why so negative to PA's

[Tristan14578]

Why are nurses so against Physician assistants? Every time I talk to a nurse all they have to say is negative things about PA’s?

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[Farmer Jane]

Why are nurses so against Physician assistants? Every time I talk to a nurse all they have to say is negative things about PA’s?

Hi, I'm Jane. I'm a nurse.

There. You have now talked with a nurse who is not negative about PAs. My experience is the opposite of yours. In five years of practice I've never met a nurse who was negative about PAs as a group.

 

[deleted6669]

Hi, I'm Jane. I'm a nurse.

There. You have now talked with a nurse who is not negative about PAs. My experience is the opposite of yours. In five years of practice I've never met a nurse who was negative about PAs as a group.

thank you.
there is some pa vs np rivalry out there but very little rn vs pa.

 

[core0]

thank you.
there is some pa vs np rivalry out there but very little rn vs pa.

Depends on the flavor of the kool-aid at the school. There is one school where I practiced where the instructor told the students that nurses did not have to take orders from PAs. My reply was usually " see how that works out for you". Some of these same programs really perpetuate the myths that you hear in the NP debate. Usually goes away after you work with them. Some of it in at least one institution was NPs that could not find a job working as RNs and badmouthing PAs. Fortunately the only person who's opinion I really care about is my SP.

David Carpenter, PA-C

 

[fab4fan]

I'm not negative, but I will admit to being apprehensive. That comes more from having had mostly bad experiences with the few PAs I worked with and then having the misfortune of now working in an area where PAs aren't used much. The one I have some contact with is OK, but I hate to say it, he is similar to the others in being overly condescending, almost to the point of being rude to nursing. It's odd, because the attending he works for is nothing like that at all.

I'm sure there are many PAs who aren't like this, but this has been my experience. I'm not anybody's handmaiden and I don't expect to be treated as such.

 

[Farmer Jane]

Depends on the flavor of the kool-aid at the school. There is one school where I practiced where the instructor told the students that nurses did not have to take orders from PAs. My reply was usually " see how that works out for you". Some of these same programs really perpetuate the myths that you hear in the NP debate.

I wish I could say I have much respect for nursing leadership and academia, but, well... This is part of the reason. Honestly I think a lot of the issues stem from leadership and academia. I don't get it. Don't they have research to do? Could maybe we spend a little more time setting up systems to help the elderly take their medications properly rather than disparaging PAs (or ADNs, but that's a whole 'nother thread).

 

[Febrifuge]

Where I worked, we (meaning the ancillary staff) got along well with, and respected, all the people who were smart, personable, and good at their jobs. That included PAs, RNs, residents, staff docs, and even students. One of the coolest, most competent clinicians I've ever met is an NP. As a patient, I'd rather have any of my several RN friends hovering over me than just about anyone.

We also made fun of people who shot their mouths off without the skills to back it up. That ALSO included PAs, RNs, residents, staff docs, and students.

Any RN who had something to say about PAs as a category would invariably be some new person, who would turn out to be a tool. Then, in a few months, those folks would leave our department for other units, where people get to sit down more often. We didn't really have a great number of NPs, so I can honestly say I've never met one I didn't like.

I've found that if the department/ clinic/ practice is focused on doing a good job, and you have good people, then it's not hard for those people to figure out that teamwork is an asset, and it's a good thing that not everyone has the exact same role. Places where I've witnessed the kind of insecurity and backbiting that characterizes these meaningless squabbles always seem to be the kind of places where I'd never want to be a patient. Interesting how that works out...

 

[timerick]

Folks who are negative about PAs are often negative about other classes of people, too. You'll find folks who for their own personal reasons have a need to look down on someone else, and they'll find plenty of opportunity wherever they go. They also tend to evidence a lack of understanding of the people they look down on, so some of their reasons for disdain may not make a lot of sense to others.

I work as a PA with two NPs and one MD, and the combo seems to work quite well.

 

[DocNusum]

As a RN who attended both PA and FNP school...

I've heard LPNs, RNs, PAs and NPs disparage one another...
I've personally witnessed sub-standard practice in ALL of them.

Usually... I just verbally contradict their "petty" notions and then pull out ALL of the Certs/Licenses as proof of knowledge...

Currently... I work with all of them (LPNs/RNs/NPs/PAs/MDs/DOs) and we all get along and respect each others strengths and weaknesses and try to accomplish a common goal of "treating the patient."

 

[Moniker]

As a RN who attended both PA and FNP school...

I've heard LPNs, RNs, PAs and NPs disparage one another...
I've personally witnessed sub-standard practice in ALL of them.

Usually... I just verbally contradict their "petty" notions and then pull out ALL of the Certs/Licenses as proof of knowledge...

Currently... I work with all of them (LPNs/RNs/NPs/PAs/MDs/DOs) and we all get along and respect each others strengths and weaknesses and try to accomplish a common goal of "treating the patient."

Wait just for clarification - you're not a doctor, right?

 

[Tristan14578]

noppers.

 

[deleted6669]

Wait just for clarification - you're not a doctor, right?

WAIT, just for clarification- you're not a doctor yet either, right?

 

[LizUMD]

WAIT, just for clarification- you're not a doctor yet either, right?

I'm just an innocent bystander here... but I *think* they were referring to the poster's name (DocNusum) as a point of confusion if they are not a "doctor."

 

[Miss Mab]

to the original question, I wanted to wait and think this one out because I'm just that kinda gal....

In the real world at work I've never had any issues w/PA's. Wait, take that back. In my ER we had one total pr@#$ but I think he was that way long before he undertook the title--and he was very short-lived thanks to our physician group.

On these various boards though, I have to say I've come to very much, not hate by any means, wouldn't really have thought about it except having this particular question posed, but definitely less than respect the way a majority of posters come across in regard to their own profession.

It just gets old......the continual need to justify(?) and elevate their own profession at the expense and devaluation of another....over and over and over. And over.

Enough already. ...It just gets boring.

 

[Moniker]

I'm just an innocent bystander here... but I *think* they were referring to the poster's name (DocNusum) as a point of confusion if they are not a "doctor."

yes (and the signature was confusing). I would answer emedpa's question, but he was not seriously asking.

 

[deleted6669]

Docnusum is a friend of mine.
he used to be a military medic before becoming a nurse and later a pa/fnp.
the tradition in the service is to call the medics "doc".

 

[Morb]

I'm half way through a PA program right now and we are frequently told that we are a team, and anyone who doesn't respect the nurses will find out very quickly how hard they can make life for you. I don't see the point anyway, why sabotage yourself, just like anything else, life is a lot easier if you try to get along. Unfortunately, most people need to be in a clique, and denigrate others to raise themselves up if only in their own minds. It's a system as old as the first tribe of humans, but it doesn't make it right.

 

[Febrifuge]

Exactly. And from what I've seen in the real hospital world, there are maybe three people in the building who are so rich in reputation and power that they can get away with treating others like crap. And for all their fancy clothes and nice cars, you NEVER see them out for beers with the team.

Real professionalism is about respect, and it's about setting aside your own ego for the sake of doing good work. That means letting the people around you be as good as they can be at what they do; in the end everybody helps everybody, you get good results, and each individual looks like a total GENIUS because you're never actually stuck on your own without a clue.

Being an A-hole is the quickest way to deprive yourself of all the advantages of that. Being a decent, thoughtful human who cares more about the patient than your own image is the quickest way to get the right kind of attention.

Note that none of the above has anything to do with your degree or your job title...

 

[deleted6669]

FWIW, that's a total myth.

maybe where you work....at many places the charge nurses control the flow of pts to providers. if they don't like you all of a sudden you are seeing every rectal pain, vag bleed, foul odor from xyz, etc while your partner sees chest pain, asthma, and gets all the cool procedures......
an angry nurse can ruin your day.....so don't make them angry.....be their friend.....let some other guy get the rectal pain pts.....

 

[Moniker]

Docnusum is a friend of mine.
he used to be a military medic before becoming a nurse and later a pa/fnp.
the tradition in the service is to call the medics "doc".

Ok. I guess I understand that.

...what was his rank? I think I'll start having people call me that.

You're talking about an ER setting. Most of us don't work there.

not to mention, as much as I resent their assertion that nurses have that much power over our careers, I am appalled that people seem to think that they'll use this power inappropriately to retaliate against physicians they don't like. I think it's more appropriate to say a good working relationship with nurses is in the best interest of your career, rather than saying if you don't have a good relationship with a nurse she'll/he'll make your life a living hell.

 

[Miss Mab]

FWIW, that's a total myth.

As is the hilarious notion that the average nurse would expend energy or waste any of his/her ever decreasing time concocting insidious plots against the 'great white coat.'

Who thinks this stuff up?

Although I am aware that excessive tiredness can lead to paranoia.....

That ER charge? I work there too. She's a huge bi@# to everyone. Hmmmm....ever wonder why you often have the same one or two RN's during all those aromatic cases?

It's a big shi#$list----the initials behind our names are irrelevant.

 

[Moniker]

They have no effect on your career whatsoever. When they decide to retaliate against you, they do so by delaying/denying care to your patients. That's why you have to be vigilant about oversight, especially when you are a resident (some nurses feel far more comfortable ignoring resident orders).

But the notion that they "make your life miserable" is nonsense. Your life will already be miserable. When a nurse is angry at you, it's just teacups in the ocean, my friend.

Let's hear a good "when a nurse was mad at me" story Tires....

 

[Farmer Jane]

In all fairness, the phrase "nurses eat their young" is sometimes true. This malignant, vicious attitude is not limited to young nurses--it extends to interns, residents, and just about anyone. It is not perpetuated by the majority of nurses, by any means, but the ones who do act like this are so awful that they stand out. I've had some unbelievable behavior directed towards me, so I can't discount the reports of others. The majority of us are just, you know, normal. It's just that we have our share of schoolyard bullies and they are rarely taken to task.

 

[fab4fan]

I don't have the time to formulate plots against people who annoy me. It's hard enough to plot how I'm going to get to lunch before the cafeteria closes.

 

[Farmer Jane]

I don't have the time to formulate plots against people who annoy me. It's hard enough to plot how I'm going to get to lunch before the cafeteria closes.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[fab4fan]

Amen. Why the hell doesn't every hospital in America have 24hr food availability? I have given serious thought to putting in diet orders on intubated ICU patients, just so I can have a tray. Of course, then I'd have some administrator lecturing me about fraud and misappropriation of hospital resources.

You might be forgiven for making a mistake that kills a patient, but fraudently ordering from dietary services would be a pretty serious offense. I wouldn't go there. They count the saltine crackers on our unit, for God's sake.

 

[deleted6669]

Amen. Why the hell doesn't every hospital in America have 24hr food availability? I have given serious thought to putting in diet orders on intubated ICU patients, just so I can have a tray. Of course, then I'd have some administrator lecturing me about fraud and misappropriation of hospital resources.

you don't have a medical staff lounge that's stocked with food 24/7?....you poor bastard....we(the medical staff: md/do, pa/np, residents) get continental breakfast from 6:30-9, hot lunch 11-3, 24/7 snacks/cereal/fruit/coffee/yogurt/etc.....seriously

 

[bryanboling5]

you don't have a medical staff lounge that's stocked with food 24/7?....you poor bastard....we(the medical staff: md/do, pa/np, residents) get continental breakfast from 6:30-9, hot lunch 11-3, 24/7 snacks/cereal/fruit/coffee/yogurt/etc.....seriously

Really? Wow. The nicest staff lounge I've seen had a fridge full of soda and bagels/cereal/other self-serve type stuff...but no hot food (unless you microwaved something...)

 

[deleted6669]

Really? Wow. The nicest staff lounge I've seen had a fridge full of soda and bagels/cereal/other self-serve type stuff...but no hot food (unless you microwaved something...)

I think it started out as something for the residents then was extended to the whole medical staff. we don't have a 24/7 cafeteria so those who work between 7p-5a need somewhere to go for food.

 

[Farmer Jane]

You might be forgiven for making a mistake that kills a patient, but fraudently ordering from dietary services would be a pretty serious offense. I wouldn't go there. They count the saltine crackers on our unit, for God's sake.

Isn't that the truth. In a hospital where I used to work, the kitchen would just through fits when we would ask them to stock sandwiches in the OB kitchenette. The way they acted you would think those sandwiches came out of their personal bank accounts. We just couldn't get it through their heads that nursing moms get hungry in the middle of the night. They kept accusing us of eating their precious bologna and cheap bread sandwiches.

 

[fab4fan]

I even steal Ensure.

Ewww. Just the smell of Ensure makes me want to yak. Just practice looking pathetic--the nurses will feel sorry for you and feed you. Unless you have some sort of "rep" you need to uphold. Then you'll just have to be hungry.

 

[horsenurse25]

When they decide to retaliate against you, they do so by delaying/denying care to your patients. That's why you have to be vigilant about oversight, especially when you are a resident (some nurses feel far more comfortable ignoring resident orders). .

That is a horrible statement, and an anomaly, not the norm.

No nurse would ever stay on any floor very long if they EVER did this. Most nurses feel an obligation to advocate for their patients, not victimize them.

What hospitals have you been working at where this is the normal behaviour??

And for the record, any physician that is an a$$hole has not stayed long at the three hospitals I have worked at either, so it works both ways.

Maybe I have just worked at superior hospitals.

And truly, if you want to be a victim, forget to bring your bagged lunch and be at the mercy of the cafeteria staff. I couldn't get off the floor until half an hour after lunch time and all that was left were three American cheese slices, a few sunflower seeds on the bottom of the salad bowl, and a day old muffin.

Tragic I tell you.

 

[fab4fan]

And truly, if you want to be a victim, forget to bring your bagged lunch and be at the mercy of the cafeteria staff. I couldn't get off the floor until half an hour after lunch time and all that was left were three American cheese slices, a few sunflower seeds on the bottom of the salad bowl, and a day old muffin.

Tragic I tell you.

We must work at the same place. Technically, our cafeteria closes at 1400, but if you don't get there by 1300-1330, you're toast. No, you're not even that, because they take away the bread.

 

[onthego]

I have worked with nurses for about 5 years. It is true, they complain of PAs but also they complain of MDs, DOs too. They like to complain, that's all. I have heard from a nursing student that hating on the medical staff is integrated in their curriculum. Nursing school drills their students on how unempathetic doctors and residents are. Doctors need to take more classes in death and dying. They need to spend more time with the patient. Nurses teach residents this and that. blah blah blah. So it is understandable that nurses have so much hate against PAs, MDs, DOs. Don't blame them, they were just trained that way.

 

[fab4fan]

I have worked with nurses for about 5 years. It is true, they complain of PAs but also they complain of MDs, DOs too. They like to complain, that's all. I have heard from a nursing student that hating on the medical staff is integrated in their curriculum. Nursing school drills their students on how unempathetic doctors and residents are. Doctors need to take more classes in death and dying. They need to spend more time with the patient. Nurses teach residents this and that. blah blah blah. So it is understandable that nurses have so much hate against PAs, MDs, DOs. Don't blame them, they were just trained that way.

So based on what you heard from one nursing student, you're making your assessment of the situation? Maybe that was true of that student's program, but it wasn't true for mine.

For what it's worth, I have heard plenty of complaining over the years from med students, RTs, PTs, MDs, DOs, etc. People of all stripes complain.

 

[onthego]

So based on what you heard from one nursing student, you're making your assessment of the situation? Maybe that was true of that student's program, but it wasn't true for mine.

For what it's worth, I have heard plenty of complaining over the years from med students, RTs, PTs, MDs, DOs, etc. People of all stripes complain.

I have heard similar stories from different nursing students. I work in a University hospital where many nursing students from different programs do their clinicals. What I tell you is not a lie nor do I have any reason to. I have the deepest respect for nurses as they are a valuable team member of the healthcare team. What I do hear however in the break room (their hang out place) is how doctors are this and that while they munch on their donuts and muffins. Again, nursing students I have spoken too explain to me the lack of empathy Clinicians have w/ their patients. I ask where do you here of this rubbish, and they respond SCHOOL. There are many nursing books published (required reading) that talks about the mistakes and incompetence of physicians. From my understanding, the Nursing board has a curriculum required for all nursing schools to abide by to maintain their accreditation. A school or program learning about the incompetency of a doctor is also learning it from a different program. I am sure you have read similar material while you were in training. LIke I said, I have nothing against your profession as my parents were both nurses in the military. I think it is appropriate and necessary to be open minded and not be blinded by your denials.

 

[fab4fan]

I have heard similar stories from different nursing students. I work in a University hospital where many nursing students from different programs do their clinicals. What I tell you is not a lie nor do I have any reason to. I have the deepest respect for nurses as they are a valuable team member of the healthcare team. What I do hear however in the break room (their hang out place) is how doctors are this and that while they munch on their donuts and muffins. Again, nursing students I have spoken too explain to me the lack of empathy Clinicians have w/ their patients. I ask where do you here of this rubbish, and they respond SCHOOL. There are many nursing books published (required reading) that talks about the mistakes and incompetence of physicians. From my understanding, the Nursing board has a curriculum required for all nursing schools to abide by to maintain their accreditation. A school or program learning about the incompetency of a doctor is also learning it from a different program. I am sure you have read similar material while you were in training. LIke I said, I have nothing against your profession as my parents were both nurses in the military. I think it is appropriate and necessary to be open minded and not be blinded by your denials.

It looks like you have some issues with nurses, whatever your profession. (It's not noted in your profile.) Your posts have nice little slams here and there aimed at nurses. The fact that your parents were former military nurses doesn't impress me in the slightest. If anything, it's a disappointment. They should have raised you better.

You have your facts wrong about nursing education. Nurses are not required to learn about how "uncaring" and "incompetent" doctors are. I didn't spend any time on either topic when I was a student. What a ridiculous idea! That's so preposterous on its face that I can hardly believe you would post it.

I know things are informal here, but some attention to basic grammar would make your posts a whole lot easier to read.

 

[fab4fan]

Agreed.

I do have to admit though, that "Doctors don't really care the way we do" is a pretty common refrain from nursing. Of course, that's just part of the complaining that makes up the background noise in the hospital, and ridiculous slams on other professionals are pretty much par for the course throughout health care.

I'm going to admit to something I'll bet no other nurse would say, but am certain many nurses have felt. There are lots of days that I envy docs for being able to just come in, do what they have to do and leave. As a nurse, I'm pretty much stuck on the unit, so I have to spend more time with patients, whether or not I really want to. Some days, not so much.

 

[PHealthMan]

I wouldnt place much currency in what you read on a website where the majority of participants are students and residents. When you see a message board with a requirement limiting participation to senior PA's, attendings, chiefs, experienced NP's, and academics in medicine and related areas you will see a very different feel towards PA's and many of the issues you see on this board. Do not place much value on what a few anonymous people say on a message board.

 

[zenman]

II ask where do you here of this rubbish, and they respond SCHOOL. There are many nursing books published (required reading) that talks about the mistakes and incompetence of physicians. From my understanding, the Nursing board has a curriculum required for all nursing schools to abide by to maintain their accreditation. A school or program learning about the incompetency of a doctor is also learning it from a different program. .

I've taught in both ADN and BSN programs and this is news to me

 

[brightness]

This was a very fair and balanced thread.

I liked it.

 

[CernerDrone]

Back to the original question:

Some nurses are just jealous of PA's, some aren't.

Someone mentioned an RN not being anyone's "handmaiden". Well no, but as an RN your job should be patient care which includes following MD/DO/NP/PA orders and doing a lot of work many would see as "scut" (helping move the patient, helping clean the patient, getting stool samples, etc) yet is an important part of patient care. If one isn't going to be fine with doing such work, then don't do it at all. Better someone with less pride and happiness doing some "scut" work than someone who pretends to be a leader and not a team player.

 

[onthego]

Back to the original question:

Some nurses are just jealous of PA's, some aren't.

Someone mentioned an RN not being anyone's "handmaiden". Well no, but as an RN your job should be patient care which includes following MD/DO/NP/PA orders and doing a lot of work many would see as "scut" (helping move the patient, helping clean the patient, getting stool samples, etc) yet is an important part of patient care. If one isn't going to be fine with doing such work, then don't do it at all. Better someone with less pride and happiness doing some "scut" work than someone who pretends to be a leader and not a team player.

Amen !

 

[julie walker]

Nurses are not really against the PA's, it is just that some of them put the patients' health on the line. Most times they come to my facility with high expectation for them to be spoon fed. Wake up! You are PA's! Apply what you have learned in school and quit asking stupid questions. The poor nurses are so overworked and burnt out, the need time to rejuvinate instead of spending a whole day explaining to PA's what is expected of them.

 

[julie walker]

Tired, are you looking for yourself? I am not a troll. I am a logical person who divert crap to the dumps. This is who I am. Mind you, I am not trying to insult anyone here. I got a warning. Please do not overstep your bounds here.

 

[julie walker]

Tired,

I can see that you want to have a conversation with me. I have to restrain myself here from telling you exactly what you portray yourself to be from reading some of your posts. However, I will take the high road and show some love. Have a good night.

 

[Febrifuge]

Nurses are not really against the PA's, it is just that some of them put the patients' health on the line. Most times they come to my facility with high expectation for them to be spoon fed. Wake up! You are PA's! Apply what you have learned in school and quit asking stupid questions. The poor nurses are so overworked and burnt out, the need time to rejuvinate instead of spending a whole day explaining to PA's what is expected of them.

See, to me, that's kind of strange, because when I worked as an ER tech for three years, my experienced RN friends would say things like, "the brand-new MD's sometimes seem like they're out to prove something. They don't ask questions about the way things should be done around here, they don't look to us for help. We've been here longer, we're all one team, and you'd think people could set aside their egos and just ask for help when they're a little lost."

So you're saying the fact that somebody's been through a training program means they shouldn't be asking the RNs for advice and help? I'm sorry, that just sounds a little backward to me. RNs are a crucial part of the team, and patient care is way improved if people speak up, even if it's to ask a "stupid" question. I would never hesitate to get some guidance from an experienced RN. Maybe he or she hasn't had the classes I have, but they know how things work in the real world -- and more importantly in that unit, or that practice.

I mean, you are talking about new PAs right, not ones that have been out of school and working in that same setting for a while?

 

[julie walker]

I was really talking about those PA's who have been working for years in the facilities. Moreover, some these new PA's ask the same questions five times for the day. Presently, I am at work and there is one of them sitting behind me who is annoying the hell out of me with his stupid questions. He just asked me to call a consult for a GI problem and I had to tell him that the Doctor he instructed me to call is a Urologist and he continues to say he is correct. Now he feels bad because he just found out from his peers that I was correct. A urologist does not do colonoscopy. Hello! where did you attend school? At the Pizza Hut?

 

[fab4fan]

I was really talking about those PA's who have been working for years in the facilities. Moreover, some these new PA's ask the same questions five times for the day. Presently, I am at work and there is one of them sitting behind me who is annoying the hell out of me with his stupid questions. He just asked me to call a consult for a GI problem and I had to tell him that the Doctor he instructed me to call is a Urologist and he continues to say he is correct. Now he feels bad because he just found out from his peers that I was correct. A urologist does not do colonoscopy. Hello! where did you attend school? At the Pizza Hut?

If you're at work, then why are you here? Shouldn't you be, oh, I don't know, doing your j-o-b?

 

[julie walker]

Fab4Fan,

There you go again, trying to break my good girl spirit. I will humbly ignore your question and move on to bigger and better things.