Which schools should I apply to?

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This thread is full of preposterousness. I am very sad I took the time to read it in full.

@drsoni Definitely apply to UConn as well.

As far as everything else that's been said here, a few thoughts

- I'm not finished with my first year of school yet and there are so many people in my class who thought they wanted to specialize and no longer want to, and there are many more people who have no idea what they want to do yet
-Where the hell were all of you raised? I think maybe 3% of my high school graduating class or their families could name a single Ivy League institution besides Harvard. Seriously, some people are so bound up in prestige I feel sorry for them; their life is one giant pissing contest where they can never be satisfied because someone will always have some sort of bragging right they don't
- Undergrad performance/stats is not the end all and be all of how you'll do in school. As accurately stated earlier, it has no bearing on your hands skills, and it honestly doesn't have too much of a bearing on how you'll do in dental school. There are plenty of people with high GPAs who cheated on everything in undergrad or took a patty cake schedule with difficult classes at branch campuses/only 13-14 credits per semester, and plenty of people who don't have to work at all and can spend an entire summer leisurely preparing for the DAT with the best resources money can buy. On the other side of the same coin, there are plenty of incredibly intelligent people who aren't robots who go out twice a week in undergrad and enjoy their summers, and end up with a 3.5 and a 20 DAT but kill it in dental school because they're finally doing something that is up their alley
- UIC's dental school, Philly, Columbia, and Case Western are NOT in dangerous areas. I don't know how the hell anyone gets these impressions. Just because not everyone lives in a $400,000 house and gets private music lessons doesn't mean it's dangerous.
-Why does everyone think OMFS is somehow the pinnacle of success or competitiveness? You do know that only about 20-25% of kids who enter dental school specialize at all, and you're only competing against people who are willing to devote 4-6 more years of not having control over their time past the age of 26, right? There is actually not a large number of people applying to OMFS programs each year, and if I recall correctly at least half of them match somewhere
-For anyone who thinks you need to be a robot who does nothing to study to fulfill whatever career goal you might have, you are being counterproductive to an extreme extent. Nobody is going to want to spend 4-6 years with you if your only hobby is studying, and you attempt to connect with faculty to write you letters by brown-nosing. In order to make true connections and relationships with colleagues/superiors/patients/staff/significant others, you need to have true hobbies and passions outside the classroom.

I could go on for days. This thread has made my head spin. @drsoni best of luck with the application cycle, and let me know if you have any questions about UConn. I love it and would be happy to talk about it. Please make the decision that would be best for you personally and try not to take any advice on this site too seriously. Also, highly suggest branching out from the North Shore suburbs (assumption here but if you're from Illinois and think the Medical District is dangerous I might be on the right track). There is a lot of real America to see outside of Winnekta/Naperville/Evantson and other affluent suburbs. You may just like what you discover!
Lol I'm from northwestern suburbs. It's just that in last two years there have been a lot of bad incidents in medical district. Even one happened on East campus last semester, by BSB, if you know what that building is. The medical district is completely safe place during day light, it's just during dark hours, if you go to the wrong street, you might get unlucky. Just speaking from personal experience of myself and a few friends at UIC's med school.
And thank you for your advice! I know exactly what you mean with people taking 13-14 credit hours with easy classes and getting 4.0s lol. Luckily, I've always taken more than 18 credit hours (well expect 2 semesters), and taken mostly all science classes. I have my Pre-Health advisor to thank for that.

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This thread is full of preposterousness. I am very sad I took the time to read it in full.

@drsoni Definitely apply to UConn as well.

-Where the hell were all of you raised? I think maybe 3% of my high school graduating class or their families could name a single Ivy League institution besides Harvard. Seriously, some people are so bound up in prestige I feel sorry for them; their life is one giant pissing contest where they can never be satisfied because someone will always have some sort of bragging right they don't
No one talked of prestige bro. Just schools with high matchrates. If I wanted the benefits of med based curriculum and/or P/F, I would highly consider uconn too. It's those benefits people were discussing that were most important.
- Undergrad performance/stats is not the end all and be all of how you'll do in school. As accurately stated earlier, it has no bearing on your hands skills, and it honestly doesn't have too much of a bearing on how you'll do in dental school. There are plenty of people with high GPAs who cheated on everything in undergrad or took a patty cake schedule with difficult classes at branch campuses/only 13-14 credits per semester, and plenty of people who don't have to work at all and can spend an entire summer leisurely preparing for the DAT with the best resources money can buy. On the other side of the same coin, there are plenty of incredibly intelligent people who aren't robots who go out twice a week in undergrad and enjoy their summers, and end up with a 3.5 and a 20 DAT but kill it in dental school because they're finally doing something that is up their alley
Lol ok the robot thing again. Choosing to invest a few years of your life for huge returns seems to be pretty smart, no matter what your IQ is. The whole robot thing is what a lot of people say when they don't have the discipline to study as hard as others (not saying you are just the whole looking down on hard workers that is part of undergrad culture). Not everyone is a genius who 4.0s dental semesters without putting in work.

-Why does everyone think OMFS is somehow the pinnacle of success or competitiveness? You do know that only about 20-25% of kids who enter dental school specialize at all, and you're only competing against people who are willing to devote 4-6 more years of not having control over their time past the age of 26, right? There is actually not a large number of people applying to OMFS programs each year, and if I recall correctly at least half of them match somewhere
20/25% may specialize but that's not counting the people who tried to 1st sem, got bad grades, and realized they couldn't do it and became a part of the "I lost my interest in specializing" crowd. Likely part of the "those people putting in effort to specialize are gunners and/or not smart so they have to study all the time" crowd. It's the pinnacle of competitiveness because students at schools without the luxury of p/f have to be in the top 10-20 people to be competitive. That's why ortho would also be competitive by definition.
-For anyone who thinks you need to be a robot who does nothing to study to fulfill whatever career goal you might have, you are being counterproductive to an extreme extent. Nobody is going to want to spend 4-6 years with you if your only hobby is studying, and you attempt to connect with faculty to write you letters by brown-nosing. In order to make true connections and relationships with colleagues/superiors/patients/staff/significant others, you need to have true hobbies and passions outside the classroom.
Ok if they looked at extracurrics more than they did CBSE and rank I would agree with you. But clearly "robots" have made it work. A quick glance at the MD forum shows a few "robots" who scored the residencies of their dreams. A derm there put it pretty well: "work ass off for 4 years for a smooth sailing for the rest of their life careerwise".
Replies in red. Feel free to ignore the post, but for anyone else reading, consider these points.
 
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The "Gunner" Idea

Here's a nice thread from the MD forum. It's a pretty common thing for people to call others who work their butts off "gunners" in the med world. I guess it occurs in the dental world too. Replace gunner with robot or someone with no life. Some nice quotes:

"In MS1-2, I definitely had to actively hide how much I studied and the ways I did for fear of judgement from my friends. It was a really weird feeling.
I think all schools have some degree of this culture, which is perpetuated by projected insecurities as the above poster said."

". Calling someone who studies hard a gunner makes you a gunner because you're trying to actively sabotage another person by hurting their reputation. Why would it be any of your business what someone else does in their free time? A medical student's job is to study and know things. But you think that it's your job to judge people and call people names for working hard? you da real gunner"

"I usually hate the stereotypes that people make about certain generations, but I think that the new usage of 'gunner' as 'someone who tries hard' is very much a millenial thing."

"Some of us have to study as much as a "gunner" to stay above water. Don't give me that "you must be doing something wrong if you don't have everything down cold from studying 8 hours a day" Bull****. Med students (especially people in allo threads) need to actually realize, and I know they can because they're smart, that everyone's brains work differently."
 
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As someone who fit the "robot" description in undergrand and no longer fit it in dental school, I'm telling you you are spending time that is past the point of diminshing returns if you overwork yourself. Nobody is advocating slacking off and binge drinking; having a life outside the classroom makes you well rounded, personable, and a better candidate for anything and everything in life than someone who does not have outside interests. If you had to choose to spend 80+ hours per week for 6 years with someone, who would you choose? Is it incorrect to say you'd choose the person you think you'd have the best experience training?
Yea I'll stay active and such. I just would hate to not go 100%, not make a competitive rank, and be like wow if I had been slightly more "robotic" or sacrificed more, I maybe could have a whole different situation. And yes I understand I wouldn't want to work with someone with 0 interests as a resident, but you can temporarily drop or decrease interests when the going gets tough. An extreme example would be not watching a basketball game before a test if you're a ball guy. You still like basketball and can have convos like a normal dude about your passion, but you choose to forsake it for a small amount of time for a pretty big reward (if you score higher of course). Diminishing returns is definitely there if you start studying super random stuff that the prof says won't be on the test or something, but since there's so much info in dent/med school, studying 1 more hour would be like going over 1 more powerpoint or learning a few more lines of something which could very well make a difference on an exam.
 
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This thread is full of preposterousness. I am very sad I took the time to read it in full.

@drsoni Definitely apply to UConn as well.

As far as everything else that's been said here, a few thoughts

- I'm not finished with my first year of school yet and there are so many people in my class who thought they wanted to specialize and no longer want to, and there are many more people who have no idea what they want to do yet
-Where the hell were all of you raised? I think maybe 3% of my high school graduating class or their families could name a single Ivy League institution besides Harvard. Seriously, some people are so bound up in prestige I feel sorry for them; their life is one giant pissing contest where they can never be satisfied because someone will always have some sort of bragging right they don't
- Undergrad performance/stats is not the end all and be all of how you'll do in school. As accurately stated earlier, it has no bearing on your hands skills, and it honestly doesn't have too much of a bearing on how you'll do in dental school. There are plenty of people with high GPAs who cheated on everything in undergrad or took a patty cake schedule with difficult classes at branch campuses/only 13-14 credits per semester, and plenty of people who don't have to work at all and can spend an entire summer leisurely preparing for the DAT with the best resources money can buy. On the other side of the same coin, there are plenty of incredibly intelligent people who aren't robots who go out twice a week in undergrad and enjoy their summers, and end up with a 3.5 and a 20 DAT but kill it in dental school because they're finally doing something that is up their alley
- UIC's dental school, Philly, Columbia, and Case Western are NOT in dangerous areas. I don't know how the hell anyone gets these impressions. Just because not everyone lives in a $400,000 house and gets private music lessons doesn't mean it's dangerous.
-Why does everyone think OMFS is somehow the pinnacle of success or competitiveness? You do know that only about 20-25% of kids who enter dental school specialize at all, and you're only competing against people who are willing to devote 4-6 more years of not having control over their time past the age of 26, right? There is actually not a large number of people applying to OMFS programs each year, and if I recall correctly at least half of them match somewhere
-For anyone who thinks you need to be a robot who does nothing to study to fulfill whatever career goal you might have, you are being counterproductive to an extreme extent. Nobody is going to want to spend 4-6 years with you if your only hobby is studying, and you attempt to connect with faculty to write you letters by brown-nosing. In order to make true connections and relationships with colleagues/superiors/patients/staff/significant others, you need to have true hobbies and passions outside the classroom.

I could go on for days. This thread has made my head spin. @drsoni best of luck with the application cycle, and let me know if you have any questions about UConn. I love it and would be happy to talk about it. Please make the decision that would be best for you personally and try not to take any advice on this site too seriously. Also, highly suggest branching out from the North Shore suburbs (assumption here but if you're from Illinois and think the Medical District is dangerous I might be on the right track). There is a lot of real America to see outside of Winnekta/Naperville/Evantson and other affluent suburbs. You may just like what you discover!
As a D4 (for one more month!) I'd have to agree with this.
 
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Meh, you can get into OMFS from any school if you work hard and have the statistics to back it up, or if you stand out in other ways.
Dunno if this is just an anomaly, but Temple only matched 1/4 two years ago, and 0/3 this past year. So no, you can't really get into OMFS from any school, lol.
 
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Please tell me about your dental school experience.
You don't have to be in dental school to read other people's experiences or draw your own conclusions. If you see the post I had from an OMFS resident on here, he severely regretted not going to an ivy or at least not a p/f school. And if I was OP and saw one school with 0/3 and 1/4 OMFS match from a dental school, I would avoid it like the plague. My school has few OMFS but it's still better odds than that loll
 
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Please tell me about your dental school experience.

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You don't have to be in dental school to read other people's experiences or draw your own conclusions. If you see the post I had from an OMFS resident on here, he severely regretted not going to an ivy or at least not a p/f school. And if I was OP and saw one school with 0/3 and 1/4 OMFS match from a dental school, I would avoid it like the plague. My school has few OMFS but it's still better odds than that loll

You can extrapolate but in the end you haven't been through school or through the process.
 
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You can extrapolate but in the end you haven't been through school or through the process.
A D4 at Temple told him how many students matched into OMFS last year, and the year before that.

Why do you have to be in dental school to say that Temple probably isn't the best choice if you want to do OMFS?
 
You can extrapolate but in the end you haven't been through school or through the process.
Well everyone's experience will be unique. Your attending d school does not mean you know the ins and outs of other d schools, just your own. That's why reading about many people's experiences and extrapolating based on your own values seems better than saying "I'm not in d school therefore I will not make any extrapolations at all".
 
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You can post all the memes you like. In the end, you know nothing of the process and have about as good as chance of getting into OMFS as the OP does.

With all due respect sir, considering OP hasn't even applied to dental school yet I think that is false.

No one is saying you can only become an OMFS out of certain schools, they are just saying it is an easier task at certain schools than others. The numbers clearly show this. Unless you expect everyone in this thread to believe no one in Temple's class wanted to become an OMFS, you'll have to come up with a more logical argument than "You haven't been there yet".
 
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With all due respect sir, considering OP hasn't even applied to dental school yet I think that is false.

No one is saying you can only become an OMFS out of certain schools, they are just saying it is an easier task at certain schools than others. The numbers clearly show this. Unless you expect everyone in this thread to believe no one in Temple's class wanted to become an OMFS, you'll have to come up with a more logical argument than "You haven't been there yet".
Yep. People trying to turn our points into a "you can't go to omfs unless you go to an ivy XD" assertion are wasting thread space.
 
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With all due respect sir, considering OP hasn't even applied to dental school yet I think that is false.

No one is saying you can only become an OMFS out of certain schools, they are just saying it is an easier task at certain schools than others. The numbers clearly show this. Unless you expect everyone in this thread to believe no one in Temple's class wanted to become an OMFS, you'll have to come up with a more logical argument than "You haven't been there yet".

No, but the odds are he's going to get accepted to a school. It's not particularly hard to get into dental school with acceptable undergrad scores and a good DAT.

The fallacy is assuming that one school not having success over the span of a short period is representative not being able to specialize from non "elite" schools.

And yes, having school experience will help you. Because you'll interact with faculty who have been there and been on that side of the process. Because you'll interact with current residents who can tell you what their experience was and how they optimized their application. Because you'll extern, and learn more about the application process and the key things that your programs of interest are looking for. A lot of the things that you may hold as gospel right now will be overturned as you progress through your dental school years.

The formula for success in applying to OMS is pretty easy for most programs. CBSE, Class rank, GPA, other. Choice of school is really not a factor. Yes, you will probably get an advantage from taking med school classes with the med school. Almost certainly, in fact. This will reflect in your CBSE score. And remember that many programs give residents veto power over qualified applicants who they believe won't mesh well with the program.

But in the end, programs are looking for people who can succeed academically and who they think will work hard and be good residents. The name of your school is just one data point and not a significant one if not backed up by results, personality, and work ethic. Plenty of people out there who can kill the CBSE and Step, but who would make terrible residents; that's why people go unmatched with 70+ CBSEs every year.
 
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Sure! Ivy league schools make your chances higher to get accepted into any speciality program, but that doesn't mean other schools will prevent you from going into any specialty program. Now if any pre dent want to do ortho, endo, onfs, whatever... which again, I don't see the logic since they don't even know how to change burs on a high speed.... anyways, if you go to an ivy league school and lose motivation for specializing or don't perform well in DS. Then enjoy paying the 200k+ back and none of the people on here will help you pay a penny back.
 
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No, but the odds are he's going to get accepted to a school. It's not particularly hard to get into dental school with acceptable undergrad scores and a good DAT.

The fallacy is assuming that one school not having success over the span of a short period is representative not being able to specialize from non "elite" schools.

And yes, having school experience will help you. Because you'll interact with faculty who have been there and been on that side of the process. Because you'll interact with current residents who can tell you what their experience was and how they optimized their application. Because you'll extern, and learn more about the application process and the key things that your programs of interest are looking for. A lot of the things that you may hold as gospel right now will be overturned as you progress through your dental school years.

The formula for success in applying to OMS is pretty easy for most programs. CBSE, Class rank, GPA, other. Choice of school is really not a factor. Yes, you will probably get an advantage from taking med school classes with the med school. Almost certainly, in fact. This will reflect in your CBSE score. And remember that many programs give residents veto power over qualified applicants who they believe won't mesh well with the program.

But in the end, programs are looking for people who can succeed academically and who they think will work hard and be good residents. The name of your school is just one data point and not a significant one if not backed up by results, personality, and work ethic. Plenty of people out there who can kill the CBSE and Step, but who would make terrible residents; that's why people go unmatched with 70+ CBSEs every year.

No one here is saying the name of your school is what will get you into residency. I stated this quite clearly when I mentioned UCLA and UCONN as other school that are friendly to those who want to specialize.

The formula for success in applying to OMS is pretty easy for most programs. CBSE, Class rank, GPA, other.

You just said what we have been saying this entire thread. Class rank and GPA are factors of specializing. Certain schools (irrelevant of the name of the school) are more forgiving for these factors than others.

Could OP possibly specialize at his state school? Yes! Will it be easier to do this at certain schools than others? The data shows the answer to this question is yes.
 
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Sure! Ivy league schools make your chances higher to get accepted into any speciality program, but that doesn't mean other schools will prevent you from going into any specialty program. Now if any pre dent want to do ortho, endo, onfs, whatever... which again, I don't see the logic since they don't even know how to change burs on a high speed.... anyways, if you go to an ivy league school and lose motivation for specializing or don't perform well in DS. Then enjoy paying the 200k+ back and none of the people on here will help you pay a penny back.

Not just Ivy League schools, schools such as UCONN and UCLA as well. And of course it won't prevent you, the road will just be harder. Some will make it regardless, others won't. The opportunity cost of this risk makes the increased cost of some schools worth it to them. Whether this is a smar choice is ultimately opinion.
 
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Not just Ivy League schools, schools such as UCONN and UCLA as well. And of course it won't prevent you, the road will just be harder. Some will make it regardless, others won't. The opportunity cost of this risk makes the increased cost of some schools worth it to them. Whether this is a smar choice is ultimately opinion.
If a pre dent isn't sure about making a speciality program from a state school and has the chance to go to an ivy league or other schools you mentioned then I suugest that pre dent to run to those schools. Don't book a flight but RUN.
 
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No one here is saying the name of your school is what will get you into residency. I stated this quite clearly when I mentioned UCLA and UCONN as other school that are friendly to those who want to specialize.



You just said what we have been saying this entire thread. Class rank and GPA are factors of specializing. Certain schools (irrelevant of the name of the school) are more forgiving for these factors than others.

Could OP possibly specialize at his state school? Yes! Will it be easier to do this at certain schools than others? The data shows the answer to this question is yes.

So how do you know that the applicants that applied from Temple were otherwise as equally competitive as the ones from Columbia? Without that data it's just assumptions.

There are plenty of non-Ivy schools not named UCONN or UCLA that get multiple OMFS matches per year. If I recall correctly, the year I graduated all my classmates who wanted OMFS ended up matching. We also had a large number, if not a majority, of our top 10% who could have matched anywhere in any specialty but chose to pursue general dentistry. In the end, without more information, all that you can take from the Temple example listed above is that no one matched from that school in that year - you don't know whether the applicants were academically comparable to applicants who did match.

The fact of the matter is that a good student with a good score from any dental school can easily match. I think we're in agreement there and I think we're largely in agreement on the principles, as you stated.

For many applicants, the cost of the school will be a huge factor and for those applicants the state school may well be the better choice. Some applicants will have spouses or dependents that they must support as well, and to them the expensive schools may not be an option. Some may have previous debt load that, following residency, could put them into seven-figure debt. Others may have parental support that allow them to attend any school of their choosing.

The people here stating that the state school applicants don't have a chance are the ones who are simply insecure about their own decisions.
 
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So how do you know that the applicants that applied from Temple were otherwise as equally competitive as the ones from Columbia? Without that data it's just assumptions.

You're right. It is an assumption. However, we can look at the data over several years and see certain schools get much higher numbers of people into residencies than others.

There are plenty of non-Ivy schools not named UCONN or UCLA that get multiple OMFS matches per year. If I recall correctly, the year I graduated all my classmates who wanted OMFS ended up matching.

Of course there are, those two are just the first schools that aren't Ivy that popped off the top of my head. And again, getting two people into OMFS vs 18 is not the same thing. As for you saying all the people who "wanted" it got it, I would go to those in the middle and bottom of your class and see how they felt about it. A lot of people want to match until they realize they aren't close to being top 10%.

The people here stating that the state school applicants don't have a chance are the ones who are simply insecure about their own decisions.

I don't think anyone here is saying they have no chance at a state school, they are just saying they have a better chance at schools who cater themselves to putting butts into residencies.

I agree with you that I don't think we are that far off in principle, it's just ticky tacky bits of language that start these flame threads of state schools vs. Ivy. I think it's safe to say that no matter what side you are on, when you tell someone who has committed 8-14 years of their lives to the pursuit of a profession, the idea that they "weren't smart enough" to make the same school choice you would is not gonna go over well. Every situation is different and people should just respect other peoples choices/opinions without it becoming a flame war.
 
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It's not just about the specialty rates of the program, at least not for me in relation to the program I chose. The med school curriculum equips us to integrate the entirety of a patients health with the oral state of affairs and approach treating someone in a holistic way, throughly taking into account all plausible connections. Furthermore , this approach has been not only demonstrates effective , but logically makes sense . Here's a simple thought : people go to the dentist on average around twice a year , even when they're healthy , for a cleaning , on the other hand , they go to a physician predominantly only when sick, so we are often the first line of defense to screen for a myriad of issues , this idea has actually been brought up in quite a few classes we've had. We have a sizable responsibility to our patients to be able to recognize the warning signs to quite a few of the most common cause of mortality and or life changing diseases , regardless of whether or not they are dental related , but especially if symptoms manifest orally. Therefore , the option to specialize is not the only reason I'm grateful I chose to attend Columbia with its highly biomedical integrative curriculum and approach. Will all the med knowledge I'm getting beyond the average didactic classes at a dental school be of use to me, given the fact I don't think I wanna pursue OMFS and I actually wanna do a diff specialty or GP and am still deciding ? tbh The answer to that question is , I may one day see a rare symptom and recognize it because of that intense training and my extra effort in these classes for whatever it does or doesn't help me achieve, may save someone's life one day, and again it may not , but I'm def willing to take the time to learn the extra material and am grateful I have the opportunity to. In short , knowledge is power , and to assume people only attend these Ivy's to specialize is foolish, it's one of the reasons , but not the only one. As Ty Jacobs has mentioned and I believe I have as well somewhere on here , we are also getting a state of the art new clinic when we enter our major clinical phase of our education at the end of next year. Do research before making blanket statements and assumptions behind reasoning for people allocating capital into a certain endeavor . Being that we're smart enough to get into dental school, we should all be clever enough to at least be well read before writing a generalization .... best of luck op, cheers


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Another perspective to this convo! Sure I see your point and I understand why you picked. Columbia. But at the end of the day, each one of us on this thread has different goals, expectations, plans, etc. Do we share the same perspective? Definitely not but i don't see anything wrong with your decision. You made your decision and all I can say is well done, congratulations. I'm not against the idea of going to any of the ivy/big dental schools. Heck, you might see me at Penn or UCLA in the fall of 2018. All I'm saying is, IF (underline if) you want to specialize, going to an ivy league school isn't the only way. I'm not saying that ivy league schools are trash and have nothing to offer. Every dental school out there has something unique to offer, just like how Columbia was able to attract you, other schools like UIC, SIU, Indiana also have pros that other schools can't match. Everyone has their own opinion, and the good thing is any pre dent out there can ignore this whole thread and pick the school they think is best for them.
 
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I agree with you 100% on temporarily giving up on hobbies in order to maximize your time. As a matter of fact, I literally did not watch one pitch of the freaking Cubs vs Indians Game 7 of the World Series. The fact that those two teams were even playing each other in the World Series was tremendously historic, let alone a Connecticut native hitting a home run in the bottom of the 8th and a 108 year drought being broken in extra innings with Terry Francona duking it out vs The Epstein. I don't regret not watching; I needed to do what I needed to do to pass.

However, forgoing social functions and getting involved in school, as well as skipping out on the activities and hobbies you participate in on a daily basis that make you who were are, is counterproductive to your career goals. I used to not think burnout is real. Now I really do see the value in putting the book down and going out for a run. I know that you may not believe, which is okay. When I was where you are now I wouldn't have believed me. I just hope you eventually find out for yourself what it is the point of diminishing returns. It really can be stuff that isn't "super random stuff that the prof says won't be on the test or something". That one extra pass of a powerpoint lecture or that one extra reread of a textbook passage is past the point of diminshing returns. The varitey of ways with which you can better use your time is really remarkable. Will I have to turn into more of a "robot" when the time comes to study for the CBSE? Absolutely. In a situation like this, the way you seem advocate approaching school is necessary in a high stakes/reward situation such as that. What I really hope you find out on your own and not through someone telling you is that there is such a thing as running out of gas. You need to save your gas for situations when you really need it.

For what it's worth, all the upperclassmen/people I've shadowed and talk to who are currently higher on the totem pole in my hopeful career progression all seem to know when to take the L and not worry about things that are out of their control/take up too much time and energy to really affect in a substantial way. They all seemed to have figured out what is necessary to do, and do it while not coming across as someone who cares way too much, if that makes sense.
You fooked up. That game was my entire life fulfilled in a sweet battle of extra innings.
 
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Is the curriculum really that different in ivy leagues that CBSE scores will differ??? Or could it be the person on average who goes to an ivy has more natural talent then the in-state student?

**Everyone who goes to dental school is probably a hard worker, so I think that is even across the field**
 
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Is the curriculum really that different in ivy leagues that CBSE scores will differ??? Or could it be the person on average who goes to an ivy has more natural talent then the in-state student?

**Everyone who goes to dental school is probably a hard worker, so I think that is even across the field**
Ivies teach med based. CBSE is a smaller version of usmle Part 1 (which is the medical student test). We can easily see the connection. Unless learning about dental materials somehow applies to the CBSE lol
 
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Another perspective to this convo! Sure I see your point and I understand why you picked. Columbia. But at the end of the day, each one of us on this thread has different goals, expectations, plans, etc. Do we share the same perspective? Definitely not but i don't see anything wrong with your decision. You made your decision and all I can say is well done, congratulations. I'm not against the idea of going to any of the ivy/big dental schools. Heck, you might see me at Penn or UCLA in the fall of 2018. All I'm saying is, IF (underline if) you want to specialize, going to an ivy league school isn't the only way. I'm not saying that ivy league schools are trash and have nothing to offer. Every dental school out there has something unique to offer, just like how Columbia was able to attract you, other schools like UIC, SIU, Indiana also have pros that other schools can't match. Everyone has their own opinion, and the good thing is any pre dent out there can ignore this whole thread and pick the school they think is best for them.
Yea no one said going to ivies was the only way..
 
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Ivies teach med based. CBSE is a smaller version of usmle Part 1 (which is the medical student test). We can easily see the connection. Unless learning about dental materials somehow applies to the CBSE lol

Okay, thanks. I would have thought the curriculums would be pretty much the same because everyone takes the same boards...I'm not sure why you made a crack about dental materials???

I am guessing that ivies spend more time talking about this based on your response, though.
 
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You're right. It is an assumption. However, we can look at the data over several years and see certain schools get much higher numbers of people into residencies than others.

Here's the thing, though. Can you prove that that's because of the med-based curriculum? Could it be a self-fulfilling prophecy where top OMS aspirants are choosing to apply to Ivys and other "med curriculum" schools because they perceive an advantage? I'm not sure there's a way to quantify that. We can safely make the assumption that Ivies are more selective than some state schools (and I hate the "state school" moniker - at my program right now we have multiple state school graduates). Given that they may already be taking students who are statistically more competitive going into dental school, would it be much surprise that those students are more competitive out on the other end of school? Is it the school or the med curriculum that does that? Or is it biased because they're already starting with a pool of aspirants that were already more competitive to begin with?

Back when I graduated, the CBSE was a newfangled thing that was just starting. Schools were teaching to the NBDE Part I. The first few classes of those who took the CBSE are just hitting the real world. Has any study been done (even an informal study of the historical success rates on this forum) showing an increased bias towards "OMS heavy" schools as the CBSE came into play? It'd be an interesting project from some predent on this forum with too much extra time.

Of course there are, those two are just the first schools that aren't Ivy that popped off the top of my head. And again, getting two people into OMFS vs 18 is not the same thing. As for you saying all the people who "wanted" it got it, I would go to those in the middle and bottom of your class and see how they felt about it. A lot of people want to match until they realize they aren't close to being top 10%.

I didn't pay too much attention back then but the guys and girls who were shooting for OMS all made it in. My class put tons of people in residencies; I think we put 8 or 9 total out of my class into OMS. And I didn't go to a state school, but it's not necessarily an OMS feeder school either although they do put lots of students into all specialties.


I don't think anyone here is saying they have no chance at a state school, they are just saying they have a better chance at schools who cater themselves to putting butts into residencies.

Again, the poster I quoted above stated otherwise.
 
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It's not just about the specialty rates of the program, at least not for me in relation to the program I chose. The med school curriculum equips us to integrate the entirety of a patients health with the oral state of affairs and approach treating someone in a holistic way, thoroughly taking into account all plausible connections. Furthermore , this approach has not only been demonstrated to be effective , but logically makes sense . Here's a simple thought : people go to the dentist on average around twice a year , even when they're healthy , for a cleaning , on the other hand , they go to a physician predominantly only when sick, so we are often the first line of defense to screen for a myriad of issues , this idea has actually been brought up in quite a few classes we've had. We have a sizable responsibility to our patients to be able to recognize the warning signs to quite a few of the most common cause of mortality and or life changing diseases , regardless of whether or not they are dental related , but especially if symptoms manifest orally.

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Dude, they hammer that perspective at schools without a med curriculum too. Dental school basic sciences and path may not be as in depth but between that and their medicine curriculum, you're taught more than enough to make those connections.

But the idea of dentists being medical surveillance is one that organized dentistry has been pushing for years. It is not limited to your school by any means.
 
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Therefore , the option to specialize is not the only reason I'm grateful I chose to attend Columbia with its highly biomedical integrative curriculum and approach. Will all the med knowledge I'm getting beyond the average didactic classes at a dental school be of use to me, given the fact I don't think I wanna pursue OMFS and I actually wanna do a diff specialty or GP and am still deciding ?
That's a bold statement cotton...

How much do you know about the curriculum of other schools?
 
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is info about the median or avg cbse that students get at different schools out there anywhere? also info about how many times students typically take the cbse per school? that type of data is really needed to substantiate discussion like this
 
is info about the median or avg cbse that students get at different schools out there anywhere? also info about how many times students typically take the cbse per school? that type of data is really needed to substantiate discussion like this
If one school teaches a med curriculum which is what the cbae is based on I have no clue why you would need firm data to know that would be an advantage over one that teaches dental biomedical sciences. It's like asking if dental or med school prepares you better for the nbde
 
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Yeah... if only you can understand what I'm saying.
You literally said going to ivies isn't the only way when no one in this thread implied otherwise. The pro ivies/pf ppl are saying it's an advantage which it is lol
 
Okay, thanks. I would have thought the curriculums would be pretty much the same because everyone takes the same boards...I'm not sure why you made a crack about dental materials???

I am guessing that ivies spend more time talking about this based on your response, though.
No omfs takes cbse which is med based. Made a crack on dental materials bc while some dental schools are teaching that or more dental related biomedical sciences, the med based ones are going deeper into info u need for the cbse.
 
You literally said going to ivies isn't the only way when no one in this thread implied otherwise. The pro ivies/pf ppl are saying it's an advantage which it is lol

Boom there we go. I've just been silently lurking this thread but it's driving me nuts now.

No one is saying you can't specialize at non-ivies. Anyone who says that is using a strawman. What people are saying (and when looking at the stats it's undeniably true) is that ivies can give you a leg up on specializing in whatever you choose. That does not mean you can breeze by and still specialize in OMFS. You're still going to need to put in a lot of hard work and ace the CBSE/DAT2 while also completing other extracurriculars such as research. BUT, ivies seem to give their students an advantage through the connections they gain with the program directors of the residencies, through the top of the line research opportunities/funding (that other state schools also may have such as UCSF), and through a curriculum that is very medicine focused.

I'm not sure why people are so averse to saying that the Ivies can give you an advantage. It's not a personal insult to you if you chose a state school over an Ivy. That's a personal decision every one in that position will need to make and that decision will likely require balancing a bunch of pros and cons apart from just specializing.
 
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If one school teaches a med curriculum which is what the cbae is based on I have no clue why you would need firm data to know that would be an advantage over one that teaches dental biomedical sciences. It's like asking if dental or med school prepares you better for the nbde

i don't question that there is an advantage at those schools, we are wondering how much. cbse scores are another quantifiable measure in addition to # of matches per year. the more information that applicants have at their disposal, the better.

based on the almost 0% knowledge that i have on the cbse, i wouldn't be surprised to find out that cbse scores are significantly higher at schools with a med curriculum, but it would be interesting to know if perhaps they are actually not in comparison to all schools w/o a med curriculum.
 
i don't question that there is an advantage at those schools, we are wondering how much. cbse scores are another quantifiable measure in addition to # of matches per year. the more information that applicants have at their disposal, the better.

based on the almost 0% knowledge that i have on the cbse, i wouldn't be surprised to find out that cbse scores are significantly higher at schools with a med curriculum, but it would be interesting to know if perhaps they are actually not in comparison to all schools w/o a med curriculum.
Data would be nice but here's a good way of knowing their cbse is high without it. Without rank, what's the only other major factor for omfs? Cbse. And since most Ivies are p f, one can assume cbse scores are higher. Research and extracurriculars do not make or break the applicant. Cbse and rank do
 
Boom there we go. I've just been silently lurking this thread but it's driving me nuts now.

No one is saying you can't specialize at non-ivies. Anyone who says that is using a strawman. What people are saying (and when looking at the stats it's undeniably true) is that ivies can give you a leg up on specializing in whatever you choose. That does not mean you can breeze by and still specialize in OMFS. You're still going to need to put in a lot of hard work and ace the CBSE/DAT2 while also completing other extracurriculars such as research. BUT, ivies seem to give their students an advantage through the connections they gain with the program directors of the residencies, through the top of the line research opportunities/funding (that other state schools also may have such as UCSF), and through a curriculum that is very medicine focused.

I'm not sure why people are so averse to saying that the Ivies can give you an advantage. It's not a personal insult to you if you chose a state school over an Ivy. That's a personal decision every one in that position will need to make and that decision will likely require balancing a bunch of pros and cons apart from just specializing.
I, like many others, believe that these advantages are vague at best and it is absurd to gamble $200K+ for them.
 
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I, like many others, believe that these advantages are vague at best and it is absurd to gamble $200K+ for them.

Let's leave that up to the individual. Everyone has different priorities and different financial backgrounds.
 
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I don't get all the hate on Ivies on SDN. With living costs factored out, my COA is many degrees lower than most other private schools. It's a no brainer to attend if that is the case. Getting into a state school these day's is like flipping a Dungeon's and Dragons dice
 
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Let's leave that up to the individual. Everyone has different priorities and different financial backgrounds.
Yep. And the advantages aren't vague. Unless he meant to use a better word. The advantages are pretty concrete (teaching for cbse, p/f, high matchrates+matches, no ranks or more lenient rankings, etc)
 
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