What's the best route for me?

[Conflagration]

Hello, SDN.

I am 22, almost 23, and will be graduating next year with a degree in mathematics with a minor in secondary education. My major GPA is at a 3.5, and my cumulative is sitting at around a 3.35.

I haven't really taken any pre-requisites, but I was curious if I could take them as a graduate student in a traditional master's program, or if I should take them at my college presently as a non-degree seeking student.

So, I really have three options (possibly 4):

1.) Take pre-reqs as a non-degree seeking student around my work schedule, either at my college or at a community college. Finances would be hard and scheduling wouldn't be easy, but I could fulfill my teaching grant obligation. I only owe around $4,000 in teaching grants, so that is helpful but not a catastrophic loss in the big picture if I convert it to a loan.
2.) Apply for an MAT in Secondary Biology Education, which would probably have the science classes built in. Separate GPA since it's graduate work. I would be eligible for loans, and could work at the same time. This degree would probably take about 2 years.
3.) Apply for the MS in Biology an hour away. It would almost definitely have the coursework, it would be a separate GPA since it's graduate. I would be eligible for loans, but I couldn't work. This is a thesis-based degree that will take about 3 years.
4.) Apply for an SMP 3 hours away or a med school sponsored post-bacc. Not my ideal solution since the latter doesn't take loans and I don't have $10,000 lying around to do whatever with. 1 year, but I really don't need to rush it since I'm building other ECs also.

I don't mind taking my time to be sure it's done right. My UG performance is lacking since I had some pretty serious mental health issues that I didn't even discover until recently, but are now medicated, and I had some pretty serious upheaval that required me to transfer.

What would you all suggest? Which option worked for you?

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[njtrimed]

Hello, SDN.

I am 22, almost 23, and will be graduating next year with a degree in mathematics with a minor in secondary education. My major GPA is at a 3.5, and my cumulative is sitting at around a 3.35.

I haven't really taken any pre-requisites, but I was curious if I could take them as a graduate student in a traditional master's program, or if I should take them at my college presently as a non-degree seeking student.

So, I really have three options (possibly 4):

1.) Take pre-reqs as a non-degree seeking student around my work schedule, either at my college or at a community college. Finances would be hard and scheduling wouldn't be easy, but I could fulfill my teaching grant obligation. I only owe around $4,000 in teaching grants, so that is helpful but not a catastrophic loss in the big picture if I convert it to a loan.
2.) Apply for an MAT in Secondary Biology Education, which would probably have the science classes built in. Separate GPA since it's graduate work. I would be eligible for loans, and could work at the same time. This degree would probably take about 2 years.
3.) Apply for the MS in Biology an hour away. It would almost definitely have the coursework, it would be a separate GPA since it's graduate. I would be eligible for loans, but I couldn't work. This is a thesis-based degree that will take about 3 years.
4.) Apply for an SMP 3 hours away or a med school sponsored post-bacc. Not my ideal solution since the latter doesn't take loans and I don't have $10,000 lying around to do whatever with. 1 year, but I really don't need to rush it since I'm building other ECs also.

I don't mind taking my time to be sure it's done right. My UG performance is lacking since I had some pretty serious mental health issues that I didn't even discover until recently, but are now medicated, and I had some pretty serious upheaval that required me to transfer.

What would you all suggest? Which option worked for you?

This is not meant to be snarky, but I'm genuinely curious why you've been on SDN For five years (presumably since high school?) and never took any prerequisites in four years of college. Why medicine now? I'm not even sure where to start in terms of giving advice or suggestions, because it's not really clear to me what you actually want to do.

 

[aformerstudent]

If you're working, bad move.

How are you going to do an SMP with no pre-req's?

Post-bacc's can get expensive. Take the courses full-time as a fifth year student so you get financial aid. I think you get up to 12500 a year for that. You'd need to get a B+ average or better taking the pre-req's and then score competitively on the MCAT. If you feel you can't do that, skip medicine.

 

[Conflagration]

This is not meant to be snarky, but I'm genuinely curious why you've been on SDN For five years (presumably since high school?) and never took any prerequisites in four years of college. Why medicine now? I'm not even sure where to start in terms of giving advice or suggestions, because it's not really clear to me what you actually want to do.

I've waffled on it a bit, kind of lurked/posted for the community. I burned pretty bad as a freshman and thought that was the end of the line for me.

I've been working as a caregiver (which sparked my interest) and I've received treatment for problems that certainly clouded my judgement. I always wanted to go for it but I always let some lame excuse get in the way. I thought that I was maybe not cut out for it.

But honestly? I'm graduating in a year and I just can't see myself doing anything else other than medicine and being happy about it. I've let stupid excuse after stupid excuse get in the way.

I don't want to do that any more; the catalyst for that was being disowned for being gay. I took on the education degree because then I would get more financial assistance- and as a nearly homeless 20 year old, that sounded pretty good. But now that I'm living my life as myself fully and am in control of my life, I want to chase the dream I always had but didn't have the balls to do previously.

I've always kind of known what I wanted to do but let the fear of failure and the time commitment of medicine drive me away. First it was the grades. Then it was the displacement situation. Then it was being in a fully committed relationship and not wanting to drag my poor fiancée across the country for a dream. She's given me her blessing, I've recovered and restabilized after being thrown out, and I'm finally in a place where I'm not letting any bullsh*t- mine or anyone else's- get in the way of that.

 

[Conflagration]

If you're working, bad move.

How are you going to do an SMP with no pre-req's?

Post-bacc's can get expensive. Take the courses full-time as a fifth year student so you get financial aid. I think you get up to 12500 a year for that. You'd need to get a B+ average or better taking the pre-req's and then score competitively on the MCAT. If you feel you can't do that, skip medicine.

This is technically my fifth year since I was disowned after my junior year; I had to go to a school for two years to be able to graduate. Which is why I was looking into an MS or something since I'd qualify for graduate loans.

 

[aformerstudent]

This is technically my fifth year since I was disowned after my junior year; I had to go to a school for two years to be able to graduate. Which is why I was looking into an MS or something since I'd qualify for graduate loans.

Anything after you graduate is considered your fifth year for loan purposes. You could have been in undergrad for 10 years and once you graduate that next year would be your fifth year for loan purposes. Like I said, it's only 12500 max.

 

[Conflagration]

Anything after you graduate is considered your fifth year for loan purposes. You could have been in undergrad for 10 years and once you graduate that next year would be your fifth year for loan purposes. Like I said, it's only 12500 max.

I'll have to double check aggregate maximums; I'm now considered an independent student, which makes my limits higher than a dependent. I've just borrowed for five years as of this year coming.

 

[njtrimed]

This is technically my fifth year since I was disowned after my junior year; I had to go to a school for two years to be able to graduate. Which is why I was looking into an MS or something since I'd qualify for graduate loans.

I'm sorry for what you've been through; it's seriously awful that your own family could treat you that way. As far as medical school is concerned, you will not be able to take the majority of your prerequisites through any kind of Master's program. Your best bet is either your current university, a postbacc program designed for premeds, or a DIY postbacc through a community college. SMPs are designed for people who either did poorly in undergrad or have been out of school for years and need to show recent grades. Most med school prereqs are introductory science courses.

 

[texas0628]

It sounds like you've been through a lot. Don't let it get you down. If you really want to practice medicine, those struggles will only make you a better doctor. Despite what it might seem like here on SDN, you don't have to be the perfect/ideal student to get into medical school. I would take the pre reqs as a non degree seeking student to raise your undergrad GPA. Do your best in them and on the MCAT. Get involved doing something you enjoy in the community. You can do this. People have gotten in with more hiccups in their past than this! I highly highly suggest you check out the Premed Years podcast on Itunes, and especially the Old Premeds Podcast. It is a wealth of knowledge and support and has a TON of stories about people with all kinds of non traditional paths to medicine. It sounds like you really want this. If that is true, you can absolutely make it happen.

 

[Conflagration]

I'm sorry for what you've been through; it's seriously awful that your own family could treat you that way. As far as medical school is concerned, you will not be able to take the majority of your prerequisites through any kind of Master's program. Your best bet is either your current university, a postbacc program designed for premeds, or a DIY postbacc through a community college. SMPs are designed for people who either did poorly in undergrad or have been out of school for years and need to show recent grades. Most med school prereqs are introductory science courses.

You would think that graduate level classes would be a plus; how bizarre.

I guess I'll try to get some bachelor's credit- the state school is a hell of a lot cheaper than where I go now.

 

[njtrimed]

You would think that graduate level classes would be a plus; how bizarre.

I guess I'll try to get some bachelor's credit- the state school is a hell of a lot cheaper than where I go now.

Actually, graduate course work isn't regarded as highly as undergraduate in med school admissions. I understand why after finishing a Master's degree at a respected university; it was much harder to get an A in undergrad. Premed classes tend to be curved harshly as "weed out" classes, and in my experience, 300-400 level bio courses generally are designed to be challenging too.

Regardless, introductory courses aren't offered at a graduate level; grad schools expect you to have some background in basic sciences before doing graduate level work.

 

[Conflagration]

Actually, graduate course work isn't regarded as highly as undergraduate in med school admissions. I understand why after finishing a Master's degree at a respected university; it was much harder to get an A in undergrad. Premed classes tend to be curved harshly as "weed out" classes, and in my experience, 300-400 level bio courses generally are designed to be challenging too.

Regardless, introductory courses aren't offered at a graduate level; grad schools expect you to have some background in basic sciences before doing graduate level work.

Fair point; I didn't even think of that.

Sorry for writing a book earlier. I've just stalled for a long time and I really want it.

 

[njtrimed]

Fair point; I didn't even think of that.

Sorry for writing a book earlier. I've just stalled for a long time and I really want it.

No worries! For what it's worth, you're still a kid. If it takes you 3-4 more years to start med school, you'll likely still be pretty close the the average age in your class.

 

[Conflagration]

No worries! For what it's worth, you're still a kid. If it takes you 3-4 more years to start med school, you'll likely still be pretty close the the average age in your class.

Well, I'm going to be 26-27 in four years. If I take two years to crank out the pre-reqs, then I could be applying when I'm 25, which would be nice. But I'm not going to sprint either. I want the best app possible.

I really appreciate your all's perspectives on everything. I feel more confident in myself to build a post-bacc.

 

[Tabiyou]

Well, I'm going to be 26-27 in four years. If I take two years to crank out the pre-reqs, then I could be applying when I'm 25, which would be nice. But I'm not going to sprint either. I want the best app possible.

I really appreciate your all's perspectives on everything. I feel more confident in myself to build a post-bacc.

Hey friend!

If it makes you feel any better, I went to a service academy. On one of the application essays I wrote about wanting to serve in the medical community. I then went to prep school and finally the service academy, served in the Marines for 5 years, then took 2 years for classes and clinical experience. I started med school last year at 30.

Trust me, those extra years of life experience will pay off. Please don't feel old or regret how life played out - everything happens for a reason (God, fate, bad luck) - yet how you respond helps you grow and mature.

You can do this!

 

[Conflagration]

Hey friend!

If it makes you feel any better, I went to a service academy. On one of the application essays I wrote about wanting to serve in the medical community. I then went to prep school and finally the service academy, served in the Marines for 5 years, then took 2 years for classes and clinical experience. I started med school last year at 30.

Trust me, those extra years of life experience will pay off. Please don't feel old or regret how life played out - everything happens for a reason (God, fate, bad luck) - yet how you respond helps you grow and mature.

You can do this!

I can honestly say that I feel more prepared for whatever happens knowing that I was able to adapt to the complete cluster than was having to leave and rebuild.

Semper Fi! My parents are ex-military. Army, though.

 

[WGSgrad]

Trust me, those extra years of life experience will pay off. Please don't feel old or regret how life played out - everything happens for a reason (God, fate, bad luck) - yet how you respond helps you grow and mature.

All of this.

As to your original question...my advice depends on how "certain" you are now that this is what you really want to do...

In brief, I think you best bet is to apply as a transfer student to the cheapest four year university in your state and pursue a second B.A as opposed to as a "non-degree seeking student." If you have taken out very few loans then you will still have enough federal student loan eligibility left and pursuing a second degree would make your federal loan eligible. Obviously, you don't have complete the second B.A. and can withdraw once you have take all you prerequisites.

I would recommend this over what you have suggested for the following...

1) Pursuing the BA as opposed to non-degree seeking status makes you eligible for federal student loans which means you can work less to pay tuition and knock out your prerequisites and apply faster. While it's important to present the strongest application possible, from a financial perspective, a year saved now is another year of salary later...so if you can survive just using new student loans for tuition, this will be your best financial bet.
2) & 3) Master's programs are about advanced coursework. I have a master's and there is no undergraduate remedial work "built in." So, I don't think this option would function as you think. Additionally, MD schools don't take graduate GPAs as seriously as they take undergraduate GPAs. You want to prove you can hang with the premeds sitting next to you.
4) Assuming an upward trend, and that you do well in your prerequisites and on the MCAT there is no reason a student with your GPAs should be considering an SMP or a med school sponsored post-bacc (unless the post-bacc guaranteed an interview and you were certain this school is where you wanted to go). The first reason, is the reason you have stated: they tend to be very expensive. The second and more important reason is that they are incredibly high risk. There is no margin for error. If you don't perform really well, your chances at getting into medical school are basically over. (As an aside: I don't think you are even eligible for an SMP given you have not completed your prerequisites).

 

[Tabiyou]

Realized I never answered your question, I apologize for that. I would go with option 1. I believe this option would be most flexible with life and your schedule in general.

 

[Conflagration]

All of this.

As to your original question...my advice depends on how "certain" you are now that this is what you really want to do...

In brief, I think you best bet is to apply as a transfer student to the cheapest four year university in your state and pursue a second B.A as opposed to as a "non-degree seeking student." If you have taken out very few loans then you will still have enough federal student loan eligibility left and pursuing a second degree would make your federal loan eligible. Obviously, you don't have complete the second B.A. and can withdraw once you have take all you prerequisites.

I would recommend this over what you have suggested for the following...

1) Pursuing the BA as opposed to non-degree seeking status makes you eligible for federal student loans which means you can work less to pay tuition and knock out your prerequisites and apply faster. While it's important to present the strongest application possible, from a financial perspective, a year saved now is another year of salary later...so if you can survive just using new student loans for tuition, this will be your best financial bet.
2) & 3) Master's programs are about advanced coursework. I have a master's and there is no undergraduate remedial work "built in." So, I don't think this option would function as you think. Additionally, MD schools don't take graduate GPAs as seriously as they take undergraduate GPAs. You want to prove you can hang with the premeds sitting next to you.
4) Assuming an upward trend, and that you do well in your prerequisites and on the MCAT there is no reason a student with your GPAs should be considering an SMP or a med school sponsored post-bacc (unless the post-bacc guaranteed an interview and you were certain this school is where you wanted to go). The first reason, is the reason you have stated: they tend to be very expensive. The second and more important reason is that they are incredibly high risk. There is no margin for error. If you don't perform really well, your chances at getting into medical school are basically over. (As an aside: I don't think you are even eligible for an SMP given you have not completed your prerequisites).

This is very thorough!

With this year coming, I will have around $12,500 in loans left before I hit the aggregate maximum. I could certainly try to reduce this with work, but I'll have to look into the availability of classes at night or around my schedule if I were to keep working. Teaching is pretty strict about being from 7-4, give or take an hour from either side of that depending on the district. I have intentionally avoided non-federal debt and have kept my credit score high in case I had to push that emergency button. I really don't want to because most APRs are hellacious and don't necessarily have to follow most federal guidelines, but I will if I have to. (If you have suggestions or advice as to who has been the best companies to work with, that'd be great!)

Did you find that your school was flexible about the times that classes were offered?

 

[WGSgrad]

Did you find that your school was flexible about the times that classes were offered?

So, I didn't realize that you are currently working (or planning to) full time as a teacher. If you plan to keep working then choice 1 is probably your best option. This will be tough as most science classes, and labs, at four year universities are offered during the daytime; although, you might find some evening classes at very large state universities or access focused universities with a large commuter/non-traditional/adult student populations. You could also pursue the community college route as you suggested, and there are certainly quite few folks that have been successful and saved a ton of money going that route, as long as you know you will be less competitive at some medical schools.

I would just start off slowly. Maybe just one course + teaching...because you need an 'A' and everything is on the line. Also, teaching is exhausting. I taught 25-30 undergraduates as a graduate student and it was a lot of work and physically tiring. You need to make sure you give yourself time to figure out how to do both without burning out and performing badly at both.

My MA program wasn't flexible at all. The one prerequisite I took the last two semesters I was there was always in addition to my required MA coursework. In the fall, I will be pursuing a second BA in biology to complete the rest of my prerequisites which I will do in a year and a half.

 

[Conflagration]

So, I didn't realize that you are currently working (or planning to) full time as a teacher. If you plan to keep working then choice 1 is probably your best option. This will be tough as most science classes, and labs, at four year universities are offered during the daytime; although, you might find some evening classes at very large state universities or access focused universities with a large commuter/non-traditional/adult student populations. You could also pursue the community college route as you suggested, and there are certainly quite few folks that have been successful and saved a ton of money going that route, as long as you know you will be less competitive at some medical schools.

I would just start off slowly. Maybe just one course + teaching...because you need an 'A' and everything is on the line. Also, teaching is exhausting. I taught 25-30 undergraduates as a graduate student and it was a lot of work and physically tiring. You need to make sure you give yourself time to figure out how to do both without burning out and performing badly at both.

My MA program wasn't flexible at all. The one prerequisite I took the last two semesters I was there was always in addition to my required MA coursework. In the fall, I will be pursuing a second BA in biology to complete the rest of my prerequisites which I will do in a year and a half.

I suggested the MA since my school intentionally makes classes after 4 for the teaching licensure degrees because they're made for working teachers.

I'll get a better barometer for what I think I can handle during student teaching; that way, I can figure out if I need to pace it out or if I can take on more than one class at once. Worst-case scenario, I teach for a year without taking classes so I can fully invest in taking classes after.

I mean, I'm not gunning for Harvard. I just don't want it to bite me too much in the ass; I'm applying for the schools in-state (I'm a SC resident: so, VCOM-Carolinas, USC-Greenville, and MUSC) and trying to figure out where else from there. As long as a CC wouldn't detract from those 3, I think I can cope with that. Probably stick to mainly DO programs too, if I'm honest; although I may try for some MD as long as they are in my GPA/MCAT range and take pity on my soul.