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LovelyNutella

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LovelyNutella said:
contract non-renewal cz I could not get along with a few people there
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Just gonna throw this out there, you shouldn't approach your future applications by presenting your situation like that. Even if you 100% believe it to be true, the immediate reaction you will get is that you have no insight into your deficiencies.

Without getting into the individual details of your story, there are some general guidelines which you can probably find from threads from other residents who have been terminated/non-renewed. Even in the absence of any of the red flags you mentioned, a key point is going to be securing, at worst, a neutral letter from your PD which explains why you were let go, preferably in a way that portrays you as someone who could succeed at another program/different specialty/whatever. Without that letter, your job gets much harder.
 
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LovelyNutella said:
PD said he will make sure I do not make my way back to the clinical setting; but shortly after I was dismissed, both the PD and GME chair were dismissed.
New PD does not feel comfortable writing me a letter because he does not know even know what happened.
When other programs call, the new PD will just send the nasty documentation by old PD.., and say he does not know what happaend and he does not know me, but here is the documentation... from the former PD...
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Well, that's bad. It might be helpful if there is any other faculty from your old program who could shed some light on what happened with the old PD to discredit the bad letter. Lacking that, you're going to be in trouble unless you're applying from a more competitive specialty to a less competitive one.
 
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LovelyNutella said:
PD said he will make sure I do not make my way back to the clinical setting; but shortly after I was dismissed, both the PD and GME chair were dismissed.
New PD does not feel comfortable writing me a letter because he does not know even know what happened.
When other programs call, the new PD will just send the nasty documentation by old PD.., and say he does not know what happaend and he does not know me, but here is the documentation... from the former PD...
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Who did you have trouble getting along with? Faculty, staff, fellow residents, or patients? Or some combination of the above?

Would you consider going into a non-clinical specialty?
 
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LovelyNutella said:
They would not even support me for pathology/radiology. I did not get along with two senior residents. I worked there only for 6 months. Not enough time to have a conflict with more than two people
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If you want to have the best chance at getting advice, you should go ahead and come clean with what exactly happened. No one lets a resident go because of conflict with two senior residents. There is something more that is going on here.
 
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LovelyNutella said:
That is why they gave me a settlement package in exchange of releasing the legal liability.
I signed it in the hope that the PD may write me a neutral letter if I just do what he tells me to do.., it was a bad idea.
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

don't ever sign anything without getting what you want first!!!!
 
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LovelyNutella said:
PD said he will write me a letter at the time, but never gave me the letter... possibly because he lost his job, shortly after I left.
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Do you have at least a year of training under your belt? Or was this your intern year? Could try to go that route.
 
LovelyNutella said:
Yes, I have one year of training. But, the residency would not provide the training record necessary to get the license in Puerto Rico/Florida/prison/rehab/research institutions. I called, emailed, and left voice mails explaining, I really need them to send the training record to the state license so that I could at least have a job to pay my bills.., but they would not send the training record on my behalf.
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What?? Are they even allowed to do that? Might not be a bad idea to see a lawyer but obviously finances are a concern..
 
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LovelyNutella said:
PD said he will write me a letter at the time, but never gave me the letter... possibly because he lost his job, shortly after I left.


Oh my god, and lied to me?! All this time, I thought maybe he was not able to keep his promise because he was let go ...


Yes, I have one year of training. But, the residency would not provide the training record necessary to get the license in Puerto Rico/Florida/prison/rehab/research institutions. I called, emailed, and left voice mails explaining, I really need them to send the training record to the state license so that I could at least have a job to pay my bills.., but they would not send the training record on my behalf.
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Do what you should have done a long time ago—get a lawyer. If you got a year of credit, getting them to send your record to a state medical board should be easy. The hard part will be answering the questions asking about being dismissed, but worry about that later.
 
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One of the most damning letters of rec I read about an resident whose contract was not extended was from their PD. It read: Dr. X was a resident here from 2017-2018, and completed X, Y, Z rotations. If you have any questions, you can contact me.

Regards.

I didn't bother to contact. That said everything I needed to know. The applicant explained they got on an attendings bad side.

Sounds like your letter will be worse than that. Take the above advice and get a lawyer to get proof of your one year so you can at least do some medically related work.
 
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LovelyNutella said:
I really wish if it doesn't. These residents complained to the PD; nothing happened; so, they repeatedly wrote to the HR (about how they sometimes felt questioned and challenged). HR then determined I need to leave because the amount of complaints from the two individuals. They claimed they missed critical lab values, made poor medical decisions because I made them feel uncomfortable (However, when they made the mistakes, I was not even around. I was on 1st floor; they were on 5th floor). :( That is when the PD took the action.
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Yeah...that’s not how it happens...I suspect you are leaving a Lot of things out.
 
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LovelyNutella said:
I really wish if it doesn't. These residents complained to the PD; nothing happened; so, they repeatedly wrote to the HR (about how they sometimes felt questioned and challenged). HR then determined I need to leave because the amount of complaints from the two individuals. They claimed they missed critical lab values, made poor medical decisions because I made them feel uncomfortable (However, when they made the mistakes, I was not even around. I was on 1st floor; they were on 5th floor). :( That is when the PD took the action.
I begged them to stop reporting me, I told them I can lose my job if they continue to complain. I asked them what I can change for them to feel comfortable around me. They yelled at me "We are not going to talk to you because you make us frustrated!!!" and stormed out of the room multiple times (loudly banging the door as they left)... I cried a few times, asking them to stop, but they kept bypassing the PD, directly going to the HR (without discussing anything with me at all). I kept apologizing, but it did not help at all.
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There is likely some lack of self-awareness here. It would be a one in a million situation for two seniors to randomly start hating a completely pleasant and competent intern, pretend they are now stupid and unable to read lab values if the intern is around, and then lie about situations when you could prove you weren't even around.

Something isn't adding up. I've seen pleasant interns get away with some tomfoolery and incompetence. I've also seen some very competent people get away with some pretty poor personal skills. Both with usually minor slaps on the wrist or just ignoring it because a lot of people hate confrontation.

There is almost no chance this came up with no contribution from you even if the program eventually went heavy handed. If I was asked to evaluate a resident applying in, this story would be an immediate no from me. Not because you got fired but because you show no believable understanding of why and without that I couldn't know you wouldn't repeat.
 
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LovelyNutella said:
The two seniors made many accusations; they said I was visiting the patients at home (outside the work hour) to play with their babies and puppies. It must have frightened the HR. I really did not do it because I was sleep-deprived, had a lot of work to do.
There could have been other accusations I am not aware of.
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Visiting patient's families at home and playing with their babies? This story is getting more and more bizarre. And who bypasses the PD and goes to HR?
 
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LovelyNutella said:
Thank you very much for your honest opinion. I already reached out multiple times to the PD and coordinator, asking them to help me to gain some insight to improve. However, the PD said "No, it is not what you did. It is who you are. These things don't improve. I will make sure you don't make your way back to clinical setting."
I tried multiple therapist in my attempts to gain some insight; but the therapists only have a limited information (from me, nothing from the other side).
I really wish if there is a way I could at least be informed of the reason I was let go.
I would feel much better if I know what mistakes I made; it would help me to make plans for improvement.
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is this the first time you've ever had significant personal conflict?
 
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LovelyNutella said:
PD did not take it serisouly, because he knew me. But HR took it very seriously. They bypassed the PD because PD did not take actions based on the complaints. I scored in 90s percentile on ITE, prolific with publications, had excellent clinical evals.. so, PD did not believe the complaints from the seniors. However, when the HR got involved, PD was on the HR side... :( He changed after HR involvement


Thank you very much for your honest opinion. I already reached out multiple times to the PD and coordinator, asking them to help me to gain some insight to improve. However, the PD said "No, it is not what you did. It is who you are. These things don't improve. I will make sure you don't make your way back to clinical setting."
I tried multiple therapists in my attempts to gain some insight; but the therapists only have a limited information (from me, nothing from the other side).
I really wish if there is a way I could at least be informed of the reasons I was let go.
I would feel much better if I know what mistakes I made; it would help me to make plans for improvement.
Several faculties had a few meetings with the PD, to find out the reasons (for my self-reflection and improvement) after my contract non-renewal. The faculties said the reason seems to my disclosure of medical condition to the program; and the seniors making the accusations on me. Without the medical condition, the faculties said the HR would not have believe these bizzare accusaions.
I have autism spectrum disorder, disclosed it to the PD at the beginning of the year because my therapist said this would help my PD to better understand my deficieneis, enable him to help me better
These two seniors .. were very upset because I reported them for sexual harrassment. I was asked to continue to work with them even after I reported them. I thought they would let it go, teach and help me to succeed in the program as my senior (guide, mentor, teacher)..., but it did not happen :( They knew about autism, and I think that might be why they made such bizzare accusations..
Why would I go to patient's houses after work to babysit for them.. after long hours of work as an intern
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dude ma'am.....it took you like 15 posts to get to major parts of the story and I still don't think we have it all. If you were harassed, I'm truly sorry. No one should go through that.

But because the info just isn't coming out at an appropriate pace and I still question your self awareness, I'm out. I sincerely wish you well.

Get a lawyer
 
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LovelyNutella said:
Other than these two, I never had anyone reporting me to the HR or the PD.., it was just a LOT of complaints from them
They even reported me to the HR if I went to get a cup of coffee during lunch conference (they said me getting a cup of coffee during conference was humiliating, disrespectful, and demoralizing)... there were many other residents who got a cup of coffee during the conference, but only I was repeatedly reported for it- so I could not even get a cup of coffee there... PD yelled at me at the office asking why did you get a cup of coffee?!?!?

I will be honest. I had a few crying spells, too- because I kept getting reported to HR by them for minor things like "leaving a phone on the work station, going to a bathroom for a minute... -during that time two texts came through, the senior reported that it was very disruptive," "her scrubs seemed tight,-- they said it was disruptive, inappropriate, and disrespectful- and negatively affected their education"
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I feel a bit ridiculous asking this question but do you feel like you are a genuinely nice person? A kind person? People are less likely to get into these sticky types of situations if they are liked as a person. You don't always have to be the smartest one in the room, as long as people like you, you can get by. I think there may be an underlying perception problem and I don't mean how people view you as an individual but, I mean how you perceive different social interactions. With that said, you would not be the first doctor to have issues with social interactions. Many have come before you.
 
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LovelyNutella said:
I really wish if this was trolling... I really do, but this truly happened in my life. It is very possible there is a part of story the PD or HR never informed me of. But, from my stand point, this is what happened. The seniors also accused that I refused to see the patients, refused to follow the orders.
.. I found out about the accusations and the baby accusation through a faculty member a few months after I was let go (He went to the PD in his attempt to reinstate me). Without the faculty member, I would never have know these allegations against me. I requested a due process, but PD said there is no due process because there is patient safety involved.
According to the faculty member, the seniors also complained I am impaired by autism so I can't make proper clinical decisions (?); he also complained I have a very low level of communication (he never even attempted to communicate with me, so I do not know how he determined my level of communication); and appeared anxious (I admit the anxiety, but it was because he was keep reporting me to the HR without discussing it with me, he escalated everything to the HR)
I felt that they used autism to strereotype me, and mispresent me as an incompetent individual. Several faculties and senior residents vouched for my clinical competency[, but the HR took the senior;s complaints. There was even a third party psychiatrist who cleared me for return to work shortly before they dismissed me. The letter stated "This resident is both mentally and emotionally fit to practice medicine safely."
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Yeah but you lost any kind of leverage going forward by signing that document prior to getting a neutral/positive LOR in hand. I don't know what else to say man, just have to keep moving forward. Try to obtain your training records and get your state license and practice somewhere. Won't be the best type of practice situation obviously but we're passed best situations at this point. I hate to say this but it would be extremely hard to get into another residency with no PD/chair letter (And your story you've presented us doesn't sound great either if you were to tell this to a future PD).
 
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LovelyNutella said:
These two seniors .. were very upset because I reported them for sexual harrassment. I was asked to continue to work with them even after I reported them. I thought they would let it go, teach and help me to succeed in the program as my senior (guide, mentor, teacher)..., but it did not happen :(
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Why did it take so long to drop this juicy piece of information?

Did you report them to HR for sexual harassment and then they retaliated with all of this stuff? Or did you lodge the complaint after?

I know HR is usually filled with idiots but they usually are fairly defensive with sexual harassment to shield the organization. It's surprising they would have you work with the people who harassed you and risk a lawsuit.

To be honest, your story could be true but it's so poorly worded that I can hardly understand what is going on after reading through everything. I don't think I'm the only one. If this is the best you can organize your thoughts even when you have all the time in the world, there are problems.
 
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A lot of what you're saying doesn't make logical sense. Why would you getting coffee be demoralizing? It wouldn't. It wasn't the coffee. There was something else you were doing that was demoralizing, but your lack of insight convinces you it's the coffee.

Your first post stated "no disciplinary action," then about 4 posts by you later, you reveal that you had a fitness for duty report by a psychiatrist. That's disciplinary action.

You said your PD told you he'd make sure you're never a practicing clinician again, but you also say the PD didn't believe the accusations against you. It takes a lot to go from believing in you to making sure you never practice medicine.

I don't think you're being intentionally vague. I think you legitimately have no idea what you did wrong, but I also suspect it isn't what you think it is.

You need a lawyer if you need concrete answers.
 
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LovelyNutella said:
Program has more legal resource and staying power. It would be like hitting a rock with a quail egg.
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As interesting as all of the juicy details are in a macabre kind of way, it still doesn't change the underlying course of action that you need to take. Wondering what their underlying motivation was, imagining how they could have acted differently, wishing you hadn't signed the paper... is beside the point now.

You will need your training record in order to either pursue further training or get a license. If the program is ignoring your requests, your recourse is to get a lawyer. While hypothetically they have more legal resources and could wait you out, it's reasonably likely that they'll determine it's much easier to just release your records than to fight over something so trivial. Especially since they are in fact required to give it to you.

That's step 1. Focus on that, and once you can secure that, then you can worry about whether you can spin a story that can get you back into residency vs. if you just need to go get your license and figure out how to practice with what you've got.
 
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LovelyNutella said:
PD said he will make sure I do not make my way back to the clinical setting; but shortly after I was dismissed, both the PD and GME chair were dismissed.
New PD does not feel comfortable writing me a letter because he does not know even know what happened.
When other programs call, the new PD will just send the nasty documentation by old PD.., and say he does not know what happaend and he does not know me, but here is the documentation... from the former PD...
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can you give some elaboration on what happened?
 
This sounds bizarre. Also the verbiage in your posts makes it sound as if you perhaps are a foreign resident - not sure if you are trolling or what. The whole "playing with patients' puppies at home" really made it not believable for me.
 
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Piebaldi said:
This sounds bizarre. Also the verbiage in your posts makes it sound as if you perhaps are a foreign resident - not sure if you are trolling or what. The whole "playing with patients' puppies at home" really made it not believable for me.
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seriously. I love animals but when I was an intern (or since for that matter), this would be the last thing on my mind. It just would never happen. And if someone was making up something to be malicious, I would think they could do much better than ‘they we’re playing with pt’s puppies’.
 
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LovelyNutella said:
I really wish they reacted in the way you did. That would have saved my career. They never brought this up to me. Without the faculty, I would never have been made awareness of this.
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Have you at any time ever been in a patient’s home or met with one off of your employer’s property ?

Have you called a lawyer?
 
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LovelyNutella said:
I really wish they reacted in the way you did. That would have saved my career. They never brought this up to me. Without the faculty, I would never have been made awareness of this.
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But that's a ridiculous statement i'm sorry. I want to give everyone the benefit of the doubt without a doubt. But if you are trolling and using up people's time for whatever reason - people who are trying to do well and provide advice, please stop.
This otherwise becomes the equivalent of those idiots who lick the ice cream at Walmart bc it's "funny."
 
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The details in this thread are thin, so it's impossible to tell how you ended up in this situation. However, my guess is that it matters less what you actually did, and more on how you did it.

You mentioned autism in your post -- the classic problem is that you may have great difficulty assessing others emotions, and displaying emotions to others. If you don't read others emotions well, you often won't recognize when a situation / conversation is spiraling out of control. If you don't exhibit emotions well, others will interpret that as "not caring". All of this fits with others finding you frustrating to work with. People often give you feedback about this, but it's uncomfortable and sometimes subtle -- and then you don't pick that up either.

Ultimately you end up isolating / irritating everyone. A small number of people (who have their own problems) don't manage it well and end up complaining bitterly. From your vantage, only a few people complained and it seems unfair. In reality, lots of other people had similar experiences but are just more professional about how they have managed it.
 
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Mass Effect said:
?
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As in, this being a hoax. Same way the ice cream lickers thought a hoax would be funny, or people who cough on others and tell them they have corona virus. Hoaxers thinking it's funny.
 
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Not sure why I've been tagged or what to offer. Seems like a lot of posts have been deleted. So I don't know how to respond except to disjointed excerpts quoted by others.

To repeat a word, lawyer lawyer lawyer.

I can tell you this right now about being a resident in trouble, a few truisms no matter how at fault/innocent you are.

There's a game of telephone going on. Once you get the target on your back and go under the microscope, a couple things happen which include ridiculous things that actually happen (like getting coffee) being blown out of proportion, as well as other seemingly completely fictional things being made up. Perhaps a comment about how would you like to help a patient and a comment on its tails about how much you like dogs, plus a few rounds of telephone turn into something else.

It's fascinating how doctors will weave one or more facts into a given picture, and it's where what feel like twists can happen. Like they've developed a theory out of nowhere that you suck, and now everything is being warped to support what they erroneously and unfairly want to believe about you.

That's all very frustrating. No matter for what reason you're in trouble, it feels enormously unfair to feel like you're going down for shyte you didn't even do. We all would rather go down for crimes we actually did commit, not some ridiculous misunderstandings.

Here's the kicker. It's tempting and likely some cognitive fallacy to think that if somehow you could fix the record on these points, it would make a difference. That they're not getting these things right about you, and that it's evidence that their thinking is so unfair about you.

I'm willing to believe you're not a bad person and likely could be trained to be a competent doctor. The current training system isn't well set up to deal with certain challenges. I'm also willing to bet you did indeed present some of those challenges. And while they may have been incorrect about their ability to handle them, or unwilling to do so, still, there were serious problems with your performance.

You're not going to impress any PD now, but the closest you could come would be to present as though you truly understand this about yourself.

In any case, as others have said, these lapses in where it seems like they're trying to justify getting rid of you, sadly they're not coming from a place that has no basis, even if it seems the supporting points are flawed.

For others reading this, I'll say again likeability and honesty are the most important things about being a trainee. Followed by getting lawyer if that fails.

I haven't seen anyone in this thread say, and I'm not an expert, about how to leverage a license and going into practice, as a way to build yourself up to a successful reapplication to residency. I imagine it's possible.

The good news with a license is that you can actually get a genuinely good job (even if you feel it doesn't compare to what you could have had), you can practice clinical medicine even if that is your great love, and as such might have an actual shot at another residency slot one day.

Nothing can save you from a damning former PD's words. However, one might hope that years of good practice, references, and networking might get you another chance. In the meantime life goes on and money can be earned. That's better than many get.

Lastly, you can get an attorney to get them to cough up this documentation, that is for sure. Get an attorney that specializes in employment law. This is their bread and butter.

TLDR
It's not about the coffee, it never is. Their being wrong on so many points, while it may represent an attitude that in unfair on some fronts, does not mean there are not serious problems with your performance. Communication on all the fronts of resident training can be greatly lacking. Likeability, honestly, working hard, documentation documentation lawyer lawyer lawyer is the order of the day for a resident. Lawyer can get your documents, go rebuild your career with a fresh license in hand. Good luck.
 
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LovelyNutella said:
How do I avoid getting the target on my back? I wanted to keep a low profile, but the senior residents repeatedly complained to the attending faculty, PD, and HR without discussing their concerns with me. I told them I can lose my job if they continue to report me, explained I will work very hard to make whatever changes necessary, I asked them to teach, guide, and mentor me, but they (the two guys I previously reported for sexual harassment) said it is not their job to help me. I wanted to stay under the radar, but they kept throwing me into the hot water.
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In order:
1. Lawyer. Stop posting till you have a lawyer
2. I am truly sorry if you were harassed. Not acceptable.
3. Lawyer again, talk to them about 2
4. There are usually rules about how to fire someone
5. Ask your lawyer about those rules in 4
6. If you report someone for sexual harassment, they now hate you. Doesn’t make it legal or ok but you do need to understand how humans work. Either they think they harassed you and now hate you for trying to punish them...or they don’t think they harassed you at all now hate you with a righteous indignation because they think you’re a liar.
7. Lawyer again. You probably want to try and explain 6 to us....explain it to your lawyer
8. Crayola is absolutely right about the magnifying glass with problem residents. I myself have to remind people that a junior resident in march shouldn’t be judged by july if they resolved july’s problem. You need to know this and accept it
9. You can discuss the injustice of 8 with your lawyer

To wrap up, this is now lawyer territory
 
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sb247 said:
There is likely some lack of self-awareness here. It would be a one in a million situation for two seniors to randomly start hating a completely pleasant and competent intern, pretend they are now stupid and unable to read lab values if the intern is around, and then lie about situations when you could prove you weren't even around.

Something isn't adding up. I've seen pleasant interns get away with some tomfoolery and incompetence. I've also seen some very competent people get away with some pretty poor personal skills. Both with usually minor slaps on the wrist or just ignoring it because a lot of people hate confrontation.

There is almost no chance this came up with no contribution from you even if the program eventually went heavy handed. If I was asked to evaluate a resident applying in, this story would be an immediate no from me. Not because you got fired but because you show no believable understanding of why and without that I couldn't know you wouldn't repeat.
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My trolldar is starting to go off, sb.
 
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