway memory lol. This not not to dogpile onto how hard exotics is or say it's a bad field to go into - its just really rough and competitive and every person going on the route really needs to ask themselves how sacrificial they are comfortable being with all the other things in their life.

My other advice is don't box yourself in. You're going to be exposed to a lot of paths in school and you may well discover a plethora of fields you'd be interested in getting into.

I have a somewhat similar story. Came into vet school thinking zoo (specifically big cats) or small animal surgery. Very early on I met with a zoo specialist who asked me why I wanted to do zoo medicine? And my answer of "because I love big cats" wasn't good enough for her, so she turned me off of the field (for the best). Then I realized radiology was a specialty (similar to @WhtsThFrequency I didn't know this prior to getting into vet school) and ran with it and haven't looked back. What's cool about radiology is you still see all the species! You just may be seeing them from the comfort of your home and behind a screen. However, if you are interested in doing exotics imaging, those opportunities are definitely there. It's kind of similar to the zoo field in general where you may have to prove yourself and build trust with local zoos, but there are radiologists that go out to zoos and aquariums to perform ultrasounds or other imaging on their animals. We've had some pretty cool experiences during my residency too; I've ultrasounded a lemur, a bear, an iguana, some fish, multiple snakes, bearded dragons, ferrets, rabbits, birds, etc., and we've CT'ed a lion and tons of other exotics over the last 3 years that I've been here.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

True that. Some specialties definitely still give you exposure to exotics. I’ve done necropsies on tons of exotics (birds of prey and pet birds too, lots of reptiles, fish, pocket pets, exotic hoofstock, several big cats, a variety of wildlife, even my favorite animal the binturong!!) and even get biopsies from exotics sometimes. I definitely had to know a chunk or two of exotics/wildlife/zoo pathology for boards. Probabaly not quite the type of interaction with exotics that the OP would want 🤣 but a fascinating interaction nonetheless!

And hey, being an SA vet that sees exotics on the side is also totally doable. You don’t even have to be a specialist really. Zoo and wildlife are probly another matter though.

I think a ton of people initially want to do zoo etc because it’s sexy and we are fascinated by unusual animals since childhood. I mean, I sure was. I still am. But yeah reality does hit eventually about what a tough field is it, and just finding the animals amazing and cool isn’t enough to keep you afloat there.

 

[battie]

And hey, being an SA vet that sees exotics on the side is also totally doable. You don’t even have to be a specialist really

Paging Dr. @SportPonies

 

[Trilt]

With the big ole disclaimer that seeing exotics as a SA vet - so not getting the clients who are willing to commit to see an exotics vet - can be emotionally exhausting. I saw every exotic who entered the hospital for my GP while I worked there full time for four years, and then actually still consult with the other docs a couple years later.

The majority of cases had owners unwilling to do diagnostics, and most of them had directly or indirectly contributed to the illness with inappropriate diet, husbandry, attempted home treatment, etc. The appointments also generally take more time and make less income than a dog/cat in those slots, which wasn't ever a concern for my situation, but can be a problem in some employment scenarios.

I had some awesome exotics owners who I miss, especially ferret and guinea pig people. But I also saw so, so much suffering and owners who just didn't know, care, or most often something in between. In school I definitely underestimated how much that would bug me.

 

[allygator13]

Thanks for sharing this! As a radiologist, do you work through an academic institution or as a private practice?

I'm currently at an academic institution for residency. Radiologists who do exotics post-residency can be in either academia or private practice. For example, one of our faculty here is very into exotics and he consults with our university's exotics department often and also travels to the local zoos and aquariums. But I also know that the radiologists who work out of a private practice near DC will sometimes go to the National Zoo to do imaging for them. So it all depends!

 

[SportPonies]

The majority of cases had owners unwilling to do diagnostics, and most of them had directly or indirectly contributed to the illness with inappropriate diet, husbandry, attempted home treatment, etc. The appointments also generally take more time and make less income than a dog/cat in those slots, which wasn't ever a concern for my situation, but can be a problem in some employment scenarios.

this, to a T.
I see the vast majority of exotics cases at my hospital. One other doctor will see the occasional GP or rabbit. My exotics cases have poor ROI compared to dog/cat appointments, both because they generally don't get the "money making" things like vaccines and also because I see them less often so I'm less efficient and looking things up more often (medication dosing, diagnostics, etc).

I still like doing them because it gives me a break in my day and there are almost no other local vets who will see exotics. But I also agree they're taxing, between owners and my increased brain efforts.

I was extremely happy on my exotics rotation in school, and I loved all the wildlife work I did. Small animal GP offers me a good quality of life with better income than I expected (so far) so I can't complain too much. Yes, I do miss diving deep into the special aspects of exotics. But I'm lucky I'm able to provide care for so many pets that otherwise may never see a vet because no one else is able to see them!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

when you say exotics do you also mean gp? or just zoo? guess I didn't realize exotics GP was as bad as zoo med. what is your work life like as a pathologist? and did you have to match somewhere?

I didn't have a full idea of it at the time, it was more of a "something not just cats and dogs" type of interest. Which hey, ended up working out. I never ever ever ever wanted to do anything GP or client-heavy. I am great at talking to clients, but it's also intensely draining for me. Teaching is perfect because I can put on my Dr. performance hat and then retreat/recover, and most of my interactions are with people in medicine/colleagues/students - much less so the general public. I have a ton of respect for GPs, no way could I do what they do. Absolute ballers. I would go home crying every day if I had to deal with what they deal with.

I absolutely love my specialty. Work life balance is great (most of the time). Of course, that's partly because I'm in academia which is very flexible as opposed to industry. I'm in a 75% teaching, 25% clinical/research position.

Pathology residencies in general don't go through the match - it is individual applications to each program you want to try to get a spot in. You don't need a rotating internship for anatomic (although for clinical pathology they do like to see that) - however, you are generally expected to "make up" for that by having a lot of pathology-related experience - externships, jobs, extra rotations, electives, etc - at the time of application and it's pretty damn competitive.

 

[runningwithriley]

I didn't have a full idea of it at the time, it was more of a "something not just cats and dogs" type of interest. Which hey, ended up working out. I never ever ever ever wanted to do anything GP or client-heavy. I am great at talking to clients, but it's also intensely draining for me. Teaching is perfect because I can put on my Dr. performance hat and then retreat/recover, and most of my interactions are with people in medicine/colleagues/students - much less so the general public. I have a ton of respect for GPs, no way could I do what they do. Absolute ballers. I would go home crying every day if I had to deal with what they deal with.

I absolutely love my specialty. Work life balance is great (most of the time). Of course, that's partly because I'm in academia which is very flexible as opposed to industry. I'm in a 75% teaching, 25% clinical/research position.

Pathology residencies in general don't go through the match - it is individual applications to each program you want to try to get a spot in. You don't need a rotating internship for anatomic (although for clinical pathology they do like to see that) - however, you are generally expected to "make up" for that by having a lot of pathology-related experience - externships, jobs, extra rotations, electives, etc - at the time of application and it's pretty damn competitive.

How long do you have to practice for before you can teach? Thanks so much!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

How long do you have to practice for before you can teach? Thanks so much!

No practice requirement (for me), but I did need to also do a PhD (still pretty common if you want to be a DVM professor in anything other than clinical track, and especially in some specialties like pathology, which I think it kind of stupid but that's a whole 'nother argument).

Now this varies a lot by school, but in general, professors can be in different "tracks" - e.g. tenure track vs clinical track. Clinical track is what it sounds like - most of your time is doing clinical work with fourth years and you may also teach other years on the side. PhD's are not as necessary or common here for these positions, and previous practice experience is looked at as desireable, but be aware that academia pays pretty meh compared to what you could be making at a good private practice. But, the benefits are awesome - for example I get a 8.5% match on my retirement contribution, and the health insurance is baller. Tenure track and collegiate track professors often have a higher research and scholastic component, and those positions like to also see a research degree such as PhD on top of your DVM and residency. Again this varies a lot by school, but if you are interested in academia, the percentage breakdown/effort of your position and its track will determine what other experience you will need. Anatomic pathology in general is still unfortunately a bit stuck in the dark ages and even if you are primarily clinical, they want to see that PhD (although this appears to be thankfully changing with time)

So for me, it was 4 years undergrad, 4 years DVM, 3 years pathology residency, and 5 years PhD, and then big girl job. The PhD was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life academically. Harder than vet school. Harder than residency. No question. Which is why when I hear people say oh man I don't think I can hack it in vet school, should I do a PhD instead....I ask them to really, really think about it hard, hah.

 

[runningwithriley]

No practice requirement (for me), but I did need to also do a PhD (still pretty common if you want to be a DVM professor in anything other than clinical track, and especially in some specialties like pathology, which I think it kind of stupid but that's a whole 'nother argument).

Now this varies a lot by school, but in general, professors can be in different "tracks" - e.g. tenure track vs clinical track. Clinical track is what it sounds like - most of your time is doing clinical work with fourth years and you may also teach other years on the side. PhD's are not as necessary or common here for these positions, and previous practice experience is looked at as desireable, but be aware that academia pays pretty meh compared to what you could be making at a good private practice. But, the benefits are awesome - for example I get a 8.5% match on my retirement contribution, and the health insurance is baller. Tenure track and collegiate track professors often have a higher research and scholastic component, and those positions like to also see a research degree such as PhD on top of your DVM and residency. Again this varies a lot by school, but if you are interested in academia, the percentage breakdown/effort of your position and its track will determine what other experience you will need. Anatomic pathology in general is still unfortunately a bit stuck in the dark ages and even if you are primarily clinical, they want to see that PhD (although this appears to be thankfully changing with time)

So for me, it was 4 years undergrad, 4 years DVM, 3 years pathology residency, and 5 years PhD, and then big girl job. The PhD was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life academically. Harder than vet school. Harder than residency. No question. Which is why when I hear people say oh man I don't think I can hack it in vet school, should I do a PhD instead....I ask them to really, really think about it hard, hah.

Ah- thank you. I am returning student. Definitely too old to do a PhD and Vet School. Thank you so much for your through response. I love the idea of teaching part time. With PhDs the difficulty seems to be very much dependent on what you get your PhD and possibly where you study. I have friends who seemed to do a minimum amount to work and successfully completed their PhD. Sorry to hear yours was so difficult.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Ah- thank you. I am returning student. Definitely too old to do a PhD and Vet School. Thank you so much for your through response. I love the idea of teaching part time. With PhDs the difficulty seems to be very much dependent on what you get your PhD and possibly where you study. I have friends who seemed to do a minimum amount to work and successfully completed their PhD. Sorry to hear yours was so difficult.

Depends on your specialty though, like I said. We have clinical assistant/associate professors in specialties other than pathology who don't have PhDs. Path just has historically had a hard-on for the PhD.

Definitly with regards to the bolded. Subject matter, funding, and mentor involvement are all massive variables. And completion of the PhD is one thing - completion of a PhD that is actually conducive to great career advancement is another.

Can someone finish a PhD doing the minimum amount of work and taking longer than average? Sure. But they are also likely also then producing the minumum amount of publications at the minimum quality (if they produce any publications at all), and therefore condemning themselves to endless postdocs and underpayment/severely hindered employability. Which begs the question why they even pursued one in the first place. Like building a boat cross an ocean, but making it out of duct tape and toothpicks. Sure, you successfully built a boat....but it ain't taking you anywhere.

PhDs aren't like vet school. You get your DVM, and you're pretty much equal to all the other DVMs (unless you are applying to residency, but let's just stick with generic DVM now). You are equally as employable as your colleagues on paper, if not close. "C = DVM" and all that. PhDs, however, are not equal at all in terms of employability/the student's future. Even in the same subject matter. Heck, even in the same lab. It depends highly on productivity, whether that is governed by the producer or the producer's environment.

I've just realized I have derailed this thread hard, heh. Apologies to OP.