Which schools should I apply to?

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If you think that, then OP can clearly go to a state school and still make it into an omfs program... safe route? With those stats.... ehh I'll take the 200k less route and bet on myself
true his stats are about top 5% among accepted applicants at some state schools. I googled dental statistics, and a TMDSAS one came up. For accepted statistics, 24-25 is about top 4% of the class of 2020. 26-30 is top 1%.

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High UG stats show you are smart enough and capable. The question is, will you have that same successful mindset in dental school?
yea for the most part it does. there are definitely cases of it not happening (ppl wrecking MCAT not doing as hot in med school) but overall I would bet that being a good student in undergrad and having a DAT that's in top 10% of your acccepted class should be a sign you can at LEAST be top quarter if you work your ass off.
 
yea for the most part it does. there are definitely cases of it not happening (ppl wrecking MCAT not doing as hot in med school) but overall I would bet that being a good student in undergrad and having a DAT that's in top 10% of your acccepted class should be a sign you can at LEAST be top quarter if you work your ass off.
It likely does. Most ppl in the top of their class work the hardest and smartest. If you are working hard and its not translating, its time to change your methods. Its a game
 
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Nope. Because p/f curriculum and ranking not being a big factor in those schools, competitive classmates =/= lowering your chances. That's why Columbia had 18/19 OMFS matches (prob a lot of peds and orthos and other specialties too) and penn had 12/12.

The bolded statement is definitely false LOL. If you put equal work in a med based curriculum, you would be so much more prepared for the CBSE than if you put in that amount of work into a dental biomedical sciences curriculum.

Finally, your last paragraph I don't agree either. If OMFS median is 390 and dental OWNERS is 180 (less now I believe and on a continual decline), within like 3-4 years you would earn it back and then start outearning. And please let's keep the discussion on medians, NOT outliers (every predent thinks they are "good businesspeople".

Columbus had a 18/19 match rate for OMS!? Wow


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It likely does. Most ppl in the top of their class work the hardest and smartest. If you are working hard and its not translating, its time to change your methods. Its a game
You should definitely change methods if things aren't working. However, I was just reading a post on SDN MD where a student said they were working more than their peers, following study habits of successful people, changing them when they weren't working, and STILL couldn't be top quarter. Hope that does not happen to any of us here.
 
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Columbus had a 18/19 match rate for OMS!? Wow


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yes. if anyone is questioning this I can look for the matchrates. There was a thread that listed harvard 7/7, columbia 18/19, and penn 12/12.
 
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You should definitely change methods if things aren't working. However, I was just reading a post on SDN MD where a student said they were working more than their peers, following study habits of successful people, changing them when they weren't working, and STILL couldn't be top quarter. Hope that does not happen to any of us here.
Some people just aren't meant to be in the top 15% of your class
 
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Some people just aren't meant to be in the top 15% of your class
This is true. But we won't know who it will be until we're in dental school. That's why some people opt for the safe route like feralis and tyjacobs.
 
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Wow op. Good luck. I have a 3.90 Gpa and thought to take a nibble at Harvard, not anymore. I feel inferior now lol.
 
This is true. But we won't know who it will be until we're in dental school. That's why some people opt for the safe route like feralis and tyjacobs.
And it's not a gamble I'm willing to take. I believe in myself no matter where I go
 
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Btw there's a dental student in this thread who chose the cheaper route and said it was smart to do so. Here's a post by someone on the other side of that coin. OP please read this one it's pretty useful.

I'm not taking that for granted, I just didn't specifically address it...I absolutely agree with you. The point of my post was to say that for SOME PEOPLE, the school they select will have a large influence on IF they go on to specialize and WHERE they go on to specialize.

I certainly believe that there are many individuals (and probably the most in OMFS because of how unique it is and the amount of dedication it requires) who would match into their first choice REGARDLESS of where they did dental school. And I think a lot of the people on this board who post are the success stories and the individuals who would've MATCHED it from any school. They confidently tell you "choose the cheapest!" because they could've made it work from anywhere. The cheapest school for these people is the best choice.

But we almost NEVER hear from the people, like myself, who came in knowing they wanted to specialize and then didn't. And, anecdotally, I think there are a lot of these people whose experiences go overlooked. As an OMFS resident, I cannot tell you how many dentists (GPs, Peds, Anesthesia, you name it!) find out I'm in OMFS and tell me right away that they wanted to do OMFS but didn't because _________. I can think of 2 people this week that did this! So there are a substantial amount of dentists out there that wanted to specialize, but didn't...and there are a lot of factors that could have swayed them obviously, but choosing a school based ONLY upon money most likely played a small to significant role.

I'm the confirmed N=1 that chose the cheapest school and regretted it. And I simply want to be the one on this board who suggests to applicants that cost may be the heaviest weighted factor when choosing a dental school, but it shouldn't be the entire basis for the decision.

PS - sorry for the grammar/spelling errors I'm writing this on my ridiculously cracked iPhone.
 
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Normally I respect your posts, but you're seriously saying 390k/year is crap? You have to be joking. You really think making 390k+ for 25 years is not worth an extra 100k in loans? My parents combined make 10% of that yearly salary, lol.


You're joking right? As an OMFS you can potentially have the lifestyle of a busier dentist (post residency obviously, private practice) and the income of competitive MD specialties.

And 390k is just an average. You'll likely be making more than double that within a decade of working


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And 390k is just an average. You'll likely be making more than double that within a decade of working


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eh you could say that about general dent or other specialties. A stronger argument would be the upward trend in specialist income and the downward trend in general incomes (as of recent data).
 
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yes. if anyone is questioning this I can look for the matchrates. There was a thread that listed harvard 7/7, columbia 18/19, and penn 12/12.

See, this is insane. Out of 19 hard working and ambitious students, 18 matched to a very competitive residency. Not only this, but 18 people had the ability to share the attention of a select few OMFS faculty, and the ability to distinguish them self among their peers. This is an INSANE match rate.


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Whatever all of our disagreements are on what specializing is worth, best of luck to all of you in dental school and beyond. Hope the discussion is valuable to the OP.
 
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Columbia was the only school where I felt comfortable to talk about me wanting to specialize, because that's something they have a clear interest in. Saying you are only interested in specializing at a GP heavy school is not wise.


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True. I didn't bring it up at other school interviews and ended up declining penn in the long run anyways.
 
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You probably won't, but I highly recommend you browse MD forums of SDN. Good study tips but also some good reality checks. Plenty of people have the "mindset" to score 240+ on the step 1 or to be top quarter, studying literally hours on end, using all the study habits upperclassmen recommend, and going to their schools study center or posting on SDN for more tips. Yet many still fail to achieve the goals they wanted. It's pretty rude to assume everyone who didn't achieve their goal didn't have the mindset to do so. Not everyone is going to be the top of every bell curve they see just because they "BELIEVE".

Sounds like something an anime villain would say :D
 
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If I can't do it, I didn't want it
Didn't make it to the NBA? You didn't want it bro.

Didn't make it to the NFL? You didn't want it bro.

Didn't kill Frieza with Spirit Bomb? You didn't want it bro.

Edit: Someone should make this a meme. Call it "Optimistic Maga Bro:" He can do anything if he puts his mind to it!
 
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Didn't make it to the NBA? You didn't want it bro.

Didn't make it to the NFL? You didn't want it bro.

Didn't kill Frieza with Spirit Bomb? You didn't want it bro.

Edit: Someone should make this a meme. Call it "Optimistic Maga Bro:" He can do anything if he puts his mind to it!
Screen Shot 2017-04-21 at 7.16.27 PM.png
 
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Relax guys, a person with a high 3.9+ GPA, and a DAT higher 20s DAT has the intelligence and work ethic to be able to specialize from an ivy league, or a state school that has specialties in house. Now, if said person goes to one of these new private schools that are as expensive as shiz like Midwestern, Touro, or Roseman.. Maybe not so much.

Also, to say that someone who has lower stats, like a 3.6 and a 21 AA has a better shot in dental school of specializing than someone who had higher undergrad stats... Well that's just absurd. Study habits and intelligence carry over. That said, it probably just comes down to who wants it the most.
 
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Relax guys, a person with a high 3.9+ GPA, and a DAT higher 20s DAT has the intelligence and work ethic to be able to specialize from an ivy league, or a state school that has specialties in house. Now, if said person goes to one of these new private schools that are as expensive as shiz like Midwestern, Touro, or Roseman.. Maybe not so much.

Also, to say that someone who has lower stats, like a 3.6 and a 21 AA has a better shot in dental school of specializing than someone who had higher undergrad stats... Well that's just absurd. Study habits and intelligence carry over. That said, it probably just comes down to who wants it the most.
Would you say in your experience that high stats correlated with d school performance? Did you know people who put in effort decently efficiently and still failed to achieve?
 
The ability to have a choice is worth it. And let's be real, anyone who makes it into the average dental school is smart. Being top of your class in undergrad is one thing , but once you're in dental school everyone is that kid who was top of their class... Therefore, if you make it into a school where the program will help you achieve the goals you want , why not go for it? I mean we're in so much debt as it is irregardless , that's how I see it anyway.


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Fair point :)
 
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Would you say in your experience that high stats correlated with d school performance? Did you know people who put in effort decently efficiently and still failed to achieve?
Why are you asking this to someone who's studying for the MCAT to go to med school
 
The ability to have a choice is worth it. And let's be real, anyone who makes it into the average dental school is smart. Being top of your class in undergrad is one thing , but once you're in dental school everyone is that kid who was top of their class... Therefore, if you make it into a school where the program will help you achieve the goals you want , why not go for it? I mean we're in so much debt as it is irregardless , that's how I see it anyway.


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To be fair lots of d schools nowadays still have average GPAs at like 3.5 and DATs of like 19-20. Assuming a decently normal distribution, 50% of the class would have 3.5 or less and maybe top 25% would be kids with 3.75+. I think the kids who were the top of their class would be in the minority at d school. It's pretty safe to say that competition will always be less than the med school counterparts.
 
Why are you asking this to someone who's studying for the MCAT to go to med school
LOL their profile doesn't appear anymore (can't see if premed,dent, etc). Damn I need to post on the dental board and ask them how DAT/GPA correlates if at all. Would give a tiny bit of piece of mind.
 
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LOL their profile doesn't appear anymore (can't see if premed,dent, etc). Damn I need to post on the dental board and ask them how DAT/GPA correlates if at all. Would give a tiny bit of piece of mind.
I feel you man. We'll find out soon!
 
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Relax guys, a person with a high 3.9+ GPA, and a DAT higher 20s DAT has the intelligence and work ethic to be able to specialize from an ivy league, or a state school that has specialties in house. Now, if said person goes to one of these new private schools that are as expensive as shiz like Midwestern, Touro, or Roseman.. Maybe not so much.

Also, to say that someone who has lower stats, like a 3.6 and a 21 AA has a better shot in dental school of specializing than someone who had higher undergrad stats... Well that's just absurd. Study habits and intelligence carry over. That said, it probably just comes down to who wants it the most.

I really don't see how your DAT score has anything to do with the grades you get in operative...

I'll put it to you this way. Going off my HS GPA, there's no way I should have performed as well as I did in college. On the flip side, many of my counterparts from the same HS who had stellar GPA's struggled at my undergrad. The idea that just because you got a 25AA means you're going to become some ace of aces at a state school is ludicrous.



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Why are you asking this to someone who's studying for the MCAT to go to med school
Hey hold on now, alright let's settle this once and for all: I was getting cold feet as I sometimes with huge life decisions. But, I decided that my heart just really isn't in the med field even though the schools are quite a bit cheaper, and there are tons of specialties that bring in the big $$. So, I'm just going with dental school after all. It's got the lifestyle factor, plus its where my heart is, so why not eh?
 
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Would you say in your experience that high stats correlated with d school performance? Did you know people who put in effort decently efficiently and still failed to achieve?
Well why would it not? Forget about your competition. If you are able to, as a student, get very high grades and have good study habits in undergrad, why would that all of the sudden crumble apart in dental school? Forget about everyone else, when you go into a test it's only you competing with you. If you put in the time, you will do fine.

If you had different priorities in high school from undergrad, that's what will explain why you got better grades. Like for example, I had a 4.0 for a few semesters, when I was like, hey screw this I want to have some fun. So as soon as my priorities switched, my grades suffered a bit, but hey I was more happy. I finished up with a 3.9 GPA, so it's not like I tanked, but the point is that if you put something as your priority and do everything to achieve it, who is going to stop you? Nobody.
 
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Great accomplishment Op, do you mind sharing your breakdown with us?
I suggest you add Harvard.
 
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can you elaborate on that?
I'm applying this summer. I currently have a 3.90 and hope to maintain it by the end of the semester as well (3.91 science). What I'm trying to say is that I thought I was doing well off, and thought about applying to Harvard. However, I constantly forget there are people with much better stats than me (op) and sometimes I think I don't have a chance at applying to said schools. DATs to be taken end of June.

Sounds like he had a 3.9 and didn't get into Harvard..
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Not really. See post ^
 
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I disagree, there is a limit to how far hard work alone will take you in dental school. In undergrad if you put enough work in, you're guaranteed to do well. That doesn't carry over to dental school. The volume of material and overall competitiveness of your classmates makes it a lot more challenging and there's really no sure way one can specialize. IMO maximizing your chances by attending certain schools makes sense financially as well, due to the improved chances and increased income from specializing.

I think most people that go to an Ivy and want to specialize are able to do so, some people simply decide they don't want to. The point is that it creates access for those who may have struggled to rank very highly in a non-Ivy program.

But expensive gamble or not, the more important point is that "you can go anywhere and specialize just as easily if you work hard enough" is sort of a widely circulated myth here. It's possible to specialize from any school, but the difficulty of actually doing so is not going to be uniform.

100/10 posts by feralis. Seriously. Your ability to finish top of your class is not simply just work rate. Many kids work very hard, but only some do well. This is why if you want to specialize, dont risk it and go to an ivy (unless its omfs then refer to my original post)

As I said to @tyjacobs, I don't doubt that you two have a better idea about the rigors of dental school. But if my side argument about anyone being able to specialize is wrong, would it not follow that if pre-dents set on specializing attend Ivy League schools more on average (due to the perceived increase in chance of specializing), then Ivy League schools are then more competitive, and thus harder to specialize out of? If you put the work in to specialize at an Ivy League school, and then put that equal amount of work in to specialize at a state school, you would specialize out of the state school every time.

All of this aside, I disagree that attending certain schools due to this perceived increased chance of specializing makes sense financially. If your decision is between a private school and Ivy League school both at 500k, then yes, the Ivy is a better choice for specializing. My earlier example for OP as an Illinois resident comes into play here though. Southern Illinois would cost OP 250k at most, while Columbia or Pennsylvania would cost 500k. I would argue that a 250k difference in price is certainly not worth school name recognition or a medical curriculum.

It is not more competitive to specialize out of ivies because their placement rates are much higher. As an examole, over 20 kids placed to omfs this past year at columbia. Thats 25% of the class (very high only uconn, harvard, and stony post these numbers but their class sizes are 40). So due to the fact that so many kids can get in its not competitive. Imagine you are in your state school -- 150 kid class and 4 get into omfs yeach year. Obviously way more competitive. Even ortho, when 15% of the class gets into ortho program its clearly way easier to get in from that school than the state scool who will place 2 or 3.

Specialties, ON AVERAGE, make more money than a GP. Therefore the extra money invested in education will pay off (there will be good return on investment)

If only you guys were here in the UF vs Harvard thread. I was literally the only one saying this but since I am a predent I had very little influence lmao. OP listen to these people- if I could go back I would have applied to the schools they named and likely have gone. My stats are the same as yours (with a higher DAT) and I'm still pretty nervous about all the ranking business and nonmedbased curriculum.

Big guns have stepped in
 
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100/10 posts by feralis. Seriously. Your ability to finish top of your class is not simply just work rate. Many kids work very hard, but only some do well. This is why if you want to specialize, dont risk it and go to an ivy (unless its omfs then refer to my original post)



It is not more competitive to specialize out of ivies because their placement rates are much higher. As an examole, over 20 kids placed to omfs this past year at columbia. Thats 25% of the class (very high only uconn, harvard, and stony post these numbers but their class sizes are 40). So due to the fact that so many kids can get in its not competitive. Imagine you are in your state school -- 150 kid class and 4 get into omfs yeach year. Obviously way more competitive. Even ortho, when 15% of the class gets into ortho program its clearly way easier to get in from that school than the state scool who will place 2 or 3.

Specialties, ON AVERAGE, make more money than a GP. Therefore the extra money invested in education will pay off (there will be good return on investment)



Big guns have stepped in
There are some people though who work even harder than everyone else, sacrificing all time on weekends and friday nights. Not many people can be on with few breaks. It's probably worth it though
 
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I'm applying this summer. I currently have a 3.90 and hope to maintain it by the end of the semester as well (3.91 science). What I'm trying to say is that I thought I was doing well off, and thought about applying to Harvard. However, I constantly forget there are people with much better stats than me (op) and sometimes I think I don't have a chance at applying to said schools. DATs to be taken end of June.


Not really. See post ^

Don't worry, just work hard, you'll be fine!
There are always people better than us and there are people who worse than us.
 
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There are some people though who work even harder than everyone else, sacrificing all time on weekends and friday nights. Not many people can be on with few breaks. It's probably worth it though
Sure, those people exist. What a miserable existence though.

You'd think they get respect for their dedication. But while being a diligent student is one thing, putting in too much work is not good. Their hard work could be perceived as a function of lack of talent/intelligence or of irrational competitiveness, which is frowned upon because so many people in this profession value a balanced lifestyle.

You do not want to be that type of "gunner." All of that work would be for naught if your colleagues & professors think you are anti-social as a result. Your success depends on your likability in addition to your grades.

In response to the general conversation in this thread, I think it's inhumane for people to advance the idea that anyone can achieve anything if they put the work into it. Life is more complicated than that. Is hard work the only thing standing between a mentally ******ed person and PhD? Are black people poor because they are lazy?
 
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Sure, those people exist. What a miserable existence though.

You'd think they get respect for their dedication. But while being a diligent student is one thing, putting in too much work is not good. Their hard work could be perceived as a function of lack of talent/intelligence or of irrational competitiveness, which is frowned upon because so many people in this profession value a balanced lifestyle.

You do not want to be that type of "gunner." All of that work would be for naught if your colleagues & professors think you are anti-social as a result. Your success depends on your likability in addition to your grades.

In response to the general conversation in this thread, I think it's inhumane for people to advance the idea that anyone can achieve anything if they put the work into it. Life is more complicated than that. Is hard work the only thing standing between a mentally ******ed person and PhD? Are black people poor because they are lazy?
I see where you are coming from, but if working hard and seen as a gunner for 4 years gives you a completely different future for 50 years, one could see it's worth the sacrifice. I'm not in that position to choose yet, but as long as you're not completely antisocial or socially awkward with professors, I don't see why you would be disliked. Work is relative: we are already working more than average undergrad students and many of our peers.
 
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Didn't make it to the NBA? You didn't want it bro.

Didn't make it to the NFL? You didn't want it bro.

Didn't kill Frieza with Spirit Bomb? You didn't want it bro.

Edit: Someone should make this a meme. Call it "Optimistic Maga Bro:" He can do anything if he puts his mind to it!
Sure, those people exist. What a miserable existence though.

You'd think they get respect for their dedication. But while being a diligent student is one thing, putting in too much work is not good. Their hard work could be perceived as a function of lack of talent/intelligence or of irrational competitiveness, which is frowned upon because so many people in this profession value a balanced lifestyle.

You do not want to be that type of "gunner." All of that work would be for naught if your colleagues & professors think you are anti-social as a result. Your success depends on your likability in addition to your grades.

In response to the general conversation in this thread, I think it's inhumane for people to advance the idea that anyone can achieve anything if they put the work into it. Life is more complicated than that. Is hard work the only thing standing between a mentally ******ed person and PhD? Are black people poor because they are lazy?
I think negativity and doubt are very detrimental and a lot of people would benefit from the power of positive thinking. Sure, we are not all equal in intelligence, but there are many people who can outperform the more intelligent simply through persistance.
 
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I see where you are coming from, but if working hard and seen as a gunner for 4 years gives you a completely different future for 50 years, one could see it's worth the sacrifice. I'm not in that position to choose yet, but as long as you're not completely antisocial or socially awkward with professors, I don't see why you would be disliked. Work is relative: we are already working more than average undergrad students and many of our peers.
Of course you should work hard and put extra time into your studies when you can. I'm an advocate for that. I thought we were both talking about something more extreme...like studying 15 hours/day, 7 days per week to "compete" against classmates.

I'm saying that taking time to hang out with other students, getting involved in clubs, exercising, etc. is also important for your future career, and that skipping out on these things to study more could hurt you more than it would help you.

I think negativity and doubt are very detrimental and a lot of people would benefit from the power of positive thinking. Sure, we are not all equal in intelligence, but there are many people who can outperform the more intelligent simply through persistence.
For sure. But let's say you're an OMFS residency director evaluating applicants (since I think that is the context of this thread). One applicant has to put twice the amount of time into everything he/she does to produce the same test scores as another top applicant. This person's work ethic may be more honorable, but ultimately, wouldn't you think the other applicant is likely to have the higher potential (intelligence), and wouldn't you choose based on potential? OMFS residency is supposed to be significantly harder and more time consuming than dental school--you might question the first applicant's ability to survive the residency.

This is totally hypothetical, btw.
 
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Of course you should work hard and put extra time into your studies when you can. I'm an advocate for that. I thought we were both talking about something more extreme...like studying 15 hours/day, 7 days per week to "compete" against classmates.

I'm saying that taking time to hang out with other students, getting involved in clubs, exercising, etc. is also important for your future career, and that skipping out on these things to study more could hurt you more than it would help you.


For sure. But let's say you're an OMFS residency director evaluating applicants (since I think that is the context of this thread). One applicant has to put twice the amount of time into everything he/she does to produce the same test scores as another top applicant. This person's work ethic may be more honorable, but ultimately, wouldn't you think the other applicant is likely to have the higher potential (intelligence), and wouldn't you choose based on potential? OMFS residency is supposed to be significantly harder and more time consuming than dental school--you might question the first applicant's ability to survive the residency.

This is totally hypothetical, btw.
If they were equal, it'd probably come down to which one is more personable :)
 
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For sure. But let's say you're an OMFS residency director evaluating applicants (since I think that is the context of this thread). One applicant has to put twice the amount of time into everything he/she does to produce the same test scores as another top applicant. This person's work ethic may be more honorable, but ultimately, wouldn't you think the other applicant is likely to have the higher potential (intelligence), and wouldn't you choose based on potential? OMFS residency is supposed to be significantly harder and more time consuming than dental school--you might question the first applicant's ability to survive the residency.

This is totally hypothetical, btw.
Yea For sure it's valuable to enjoy yourself and not work 15 hour days haha. However with your point on evaluators, I don't quite see it. So you're saying someone dumber than someone else can't work hard to overcome their lower IQ or whatnot to be on an even playing field? What about someone with less resources who needs to work harder to be equal to someone born with a silver spoon? If you're picking based on potential (if it was possible of course) you would be denying a lot of capable people opportunities. Thank goodness they don't do that in real life or else if you started out less intelligent than someone else, you would never be able to do anything about it because you're not judged by merits but by potential.
 
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