What Will Happen to Undocumented Doctors?

[Beezlebub]

This is ridiculous and I'm surprised by some of the responses.

1) They're innocent - these individuals did not choose to immigrate to the US, it was their parents.
2) If they have the capabilities to be admitted to medical school, by all means they should deserve this opportunity, out of their own hard work and merits. I couldn't even fathom what difficulties they must have experienced to make it this far.
3) For my future colleagues on this thread, especially student doctors, I ask that you be more empathetic as this is the essence of medicine. And I bet most of you made this testimony on your personal statement, so don't be hypocritical.
4) Don't be a dbag w/ a superiority complex. nobody wants to work with a dbag in medicine. just a heads up.

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[W19]

an executive order that was selective non-enforcement. You can like it or not, but they are still illegal in status

Let me try this again... A selective non enforcement is letting these people stay here illegally without giving them a status, which is completely different from an executive order. I know you know the difference.

 

[W19]

This is ridiculous and I'm surprised by some of the responses.

1) They're innocent - these individuals did not choose to immigrate to the US, it was their parents.
2) If they have the capabilities to be admitted to medical school, by all means they should deserve this opportunity, out of their own hard work and merits. I couldn't even fathom what difficulties they must have experienced to made it this far.
3) For my future colleagues on this thread, especially student doctors, I ask that you be more empathetic as this is the essence of medicine. And I bet most of you made this testimony on your personal statement, so don't be hypocritical.
4) Don't be a dbag w/ a superiority complex. nobody wants to work with a dbag in medicine. just a heads up.

there is nothing wrong with wanting our government to enforce our immigration laws...

 

[Raryn]

Yea I am pretty sure you are correct. I've heard conflicting things regarding medical debt and student loans ( some say that they get transferred to family members, others say they don't)

Medical debt can get transferred to your spouse, because if you're married when you get it, both of you share everything (more or less). But never your kids.

Student loans can't get transferred to anyone that isn't a cosigner. The only cases you hear of transferred student loan sob stories are inevitably someone who had their parents cosign their debt and then had an untimely demise... Parents are still on the hook. It absolutely sucks, but it's not really debt inheritance.

 

[Beezlebub]

Medical debt can get transferred to your spouse, because if you're married when you get it, both of you share everything (more or less). But never your kids.

Student loans can't get transferred to anyone that isn't a cosigner. The only cases you hear of transferred student loan sob stories are inevitably someone who had their parents cosign their debt and then had an untimely demise... Parents are still on the hook. It absolutely sucks, but it's not really debt inheritance.

Wow. That's a double whammy heartache. Adding salt to a heavy wound.

 

[GUH]

I doubt that the practicing physicians will be deported. There are already many, many illegal immigrants who have committed additional crimes that will be higher up on the deportation priority list. Given how much opposition there is among the American Left to even deporting illegal aliens who have committed other serious crimes (which is astounding), the federal government will probably never get around to deporting all of the illegal aliens who are working as physicians who have been otherwise law-abiding.
Now as for whether they will be allowed to practice medicine in the United States, that will be up to each individual state medical board. I doubt that medical boards in all 50 states will bar these doctors from practicing.

 

[SunsFun]

I doubt that the practicing physicians will be deported. There are already many, many illegal immigrants who have committed additional crimes that will be higher up on the deportation priority list. Given how much opposition there is among the American Left to even deporting illegal aliens who have committed other serious crimes (which is astounding), the federal government will probably never get around to deporting all of the illegal aliens who are working as physicians who have been otherwise law-abiding.
Now as for whether they will be allowed to practice medicine in the United States, that will be up to each individual state medical board. I doubt that medical boards in all 50 states will bar these doctors from practicing.

Thanks for writing that in bold. I almost forgot about my unyielding opposition to deporting the violent criminals until now. Time to write another letter to my congressman.


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[OathTaker]

Is there any reason why these DACA's cannot practice medicine in their own country of legality like Mexico? Mexico I'm sure needs physicians even worse that the US and most of them speak that language too. Seems we are sending American Students and physicians to Spanish-speaking areas on medical missions all the time. And here are some trained Spanish fluent physicians whose citizenship is in question that could easily serve legally in their very underserved population and nobody seems to make that connection.

 

[psychic_detective]

How will they get a dea license?

 

[Raryn]

How will they get a dea license?

The DEA doesn't request proof of citizenship. Neither do the medical licensing boards.

DEA process is actually remarkably painless. It's a two page online form and you get your # within a week or two. The licensing boards are orders of magnitude more annoying.

 

[psychic_detective]

The DEA doesn't request proof of citizenship. Neither do the medical licensing boards.

DEA process is actually remarkably painless. It's a two page online form and you get your # within a week or two. The licensing boards are orders of magnitude more annoying.

Oh cool, I guess I thought they would require more. Thanks for the reply. I hope it works out then for the daca peeps.

 

[GUH]

Thanks for writing that in bold. I almost forgot about my unyielding opposition to deporting the violent criminals until now. Time to write another letter to my congressman.


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Then I'm glad you're a Leftist who is on board with the President's deportation plans, which specifically targets those illegal immigrants who have abused their presence here by committing other crimes. There aren't a whole lot of you.

 

[SunsFun]

Then I'm glad you're a Leftist who is on board with the President's deportation plans, which specifically targets those illegal immigrants who have abused their presence here by committing other crimes. There aren't a whole lot of you.

You may find quite a few if you stop playing identity politics and just ask instead of making assumptions.


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[68PGunner]

Is there any reason why these DACA's cannot practice medicine in their own country of legality like Mexico? Mexico I'm sure needs physicians even worse that the US and most of them speak that language too. Seems we are sending American Students and physicians to Spanish-speaking areas on medical missions all the time. And here are some trained Spanish fluent physicians whose citizenship is in question that could easily serve legally in their very underserved population and nobody seems to make that connection.

More $$$ at US Steak

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Is there any reason why these DACA's cannot practice medicine in their own country of legality like Mexico? Mexico I'm sure needs physicians even worse that the US and most of them speak that language too. Seems we are sending American Students and physicians to Spanish-speaking areas on medical missions all the time. And here are some trained Spanish fluent physicians whose citizenship is in question that could easily serve legally in their very underserved population and nobody seems to make that connection.

Why would US schools waste their resources educating/training students who will end up practicing in other countries, especially since there are plenty of underserved communities here in the States?

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Someone please tell me. Did these schools decide to accept illegals or because of DACA were forced to take them as if they were legal?

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Someone please tell me. Did these schools decide to accept illegals or because of DACA were forced to take them as if they were legal?

I'm pretty sure they decided on their own.

 

[Raryn]

Someone please tell me. Did these schools decide to accept illegals or because of DACA were forced to take them as if they were legal?

Have to have taken them on their own. Unless they're independently wealthy, DACA participants require the school to jump through hoops to get them enough financial aid (they don't qualify for federal student loans).

 

[raiderette]

Then I'm glad you're a Leftist who is on board with the President's deportation plans, which specifically targets those illegal immigrants who have abused their presence here by committing other crimes. There aren't a whole lot of you.

Rather than rewrite history, our past President deported more criminals than the previous two Presidents combined and his supporters did not object. Deporting the guy who works 60 hours a week in a restaurant does nothing to make me safer.

 

[GUH]

Rather than rewrite history, our past President deported more criminals than the previous two Presidents combined and his supporters did not object. Deporting the guy who works 60 hours a week in a restaurant does nothing to make me safer.

Which "guy" are you referring to?

 

[GUH]

You may find quite a few if you stop playing identity politics and just ask instead of making assumptions.


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My assumption was based on portrayals by the media, including outlets like CNN, NYT, and the LA Times. I agree that those are poor sources but they are unfortunately pretty dominant and hard to ignore.

 

[OathTaker]

Why would US schools waste their resources educating/training students who will end up practicing in other countries, especially since there are plenty of underserved communities here in the States?

There is no requirement for any graduate of US medical schools to practice in the US now. Why would Grenada train physicians to serve in the US rather than in Grenada which has underserved as well?

 

[Raryn]

There is no requirement for any graduate of US medical schools to practice in the US now. Why would Grenada train physicians to serve in the US rather than in Grenada which has underserved as well?

Because it's a for-profit medical school that brings a ton of tax revenue into Grenada. Vs the vast majority of our medical schools (even the private ones) are taxpayer subsidized (by being nonprofits).

 

[raiderette]

Because it's a for-profit medical school that brings a ton of tax revenue into Grenada. Vs the vast majority of our medical schools (even the private ones) are taxpayer subsidized (by being nonprofits).

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I'm pretty sure they decided on their own.

Have to have taken them on their own. Unless they're independently wealthy, DACA participants require the school to jump through hoops to get them enough financial aid (they don't qualify for federal student loans).

Thanks for responding.

I think it sucks that these doctors are in this situation, but it was really created by the schools that chose to take away those opportunities by Americans. Ultimately the ideal would be that DACA students no longer be able to take an education this valuable from someone legal, but they should be given some pathway so it doesn't become a waste of our taxpayer money to have educated them.

 

[DrBowtie]

So how does this all play out down the road? Will they be able to get medical licenses?

 

[OathTaker]

Because it's a for-profit medical school that brings a ton of tax revenue into Grenada. Vs the vast majority of our medical schools (even the private ones) are taxpayer subsidized (by being nonprofits).

And since american tax dollars pays for lots of the costs why should foreigners, especially illegal ones, be educated on the American tax payers dime? The revenue Grenada for-profit medical schools generate does not subsidize American medical schools.

 

[BronxBomber]

I just want to point out a few things:

Is there any reason why these DACA's cannot practice medicine in their own country of legality like Mexico? Mexico I'm sure needs physicians even worse that the US and most of them speak that language too. Seems we are sending American Students and physicians to Spanish-speaking areas on medical missions all the time. And here are some trained Spanish fluent physicians whose citizenship is in question that could easily serve legally in their very underserved population and nobody seems to make that connection.

DACA recipients don't have a "country of legality." When they're deported back to where they're from, they're not automatically citizens or anything like that (depending on where they're from). They're state-less people. Many don't even speak the language of their home country.

Aside from marriage, a "legitimate process" doesn't exist for many who were brought here as minors.

I want to echo that there IS NO legitimate process for DACA recipients to become citizens. None. If they want to become legal citizens, they would have to give-up their DACA status, move "back" to a country where they've never lived in and where they may not speak the language, then apply for a green card/visa/citizenship the same way that everyone else does (and join the huddled masses who huddle for decades to get in). That's just an absurd amount of backflips for someone who lives on American soil, is a part of American culture, was raised American, and by all objective standards except their place of birth is an American. Many of these people don't even know they're illegal until they're teenagers. How messed up is that?

So should we treat them like Americans, or like law-breaking, border-hopping criminals? Its a pretty obvious moral calculus.

Why would US schools waste their resources educating/training students who will end up practicing in other countries, especially since there are plenty of underserved communities here in the States?

Many medical schools in the US take international students anyway. If anything, DACA recipients are more worthy of those spots since there's absolutely no reason to think they're going to leave the US when they graduate anyway. Its not like they get the license and then return like salmon to ancestral waters. They're American in everything but citizenship.

 

[OathTaker]

I just want to point out a few things:



DACA recipients don't have a "country of legality." When they're deported back to where they're from, they're not automatically citizens or anything like that (depending on where they're from). They're state-less people. Many don't even speak the language of their home country.



I want to echo that there IS NO legitimate process for DACA recipients to become citizens. None. If they want to become legal citizens, they would have to give-up their DACA status, move "back" to a country where they've never lived in and where they may not speak the language, then apply for a green card/visa/citizenship the same way that everyone else does (and join the huddled masses who huddle for decades to get in). That's just an absurd amount of backflips for someone who lives on American soil, is a part of American culture, was raised American, and by all objective standards except their place of birth is an American. Many of these people don't even know they're illegal until they're teenagers. How messed up is that?

So should we treat them like Americans, or like law-breaking, border-hopping criminals? Its a pretty obvious moral calculus.



Many medical schools in the US take international students anyway. If anything, DACA recipients are more worthy of those spots since there's absolutely no reason to think they're going to leave the US when they graduate anyway. Its not like they get the license and then return like salmon to ancestral waters. They're American in everything but citizenship.

Did any of the foreign students or the families contribute tax dollars to subsidizing of the US schools? Dreamers cost the US taxpayer a lot of money just for education. With the average cost being about $10K a year... times 13 = $130,000. That does not include the cost of subsidizing their undergrad and medical school. Not sure how any of this benefits americans. It certainly does not seem to be due to compassion for the poor because they are everywhere. And if we expect to put America first -- before foreign countries in getting healthcare, it does not seem to translate into putting Americans first with regard to education.

Are you saying Mexican citizens children are NOT given citizenship through "blood"? And if not they were born in Mexico so why do they not have Mexican citizenship through "soil"?

 

[aalamruad]

Did any of the foreign students or the families contribute tax dollars to subsidizing of the US schools? Dreamers cost the US taxpayer a lot of money just for education. With the average cost being about $10K a year... times 13 = $130,000. That does not include the cost of subsidizing their undergrad and medical school. Not sure how any of this benefits americans. It certainly does not seem to be due to compassion for the poor because they are everywhere. And if we expect to put America first -- before foreigners in getting healthcare, it does not seem to translate into purring Americans first with regard to education.

Fun fact: US citizens whose families don't pay taxes are still allowed to go to med school and take out federal loans on taxpayer money. But I don't see anyone complaining about that.

 

[OathTaker]

Fun fact: US citizens whose families don't pay taxes are still allowed to go to med school and take out federal loans on taxpayer money. But I don't see anyone complaining about that.

Do the foreign governments give and cover the federal loans?

I've read on this board that it is next to impossible for Americans to attend Candian medical schools.

 

[aalamruad]

Do the foreign governments give and cover the federal loans?

I've read on this board that it is next to impossible for Americans to attend Candian medical schools.

I see how my post may have been confusing, let me clarify: I was referring to US citizens going to US schools. US citizens whose families never pay taxes in the US (tax evaders) can still go to US med schools and take out federal loans on the taxpayers' dime. They're only barred from certain private scholarships.

 

[OathTaker]

I see how my post may have been confusing, let me clarify: I was referring to US citizens going to US schools. US citizens whose families never pay taxes in the US (tax evaders) can still go to US med schools and take out federal loans on the taxpayers' dime. They're only barred from certain private scholarships.

Well I would certainly hope tax evaders would be dealt with just like the illegal dreamers. When I think of non-taxpayers, I tend to think of the US citizens that are the hard working poor making minimum wage.

 

[aalamruad]

Well I would certainly hope tax evaders would be dealt with just like the illegal dreamers. When I think of non-taxpayers, I tend to think of the US citizens that are the hard working poor making minimum wage.

And you don't think a lot of the DREAMers come from families that are hard working and poor and making minimum wage?

The children of US citizens who are tax evaders aren't banned from studying and practicing medicine in the US (because in the US, we don't punish children for their parents' crimes), so it's clear that taxes and contribution to US society aren't truly the issue here.

 

[OathTaker]

And you don't think a lot of the DREAMers come from families that are hard working and poor and making minimum wage?

The children of US citizens who are tax evaders aren't banned from studying and practicing medicine in the US (because in the US, we don't punish children for their parents' crimes), so it's clear that taxes and contribution to US society aren't truly the issue here.

And you don't think a lot of the DREAMers come from families that are hard working and poor and making minimum wage?

The children of US citizens who are tax evaders aren't banned from studying and practicing medicine in the US (because in the US, we don't punish children for their parents' crimes), so it's clear that taxes and contribution to US society aren't truly the issue here.

Which is what we are debating - some of us say they should be banned from studying and practicing in the US on the taxpayers dime. And we certainly do look at "expected parental contriubtion" meaning grants and loans are given or denied to a student based on parents behavior (crime of being wealthy).

 

[OathTaker]

I would like to note that many DACA students pay taxes with their social security numbers that were given along with their work permits under the DACA executive order. In addition, many undocumented immigrants who may not qualify under DACA still pay taxes using their individual taxpayer identification numbers.

As other have said - executive order that by-passed laws. As Trump says - we want Dreamers to come from the US.

As they say "You cannot give to one without taking from another".

 

[aalamruad]

Which is what we are debating - some of us say they should be banned from studying and practicing in the US on the taxpayers dime. And we certainly do look at "expected parental contriubtion" meaning grants and loans are given or denied to a student based on parents behavior (crime of being wealthy).

No, med students can get loans for the full cost of attendance without providing any parental information whatsoever. "Expected parental contribution" doesn't matter at all if an applicant chooses to not report parental tax info (or can't due to their parents evading taxes).

 

[OathTaker]

An executive order is an integral part of the checks and balances in the US government. Citing executive orders as abuses of power and/or "by-passing laws" is nonsense. If the DACA executive order were not just, it would have been overturned by the judicial branch.

And no, there are plenty of processes in life where you can "give to one without taking from another" (e.g. stocks). If everything in life were a zero-sum game (e.g. FOREX), then society would never improve because there would literally be no growth.

The theme of the thread seems to be a cry for "justice" for the daca's. You attempted to "justify" the dacas rights to taxpayer subsidized stuff. Executive orders about daca were a policy (some say was illegal in the first place) - not a law.

 

[OathTaker]

No, med students can get loans for the full cost of attendance without providing any parental information whatsoever. "Expected parental contribution" doesn't matter at all if an applicant chooses to not report parental tax info (or can't due to their parents evading taxes).

And certainly this loophole just like the illegals should be closed as well in the name of "justice".

 

[aalamruad]

And certainly this loophole just like the illegals should be closed as well in the name of "justice".

Are you serious? This isn't a "loophole".. if people don't get along with their parents, or if their parents choose to not disclose their tax info to their children, you don't think they should be allowed to take out loans for the full COA to go to med school?

 

[Foot Fetish]

As a LEGAL immigrant to the U.S., I have no sympathy for illegal aliens. Come here through the appropriate channels or get out. It's as simple as that. It's not a humanitarian issue. These bleeding heart liberals make it seem like everyone in the world is entitled to come to the U.S, which is just ridiculous. Yeah, I'm well aware how difficult it can be to get citizenship. All I have to say is, if you can't get in legally, then tough luck. Borders are a basic tenant of any nation, and enforcing them shouldn't even be a topic of political debate. Our government should focus on the prosperity of its own citizens first and foremost. It's not like we have any shortage of domestic issues...Seriously, lets first solve American homelessness before we even start to think about letting in random refugees from God knows where.

 

[aalamruad]

As a LEGAL immigrant to the U.S., I have no sympathy for illegal aliens. Come here through the appropriate channels or get out. It's as simple as that. It's not a humanitarian issue. These bleeding heart liberals make it seem like everyone in the world is entitled to come to the U.S, which is just ridiculous. Yeah, I'm well aware how difficult it can be to get citizenship. All I have to say is, if you can't get in legally, then tough luck. Borders are a basic tenant of any nation, and enforcing them shouldn't even be a topic of political debate. Our government should focus on the prosperity of its own citizens first and foremost.

Congrats on your legal immigration. mad props. but an infant or young child who was brought to the US didn't really have the option to go "through the appropriate channels." What this all boils down to is a technicality that makes you pissed at people for something they were forced to do as babies.

 

[OathTaker]

Congrats on your legal immigration. mad props. but an infant or young child who was brought to the US didn't really have the option to go "through the appropriate channels." What this all boils down to is a technicality that makes you pissed at people for something they were forced to do as babies.

'How does anybody force a child to go to school? Especially one who is an illegal alien? Wouldn't the parent be breaking the law and taking from the tax payer? Should it not have been stopped there?

 

[OathTaker]

Are you serious? This isn't a "loophole".. if people don't get along with their parents, or if their parents choose to not disclose their tax info to their children, you don't think they should be allowed to take out loans for the full COA to go to med school?

Loans or federal subsidized loans?

 

[aalamruad]

How does anybody force a child to go to school? Especially one who is an illegal alien?

What..? They were forced to immigrate here as young children. They didn't have any say in the matter.

At what point do you think we should absolve people of the "crime" of being born to parents who are "criminals"?

 

[aalamruad]

Loans or federal subsidized loans?

Stafford unsubsidized + GradPLUS

 

[OathTaker]

As a LEGAL immigrant to the U.S., I have no sympathy for illegal aliens. Come here through the appropriate channels or get out. It's as simple as that. It's not a humanitarian issue. These bleeding heart liberals make it seem like everyone in the world is entitled to come to the U.S, which is just ridiculous. Yeah, I'm well aware how difficult it can be to get citizenship. All I have to say is, if you can't get in legally, then tough luck. Borders are a basic tenant of any nation, and enforcing them shouldn't even be a topic of political debate. Our government should focus on the prosperity of its own citizens first and foremost. It's not like we have any shortage of domestic issues...Seriously, lets first solve American homelessness before we even start to think about letting in random refugees from God knows where.

Mexico is certainly welcome to subsidize their students to learn here in the US. Most US medical schools would take the check.

 

[OathTaker]

What..? They were forced to immigrate here as young children. They didn't have any say in the matter.

At what point do you think we should absolve people of the "crime" of being born to parents who are criminals?

They should never have been enrolled in US schools. When do you absolve the American taxpayer for what the dreamers have cost the US in terms of tax dollars and services that legal US citizens were denied (like medical school spot)? Or do you keep on punishing the taxpayer and enabling the illegals taking from them?

 

[OathTaker]

Stafford unsubsidized + GradPLUS

Approve of private loans but not federal subsidized and insured. Do not approve of the part of their tuition that is subsidized with US tax dollars.

 

[OathTaker]

As a LEGAL immigrant to the U.S., I have no sympathy for illegal aliens. Come here through the appropriate channels or get out. It's as simple as that. It's not a humanitarian issue. These bleeding heart liberals make it seem like everyone in the world is entitled to come to the U.S, which is just ridiculous. Yeah, I'm well aware how difficult it can be to get citizenship. All I have to say is, if you can't get in legally, then tough luck. Borders are a basic tenant of any nation, and enforcing them shouldn't even be a topic of political debate. Our government should focus on the prosperity of its own citizens first and foremost. It's not like we have any shortage of domestic issues...Seriously, lets first solve American homelessness before we even start to think about letting in random refugees from God knows where.

Not only come here illegally but obtain US subsidized healthcare, education, food stamps (yes they do get them) housing paid for by US citizen taxpayers.