Why Non-Funded Programs

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
jmiah717

jmiah717

Full Member
5+ Year Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2017
Messages
93
Reaction score
52
I hope this doesn't come across as arrogant in any way, but I'm having a tough time understanding why anyone would pick a non-funded program (at least partially). I get it that maybe one's goal in life is to become a psychologist or therapist, but is it really worth the debt and lack of options? I keep seeing people excited about getting into programs that offer no funding, low chances of APA internships, and high debt loads. I guess if $$ doesn't matter it's not a big deal?

Speaking as a person in his mid 30's who is working as a therapist and knows the demands that job puts on you as well as the reality of debt, I can't imagine graduating and having all that debt added to my stress level. I have almost 70 schools on my list to apply to and I'll apply to about 20 when all said and done. All of them are funded. Even if money were no object, I can't imagine spending 5-8 years of my life accruing all of that debt just to get started. You can get a master's degree and get your license in 1/2 that time and will have 4 years of experience under your belt to boot! Not knocking anyone who takes that path. I wish you the best. I am just trying to see if I'm missing anything by keeping all of those programs that don't fund off my list.
Members don't see this ad.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Because many people do not know how either money/finance/debt or our field work. IMO, it's simply lack of foresight and/or planning. We're a nation of people who want the easy way out, without thinking of long-term implications.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Lack of knowledge. I applied geographically limited to 3 schools my first round, and knew literally nothing about funding/not funding, etc. I just knew I wanted to get into school close to home, and grossly underestimated the amount of funded programs, esp if I was willing to move a bit farther; I assumed most programs were unfunded and 100k+. Also, you mentioned being in your 30s so I imagine you are "wiser" and more "in the know" that my idiot self was applying at 22. People will likely call this "poor planning", but I was first gen to even graduate college with no friends in the same field, appropriate mentors, or parental guidance. Hindsight sure is 20/20.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
Members don't see this ad :)
Member6677 said:
People will likely call this "poor planning", but I was first gen to even graduate college with no friends in the same field, appropriate mentors, or parental guidance.
Click to expand...

This is really important because "going to college" is not enough. I was also a first gen college student, and a real turning point in my education came when one of my professors (a clinical psychologist) took the time to give me advice about preparing for additional training after college. The advice was specific and actionable. Because of this one professor, I decided to transfer from a middling institution close to home to a large R1 institution to get research experience and broader exposure to the field.

I don't get to work with a lot of undergraduates, but contributing to SDN is one of my little ways of paying it forward.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
I typically point out that if there are not logical reasons for this behavior, there must be emotional ones.

Then I get an emotional reaction.
 
Member6677 said:
Lack of knowledge. I applied geographically limited to 3 schools my first round, and knew literally nothing about funding/not funding, etc. I just knew I wanted to get into school close to home, and grossly underestimated the amount of funded programs, esp if I was willing to move a bit farther; I assumed most programs were unfunded and 100k+. Also, you mentioned being in your 30s so I imagine you are "wiser" and more "in the know" that my idiot self was applying at 22. People will likely call this "poor planning", but I was first gen to even graduate college with no friends in the same field, appropriate mentors, or parental guidance. Hindsight sure is 20/20.
Click to expand...
Very similar to my own story. It can be extremely difficult to achieve much more than your parents and family system have. At many times during my education and training it would become painfully obvious how much different i was from some of my peers and I definitely needed additional support to make it through. Now I get to help others push past some of these barriers and that is one of the best parts of my job.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
Some people honestly believe that 100k debt and 50k salary = paid off in two years, what a deal!

Or they think psychs make $200k out the door (or, at least, they will).

There are nonfunded/low funded programs at universities that are several tens of thousands. I'm not sure I'd but those in the same class as programs where students regularly accrue 100k in debt though.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I agree with MamaPhD about the importance of mentorship. I took a psychology honors seminar during my senior year at an R1 state school. I told my professor that I was thinking of including some funded schools as backup. He told me this was a bad idea, and I applied only to fully funded programs.

As I finish up postdoc, several of my colleagues are now staring down six figures in debt. They are very stressed about landing jobs that offer loan repayment assistance. Most are engaged, newly married, or preparing to start families while under huge amounts of financial pressure.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
mlwg1 said:
I agree with MamaPhD about the importance of mentorship. I took a psychology honors seminar during my senior year at an R1 state school. I told my professor that I was thinking of including some funded schools as backup. He told me this was a bad idea, and I applied only to fully funded programs.

As I finish up postdoc, several of my colleagues are now staring down six figures in debt. They are very stressed about landing jobs that offer loan repayment assistance. Most are engaged, newly married, or preparing to start families while under huge amounts of financial pressure.
Click to expand...


Sure, as a married guy who is asking his spouse to travel around the country with him and give up my VA salary for a bunch of years, possibly move away from family, etc...I'm already asking for quite a bit. I just can't do that AND put us in a spot where we would then be in a ton of debt we may never pay off. That wouldn't make it worth it for me. I can see how it might still be fine for others to apply to non-funded programs but I just wouldn't be able to make it work. There were a couple of non-funded programs I looked at that were good, but I think the prudent thing to do is to leave them off the list. I do feel like I'm at some advantage maturity wise in this process...possibly my only advantage. I know what the field is like and have reasonable expectations of what to expect. I also have a great fallback plan since I'm already licensed, if for some reason things don't work out and I have to pull the plug on this. Thanks for the feedback and best of luck.
 
smalltownpsych said:
Very similar to my own story. It can be extremely difficult to achieve much more than your parents and family system have. At many times during my education and training it would become painfully obvious how much different i was from some of my peers and I definitely needed additional support to make it through. Now I get to help others push past some of these barriers and that is one of the best parts of my job.
Click to expand...

My story is also similar. I'm the only one with a bachelor's degree, let alone a master's degree. I am fortunate enough to be in a situation where I can ONLY do a funded program. Even though I know there are other options, I just can't manage those. But without this forum, I'd be way less prepared. I imagine support will be key for me as well. I'm glad I have a really great mentor right now who's helping me through this process. I grateful for her spending time helping me when she certainly does not have to (I am a volunteer in her lab). Without her, this would not even be possible. I just lucked into meeting her after attending one of her trainings and reaching out for her assistance implementing a couples EBP for PTSD in our VA. Then research came up and now I'm volunteering in her lab. A little luck doesn't hurt.
 
jmiah717 said:
I just lucked into meeting her after attending one of her trainings and reaching out for her assistance implementing a couples EBP for PTSD in our VA. Then research came up and now I'm volunteering in her lab. A little luck doesn't hurt.
Click to expand...
I don't think that was luck. That was work. I.e., what you need to do to get what you want. :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Members don't see this ad :)
I attended a non-funded program. I was one year out of college, working part time in a clinic helping individuals with dyslexia and reading, and working full time in a cognitive neurophysiology lab. Given my limited experience at the time (only one poster), I rightfully only got into one PhD program at the time. Getting the acceptance letter was actually a shock to be honest.

When I was accepted, my family and significant other pushed me to accept the offer. My father, an accountant, was not worried about my prospects to pay the loans back. He came to this conclusion after I provided him with Jerry Sweet's article in The Clinical Neuropsychologist that discusses salary ranges, and after I expressed my interest in board certification and also medicolegal/forensic work. The decision to accept wasn't completely uninformed. But there was also some misinformation. I was told that most students stay in the area for internship, which financially would have been more practical. What the program did not say is that the students that generally relocate are the neuropsych focused students because NY does not have as many neuro heavy internships. It is much stronger for neuropsych externships and fellowships. Also, I was told most people apply in their 4th year for internship. Again, I was not told that most neuro students take 5-6 years due to the competition level.

Ultimately emotions did play a role. I was 22 and strongly influenced by my family as I trust their judgement. My significant other and I also were not interested in long distance relationships (although that happened this year on internship and next year for postdoc). There was also some important omissions from the program, although I did not know better at the time to ask certain questions.

All in all, I received great clinical and research training, have worked with some knowledgeable and well-known neuropsychologists, got a great internship and an even better fellowship, and have become heavily involved in NAN and Division 40 Student committees. It will be hard, but I will make it work. I see myself applying non-stop for K awards and RO1 grants, as well as spending a lot of time on medicolegal/forensic cases to pay down my loans.

So long story short, emotions and also external pressures can play a large role for some people.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I applaud your candor and apparent work ethic, but I do want to highlight something I see often here. I think people underestimate the difficulty of forensic/medicolegal work and overestimate how much they will make from it. Some people do exceptionally well with it. Many do just as well and sometimes worse than if they were working a full-time hospoital job. The Sweet survey skews towards the former. It's a fine plan, I just want people to look at it more realistically.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Mine is partially funded, but I did not want to waste time and money being rejected from PhD programs, like I saw many of my friends in undergrad did. They are still pursuing a master's just to be able to apply to fully funded program, and I did not think it was worth taking out 40k in loans and wasting two years to get a master's first. Not wasting but you know what I mean, not in the field.
 
A master's degree is not necessary for admittance into fully funded PhD programs. I'd venture that the vast majority of students do not come in with one. Many programs really don't even admit master's students.
 
Justanothergrad said:
That's a line of reasoning I've never been quite able to understand.
Click to expand...

Fair, not saying I neccesarily agree with it. The ones that I have known, and/or been in, were R1 places that had a great number of applications. Their general reasoning was that they could be fairly picky, with students who did really well on objective measures (e.g., GPA, GRE, etc) having been less likely to have gone for a masters. Most people who have very good stats, but need research experience, get research experience in some way rather than going the master's route, which I do agree with.
 
psydstudent2020 said:
Mine is partially funded, but I did not want to waste time and money being rejected from PhD programs, like I saw many of my friends in undergrad did. They are still pursuing a master's just to be able to apply to fully funded program, and I did not think it was worth taking out 40k in loans and wasting two years to get a master's first. Not wasting but you know what I mean, not in the field.
Click to expand...
1. I wouldn't say I've wasted my time in working instead of just applying to and accepting admission to an unfunded or partially funded program. In fact, in the end it will probably have been wiser, as I've saved up a good amount of money and will expend less money in tuition and living expenses than I otherwise would have in an unfunded program. Moreover, I've gained valuable experience that has better prepared me for grad school (e.g. research, psychometry and neuropsych assessment, etc.) and likely allowed me to be admitted to better programs than I would otherwise have been able to obtain without this work experience.

2. Many people complete master's programs to improve their chances of gaining admission, because there's something less than desirable in their application package, e.g. lower GPA, lower GRE scores, etc. I didn't want or need to do this, but I can definitely see the value in some cases.
 
WisNeuro said:
I applaud your candor and apparent work ethic, but I do want to highlight something I see often here. I think people underestimate the difficulty of forensic/medicolegal work and overestimate how much they will make from it. Some people do exceptionally well with it. Many do just as well and sometimes worse than if they were working a full-time hospoital job. The Sweet survey skews towards the former. It's a fine plan, I just want people to look at it more realistically.
Click to expand...

Since it isn't completely pertinent to this thread, do you mind if I direct message you about the Sweet survey and forensic/medicolegal work? I have a few questions about the points you raise.
 
I can speak a little about this. Not a PhD program, but I signed up for a VERY expensive 2-year masters program a couple years back. My ugrad GPA was horrid and I literally had ZERO research experience, so the masters program itself wasn't a bad idea. (I'm also looking at several couseling psych programs that require a masters prior to admission.) The bad idea was the fact that I chose a program that cost $60k/yr in tuition.

You read that right.

I was really naive back then and abused debt a lot (I had $25k in credit card debt.......). But on the more psychological side, here was my train of thought at the time:
  • "I'm trying to make a huge career change. This is the ONLY school that accepted me, and I am terrified that if I don't take this chance, I won't get another one."
  • "I am tired of spinning my wheels in dead end jobs. I need to feel like I'm moving forward, crave the feeling of progress. This will make me feel like I'm progressing."
  • "The tuition is high, yes, but the university is very well known. It is in a city with a plethora of opportunities (Boston). I feel like I will have more open doors if I attend school in a big city."
  • "All of my friends are going to graduate school, I need to get on it or else I'll fall behind and therefore ruin my reputation."
So yes, 100% emotion. (I was also dealing with mental health issues at the time - another story for another day...) I grew up in a very shielded family - my parents never spoke about money, never explained things like debt or student loans to me. We were middle class but never wanted for money. I know it sounds outrageous, but when you've NEVER talked about money in your life, you really don't know how it works. When I graduated from college, I was essentially a big kid who had no idea how to adult. So I made bad decisions like the aforementioned masters program.

Thankfully I got my **** together and transferred to a program which is 20% the cost but just as good quality (and got a ton of scholarships to boot, whoo!) It continues to pain me when I see others who choose to attend wildly expensive PsyD and masters programs -- not because they're stupid, but because they simply didn't know any better, like me. I'm trying really hard nowadays to "give back" by mentoring younger college folks about the costs of education, because no one deserves to go through the **** I did.

I was THIS close to getting evicted because I couldn't afford rent on top of tuition. I literally went days without eating because I was broke. No education is worth that, especially when cheaper options exist.

/soapbox
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
chicandtoughness said:
I can speak a little about this. Not a PhD program, but I signed up for a VERY expensive 2-year masters program a couple years back. My ugrad GPA was horrid and I literally had ZERO research experience, so the masters program itself wasn't a bad idea. (I'm also looking at several couseling psych programs that require a masters prior to admission.) The bad idea was the fact that I chose a program that cost $60k/yr in tuition.

You read that right.

I was really naive back then and abused debt a lot (I had $25k in credit card debt.......). But on the more psychological side, here was my train of thought at the time:
  • "I'm trying to make a huge career change. This is the ONLY school that accepted me, and I am terrified that if I don't take this chance, I won't get another one."
  • "I am tired of spinning my wheels in dead end jobs. I need to feel like I'm moving forward, crave the feeling of progress. This will make me feel like I'm progressing."
  • "The tuition is high, yes, but the university is very well known. It is in a city with a plethora of opportunities (Boston). I feel like I will have more open doors if I attend school in a big city."
  • "All of my friends are going to graduate school, I need to get on it or else I'll fall behind and therefore ruin my reputation."
So yes, 100% emotion. (I was also dealing with MDD and BPD at the time - another story for another day...) I grew up in a very shielded family - my parents never spoke about money, never explained things like debt or student loans to me. We were middle class but never wanted for money. I know it sounds outrageous, but when you've NEVER talked about money in your life, you really don't know how it works. When I graduated from college, I was essentially a big kid who had no idea how to adult. So I made bad decisions like the aforementioned masters program.

Thankfully I got my **** together and transferred to a program which is 20% the cost but just as good quality (and got a ton of scholarships to boot, whoo!) It continues to pain me when I see others who choose to attend wildly expensive PsyD and masters programs -- not because they're stupid, but because they simply didn't know any better, like me. I'm trying really hard nowadays to "give back" by mentoring younger college folks about the costs of education, because no one deserves to go through the **** I did.

I was THIS close to getting evicted because I couldn't afford rent on top of tuition. I literally went days without eating because I was broke. No education is worth that, especially when cheaper options exist.

/soapbox
Click to expand...
Just wanted to let you know I appreciate your honesty and perspective. Glad you've made it to a program that costs less so you can afford to eat real food. I similarly had no idea how to manage money when I graduated undergrad and did a very poor job of doing so. I agree that if you , moving to a super expensive city for an AmeriCorps job (read- pay leaves you below the poverty line in an expensive city - though thankfully my credit card limit was 2k so that limited the amount of debt I could get myself into, but I sure got sick of eating the fried rice and bagels that I got for free if I visited late enough in the day). I distinctly remember the first time I walked into a grocery store once I had a real job and my finances under control and felt like I could buy any groceries I wanted without it having to be a math exercise to stay in budget. That was the first time I felt like a successful adult. But all that to say, my indecision about going back to school is probably what saved me from a similar situation of attending a too-expensive program. 21 year old me would have had the exact same though process you outlined above.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

memiller
Fully funded PsyD and PhD programs
Replies
13
Views
3K
The Cinnabon
The Cinnabon
The Cinnabon
Applying to Funded MSWs alongside PhDs?
Replies
6
Views
654
The Cinnabon
The Cinnabon
The Cinnabon
Dual Applying to Non-Clinical PhD programs
Replies
8
Views
694
Ollie123
O
C
Rutgers PSYD Programs/other fully funded programs
Replies
20
Views
7K
cbtqueen
C
B
Dissertation Grant Funding - Is it worth it?
Replies
28
Views
872
LM02
L
Top