What Will Happen to Undocumented Doctors?

[itscomplicateddd]

www.theatlantic.com/video/index/515466/what-will-happen-to-undocumented-doctors/

What are your thoughts regarding undocumented doctors? I wanted to ask because I was browsing Reddit, and the general vibe that I got from /r/medicalschool seems to be hostility towards undocumented medical students. They are clearly intelligent and talented, but they are in a limbo that they cannot get out of.

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[knight on horse]

www.theatlantic.com/video/index/515466/what-will-happen-to-undocumented-doctors/

What are your thoughts regarding undocumented doctors? I wanted to ask because I was browsing Reddit, and the general vibe that I got from /r/medicalschool seems to be hostility towards undocumented medical students. They are clearly intelligent and talented, but they are in a limbo that they cannot get out of.

If they are so intelligent and talented *, it should be easy to go through the legitimate immigration process.

* Remember that there is affirmative action in place

 

[futuremdforme]

If they are so intelligent and talented *, it should be easy to go through the legitimate immigration process.

* Remember that there is affirmative action in place

The entire reason there has been a multi-year discussion about immigration reform is that it's not easy no matter what. I have no idea what it would involve for people whose parents brought them here illegally as children.

With regard to these students, someone obviously thought they were smarter than the 60% of US applicants that didn't get in to med school in the year they applied, so it's a shame they won't be able to practice. I would hope they are at least able to finish up their med school even if they have to do residency and practice elsewhere. It's a shame to waste talent and education.

 

[mcloaf]

If they are so intelligent and talented *, it should be easy to go through the legitimate immigration process.

* Remember that there is affirmative action in place

At least come out and say what you think, rather than couching it in footnotes.

 

[fastlane]

That is messed up that they were allowed into medical school without documentation. Especially when so many qualified US citizens are unable to get spots

Sent from my SM-G930P using SDN mobile

 

[gapyearguppy]

Are you allowed to get into medical school undocumented? I have classmates who are not citizens but they are "documented" in some way - school visas, green cards, etc.

 

[PL198]

My thoughts are no different than other undocumented people. Being a doctor doesn't change the law

 

[Raryn]

Are you allowed to get into medical school undocumented? I have classmates who are not citizens but they are "documented" in some way - school visas, green cards, etc.

The DACA participants ("dreamers") are the only undocumented individuals who can be in medical schools. There's a dozen or two total across the country. The program allowing this might be rescinded at any time, but for now it's legal.

There are also any number of permanent residents (green card holders) or people on a long term student visa, but there's no legal questions there. I can think of a couple Canadians who were in my med school class. One guy became a US citizen and is now practicing here, the other went back to Canada and is now an attending there.

 

[Stagg737]

The DACA participants ("dreamers") are the only undocumented individuals who can be in medical schools. There's a dozen or two total across the country. The program allowing this might be rescinded at any time, but for now it's legal.

According to the article above there are around 65 (still not huge, just trying to make sure we're getting the numbers right).

That is messed up that they were allowed into medical school without documentation. Especially when so many qualified US citizens are unable to get spots

Sent from my SM-G930P using SDN mobile

Are you allowed to get into medical school undocumented? I have classmates who are not citizens but they are "documented" in some way - school visas, green cards, etc.

If you read the article, it says that over half of the 65 med students that fall into this category attend Loyola's med school. I know Loyola's med school now sets aside a certain number of seats each year (I believe it's 5) for individuals who obtained DACA status after Obama's Dream act passed. Their argument was that undocumented immigrants in the U.S. don't receive the medical care they need and they want to train physicians that those immigrants will trust so they can provide them with care: http://ssom.luc.edu/daca/

Setting aside the actual immigration and providing care arguments, I found the act of setting aside seats specifically for undocumented individuals to be ethically questionable at the very least. Chicago has a massive population of hispanic immigrants, and providing seats specifically for those who came here illegally is a slap in the face to those immigrants who struggled for years to become legal residents or citizens here. I also find the idea that an undocumented hispanic immigrant would be able to connect with other undocumented immigrants better than an immigrant who is now legally documented here to show a lack of insight into the culture of the communities they're trying to serve.

 

[mcloaf]

According to the article above there are around 65 (still not huge, just trying to make sure we're getting the numbers right).

If you read the article, it says that over half of the 65 med students that fall into this category attend Loyola's med school. I know Loyola's med school now sets aside a certain number of seats each year (I believe it's 5) for individuals who obtained DACA status after Obama's Dream act passed. Their argument was that undocumented immigrants in the U.S. don't receive the medical care they need and they want to train physicians that those immigrants will trust so they can provide them with care: http://ssom.luc.edu/daca/

Setting aside the actual immigration and providing care arguments, I found the act of setting aside seats specifically for undocumented individuals to be ethically questionable at the very least. Chicago has a massive population of hispanic immigrants, and providing seats specifically for those who came here illegally is a slap in the face to those immigrants who struggled for years to become legal residents or citizens here. I also find the idea that an undocumented hispanic immigrant would be able to connect with other undocumented immigrants better than an immigrant who is now legally documented here to show a lack of insight into the culture of the communities they're trying to serve.

What you're saying seems to be in direct contradiction to their published info: http://ssom.luc.edu/media/stritchschoolofmedicine/daca/dreamers-faq-aug2015.pdf

"Do DREAMers take away admissions slots from other applicants? No. The Stritch School of Medicine does not dedicate spots to any category of applicant. Consistent with that long-standing policy, no adjustment has been made to the number of admission slots available to accommodate DREAMers. Stritch has gradually been increasing the number of admission slots in recent years. This is part of a nation effort to expand the physician workforce. According to the Association of American Medical Colleges Center for Workforce Studies, medical schools will be graduating 30 percent more students in the coming years to address the national physician shortage."

 

[Stagg737]

What you're saying seems to be in direct contradiction to their published info: http://ssom.luc.edu/media/stritchschoolofmedicine/daca/dreamers-faq-aug2015.pdf

"Do DREAMers take away admissions slots from other applicants? No. The Stritch School of Medicine does not dedicate spots to any category of applicant. Consistent with that long-standing policy, no adjustment has been made to the number of admission slots available to accommodate DREAMers. Stritch has gradually been increasing the number of admission slots in recent years. This is part of a nation effort to expand the physician workforce. According to the Association of American Medical Colleges Center for Workforce Studies, medical schools will be graduating 30 percent more students in the coming years to address the national physician shortage."

Interesting, when I was applying to med school 4-5 years ago I had a friend there who said they were adding X number of slots (I think it was 5, which is where that came from in my first post) that they were trying to fill with "DREAMers". I also remember reading a few newspaper articles around that time that talked about Loyola doing this and how proud Loyola was to be supporting those who wanted to improve their lives and the lives of their community or something along those lines. Granted, that was before the link you posted was written so Loyola may have changed their policy or my friend may have been wrong. Idk which is the case, but even if they aren't reserving any positions for undocumented immigrants it doesn't change the ethical argument I mentioned in my previous post.

 

[68PGunner]

Interesting, when I was applying to med school 4-5 years ago I had a friend there who said they were adding X number of slots (I think it was 5, which is where that came from in my first post) that they were trying to fill with "DREAMers". I also remember reading a few newspaper articles around that time that talked about Loyola doing this and how proud Loyola was to be supporting those who wanted to improve their lives and the lives of their community or something along those lines. Granted, that was before the link you posted was written so Loyola may have changed their policy or my friend may have been wrong. Idk which is the case, but even if they aren't reserving any positions for undocumented immigrants it doesn't change the ethical argument I mentioned in my previous post.

They probably rephrase the wordings on their website to protect against political backlash from this current administration. However, when 1/2 of DACA med students attend a certain school, there's def preferential treatment for DACA in their admission mission somewhere.

 

[GadRads]

Are you allowed to get into medical school undocumented? I have classmates who are not citizens but they are "documented" in some way - school visas, green cards, etc.

True.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

If they are so intelligent and talented *, it should be easy to go through the legitimate immigration process.

Aside from marriage, a "legitimate process" doesn't exist for many who were brought here as minors.

 

[68PGunner]

Is it really preferential treatment? Couldn't it be considered that maybe they just fit the mission of the school?
Most top schools have preferential treatment for students heavily invested in research or preferential treatment for students with top grades. I think it's difficult to say what "preferential treatment" is if the basis of selection is dependent on just fulfilling the school's mission.
Most importantly, I don't think we can tell a school what its mission should be.

What's the mission here? Is it to provide free quality healthcare service to illegal immigrants? I find that mission to be a joke.

Regardless, it's obviously not incidental when 50% of all DACA med students attend the same school.

 

[deleted480308]

What you're saying seems to be in direct contradiction to their published info: http://ssom.luc.edu/media/stritchschoolofmedicine/daca/dreamers-faq-aug2015.pdf

"Do DREAMers take away admissions slots from other applicants? No. The Stritch School of Medicine does not dedicate spots to any category of applicant. Consistent with that long-standing policy, no adjustment has been made to the number of admission slots available to accommodate DREAMers. Stritch has gradually been increasing the number of admission slots in recent years. This is part of a nation effort to expand the physician workforce. According to the Association of American Medical Colleges Center for Workforce Studies, medical schools will be graduating 30 percent more students in the coming years to address the national physician shortage."

Their answer contradicts itself. If the dreamers weren't in those seats, an american citizen could be...thus the seats are "taken" from the pool of american citizens.

Right or wrong is debatable, pretending it isn't happening is insulting

 

[username456789]

www.theatlantic.com/video/index/515466/what-will-happen-to-undocumented-doctors/

What are your thoughts regarding undocumented doctors? I wanted to ask because I was browsing Reddit, and the general vibe that I got from /r/medicalschool seems to be hostility towards undocumented medical students. They are clearly intelligent and talented, but they are in a limbo that they cannot get out of.

The whole use of "undocumented" is such a bizarre and silly exercise in linguistic gymnastics people have undertaken to avoid having to describe them properly.

 

[username456789]

Their answer contradicts itself. If the dreamers weren't in those seats, an american citizen could be...thus the seats are "taken" from the pool of american citizens.

Right or wrong is debatable, pretending it isn't happening is insulting

Exactly. But they're hoping people like mcloaf won't think critically about it.

 

[aalamruad]

No one is stealing anyone's spot in med school, because no one has the right to a spot in the first place. Med schools have the right and responsibility to accept those they deem most fit to serve patients in the future, and they certainly don't have a duty to favor certain applicants because they were born above an imaginary line.

Family A illegally moves to the US from Mexico and gives birth to child B a year later. Family A doesn't pay taxes or contribute to US society in any way over the next 20 years, but child B has the right to go to med school. Family C gives birth to child D in Mexico and illegally moves to the US a year later. Family C contributes to US society over the next 20 years, but D shouldn't be allowed to go to med school even if s/he is a stronger applicant than B? We should punish D for a decision his/her parents made when s/he was an infant? Please explain to me why that makes any sense.

When the foundation of these immigration laws is so arbitrary and illogical, and when patient outcomes are on the line, it's time to recognize that laws and ethics aren't the same thing.

 

[W19]

Their answer contradicts itself. If the dreamers weren't in those seats, an american citizen could be...thus the seats are "taken" from the pool of american citizens.

Right or wrong is debatable, pretending it isn't happening is insulting

I guess we should apply the same logic for residency... Some immigrant might take my derm spot... Trump for 2020! Americans first!

 

[Astra]

No one is stealing anyone's spot in med school, because no one has the right to a spot in the first place. Med schools have the right and responsibility to accept those they deem most fit to serve patients in the future, and they certainly don't have a duty to favor certain applicants because they were born above an imaginary line.

You are right that no one has a right to a certain spot in the first place. But if a med school receives funding from our tax payer dollars, I find it insulting to give preferential treatment to illegal immigrants. If it is a private med school that receives no taxpayer funding, they can do whatever they want as long as it doesn't break any laws.

Family A illegally moves to the US from Mexico and gives birth to child B a year later. Family A doesn't pay taxes or contribute to US society in any way over the next 20 years, but child B has the right to go to med school. Family C gives birth to child D in Mexico and illegally moves to the US a year later. Family C contributes to US society over the next 20 years, but D shouldn't be allowed to go to med school even if s/he is a stronger applicant than B? We should punish D for a decision his/her parents made when s/he was an infant? Please explain to me why that makes any sense.

Just as you said earlier, no one has a right to the spot in the first place, so legally Child C should be given the spot. However, my opinion is that Child D should begin a process to atleast get a Visa or greencard and then apply to med school.

When the foundation of these immigration laws is so arbitrary and illogical, and when patient outcomes are on the line, it's time to recognize that laws and ethics aren't the same thing.

What about immigration laws do you think is arbitrary and illogical? ( I'm an naturalized citizen myself and although the process took many years to complete, my family found it fairly straightforward and fair.)



Also,

The reason for accepting DACA DREAMers is:

"The United States is facing a significant shortage of physicians. In addition, large portions of the U.S. population are underserved by the current distribution and demographic profile of physicians. DREAMers represent a previously untapped source of qualified and diverse talent that will enrich the medical education environment, the medical profession, and the lives of patients. DREAMers generally are bicultural, bilingual, and possess insight into the migrant experience. In a nation with a large recent immigrant population, DREAMers can increase the capacity of the physician workforce to treat the array of patients encountered in clinical practices"


So my question is, are there not enough legal immigrants to fill the spots and address the needs that DACA DREAMers are being given access to?

Also, what is stopping these DREAMer graduates from not practicing in underserved/immigrant populations?

 

[Mr Roboto]

What you're saying seems to be in direct contradiction to their published info: http://ssom.luc.edu/media/stritchschoolofmedicine/daca/dreamers-faq-aug2015.pdf

"Do DREAMers take away admissions slots from other applicants? No. The Stritch School of Medicine does not dedicate spots to any category of applicant. Consistent with that long-standing policy, no adjustment has been made to the number of admission slots available to accommodate DREAMers. Stritch has gradually been increasing the number of admission slots in recent years. This is part of a nation effort to expand the physician workforce. According to the Association of American Medical Colleges Center for Workforce Studies, medical schools will be graduating 30 percent more students in the coming years to address the national physician shortage."

I can't read good.

 

[Astra]

They could've added spots at their school to be taken by whoever is the most qualified candidate, but instead they reserved the new spots for illegal immigrants.

From my understanding, they added more seats and allowed illegal immigrants to compete in the application pool. That is slightly different than adding more seats exclusively for illegal immigrants



Are DREAMers’ applications treated preferentially in regard to selection for admission?

No. DREAMers do not receive special treatment in the Stritch School of Medicine selection process. They must compete on the same level required of all applicant for admission. Many DREAMer applicants have outstanding qualifications and they contribute to the competitive nature of the applicant pool.

 

[aalamruad]

You are right that no one has a right to a certain spot in the first place. But if a med school receives funding from our tax payer dollars, I find it insulting to give preferential treatment to illegal immigrants. If it is a private med school that receives no taxpayer funding, they can do whatever they want as long as it doesn't break any laws.

That line of logic is completely inconsistent with the fact that US citizens whose parents don't pay taxes are still allowed to go to med school and practice medicine. There's no verification that an applicant's family has paid taxes and contributed to US society. We shouldn't punish or discriminate against children for their parents' illegal acts.

Just as you said earlier, no one has a right to the spot in the first place, so legally Child C should be given the spot. However, my opinion is that Child D should begin a process to atleast get a Visa or greencard and then apply to med school.

There's no Child C, I'll assume you meant Child D.

Is there a path to getting a Visa or greencard for DREAMers? I thought I remembered the med student in the video in the OP saying there's currently no path to legalization. If a Visa or greencard is possible without deportation first, it seems like that would be a pretty solid compromise.

What about immigration laws do you think is arbitrary and illogical? ( I'm an naturalized citizen myself and although the process took many years to complete, my family found it fairly straightforward and fair.)

It's illogical to punish people for decisions their parents made when they weren't even old enough to walk or talk yet. Again, we shouldn't punish people for their parents' actions.

Also,

The reason for accepting DACA DREAMers is:

"The United States is facing a significant shortage of physicians. In addition, large portions of the U.S. population are underserved by the current distribution and demographic profile of physicians. DREAMers represent a previously untapped source of qualified and diverse talent that will enrich the medical education environment, the medical profession, and the lives of patients. DREAMers generally are bicultural, bilingual, and possess insight into the migrant experience. In a nation with a large recent immigrant population, DREAMers can increase the capacity of the physician workforce to treat the array of patients encountered in clinical practices"


So my question is, are there not enough legal immigrants to fill the spots and address the needs that DACA DREAMers are being given access to?

Correct. Underserved populations are underserved for a reason; by definition, we don't yet have enough people filling those spots.

Also, what is stopping these DREAMer graduates from not practicing in underserved/immigrant populations?

A sense of an ethical duty to help people from their culture, I would assume. But you'd have to ask them. Nothing that's legally stopping them, as far as I know.

 

[aalamruad]

They could've added spots at their school to be taken by whoever is the most qualified candidate, but instead they reserved the new spots for illegal immigrants.

"Our hospital doesn't reserve beds for Major Donors... but we did open a special wing that we're reserving only for Major Donors."

If the school's mission is to help serve underserved populations, then DREAMers - who are very likely to serve underserved immigrants - are in fact the most qualified candidates for those spots.

Please tell me - what did the DREAMers do that was illegal? When they were infants, did they decide to illegally immigrate to the US? Do you think they had a choice in the matter? You think they shouldn't have the right to study/practice medicine because of something they were forced to do as young children.

 

[cbrons]

Undocumented doctors get calls to finish their dictations/charting or the hospital can't bill for their services at the highest level.

 

[mcloaf]

They could've added spots at their school to be taken by whoever is the most qualified candidate, but instead they reserved the new spots for illegal immigrants.

"Our hospital doesn't reserve beds for Major Donors... but we did open a special wing that we're reserving only for Major Donors."

I don't see where in what I posted it says they reserve spots for those students. They seem to explicitly state the opposite.

 

[Astra]

That line of logic is completely inconsistent with the fact that US citizens whose parents don't pay taxes are still allowed to go to med school and practice medicine. There's no verification that an applicant's family has paid taxes and contributed to US society.

If a US citizen(s) don't pay taxes then they will get in trouble with the IRS. The reason of my disgust isn't because med school seats are going to people who are not paying taxes. Its because illegal immigrants are being given to access to tax payer funded education while US citizens are being turned down.

Is there a path to getting a Visa or greencard for DREAMers? I thought I remembered the med student in the video in the OP saying there's currently no path to legalization. If a Visa or greencard is possible without deportation first, it seems like that would be a pretty solid compromise.

I agree. There should be a Visa/Greencard process for children who were brought here illegally before 20XX.

It's illogical to punish people for decisions their parents made when they weren't even old enough to walk or talk yet. Again, we shouldn't punish people for their parents' actions.

That's not illogical. There are a set of rules and the parents broke them. Certain forms of debt get transferred to children if the parents die. Is that illogical? No. Just immoral depending on the perspective.

Once again, I think a pathway to a visa/greencard for children brought here illegally would be good.

A sense of an ethical duty to help people from their culture, I would assume. But you'd have to ask them.

that's not enough IMO. There should be some legal stipulation that you have to practice in an underserved/immigrant community. Otherwise this program is bound to be abused

 

[mcloaf]

Exactly. But they're hoping people like mcloaf won't think critically about it.

If they are otherwise qualified and will make good physicians then I wish them good luck. I'd much rather work with a DREAMer than a smug attending who spends his weekends anonymously taking jabs at med students on the internet.

 

[aalamruad]

If a US citizen(s) don't pay taxes then they will get in trouble with the IRS.

Not really. Unless they're very rich, the only thing that happens is they get annoying phone calls. I've worked extensively with people who couldn't pay taxes (for very complicated personal reasons that I won't disclose here), and there aren't any real consequences.

The reason of my disgust isn't because med school seats are going to people who are not paying taxes. Its because illegal immigrants are being given to access to tax payer funded education while US citizens are being turned down.

Right, but if you take taxes off the table, explain to me what the meaningful differences are between US citizens and immigrants who were illegally brought here as young children. There are none.

You can't really say "the reason of my disgust isn't because med school seats are going to people who are not paying taxes" and then immediately say you don't like that illegal immigrants are getting access to taxpayer money through education. You definitely seem to think that taxpayer money is relevant here, when it's really not.

I agree. There should be a Visa/Greencard process for children who were brought here illegally before 20XX.



That's not illogical. There are a set of rules and the parents broke them. Certain forms of debt get transferred to children if the parents die. Is that illogical? No. Just immoral depending on the perspective.

Yes, it is illogical. No kid should be punished for the actions of another person. It's horribly illogical and immoral.

Once again, I think a pathway to a visa/greencard for children brought here illegally would be good.



that's not enough IMO. There should be some legal stipulation that you have to practice in an underserved/immigrant community. Otherwise this program is bound to be abused

There are actually some programs out there that require med students to proceed into primary care in underserved areas after med school. Some 3-year primary care tracks, I believe.

 

[cbrons]

I've worked extensively with people who couldn't pay taxes (for very complicated personal reasons that I won't disclose here), and there aren't any real consequences.

 

[aalamruad]

Got something to say?

 

[cbrons]

Got something to say?

No, no no sir. Please carry on with your incredibly boring political conversation that probably belongs in Sociopolitical forums and not here. Please continue...

 

[deleted480308]

I guess we should apply the same logic for residency... Some immigrant might take my derm spot... Trump for 2020! Americans first!

for illegals? No they shouldn't be able to even apply

 

[Astra]

Right, but if you take taxes off the table, explain to me what the meaningful differences are between US citizens and immigrants who were illegally brought here as young children. There are none. They're all human, full stop.

The difference is one is here legally and the other isn't.

You can't really say "the reason of my disgust isn't because med school seats are going to people who are not paying taxes" and then immediately say you don't like that illegal immigrants are getting access to taxpayer money through education.

I can say that and I will. The reason I don't like illegal immigrants getting access to taxpayer funded education is that its an insult to those who legally immigrated here and spent decades earning the rights that are being bestowed upon those who came here illegally. Simple as that. I don't care what ethnicity someone is. As long as they go through the proper legal avenues to getting a visa/greencard/citizenship, they are welcome here.

Yes, it is illogical. No kid should be punished for the actions of another person.

Take the perspective of someone who loaned out money to someone else. Then the person died without repaying. Should the person's family who loaned out money suffer? To them, having the children pay back the parent's debt is logical ( this is how it works in many countries around the world btw)

There are actually some programs out there that require med students to proceed into primary care in underserved areas after med school. Some 3-year primary care tracks, I believe.

Yup. That should be implemented to this DREAMer program.


It seems others think we are derailing this thread. Lets continue this in PMs if you wanna keep discussing

 

[Mr Roboto]

I don't see where in what I posted it says they reserve spots for those students. They seem to explicitly state the opposite.

You're right, I just can't read. I'm sorry. Thank you for educating me.

 

[aalamruad]

The difference is one is here legally and the other isn't.

Of course, but my whole point is that the laws are inconsistent with ethics in this case, that's why I said "meaningful" differences. An infant who was forced to immigrate to the US didn't do anything illegal. There's no guilt without autonomy.

I can say that and I will. The reason I don't like illegal immigrants getting access to taxpayer funded education is that its an insult to those who legally immigrated here and spent decades earning the rights that are being bestowed upon those who came here illegally. Simple as that. I don't care what ethnicity someone is. As long as they go through the proper legal avenues to getting a visa/greencard/citizenship, they are welcome here.

I feel like we're starting to talk past each other. Again, young children didn't even have the option to go through the proper channels.

Take the perspective of someone who loaned out money to someone else. Then the person died without repaying. Should the person's family who loaned out money suffer? To them, having the children pay back the parent's debt is logical ( this is how it works in many countries around the world btw)

That person willingly took on a risk to loan out money with the hope that s/he would get a return on the investment. It's on him/her if that doesn't pan out favorably. I challenge you to find a situation in the US where children can be punished for the actions of others.

Yup. That should be implemented to this DREAMer program.


It seems others think we are derailing this thread. Lets continue this in PMs if you wanna keep discussing

I feel like we're staying perfectly on topic. Not to mention we're staying pretty respectful, which is uncommon for such a heated topic in the allo forum! It seems that cbrons is the only one who's annoyed by our conversation, but I literally couldn't care less about what he thinks haha

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

for illegals? No they shouldn't be able to even apply

Why not? If they get in, they have to pay just like everyone else.

 

[Astra]

I feel like we're starting to talk past each other. Again, young children didn't even have the option to go through the proper channels.

I agree hence, my wish for a legal avenue for visa/greencard/citizenship status.

That person willingly took on a risk to loan out money with the hope that s/he would get a return on the investment. It's on him/her if that doesn't pan out favorably.

Eh. I think its unfair to blame the person who loaned out the money in all scenarios.

I challenge you to find a situation in the US where children can be punished for the actions of others.

IIRC, if a parent commits a crime while on a visa, they can be deported along with their family.

This was the case for my family as if my dad did a crime, we'd all have to leave the country because we were all here on his work visa.

I feel like we're staying perfectly on topic. Not to mention we're staying pretty respectful, which is uncommon for such a heated topic in the allo forum!

I agree!

It seems that cbrons is the only one who's annoyed by our conversation, but I literally couldn't care less about what he thinks haha

lol

 

[aalamruad]

I agree hence, my wish for a legal avenue for visa/greencard/citizenship status.

We're definitely on the same page there!

Eh. I think its unfair to blame the person who loaned out the money in all scenarios.

Well loans aren't gifts. The reason loans exist is that the loaner is hoping to make money, so it would really be a pretty ridiculous system to remove all risk for the loaner by forcing the borrower's family to be responsible for the loan too. I'm glad that's not the system in place in the US.

IIRC, if a parent commits a crime while on a visa, they can be deported along with their family.

This was the case for my family as if my dad did a crime, we'd all have to leave the country because we were all here on his work visa.

I agree!

lol

Very interesting, I've actually heard the opposite to be the case in a lot of situations (children of deported immigrants often enter the foster care system in the US, so they're not forced to leave with their parents). But I don't know anything about the work visa system, it sounds like it's very different than the deportation system for illegal immigrants.

 

[Raryn]

That's not illogical. There are a set of rules and the parents broke them. Certain forms of debt get transferred to children if the parents die. Is that illogical? No. Just immoral depending on the perspective.

As far as I know, if you die and your estate has a negative worth, it dies with you. Obviously, the debts get paid before any inheritance, but outside of the situation of a married couple (where the spouse is generally liable for the debt of the deceased) or if you're a cosigner on a loan (which means it's your loan as well), I don't believe you can actually lose money via inheritance.

For example, you can inherit a house+mortgage, but if the house isn't worth as much as the mortgage, the estate can sell the house, pay whatever they can to the bank, and then dissolve (with the bank stuck taking the loss). The executor is out the time it took to settle the matter, but may be able to charge the estate for his services, and the heir gets nothing one way or the other.

Very interesting, I've actually heard the opposite to be the case in a lot of situations (children of deported immigrants often enter the foster care system in the US, so they're not forced to leave with their parents). But I don't know anything about the work visa system, it sounds like it's very different than the deportation system for illegal immigrants.

Children born in the US get to stay here if the parents want. Because they're US citizens. Children born abroad get sent back with the rest of the family.

 

[Astra]

As far as I know, if you die and your estate has a negative worth, it dies with you. Obviously, the debts get paid before any inheritance, but outside of the situation of a married couple (where the spouse is generally liable for the debt of the deceased) or if you're a cosigner on a loan (which means it's your loan as well), I don't believe you can actually lose money via inheritance.

For example, you can inherit a house+mortgage, but if the house isn't worth as much as the mortgage, the estate can sell the house, pay whatever they can to the bank, and then dissolve (with the bank stuck taking the loss). The executor is out the time it took to settle the matter, but may be able to charge the estate for his services, and the heir gets nothing one way or the other.

Yea I am pretty sure you are correct. I've heard conflicting things regarding medical debt and student loans ( some say that they get transferred to family members, others say they don't)

 

[Astra]

Well loans aren't gifts. The reason loans exist is that the loaner is hoping to make money, so it would really be a pretty ridiculous system to remove all risk for the loaner by forcing the borrower's family to be responsible for the loan too. I'm glad that's not the system in place in the US.

Back where I'm from, there are tons of small farming villages and when people give out loans, its usually to family members or to friends. People not paying back loans is relatively rare and when it does happen, its the social norm ( possibly even legal) for the children to pay back the parents' debts.

Its interesting seeing various cultural norms as they all make sense to that culture but seem weird to outsiders

 

[W19]

for illegals? No they shouldn't be able to even apply

You said they are taking US citizen spots... Well, medical school accepts many applicants that aren't US citizens. Some DREAMers are under the DACA status; therefore, they are not illegal or undocumented (whatever bs term the left uses) (as least for now). As far as I am concerned, US citizens and green card holders should have priority when it comes to med school admission and residency, but that is not the system we have right now. I just don't understand why you have an issue with individuals who are under DACA that are attending med school and not other non us citizens who are enjoying the same privilege.

 

[deleted480308]

You said they are taking US citizen spots... Well, medical school accepts many applicants that aren't US citizens. Some DREAMers are under the DACA status; therefore, they are not illegal or undocumented (whatever bs term the left uses) (as least for now). As far as I am concerned, US citizens and green card holders should have priority when it comes to med school admission and residency, but that is not the system we have right now. I just don't understand why you have an issue with individuals who are under DACA that are attending med school and not other non us citizens who are enjoying the same privilege.

Because one group should be deported and the other group is here legally. But if you feel you can't see that difference and need to ban all noncitizens, fine

 

[W19]

Because one group should be deported and the other group is here legally. But if you feel you can't see that difference and need to ban all noncitizens, fine

So you have an issue with our immigration policies then--not med school admission policies...

Individuals who are under DACA are NOT illegal right now albeit they came here illegally. That is the distinction you should make.

 

[deleted480308]

So you have an issue with our immigration policies then--not med school admission policies...

Individuals who are under DACA are NOT illegal right now albeit they came here illegally. That is the distinction you should make.

I'm sorry but you are wrong. DACA wasn't a law, it was a policy of selective nonenforcement. It doesn't make anyone legal. It was an executive branch abuse of power

 

[Beezlebub]

I had my suspicion in the past on identifying the most liberal medical school.

"Sixty-five are in medical school in the United States, and approximately half of them are enrolled in the Loyola-Stritch School of Medicine in Chicago"

Not sure if source is true so please don't quote me. I'll fact check after a couple hrs of studying.

 

[W19]

I'm sorry but you are wrong. DACA wasn't a law, it was a policy of selective nonenforcement. It doesn't make anyone legal. It was an executive branch abuse of power

Did I say DACA was a a law? Nope... There are a many laws that US government or the executive branch (depending who is in the WH) chooses not to enforce. This is nothing new.

I know DACA is not a law, but it's more than a selective non enforcement... It was an EXECUTIVE ORDER.

 

[deleted480308]

Did I say DACA was a a law? Nope... There are a many laws that US government or the executive branch (depending who is in the WH) chooses not to enforce. This is nothing new.

I know DACA is not a law, but it's more than a selective non enforcement... It was an EXECUTIVE ORDER.

an executive order that was selective non-enforcement. You can like it or not, but they are still illegal in status