Working In Canada after training in US

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swederoxette

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I am finishing an Endocrinology Fellowship in US and considering moving to Canada (Toronto) for a job. I have done my med schooling outside North America.

The minimal salary I am being offered (pre tax) is 230K with no weekend calls.
I am getting offers in the same range in US. I have no family ties to US/Canada.

Can anyone tell me the pros and cons of moving to Canada. How does working in Canada differ from in US especially malpractice, money and future growth wise?

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Well, you'll pay more taxes in canada, and will thus end up with less money in your pocket. However, malpractice laws in Canada are far more reasonable, which will spare you the costs of malpractice insurance. So, less take home pay, but less overhead as well.
 
that's not a bad salary at all. is it at a major hospital in toronto?
 
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thank you Jaycee.
Its seems the link that you sent woks only for physicians in BC. Do you have a similar lists for ON?
 
Physicians can incorporate .If you leave much of your $$$ in the corporation your effective tax can be much lower than 25 percent.
 
I am finishing an Endocrinology Fellowship in US and considering moving to Canada (Toronto) for a job. I have done my med schooling outside North America.

The minimal salary I am being offered (pre tax) is 230K with no weekend calls.
I am getting offers in the same range in US. I have no family ties to US/Canada.

Can anyone tell me the pros and cons of moving to Canada. How does working in Canada differ from in US especially malpractice, money and future growth wise?

I would take the job 10 out of 10 times. But... Are you allowed to work as a physician in Canada? Do you have a license? That's what is trickiest nowadays cause they won't take you USMLE exams and sometimes make you do extra years of supervised work before granting you with unrestricted license...
 
I moved my young Family up to Toronto to be with a suddenly windowed M.I.L.. My Wife, Canadian, and I, born, raised, and trained in the US, felt surely, given the shortage of MD's in general, so frequently discussed in Canada, it surely wouldn't be too tricky being allowed to practice my specialty there.
This was about 5 years ago. After 3 years of fruitless attempts, legal representation, and all the while, commuting back and forth daily to Buffalo as an MD who had already been practicing almost 8 years, we gave up. The refrain of " who knows, tomorrow, the OCPS could change their minds".

Still yearning to return to what was very much home to us, can anyone advise as to whether Ontario is permitting Ophthalmologists to obtain the license to practice there without jumping through the endless hoops, only to risk further rejection?
 
I moved my young Family up to Toronto to be with a suddenly windowed M.I.L.. My Wife, Canadian, and I, born, raised, and trained in the US, felt surely, given the shortage of MD's in general, so frequently discussed in Canada, it surely wouldn't be too tricky being allowed to practice my specialty there.
This was about 5 years ago. After 3 years of fruitless attempts, legal representation, and all the while, commuting back and forth daily to Buffalo as an MD who had already been practicing almost 8 years, we gave up. The refrain of " who knows, tomorrow, the OCPS could change their minds".

Still yearning to return to what was very much home to us, can anyone advise as to whether Ontario is permitting Ophthalmologists to obtain the license to practice there without jumping through the endless hoops, only to risk further rejection?

That is an unfortunate story... However, things are much better now, Ontario has come up with additional ways that US Docs, MDs/DOs can obtain licensure in Ontario. You should check out http://www.healthforceontario.ca/ --> basically, it's much MUCH easier to practice in Ontario / Canada now with their new rules. They have expedited programs that allow US docs with current practice to fast track into the Canadian system. Specifically, you should check this out: http://www.cpso.on.ca/policies/policies/default.aspx?ID=2352

You should get in touch with the health force ontario people, they will work with you one on one to figure out the next step. Good luck!
 
Well, I have almost made up my mind and now moving to Toronto. This is gonna have both personal and job related percussions but I am willing to take a risk coming fresh out of fellowship this summer!

100% re imbursement from single payer with additional 30% bonus for DM, opportunity to do get paid from research and CMEs, less malpractice hassles, no night or weekend call, no hospital coverage no admissions really attract me. Its a fee for service model and projected revenues 400k with 40% overhead, lands me a 1 year take home pre tax of about 240k.

But taxes are really killing me. Is it really 38% or total of 46% in Ontario as paycheckcity is calculating for me, a married person without any kids. Cold is another factor as I have never lived or driven in snow before. Mind you this 240k after overhead income is a projection as it might take 3 months to build a practice and I will be underpaid during that time! The pros and cons of not taking salaried position.

But overall I feel, it should be a good decision in long term to work as an endocrinologist in Canada than US. I can immigrate my family better easier (though I would be losing my hard earned US green card), less malpractice hassles, less crime and may be more respect to doctors here?
 
And yeah, they have some nice people in HealthForce Ontario who will really help your question about licensing.
 
Yes, taxes (provincial and federal) will come out to about 40% in Ontario. I think this year it was 29% federal and 11% in Ontario for someone in your income tax bracket.

I still think endocrinology would probably earn a bit more in US after taxes are factored in, but the decision is yours. Good luck!

[Just an almost-MS4 from Canada]
 
Ontario allows physycians to incorporate.

You draw a salady from the corporation for what u need to pay personal expenses and leave p to 500K per year in the corpration which is taxed at only 15 %. As a result your effective tax rate really drops. Any capital gains from the $ invested in the corporation can be witbdrawn at a preferentisl rate ater for personal use.

At a recent USA conference all th yankee docs werequite jealous if our canuck situation
 
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What is a median salary estimate for psychiatrists practicing in Ontario, more specifically in Toronto?
 
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html

From these rates (Revenue Canada), $400K income in Ontario you will pay around 37% in taxes (federal + provincial). Remember, tax bracket rates only apply to income within that bracket. So the top bracket of 29% means only income above that 128000 is taxed at 29% (not $400K x 29%). What about your deductions?
 
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You should do a search for Endocrinologists on this site: https://www.cpsbc.ca/node/264

Then search their name here: http://www.health.gov.bc.ca/msp/legislation/pdf/MSC_Financial_Statement_2009_complete.pdf
so you can find out how much they billed. Keep in mind that depending on the specialty, overhead can range from 15-40% of what the physician has billed.

For example, my family doc is on that list, and billed about $450k, but his overhead is probably 40% of that.

Also, ask the Canadians on this site: http://www.premed101.com/forums/

Hope that helps.
that's an amazing document. Can you find this document for physicians in Quebec?
 
Well how do deduction work in Canada? I have a non working wife, no kids.
I agree to incorporate is a good idea. Do you need to be a permanent resident or citizen. How do you incorporate?
 
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html

From these rates (Revenue Canada), $400K income in Ontario you will pay around 37% in taxes (federal + provincial). Remember, tax bracket rates only apply to income within that bracket. So the top bracket of 29% means only income above that 128000 is taxed at 29% (not $400K x 29%). What about your deductions?

As others have stated, at least in Ontario, physicians are allowed to incorporate and have (with some restrictions) family members as shareholders, and thus can pay them dividends. This is virtually useless for children <18, but for spouses, adult children (and they will eventually become adults), and other acceptable relatives, it has the effect of greatly reducing the effective tax rate since they'll be in lower tax brackets. There are accountants (you'll want a CA), that specialize in medical practices, get a consultation with one early on.

As others have stated too, in Ontario, the government has an agreement with physicians to cover the vast majority of their liability insurance as long as they work in the public system.
 
so here I am - about 2 years after I moved here for endocrinology practice!
I just love practising here and glad made the right decision. You practice real medicine and enjoy being a physician. Would chose Canada anytime regarding practice and life satisfaction except for the weather!
 
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so here I am - about 2 years after I moved here for endocrinology practice!
I just love practising here and glad made the right decision. You practice real medicine and enjoy being a physician. Would chose Canada anytime regarding practice and life satisfaction except for the weather!

Great to hear! Very happy for you :D
 
so here I am - about 2 years after I moved here for endocrinology practice!
I just love practising here and glad made the right decision. You practice real medicine and enjoy being a physician. Would chose Canada anytime regarding practice and life satisfaction except for the weather!

I am also interested in moving to Canada -- Alberta. How hard was the procedure? What does it involve?
 
I am finishing my fellowship in pulmonary and critical care medicine already board certified in internal medicine, thinking about moving to Vancouver but unfortunately not finding any job offers in BC for PCCM even for internal medicine, I am searching indeed database.
Ay thoughts about how to search for jobs in Canada, how can I get in touch with physician recruiter?
I wonder also does it requires to practice under supervision for one year before unrestricted license?
 
to be honest there are too many IM in BC and urban areas please see attached: http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/1-in-6-new-medical-specialists-say-they-can-t-find-work-1.1931800
Canadian medical programs are finally turning out a surplus of IM and other specialities.

If you were FM and wanted to go to rural area then there are still positions.

Everyone wants to go to Vancouver to work as a physician. Those are Canadian grads in BC and MDs from across Canada. Your best chance of practicing in Vancouver( as would be the best chance of living in any desirable location) would be if you were a graduate of UBC medical school and residency, were born or grew up in Vancouver and had extended family and friends in Vancouver. Otherwise it's a closed shop as they say.
 
so here I am - about 2 years after I moved here for endocrinology practice!
I just love practising here and glad made the right decision. You practice real medicine and enjoy being a physician. Would chose Canada anytime regarding practice and life satisfaction except for the weather!

I know this is an old post, but I hope you can provide info regarding licensing. I am planning to practice in Canada after my endocrinology fellowship training if I can get a placement in/near Toronto area!

I will appreciate If you can tell me your experience in getting the license. Did you apply through pathway 4 ? Was the assessment exam easy ? Also I am not clear whether I will be able to practice any where without any restrictions if I successfully complete the exam. Did you do any exams ?
 
Hi all,

Thanks so much for the great insight and info! I'm wondering how much an endo in Ontario (or even in Canada) can expect to make in a community non-hospital practice, such as a private clinic or LMC? I know there are some average stats out there but I've also heard very different numbers. For instance, the average here includes community, hospital/academic, and part-time which would be a great source of variance in the average https://www.cma.ca/Assets/assets-library/document/en/advocacy/Endocrinology-Metabolism-e.pdf

Thanks :)
 
Am An IM board certified physician and planing to finish rheumatology training here in the US and hopefully relocating to Canada and when did some research looked like pathway 4 is my best option to relocate however the whole process seems somewhat vague so I was hoping if someone who went through this may help break it down for a better insight for someone trying to settle in and practice in Ontario !?
 
Am An IM board certified physician and planing to finish rheumatology training here in the US and hopefully relocating to Canada and when did some research looked like pathway 4 is my best option to relocate however the whole process seems somewhat vague so I was hoping if someone who went through this may help break it down for a better insight for someone trying to settle in and practice in Ontario !?

Would be good to know for me. What's with the 1 year practice "supervision" requirement?!
 
Yes and are there like an ABIM equivalent we are required to take? There isn't much online step by step breakdown of this process
 
That I should what I have heard hopefully someone here will. E able to share how this goes!;)
 
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