1000+ paid clinical hrs and 100+ NC volunteering hrs; do I need clinical volunteering experience?

[deleted941478]

Hello all,
Hoping to get some insight into volunteering. I have been a mentor for Big Brothers Big Sisters for 6 months now and I've put in 100+ extremely meaningful hours into it. I also work as a CNA at an Alzheimer's/Dementia home where I have gained more patient experience and have improved the lives of others more than any clinical volunteering position could offer.

That being said, I constantly see people saying that you need clinical volunteering for your application. I have ~30 volunteering hours at a hospital but I absolutely hate it; I do nothing more than clean up in the ER, give people directions, and stock cabinets. Given my other experiences, do I really need more time volunteering at a hospital?

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[Goro]

Nope.

Find a non-clinical venue for volunteering, and you'll be fine.

 

[Walter Raleigh]

@Goro: he already has a nonclinical avenue for volunteering in the form of Big Brothers Big Sisters.

 

[On_The_Way_Up]

100 hours isn’t very much. If you do have time get another 100 hours of NC volunteering.

 

[Catalystik]

100 hours isn’t very much. If you do have time get another 100 hours of NC volunteering.

I'd say 100 nonclinical hours isn't bad, it's more that they were acquired rapidly over six months (that looks like box checking) which concerns me.

 

[chemdoctor]

I'd say 100 nonclinical hours isn't bad, it's more that they were acquired rapudly over six months (that looks like box checking) which concerns me.

How long would it have to be to where it doesn't look like box checking? What if the applicant doesn't start freshman year?

 

[LizzyM]

I'd like to see 18 mos or 3 semesters of a non-clinical volunteering... e.g. start by the second semester of sophomore year if you are going to apply after junior year.

 

[chemdoctor]

I'd like to see 18 mos or 3 semesters of a non-clinical volunteering... e.g. start by the second semester of sophomore year if you are going to apply after junior year.

3 semesters is usually 12 months... so about a year? Or am I overthinking this

 

[doc05]

CNA at a dementia facility doesn’t exactly expose you to typical medical practice, you really need more varied exposure. If not for the adcoms sake, then for yours.

 

[chemdoctor]

3 semesters is usually 12 months... so about a year? Or am I overthinking this

Also would you say the same for clinical experience?

 

[OchemOficionado]

3 semesters is usually 12 months... so about a year? Or am I overthinking this

I don’t think she was counting Summer as it’s usually an optional semester.

 

[chemdoctor]

I don’t think she was counting Summer as it’s usually an optional semester.

Oh yeah... lol I’m stupid

 

[stairway2seven]

no, you don't have to have clinical volunteering. n=1 but I had ~500 non-clinical volunteer hours (none of which were remotely healthcare related) and 0 clinical volunteer hours and did just fine this cycle

You probably need more volunteering hours than you currently have. If you enjoy your experience at Big Brothers Big Sisters and find it to be meaningful, stay involved and try to develop a leadership position within the org.

I'd also recommend trying out other volunteer opportunities to diversify your experiences and potentially find something else you really enjoy. I dipped my feet in 6 different organizations but ended up 90% most of my time with the 2 that I found to be most meaningful.

 

[LizzyM]

no, you don't have to have clinical volunteering. n=1 but I had ~500 non-clinical volunteer hours (none of which were remotely healthcare related) and 0 clinical volunteer hours and did just fine this cycle

You probably need more volunteering hours than you currently have. If you enjoy your experience at Big Brothers Big Sisters and find it to be meaningful, stay involved and try to develop a leadership position within the org.

I'd also recommend trying out other volunteer opportunities to diversify your experiences and potentially find something else you really enjoy. I dipped my feet in 6 different organizations but ended up 90% most of my time with the 2 that I found to be most meaningful.

Did you have any clinical employment? Did you have any other exposure to patients? Having the whole picture is important, otherwise the message received is "you can get in without any clinical exposure" and that, I think, is very, very rare.

 

[stairway2seven]

Did you have any clinical employment? Did you have any other exposure to patients? Having the whole picture is important, otherwise the message received is "you can get in without any clinical exposure" and that, I think, is very, very rare.

You're right. I should have clarified that I had ~2500 hours clinical employment when I applied (EMT, ED scribe, neurosurg scribe).

It's extremely important to have clinical exposure when you apply but it seems to me that it doesn't have to be volunteer work. I actually feel that paid clinical work is generally more valuable because you're more likely to be acquire meaningful experiences where as clinical volunteer work can be the exact stuff OP mentioned (stocking cabinets).

 

[On_The_Way_Up]

I'd say 100 nonclinical hours isn't bad, it's more that they were acquired rapidly over six months (that looks like box checking) which concerns me.

Interesting. I’ve been told 100 hours is box checking. Guess it depends on the adcom and school.

 

[Catalystik]

Interesting. I’ve been told 100 hours is box checking. Guess it depends on the adcom and school.

Yep.

 

[Dr. Anonymouss]

I understand how it looks GREAT when an applicant has volunteering over a long period of time. It really shows an altruistic side to an applicant, but to say it looks any less great and that it is "box checking" based on a time constraint is absurd to me. Volunteering your free time away for no pay is still volunteering your free time away for no pay... In terms of long term volunteering, college students can have erratic schedules while also trying to balance working which doesn't not leave much time to volunteer. The second biggest issue that I would have is that identifying with an organization can be difficult. In order to volunteer over long periods of time, one must identify with the vision and mission of an organization. For example, although I believe serving at a food pantry is noble, I would rather serve for an organization that prevents poverty at it's core like education and tutoring. If you can't get behind why you are volunteering and truly love it, how can you expect someone to volunteer for a long time. It may take a long time to find an organization where you identify with the mission and vision and in your early 20's there are many pressing issues in one's life that doesn't leave volunteering as a main priority. At the end of the day, 99 percent of pre-medical students are box-checking and adcoms most likely know this. Sure we all want to help people (if we didn't then how could we go into this field), but the point I want to get at is that there are many factors that can prevent someone from volunteering their time away for long periods of time. In my opinion, I think 6 months is more than noble...

 

[RNtoMD87]

I'd like to see 18 mos or 3 semesters of a non-clinical volunteering... e.g. start by the second semester of sophomore year if you are going to apply after junior year.

Lizzy how many non clinical volunteer hours would you want to see from a non trad who is also working full time while going to school?


And I agree new year. I’ve had spurts of volunteering because that’s when I’ve had time. I did autopsies for like 7 months, because I was doing online RN to BSN while working full time and it was more flexible, but how that I’m going to uni physically taking premed courses, and working 48 hours a week in a mentally stressful job, it is much more difficult to also find time to volunteer.

 

[ciestar]

Interesting. I’ve been told 100 hours is box checking. Guess it depends on the adcom and school.

Schools that value service obviously value it more so longer, sustained volunteering is look more favorably.

 

[LizzyM]

Lizzy how many non clinical volunteer hours would you want to see from a non trad who is also working full time while going to school?


And I agree new year. I’ve had spurts of volunteering because that’s when I’ve had time. I did autopsies for like 7 months, because I was doing online RN to BSN while working full time and it was more flexible, but how that I’m going to uni physically taking premed courses, and working 48 hours a week in a mentally stressful job, it is much more difficult to also find time to volunteer.

If you can count all of the time since you graduated HS, how many hours do you have? If you are going into medicine in part because you like to help people, what evidence can you provide that you have spent some of your free time helping people? How much I need to see to be convinced is not going to be straight forward when the applicant is non-trad.

 

[RNtoMD87]

If you can count all of the time since you graduated HS, how many hours do you have? If you are going into medicine in part because you like to help people, what evidence can you provide that you have spent some of your free time helping people? How much I need to see to be convinced is not going to be straight forward when the applicant is non-trad.

Well, as soon as I got out of high school I went into the army, as soon as I got out I went into nursing, and worked 6-12s for a year until my new job, and soon after that I started college full time for my BSN first and now premed. The only volunteer work I have done so far was at the coroners office which I have about 30-35 hours somewhere, and I taught diabetes prevention education at the Y (but it only met for an hour each week so my hours are like 8). I plan to do more volunteer work once my work contract is up and I can go to less than full time hours, but it is VERY hard to find time when you work minimum 38-39 hours a week, and go to school full time. I am already feeling swamped but I’m just pushing on.

 

[907914]

Well, as soon as I got out of high school I went into the army, as soon as I got out I went into nursing, and worked 6-12s for a year until my new job, and soon after that I started college full time for my BSN first and now premed. The only volunteer work I have done so far was at the coroners office which I have about 30-35 hours somewhere, and I taught diabetes prevention education at the Y (but it only met for an hour each week so my hours are like 8). I plan to do more volunteer work once my work contract is up and I can go to less than full time hours, but it is VERY hard to find time when you work minimum 38-39 hours a week, and go to school full time. I am already feeling swamped but I’m just pushing on.

I am including hints to the fact that I had the reserves and a child and work all with school full time to account for why my volunteering is ‘sub par.’ Don’t know if it will work/justify anything, but maybe try that.

 

[LizzyM]

Well, as soon as I got out of high school I went into the army, as soon as I got out I went into nursing, and worked 6-12s for a year until my new job, and soon after that I started college full time for my BSN first and now premed. The only volunteer work I have done so far was at the coroners office which I have about 30-35 hours somewhere, and I taught diabetes prevention education at the Y (but it only met for an hour each week so my hours are like 8). I plan to do more volunteer work once my work contract is up and I can go to less than full time hours, but it is VERY hard to find time when you work minimum 38-39 hours a week, and go to school full time. I am already feeling swamped but I’m just pushing on.

Being a veteran might count for something... that may be considered the ultimate in "volunteering".

 

[907914]

Being a veteran might count for something... that may be considered the ultimate in "volunteering".

Will an applicant with little to no volunteering but concurrent military service still look favorable? Or even if military service was several years before application?

 

[LizzyM]

Will an applicant with little to no volunteering but concurrent military service still look favorable? Or even if military service was several years before application?

An application is going to be looked at holistically... what have you been doing since HS graduation and does it reflect your values? If you say that you value service to those in need but haven't acted on values, it won't go over well... If your story is different, then it should hang together and show that you've made a wise use of your time given your values and abilities.

 

[907914]

An application is going to be looked at holistically... what have you been doing since HS graduation and does it reflect your values? If you say that you value service to those in need but haven't acted on values, it won't go over well... If your story is different, then it should hang together and show that you've made a wise use of your time given your values and abilities.

So ADCOMS may not necessarily care about recency of activity but longevity and severity of activity indicating dedication to the end goal?

 

[965978]

So ADCOMS may not necessarily care about recency of activity but longevity and severity of activity indicating dedication to the end goal?

Well if you are 35 and you volunteered for 5 years in your early 20's and not a minute since then.... it might say something.

ADCOMS very very well try to see applicants as people. This is why they interview them. They is why it's a painstakingly long process.

 

[RNtoMD87]

So lizzy if I gave 5 years military experience with a deployment and combat experience, I shouldn’t stress over non clinical volunteering? I would still like to get more in but I’m not sure how much.

And BTW my military experience was as a Military Policeman

 

[LizzyM]

So lizzy if I gave 5 years military experience with a deployment and combat experience, I shouldn’t stress over non clinical volunteering? I would still like to get more in but I’m not sure how much.

And BTW my military experience was as a Military Policeman

The adcom is asking "why does this person want to be a physician? What have they done in the past that gives us an idea of their values, knowledge, skills and abilities as it relates to being a medical student and, eventually, a physician? What exposure to the health field has the applicant had and was it sufficient to have some idea of the role of a physician? " From there it is a matter of asking questions during the interview to gain clarification.

Right now, I'm getting the feeling that you are box checking "How much do I need? Is this enough? Will I get a pass if I've done xyz?" Sing your own song and show how why you want to be a physician and how your past experiences have prepared you for this step and demonstrate that you will be a successful student and a competent physician.

 

[RNtoMD87]

I think everyone box checks to an extent. I have invested a lot to be a doctor. I currently make 50k less annually, and am racking up student loans in order to attend school. I can’t afford to just say, “well I hope they like what I did”.

I have thoroughly enjoyed volunteering both from the learning side, and particularly with diabetes education, I felt like I was making as much of a difference as I do as a nurse (ounce of prevention), but if it would still be seen as lacking, I will volunteer solely in addition to have more competitive hours, yes.

This isn’t to say I won’t enjoy volunteering. I would still choose something that brings me personal fulfillment, but if it was unnecessary I would probably spend more time studying, or relaxing. Working 3 years on nights and struggling to do all of the premed stuff has taken a toll on my health. I am now seeing a gastroenterologist and an endocrinologist. Now that I am on days, I feel much better (very hard to go back and forth from working nights at work to being off and doing schoolwork and shopping/taking care of business during the day). Was getting about 3-4 hours of sleep a night, and now that I’m on days and no longer volunteering I am sleeping 7 a night and my health has already improved in a month.

 

[907914]

I think everyone box checks to an extent. I have invested a lot to be a doctor. I currently make 50k less annually, and am racking up student loans in order to attend school. I can’t afford to just say, “well I hope they like what I did”.

I have thoroughly enjoyed volunteering both from the learning side, and particularly with diabetes education, I felt like I was making as much of a difference as I do as a nurse (ounce of prevention), but if it would still be seen as lacking, I will volunteer solely in addition to have more competitive hours, yes.

This isn’t to say I won’t enjoy volunteering. I would still choose something that brings me personal fulfillment, but if it was unnecessary I would probably spend more time studying, or relaxing. Working 3 years on nights and struggling to do all of the premed stuff has taken a toll on my health. I am now seeing a gastroenterologist and an endocrinologist. Now that I am on days, I feel much better (very hard to go back and forth from working nights at work to being off and doing schoolwork and shopping/taking care of business during the day). Was getting about 3-4 hours of sleep a night, and now that I’m on days and no longer volunteering I am sleeping 7 a night and my health has already improved in a month.

And they will see that you have worked full time and you can explain that in interviews if it even comes up. There are only a fraction of schools that are super sticklers about the whole “Commitment to selfless service” thing. If your service is through paid work after the military...we’ll not a whole lot of ADCOMS will be that surprised about seeing less volunteering.

The excess of volunteering comes in to play when you have the majority of students who go from high school to college to medical school (maybe a gap year somewhere in there with a year of paid work...maybe). Then there are the majority-minority group who make up the majority of the non-traditional students. These are the students that did poorly in undergrad and come back to MED school aspirations with a post-back, SMP or graduate degree. These students tend to fare lower than average with acceptances.

Then there are students like you and I...We went in to the military or directly in to the work force and only came in to the pre-MED path when we could afford it, but have been knocking it out of the park academically. However, having an actual life outside of school...ADCOMS mostly understand and respect that.

As far as the first part...about investing so much...you still need to be comfortable with the fact that there is a not-small chance you will not become a doctor.

 

[RNtoMD87]

And they will see that you have worked full time and you can explain that in interviews if it even comes up. There are only a fraction of schools that are super sticklers about the whole “Commitment to selfless service” thing. If your service is through paid work after the military...we’ll not a whole lot of ADCOMS will be that surprised about seeing less volunteering.

The excess of volunteering comes in to play when you have the majority of students who go from high school to college to medical school (maybe a gap year somewhere in there with a year of paid work...maybe). Then there are the majority-minority group who make up the majority of the non-traditional students. These are the students that did poorly in undergrad and come back to MED school aspirations with a post-back, SMP or graduate degree. These students tend to fare lower than average with acceptances.

Then there are students like you and I...We went in to the military or directly in to the work force and only came in to the pre-MED path when we could afford it, but have been knocking it out of the park academically. However, having an actual life outside of school...ADCOMS mostly understand and respect that.

As far as the first part...about investing so much...you still need to be comfortable with the fact that there is a not-small chance you will not become a doctor.

Well I wasn’t exactly knocking it out of the park. When I started in 06 I had a cGPA of 2.4. Then after the army I had almost a straight 4.0 but nursing pulled me down (had right at a 3.0 in nursing)

So far I’m sitting at like a 3.7 something sGPA and 3.35 or so cGPA

And I understand that. I have back up plans. MD/DO/Dental/Optometry

But if I’m being honest, I’m going to do whatever it takes to give me the best shot. I think to not do that would be insane.

 

[907914]

Well I wasn’t exactly knocking it out of the park. When I started in 06 I had a cGPA of 2.4. Then after the army I had almost a straight 4.0 but nursing pulled me down (had right at a 3.0)

So far I’m sitting at like a 3.7 something sGPA and 3.35 or so cGPA

The 06 grades won’t matter in the grand scheme of things save for high stats schools. Same with the nursing grades, most places understand that nursing and other allied health programs grade hard. The 4.0 after the army is the part that will matter most.

That is the same boat I am in (not as far back, though). 2013 grades from army program accredited through university was like a 3.3 followed by a few gap years while in reserves with nothing but 4.0 since.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Yep. My hospital-based Diploma Nursing Program (not even an associates. Just a Diploma program) grades really hard with a 7 pt grading scale, and they purposely make it where in a whole class you only have a few As. When I used to discuss my grade (which was mostly watching our hospital clinical performance and giving us a subjective grade which differed based on who it was) they would laugh at me and say “C=RN. Why are you so worried about it? YOURE PASSING!”

 

[907914]

Yep. My hospital-based Diploma Nursing Program (not even an associates. Just a Diploma program) grades really hard with a 6 pt grading scale, and they purposely make it where in a whole class you only have a few As. When I used to discuss my grade (which was mostly watching our hospital clinical performance and giving us a subjective grade which differed based on who it was) they would laugh at me and say “C=RN. Why are you so worried about it? YOURE PASSING!”

As an RN, just be wholly prepared to answer the question “Why not do NP instead?” As you would be a shoo-in for that, it costs less money, less time...and if you wanna do family practice it is almost the same as MD in a lot of states(whether it should be is debatable, but still...be ready to answer the questions).

 

[RNtoMD87]

Yep. That’s the hardest part of my personal statement. I’ve had a dozen or so doctors read it, and a couple even said it moved them emotionally. But almost every one said I need to do a little better at answering that question, I just don’t know how. Since an NP or even an RN still fulfills virtually every patient centered reason.

My reason for MD over RN or NP is selfish. For the knowledge and personal satisfaction.

 

[907914]

Yep. That’s the hardest part of my personal statement. I’ve had a dozen or so doctors read it, and a couple even said it moved them emotionally. But almost every one said I need to do a little better at answering that question, I just don’t know how. Since an NP or even an RN still fulfills virtually every patient centered reason.

My reason for MD over RN or NP is selfish. For the knowledge and personal satisfaction.

I think you can roll with that. Knowing you are not the ‘most qualified’ person in the room can lead you to feeling like potentially your decisions are not as accurate as they could be. Something along those lines.

 

[RNtoMD87]

1. I’m a big nerd. I love learning about EVERYTHING. But I don’t want to do research. I need to see the fruits of my labor firsthand.

2. It is frustrating being the nurse, and either not being able to fully answer patients questions, or know if this better idea you have than what’s being done IS in fact a better idea. (Often times it is. I call the doc and they say “YEAH! Let’s do that!” But I never know until someone more educated lets me know.

In a way you feel like you’re expected as a nurse to know everything and at the same time seen as you know nothing all at once. Call a doc and you will either get chewed out for not knowing something above your lebel, or you make a suggestion about patient care and the doctor is quick to tell you “I’ll decide that. You aren’t educated enough to have an opinion”

It puts you in a tight space. I’d rather have full responsibility, but when I don’t know, it IS my fault. Because I WILL find out. I’m that nurse that leans against the wall next to an attending and like 8 residents talking, and they look at me and say “Do you need something?” “No don’t mind me, just getting an idea of what’s going on/trying to learn something new”

 

[907914]

Yep. My hospital-based Diploma Nursing Program (not even an associates. Just a Diploma program) grades really hard with a 7 pt grading scale, and they purposely make it where in a whole class you only have a few As. When I used to discuss my grade (which was mostly watching our hospital clinical performance and giving us a subjective grade which differed based on who it was) they would laugh at me and say “C=RN. Why are you so worried about it? YOURE PASSING!”

Was that Diploma program through the Army as a 68W-M6/68C? Or was that a civilian RN program? And if military, was it accredited through a university?

 

[RNtoMD87]

Civilian. It was the Baton Rouge General School of Nursing. Was one of 16 diploma programs in the US when I attended. Now it is no more, and there are I’m guessing less than 5 diploma programs left. Diploma programs are the traditional RN school like from the 70s. Before a university RN program became a thing.

In the army I was a 31B

 

[907914]

1. I’m a big nerd. I love learning about EVERYTHING. But I don’t want to do research. I need to see the fruits of my labor firsthand.

2. It is frustrating being the nurse, and either not being able to fully answer patients questions, or know if this better idea you have than what’s being done IS in fact a better idea. (Often times it is. I call the doc and they say “YEAH! Let’s do that!” But I never know until someone more educated lets me know.

In a way you feel like you’re expected as a nurse to know everything and at the same time seen as you know nothing all at once. Call a doc and you will either get chewed out for not knowing something above your lebel, or you make a suggestion about patient care and the doctor is quick to tell you “I’ll decide that. You aren’t educated enough to have an opinion”

It puts you in a tight space. I’d rather have full responsibility, but when I don’t know, it IS my fault. Because I WILL find out. I’m that nurse that leans against the wall next to an attending and like 8 residents talking, and they look at me and say “Do you need something?” “No don’t mind me, just getting an idea of what’s going on/trying to learn something new”

I know that exact feeling. I am a MED lab tech. Everyone thinks it is just some certificate program or post-HS level button pushing work or that the lab techs know nothing about what they are doing...But yet I still know enough to call up the doctor and ask “Are you sure you don’t want this test instead because what you ordered won’t tell you what you think it does...” Sure it is just an associates...but that is a full year of clinically relevant classes plus a full year of clinical rotations.

Again, without going in to too much detail of understanding how you feel...I know the feeling.

 

[RNtoMD87]

I know that exact feeling. I am a MED lab tech. Everyone thinks it is just some certificate program or post-HS level button pushing work or that the lab techs know nothing about what they are doing...But yet I still know enough to call up the doctor and ask “Are you sure you don’t want this test instead because what you ordered won’t tell you what you think it does...” Sure it is just an associates...but that is a full year of clinically relevant classes plus a full year of clinical rotations.

Again, without going in to too much detail of understanding how you feel...I know the feeling.

Yep, my ex was thinking of doing that. Some have a Bachelors in it and it requires much of the premed coursework such as organic chem and also micro etc. I have much respect for lab techs.