What is the average take home monthly salary for dental associate fresh out of school?

[Eric74]

Is between $8000 to $9000 reasonable or too low?

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[rivarat]

Is between $8000 to $9000 reasonable or too low?

After federal income tax, that could be accurate or high.

Then, deduct $4000 per month for loan repayment.

So real take home (not considering insurances, retirement savings, etc.) would be about 4000-5000.

 

[free99]

If you're talking about pre-tax dollars, it's probably a little low but within the ballpark.

 

[Incis0r]

Sounds right.

 

[Cold Front]

Is between $8000 to $9000 reasonable or too low?

Typically new grad associate dentists make $450-600 a day based on the market. The more rural, the higher the pay, and vice-versa.

Let's take a middle number of $500 per day (which has been the case for the past decade or so).

$500 a day = $2,500 a week = about $10k a month before taxes.

For tax purposes, being a 6 figure income earner, single without dependents means higher taxes from your check. So based on where you work/live; federal, state and city taxes can easily add up t0 30% of your check. So Taxes could be $3,000 of your monthly check.

You are left with $7,000 net a month before other expenses.

Then these monthly expenses await:

- Student loans (these days, that's a big number, IBR can help).
- Mortgage/rent/utilities (living with parents may mean $0, if not, $1,500 a month is typical).
- Car expenses/gas/medical insurance/cell phone/credit cards/etc (can add up to $1,000+)
- Food and social life (this can add up quickly)
Total: This is a big number (minimum $4,000-5,000).

You save $1,000-2,000 a month, you are doing good. Hence, I didn't add clothes shopping and travel expenses to the monthly numbers.

Your income will get better in the future, so as your savings.

 

[Franklo]

Jesus. This is totally not sustainable. I give it 5-10 years before half the private dental schools either shutdown or start running into deep problems.

 

[cmcner]

Jesus. This is totally not sustainable. I give it 5-10 years before half the private dental schools either shutdown or start running into deep problems.

That's what they were saying 5-10 years ago when I started dental school. Yet the bubble continues to grow. Also I think Cold Front's numbers are pretty accurate.

 

[Cello]

It is certainly unsustainable, but as long as dental students have the highest student loan repayment rate of any profession lenders will continue to see us as a safe gamble and schools will continue to charge a premium for tuition. I think it will be a while yet before anything changes. When it does, it will greatly benefit everyone already in the market though just like it did in the 1980s and 1990s after the dental school collapse in the 1970s.

 

[Cold Front]

It is certainly unsustainable, but as long as dental students have the highest student loan repayment rate of any profession lenders will continue to see us as a safe gamble and schools will continue to charge a premium for tuition. I think it will be a while yet before anything changes. When it does, it will greatly benefit everyone already in the market though just like it did in the 1980s and 1990s after the dental school collapse in the 1970s.

With regards to schools closing, there were at least 5-6 schools that opened last decade, and plans to open 2-3 more within couple of years. So it seems there is no slowing down in expanding the high cost of Dental education.

One of the interesting things I track is the global numbers in the entire education system; from private high school, college undergrad to professsional schools. One of the indicators that could slow down dental school matriculation is the high cost of the previous stage(s) of education. It would be a domino effect if college education reaches a tipping point, we could see multiple d schools having difficulty filling their classes, which will blow a big hole in the financial and operational structure of those schools.

There is also other potential catalysts to the current bubble. The student debt market is now about $1.5 trillion, which was under heavy scrutiny under the out going president's administration, where the origination of federally backed student loans (the vast majority of student loans) was entirely transferred to the US government. Under Trump administration, it will shift to a more receptive approach, shifting student loans to private lenders. We all know that's going to add more fuel to the fire by increasing lending cost. Future grads could be paying higher debt with even higher cost. Investors are betting this will change to the latter. Shares of the largest private student lender by origination volume, SLM Corp., or Sallie Mae, have led the charge since the November election, rising over 50%, along with other financial indexes that anticipate pro-Trump policies.

This is an interesting time to see this whole thing unfold. We are at getting closer to the cusp.

 

[distressstudent]

Just incase it comes up, for military, it's closer to $6,500/mo after all taxes, etc.

Even with the military's pay chart, there's too many variables to consider to throw out a single number

1. State Tax. Even in a state with state tax, some state won't require service members to pay their share depending on different qualifying factors
2. BAH. Varies too much. Can vary from 12k a month to like 30k a year
3. Tax liability. Congress is trying to push for 1 salary system by 2017. Which means BAH will now be part of your taxable income if it passes

The average number I came up with is much lower than yours. Shows how variable it can be even when we're just considering the 'average'

 

[Franklo]

With regards to schools closing, there were at least 5-6 schools that opened last decade, and plans to open 2-3 more within couple of years. So it seems there is no slowing down in expanding the high cost of Dental education.

One of the interesting things I track is the global numbers in the entire education system; from private high school, college undergrad to professsional schools. One of the indicators that could slow down dental school matriculation is the high cost of the previous stage(s) of education. It would be a domino effect if college education reaches a tipping point, we could see multiple d schools having difficulty filling their classes, which will blow a big hole in the financial and operational structure of those schools.

There is also other potential catalysts to the current bubble. The student debt market is now about $1.5 trillion, which was under heavy scrutiny under the out going president's administration, where the origination of federally backed student loans (the vast majority of student loans) was entirely transferred to the US government. Under Trump administration, it will shift to a more receptive approach, shifting student loans to private lenders. We all know that's going to add more fuel to the fire by increasing lending cost. Future grads could be paying higher debt with even higher cost. Investors are betting this will change to the latter. Shares of the largest private student lender by origination volume, SLM Corp., or Sallie Mae, have led the charge since the November election, rising over 50%, along with other financial indexes that anticipate pro-Trump policies.

This is an interesting time to see this whole thing unfold. We are at getting closer to the cusp.

^^ This. You sir understand just how f****d this countries new grads with debt are going to be.
On a side note I took a bunch of economics courses in undergrad and every prof I had told us the same thing, the next big bust is coming. Look at how the economy has jumped up and on what its propped itself on and you'll soon realize just how bad it's going to be when the s**t hits the fan. It's going to make 2008 look like a joke.

 

[786783]

Cold Front, you da real MVP in SDN when it comes to breaking it down to numbers and economics in general.
What are the consequences of a student loan bubble bursting?

 

[Cold Front]

^^ This. You sir understand just how f****d this countries new grads with debt are going to be.
On a side note I took a bunch of economics courses in undergrad and every prof I had told us the same thing, the next big bust is coming. Look at how the economy has jumped up and on what its propped itself on and you'll soon realize just how bad it's going to be when the s**t hits the fan. It's going to make 2008 look like a joke.

There is chatter in Congress now on how to cool off this growing bubble, and they are considering putting caps on how much a student can borrow. They are hoping to particularly go after the Gard Plus loans, which is the "blank check" portion of the loans for graduate students. For whatever reason, the plus loans currently has no limits, and empowered schools to increase tuitions and related expanses as a result.

The plus loan program alone has a balance of over $50 billion for just 1 million borrowers... and growing at a faster pace than any other federal loan program. In comparison to the last housing bubble, when government pushed the banks to give loans to people they couldn’t give back, the plus loan program is now finally being identified as the cancer in the system for the higher education loans.

"IF" grad plus loans are restricted, then it will pressure dental schools from raising their tuitions (or the very least slow down the current path of 5% increases a year). This could impact the number of new dental schools opening or joining the dental education market, and band-aid the debt each student carries when they finish school. My worry is, the damage is already done and the cure came late for the desperate dental students.

We still have the problem of undergraduate loans, residency loans, private practice loans, and beyond to make dentistry as a profession viable in the long term.

 

[TheSandlapper]

Just incase it comes up, for military, it's closer to $6,500/mo after all taxes, etc.

Even with the military's pay chart, there's too many variables to consider to throw out a single number

1. State Tax. Even in a state with state tax, some state won't require service members to pay their share depending on different qualifying factors
2. BAH. Varies too much. Can vary from 12k a month to like 30k a year
3. Tax liability. Congress is trying to push for 1 salary system by 2017. Which means BAH will now be part of your taxable income if it passes

The average number I came up with is much lower than yours. Shows how variable it can be even when we're just considering the 'average'

Whats the current pretax totals for the military? I understand BAH will vary depending on location but I would like to see what the theoretical yearly salary would be before taxes have been removed.

 

[Franklo]

We still have the problem of undergraduate loans, residency loans, private practice loans, and beyond to make dentistry as a profession viable in the long term.

This is the big one right there. The problem wouldn't be so big if it was just dental school that had problems, unfortunately the reality is far more worrisome. Everyone wants a college education, whether productive or not. You're not going to tell me that going to school for 4 years and getting a history degree is going to do much for you? The problem becomes when you go to a private school get a **** degree you can barely wipe your a** with and then graduate with zero soft or hard skills and thus zero chances of getting hired and paying off that debt. And thus the student debt bubble rears its ugly head. I mean realistically what are the chances of dental/medical students defaulting on their loans? Zilch. We might lead terrible lives trying to pay off that debt but one way or another it will be paid back because we have a steadyish job.

 

[Franklo]

Cold Front, you da real MVP in SDN when it comes to breaking it down to numbers and economics in general.
What are the consequences of a student loan bubble bursting?

If the student debt bubble explodes two things will happen. Private schools (of any kind) will keel over dead and those burdened with debt will be in for one hell of a ride. Those that have no debt and have advanced degrees (med, dent, etc) will probably take over the markets since they'll be the only ones that can afford the practices and those that have 400k++ of debt will work for them lol. Also corporate dentistry and probably some sort of privatization of medice will probably take over and we'll all end up like pharmacy kids lol.

 

[cmcner]

Cold Front, you da real MVP in SDN when it comes to breaking it down to numbers and economics in general.
What are the consequences of a student loan bubble bursting?

Well I know you asked Cold Front but from my view we have to examine what a bubble really is, and it is basically fake money. So basically the question is who absorbs the losses when we realize all of this spent money isn't ever going to be paid? The first casualties in this will be people who took out loans they couldn't afford and their children. These loans are not forgivable even in bankruptcy so they will persist. This scenario will first apply to the people who defaulted on those loans and stopped paying all together. Their credit will be shot, in some cases their wages will be garnished and their licenses could be revoked in professions like dentistry.

The scenario will later play out with the people who kept up with their payments but on a low income based plan in mostly the same ways when that IRS tax bubble hits on the loan forgiveness year assuming those people havent saved to prepare for the bubble hit. Retirement for most will disappear as will inheritance for their children. The IRS in theory could even jail these people for tax evasion.

The money that cannot be collected by the banks and by the IRS after all the blood is drained from the students will lead to huge projected profit losses for the loan holders leading those stocks to crash and possibly go bankrupt or get bailed out by the government. As for the IRS losses they will make our deficit worse and given the size of the debt could even effect our credit rating as a country.

Should none of this happen by 2020-2025 I believe the millennial generation of very educated very poor people will refuse to let their children apply to the expensive schools which is really starting to look like even the state schools now to prevent them from the burden of debt that has hung over their heads their entire adult life. This will force the less good colleges that cost a lot to start closing down first followed by all but the top tier named schools that cost a lot. Price will be the new ranking, when that happens the system flips on its head. The millennial who made it out without debt and made money will see how little an undergrad degree is worth now and will likely also be unwilling to pay the $500,000 for undergrad for their kids which is what it will cost by 2025 if not more. They also will not let their kids take the loans.
Colleges will quickly start to fall and the US will no longer have the institutional capacity to educate its young adults past high school and our national educational standing will plummet. Our high intellect jobs will no longer have a pool to hire from and will have to lower standards, automate with AI, or outsource. Low skill jobs will all ready be mostly automated so all these kids with just a hs level education will be left without jobs.

The country will have to pick either mass poverty or a universal income with super high taxes for the super super rich who own all the robots. If universal income is not picked there will be no more consumers left to buy goods and the whole economy will collapse.

Or maybe on the other hand things will just work themselves out on their own.

 

[distressstudent]

Whats the current pretax totals for the military? I understand BAH will vary depending on location but I would like to see what the theoretical yearly salary would be before taxes have been removed.

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/what-does-an-army-dentist-make.1146209/

around 85~90k pre-tax


My take on the next economic downturn... It won't end up the same way the housing bubble did. cmcner brings up a good point. These student loans can't be defaulted. The housing crisis was due to banks issuing unsecured loans to people that can't even afford the house; people were hedging for a higher income or earn rental income and then refinance for a better rate. Housing was going up in such a way that it'd be "stupid" (hindsight 20/20) to not get in the market ASAP and weather out a bad mortgage. When the economy flopped, so did people's ability to afford their then current mortgage and had to file for bankrupt with banks absorbing the cost. Well banks learned their lesson and even though housing costs are going up it's mainly being played by people who can afford to pay in. That's why the next crisis people are predicting isn't the housing again but student loans

What's going to happen to your student loans? It's going to stay with you. So that's why I dont think you can look at 2008 and say look it's going to be worse. Students in debt don't really ruin the economy. They still going to spend spend spend and end up being indentured servants for even longer; exactly what corporate America wants. But cmcner brings up good points and I could see it swinging that way too.

 

[Franklo]

Well I know you asked Cold Front but from my view we have to examine what a bubble really is, and it is basically fake money. So basically the question is who absorbs the losses when we realize all of this spent money isn't ever going to be paid? The first casualties in this will be people who took out loans they couldn't afford and their children. These loans are not forgivable even in bankruptcy so they will persist. This scenario will first apply to the people who defaulted on those loans and stopped paying all together. Their credit will be shot, in some cases their wages will be garnished and their licenses could be revoked in professions like dentistry.

The scenario will later play out with the people who kept up with their payments but on a low income based plan in mostly the same ways when that IRS tax bubble hits on the loan forgiveness year assuming those people havent saved to prepare for the bubble hit. Retirement for most will disappear as will inheritance for their children. The IRS in theory could even jail these people for tax evasion.

The money that cannot be collected by the banks and by the IRS after all the blood is drained from the students will lead to huge projected profit losses for the loan holders leading those stocks to crash and possibly go bankrupt or get bailed out by the government. As for the IRS losses they will make our deficit worse and given the size of the debt could even effect our credit rating as a country.

Should none of this happen by 2020-2025 I believe the millennial generation of very educated very poor people will refuse to let their children apply to the expensive schools which is really starting to look like even the state schools now to prevent them from the burden of debt that has hung over their heads their entire adult life. This will force the less good colleges that cost a lot to start closing down first followed by all but the top tier named schools that cost a lot. Price will be the new ranking, when that happens the system flips on its head. The millennial who made it out without debt and made money will see how little an undergrad degree is worth now and will likely also be unwilling to pay the $500,000 for undergrad for their kids which is what it will cost by 2025 if not more. They also will not let their kids take the loans.
Colleges will quickly start to fall and the US will no longer have the institutional capacity to educate its young adults past high school and our national educational standing will plummet. Our high intellect jobs will no longer have a pool to hire from and will have to lower standards, automate with AI, or outsource. Low skill jobs will all ready be mostly automated so all these kids with just a hs level education will be left without jobs.

The country will have to pick either mass poverty or a universal income with super high taxes for the super super rich who own all the robots. If universal income is not picked there will be no more consumers left to buy goods and the whole economy will collapse.

Or maybe on the other hand things will just work themselves out on their own.

LMAO you sir are funny.

However I think there is something we are all forgetting about. I will assume that when you say "it will just work itself out" you reference the hope that the lenders will bite the bullet in some way (either through a decrease in debt, interest rates, etc). Think about who actually owns these large quantities of debt. The answer is either banks/loan companies and of course uncle Sam. Now considering that the national debt sits close to 20 trillion USD if uncle Sam decides to bite the bullet he has to take on a massive write off which god knows how much that will be once we get there then it will add to that debt. Do you have any idea how much that will add to the interest payments. Think about our loans, 400k easily turns into close to 600k by the time we're all settled down. The government will end up using all of its revenue (taxes) just to pay the INTEREST on its loans. Now I'm not one to be pessimistic but looking at how Greece ended up getting rear ended it doesn't take much to start seeing how ugly things could end up. And then there is the banks and loan companies. If we default on our loans they go under and we already know what happens if that occurs, bail outs and the government still ends up biting the bullet.

Again like you said it could all work out we have no idea but thinking that this is going to end all nice and lovey dovey is a mistake, there will be blood you can bet on that.

 

[schmoob]

Even with the military's pay chart, there's too many variables to consider to throw out a single number

1. State Tax. Even in a state with state tax, some state won't require service members to pay their share depending on different qualifying factors
2. BAH. Varies too much. Can vary from 12k a month to like 30k a year
3. Tax liability. Congress is trying to push for 1 salary system by 2017. Which means BAH will now be part of your taxable income if it passes

The average number I came up with is much lower than yours. Shows how variable it can be even when we're just considering the 'average'

Where did you see anything that says BAH will be taxable if this 1 salary system is approved? The whole point of BAH is so someone stationed in West Virginia and PCS's to NY or San Diego can still live a relatively normal quality of life; it's an equalizing factor.
To tax it would harm those stationed in higher cost of living areas.

Does that mean BAS would get taxed too?

Not calling you out or anything, just wondering where you read this.

 

[distressstudent]

Where did you see anything that says BAH will be taxable if this 1 salary system is approved? The whole point of BAH is so someone stationed in West Virginia and PCS's to NY or San Diego can still live a relatively normal quality of life; it's an equalizing factor.
To tax it would harm those stationed in higher cost of living areas.

Does that mean BAS would get taxed too?

Not calling you out or anything, just wondering where you read this.

http://www.aetc.af.mil/News/Article...icle/1038676/fy-17-ndaa-impact-on-airmen.aspx


The change suggests that housing will no longer be an allowance but rather a part of compensation. This was in response to people resisting the change put out by congress which wanted to take away BAH entirely and just cover housing 100%

No one knows the exact details of the changes so you're right it's just speculation so far. But it's hard to imagine what else it means for BAH to be part of compensation than allowance

Edit:
Example:
https://www.navycs.com/blogs/2016/12/07/military-single-salary-pay-system

 

[PaulS]

it depends! on your location, hand speed, how many patients you seeing, what procedures you are doing. Do not focus on the money when you get out! try to find a good place with a great mentor and enhance your clinical skills! I rather work for free and have a great mentor who can teach me than get paid lots of money but work in a ****ty environment!

 

[Cold Front]

Well I know you asked Cold Front but from my view we have to examine what a bubble really is, and it is basically fake money. So basically the question is who absorbs the losses when we realize all of this spent money isn't ever going to be paid? The first casualties in this will be people who took out loans they couldn't afford and their children. These loans are not forgivable even in bankruptcy so they will persist. This scenario will first apply to the people who defaulted on those loans and stopped paying all together. Their credit will be shot, in some cases their wages will be garnished and their licenses could be revoked in professions like dentistry.

The scenario will later play out with the people who kept up with their payments but on a low income based plan in mostly the same ways when that IRS tax bubble hits on the loan forgiveness year assuming those people havent saved to prepare for the bubble hit. Retirement for most will disappear as will inheritance for their children. The IRS in theory could even jail these people for tax evasion.

The money that cannot be collected by the banks and by the IRS after all the blood is drained from the students will lead to huge projected profit losses for the loan holders leading those stocks to crash and possibly go bankrupt or get bailed out by the government. As for the IRS losses they will make our deficit worse and given the size of the debt could even effect our credit rating as a country.

Should none of this happen by 2020-2025 I believe the millennial generation of very educated very poor people will refuse to let their children apply to the expensive schools which is really starting to look like even the state schools now to prevent them from the burden of debt that has hung over their heads their entire adult life. This will force the less good colleges that cost a lot to start closing down first followed by all but the top tier named schools that cost a lot. Price will be the new ranking, when that happens the system flips on its head. The millennial who made it out without debt and made money will see how little an undergrad degree is worth now and will likely also be unwilling to pay the $500,000 for undergrad for their kids which is what it will cost by 2025 if not more. They also will not let their kids take the loans.
Colleges will quickly start to fall and the US will no longer have the institutional capacity to educate its young adults past high school and our national educational standing will plummet. Our high intellect jobs will no longer have a pool to hire from and will have to lower standards, automate with AI, or outsource. Low skill jobs will all ready be mostly automated so all these kids with just a hs level education will be left without jobs.

The country will have to pick either mass poverty or a universal income with super high taxes for the super super rich who own all the robots. If universal income is not picked there will be no more consumers left to buy goods and the whole economy will collapse.

Or maybe on the other hand things will just work themselves out on their own.

It's interesting that you mentioned the IRS, or tax payers in real terms. We should ought to think about the long term consequences of the growing IBR (income based repayment) program in the past few years. It has been used as damage control to prevent or slow down the default rates in student loans. If IBR didn't exist, the default rates would have been much higher.

Here’s the problem: at the end of the IBR repayment period (usually 20 years), the borrower’s remaining balance is forgiven. Yes, you are off the hook! When interest rates are low, as they are now, an IBR borrower pays down his/her balance more quickly, and so will receive a smaller amount of forgiveness at the end of the repayment period.

However, when interest rates go up, like they just did last 12 months (and more rate increases expected this year and beyond) more of the borrower’s IBR payment must go towards paying down the interest that accumulates every month. This means the loan’s principal diminishes more slowly. Under some circumstances, ALL of the borrower’s payment goes toward interest, meaning the principal balance actually goes up, a phenomenon known as "negative amortization".

Taxpayers may be on the hook for tens of thousands of dollars of loan forgiveness at the end of a borrower’s repayment period—or, if interest rates rise significantly, hundreds of thousands. Now this is interesting.

Imagine a dental student on IBR who graduated 5 years ago when interest rates were all time low, and in 15 years their loans are forgiven when interest rates could be higher (much higher), the IRS and tax payers on the hook for the original balance or more. This is happening, and will lead to a major unintended consequences.

This year alone, interest rates could go up a full 1%, and 2-3% more expected next 5 years alone. So our IBR friends are helping the bubble grow without knowing it. I would be very surprised if IBR still exists in 5 years.

 

[DentalAptitude]

This question is pretty simple actually. In an average city, at an average practice, you can probably guarantee $500 base pay per day minimum with a percentage of production or collection if you earn over $500 as a percent of that number. So, work with that number. If you have training in higher margin procedures you can easily exceed the $500 figure.

 

[LFA20]

Just incase it comes up, for military, it's closer to $6,500/mo after all taxes, etc.

not if you are in hscp

 

[Incis0r]

not if you are in hscp

Yes sir.

 

[cmcner]

It's interesting that you mentioned the IRS, or tax payers in real terms. We should ought to think about the long term consequences of the growing IBR (income based repayment) program in the past few years. It has been used as damage control to prevent or slow down the default rates in student loans. If IBR didn't exist, the default rates would have been much higher.

Here’s the problem: at the end of the IBR repayment period (usually 20 years), the borrower’s remaining balance is forgiven. Yes, you are off the hook! When interest rates are low, as they are now, an IBR borrower pays down his/her balance more quickly, and so will receive a smaller amount of forgiveness at the end of the repayment period.

However, when interest rates go up, like they just did last 12 months (and more rate increases expected this year and beyond) more of the borrower’s IBR payment must go towards paying down the interest that accumulates every month. This means the loan’s principal diminishes more slowly. Under some circumstances, ALL of the borrower’s payment goes toward interest, meaning the principal balance actually goes up, a phenomenon known as "negative amortization".

Taxpayers may be on the hook for tens of thousands of dollars of loan forgiveness at the end of a borrower’s repayment period—or, if interest rates rise significantly, hundreds of thousands. Now this is interesting.

Imagine a dental student on IBR who graduated 5 years ago when interest rates were all time low, and in 15 years their loans are forgiven when interest rates could be higher (much higher), the IRS and tax payers on the hook for the original balance or more. This is happening, and will lead to a major unintended consequences.

This year alone, interest rates could go up a full 1%, and 2-3% more expected next 5 years alone. So our IBR friends are helping the bubble grow without knowing it. I would be very surprised if IBR still exists in 5 years.

I mostly agree with the points made here except that IBR REPAYE and PAYE are fixed interest rate programs so payments or amount owed won't change based on interest rate changes, just income changes. Still the rates were not set according to the record low rates and many of us with Grad Plus loans are locked in at 7%+ interest rates which leads to the problems you described. When the government took over ownership of most of the student loans under Obama the government became the organization that profited from the interest rates and the income tax on the loan forgiveness, in most cases this would at least repay the principle by the end of the 20-25 year term, even if they payments were so low they never went toward the principle, however they were not trying to break even, they were trying to make a profit and budgeted according spending extra to the idea that they would profit on all of these student loan interest rates instead of the banks.

 

[schmoob]

not if you are in hscp

HSCP is a good move, especially in your area where the BAH is really up there. Are you also getting COLA?

Something to keep in mind is your date of enlistment and your date of discharge and commissioning. I'm not sure if you're aware, but you need at least 4 years and 1 day of enlisted service to get the O-3E paygrade. Anything below that, you will be commissioned as an O-3, with 3 years of service. You will not get the "E" designation, even after you pass your 4 year mark (in ODS probably).
Hopefully you enlisted as early as possible and can hold off your commissioning as long as you can, this way your DD214 can list over 4 years of service when you do swear in.
If you already knew this, disregard. Just a friendly heads up so you don't get blindsided.

 

[Incis0r]

HSCP is a good move, especially in your area where the BAH is really up there. Are you also getting COLA?

Something to keep in mind is your date of enlistment and your date of discharge and commissioning. I'm not sure if you're aware, but you need at least 4 years and 1 day of enlisted service to get the O-3E paygrade. Anything below that, you will be commissioned as an O-3, with 3 years of service. You will not get the "E" designation, even after you pass your 4 year mark (in ODS probably).
Hopefully you enlisted as early as possible and can hold off your commissioning as long as you can, this way your DD214 can list over 4 years of service when you do swear in.
If you already knew this, disregard. Just a friendly heads up so you don't get blindsided.

I have a great idea for you.

 

[Cold Front]

I mostly agree with the points made here except that IBR REPAYE and PAYE are fixed interest rate programs so payments or amount owed won't change based on interest rate changes, just income changes. Still the rates were not set according to the record low rates and many of us with Grad Plus loans are locked in at 7%+ interest rates which leads to the problems you described. When the government took over ownership of most of the student loans under Obama the government became the organization that profited from the interest rates and the income tax on the loan forgiveness, in most cases this would at least repay the principle by the end of the 20-25 year term, even if they payments were so low they never went toward the principle, however they were not trying to break even, they were trying to make a profit and budgeted according spending extra to the idea that they would profit on all of these student loan interest rates instead of the banks.

Yes and no.

Since 2013, yields on the 10-year Treasury note have interest rates on federal student loans. The undergraduate student loan interest rate is equivalent to the ten-year Treasury yield plus 2.05 percentage points; for most graduate student loans, the rate is the Treasury yield plus 3.6 percentage points. At the beginning of the 2016-2017 school year, the ten-year Treasury yield was 1.71%. Therefore, student loan interest rate for the current school year are 3.76% for undergraduates and 5.31% for most graduate students. To finance student loans upfront, the Education Department borrows money from the Treasury Department, which in turn raises money by borrowing from the public, through the sale of Treasury notes. In theory, the current system ensures that the spread between the student loan program’s borrowing costs and revenues remains roughly constant. As the government has to make higher payments on the money it borrowed to fund student loans (with recently increasing rates), student borrowers also have to pay more because of their loans’ higher interest rates. All student loans will be effected as a result, including IBR. Yes, the rates can be locked/fixed, but that doesn't mean the rates can't change as the global monitory policy changes with higher rates.

 

[LFA20]

HSCP is a good move, especially in your area where the BAH is really up there. Are you also getting COLA?

Something to keep in mind is your date of enlistment and your date of discharge and commissioning. I'm not sure if you're aware, but you need at least 4 years and 1 day of enlisted service to get the O-3E paygrade. Anything below that, you will be commissioned as an O-3, with 3 years of service. You will not get the "E" designation, even after you pass your 4 year mark (in ODS probably).
Hopefully you enlisted as early as possible and can hold off your commissioning as long as you can, this way your DD214 can list over 4 years of service when you do swear in.
If you already knew this, disregard. Just a friendly heads up so you don't get blindsided.

Oh I didn't know that. I enlisted in first week of july. Should I try to schedule ODS date after that date then?

also if I can't get commissioned before my date of enlistment then do I just become an O-3 with 4 years+ experience once that date passes instead of O3E?
thanks

 

[Cello]

Yes sir; those smart enough (like yourself) to pursue the HSCP have an excellent deal on their hands. Great decision made.

I tend to agree with you about this. However, as an alternative view, I recently spoke with a student who is in the 2nd or 3rd year (I don't remember which) of her service commitment and said that she regrets it. I was surprised when she told me that many of her classmates are making a lot more money than she is and that she would have been better off just going straight into practice.

I wouldn't say that her opinion is particularly common, but now I can say that I know of at least one person who feels that way. There was a thread floating around here a few years ago which gave a bunch of reasons not to go into the military, it was a long time ago (10 years) and a bit tongue-in-cheek, but still worth a read for the alternate perspective.

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/37-reasons-not-to-be-a-military-dentist.447909/

 

[Incis0r]

I tend to agree with you about this. However, as an alternative view, I recently spoke with a student who is in the 2nd or 3rd year (I don't remember which) of her service commitment and said that she regrets it. I was surprised when she told me that many of her classmates are making a lot more money than she is and that she would have been better off just going straight into practice.

You bring up a very important point.

 

[Incis0r]

The best anyone can do is carefully assess their options, study the routes thoroughly, and make the decision that is closest in line with their values and career goals.

 

[Panis et Circenses]

There is also other potential catalysts to the current bubble. The student debt market is now about $1.5 trillion, which was under heavy scrutiny under the out going president's administration, where the origination of federally backed student loans (the vast majority of student loans) was entirely transferred to the US government. Under Trump administration, it will shift to a more receptive approach, shifting student loans to private lenders. We all know that's going to add more fuel to the fire by increasing lending cost. Future grads could be paying higher debt with even higher cost. Investors are betting this will change to the latter. Shares of the largest private student lender by origination volume, SLM Corp., or Sallie Mae, have led the charge since the November election, rising over 50%, along with other financial indexes that anticipate pro-Trump policies.

Lol. So many "sky is falling" posts after trump has been elected. IF we see a shift to private lenders, that will be a good thing, because it wouldn't take a genius to figure out that medical/dental students pay back their loans at a very high rate. In this case, there will be no shortage of loaners, and with high competition we'll probably get much better rates than what we are currently receiving from the government.

But this is a huge if and I have no reason to believe that there will be a shift away from federal student loans.

 

[LFA20]

You bring up a very important point. Given what you just told me about your contact, it sounds like she valued income over the service to our troops. I'm not judging here, it's her life to live, but clearly, her decision is at odds with her true desires/priority. Hence the unhappiness.

I don't find it surprising though that her civilian classmates are making more money than she is; that's the nature of military pay your first few years out, and you will make more as a civilian dentist than a military dentist right out of school. But I think financially, HPSP beats non-HPSP.

Cases like that of hers are the reason why people in the military dentistry subforum constantly tell others: "Don't do it for the money."

just to add to your response
I agree that civilian dentists make more in the first 4 years compared to military but considering that BAH and BAS aren't taxable, lower base pay means lower tax bracket, and your BAH could go up as high as $2,800 (in SD for example) I don't see a big difference in salary. Also let's not forget about being DEBT free either.


HPSP definitely wins financially.

 

[Panis et Circenses]

@Cello ...another thing; I didn't want to write this here before because it might unnecessarily depress people, but I feel compelled to show that both military and civilian routes have their downsides.

One of my relatives is a dentist at a corp. in a mid-sized, underserved city. She was telling me about a phone conversation she had with a fellow colleague of hers (who graduated from school 12 yrs ago).

The colleague was SO frustrated with how civilian dentistry is going right now. Here are some things that were said, word for word.

• "Nobody respects us dentists. Office manager talks down to us. Patients feel entitled to our care."

I guess this depends on the personality of the dentist, because if an office manager tried to do talk down to me I would rip them a new ***hole.

 

[Incis0r]

I guess this depends on the personality of the dentist, because if an office manager tried to do talk down to me I would rip them a new ***hole.

"Officer Managers hate him!"

 

[Panis et Circenses]

"Officer Managers hate him!"

hahaha. inb4 someone whips out the Neil Degrasse tyson meme.

 

[Cello]

just to add to your response
I agree that civilian dentists make more in the first 4 years compared to military but considering that BAH and BAS aren't taxable, lower base pay means lower tax bracket, and your BAH could go up as high as $2,800 (in SD for example) I don't see a big difference in salary. Also let's not forget about being DEBT free either.


HPSP definitely wins financially.

Some of her other gripes included only being able to do basic restorations and having to refer everything else out. She also complained about only having one patient at a time due to limited space. Apparently they spend a lot of their time in the "office" while the patient is getting numb where she works. But hey, at least her assistant has time to place the rubber dam that way!

Anyway, what you said got me thinking. I wonder it would be wise to register one's practice as an s-corp , pay yourself a salary, and then when you pay your student loans the s-corp can use the Student Loan Genius program to match your employee contribution to your student loans with contributions to a 401k. Thus you can minimize your salary to avoid a huge tax liability, pay down your student loans, and match those payments with money towards your 401k through the s-corp. More info about W-2 salary and s-corps here.

 

[Incis0r]

Some of her other gripes included only being able to do basic restorations and having to refer everything else out. She also complained about only having one patient at a time due to limited space. Apparently they spend a lot of their time in the "office" while the patient is getting numb where she works. But hey, at least her assistant has time to apply the rubber dam that way!

Where is this?

 

[LFA20]

Some of her other gripes included only being able to do basic restorations and having to refer everything else out. She also complained about only having one patient at a time due to limited space. Apparently they spend a lot of their time in the "office" while the patient is getting numb where she works. But hey, at least her assistant has time to apply the rubber dam that way!

I was talking to an army dentist on dental town. She turned down the 2 year AEGD and is now doing endo residency instead in the army. Sorry of the lack of spacing lol

Here's what she had to say when I asked her about her experience


I am still in- I will have 8 years of service in June. I signed a three year contract last July so that I could do the 2 year AEGD that the army offers but I don't want to do it at this point because I have had enough of the army. I wrote a very long reply to another HPSP student so I will paste that..some info may be extraneous but hopefully it will give you lots to think about. I did a one year when I graduated in 2008 at Ft Carson. It was very good. You get to do lots of prostho- ( removable is limited due to age of soldiers), molar endo, thirds, tons of perio surgery including implant placement/restoration, crown lengthening, ginivectomies, apically positioned flaps, bone grafts/socket preservation, connective tissue grafting, some pedo. Some other residents or other programs did molar re-treats, apicoectomies, sinus lifts. The program is great but afterwards is a total crap shoot. After my one year I went to Egypt and worked in a one dentist clinic so I could do what I wanted with no one watching over me. However we had no lab support so I went a year without cutting a crown. I had no assistant for 3 months of that year so I had to flip my own chair, make all the appointments, do all the hygiene etc. it was ****ty and cut down on my ability to do a wide variety of procedures. After that I went to an 11 doc clinic with an ortho, pedo, endo and OS. It was overseas so we we had the ortho and pedo- In stateside clinics it is rare to have pedo and ortho on staff. I got to do lots of pedo there and two ortho cases, but most stateside units will not have ortho and pedo. Our first commander was an endodontist and he had lots of other things to do outside of patient care so I did a ton of endo in those two years. He left and we got another commander who was very "number" driven. He wanted to show an increase in patient appointments so he limited us to one hour appoinments 4/5 days a week. the fifth day was out "specialty day" where we could book whatever we wanted. It is hard to do a crown prep, molar endo, set of thirds or perio surgery in one hour (45 minutes really with anesthesia and flipping chair) so that turned into operative appointments mostly, crown delivery, simple single tooth extraction etc. Also if the specialist were not booked a certain number of weeks, 63As were not allowed to do specialty procedures. It was very limiting. No matter how much we complained he wouldn't budge. After that my time was up in the army but I signed to continue living overseas in Korea. We were two hours away from nearest specialist so we keep a lot of things in house. My OIC is very hands off and doesn't meddle in our schedue so long as we are filling time adequately. Command used to let us go to work with the specialists to shadow and do cases but his replacement commander is making us use leave or comp days for it. If you do the one year program, you will be credentialed to do more procedues in clinic than if you do not do the program. Every new duty location you have to have previous supervisors rate your skills to determine what procedures you can do unsupervised, with supervision and not at all. For example, only periodontists, oral surgeons and 63B can place implants, even if you placed them in the one year program. Since I did the one year I got credentialed for molar endo and removal of thirds etc, but there were dentists in my clinic who did not do the one year and she was not credentialed to do molar endo unsupervised. She was pissed about it. Right now there is an optional program called ACP which is for the one year AEGD graduates. It requires clinic cases after completion of the program including 10 perio surgeries, 10 molar endos, 10 prosth cases, 100 extractions 20 of them being surgical 50 hours of CE and some miltary related tasks like setting up field equipment. If you finish the program (which I did) you can get a retention bonus after payback is complete. 18 k a year for 2 year contract, 27k a year for a 3 year contract and 35 k a year for a 4 year contract. I signed for a three year contract last July to do the 2 years masters but as I said I want to drop the position. As far as patient selection. I block half the day for myself to schedule patients that I want to do what I want and the front desk sticks patients in my schedule the rest of the day. it is very frustrating bc dentists don't agree on things so I may get a patient with things marked for treatment that I would just monitor or things that we missed. Other days I do annual exams all day- upwards of 30 soldiers. Those days suck but if you see fun stuff that you want to do you can schedule it your self. Sick call can be crazy but you also get goodies there- lots of endos and thirds etc. There have been times that we were short on hygenists for a while so docs had to do prophies one day a week. If I did not have my schedule blocked, the front desk could fill me 60 days out with fillings easily. I hate seeing new patients bc I spend the first appointment re-doing exam maybe updating x-rays and modifying tx plan. Once I get them in again then I can start to get to work the way I want to. So I gave a long answer and lots of different things to think about- short answer is that it totally depends on your command, OIC and duty location. Amalgam line is common, but I am lucky to have missed it for the most part. 63B are expected to be doing a lot of surgery, prosth, thirds and molar endo. If you go the Bravo route you will most likely have more control over your schedule and freedom in practice. At least from what I have seen. But my current OIC finished the bravo program and was made OIC of a hectic clinic and spends most of his time doing busy work and going to meetings. That is my nightmare after spending two years doing the program and why I am going to rescind my spot.

Major pros- debt free, got to live in Egypt, Italy and korea and see 38 countries over 6 years. Soldiers are easy patients to work on. No hassle of insurance or malpractice leave work at home. great benefits get to do fun things like airborne school, go to the range etc.

Cons- dont get to pick where you live. Moving 5 times in 7 years has been horrible for my personal life- i just want to settle down at this point in my life. No control over practice supplies hiring staff etc. You take the CE that they offer. Scope of practice is limited. I have never regretted joining,but at this point I don't want to stay.
I don't want to work five days a week so i'd prefer to get out, have more time to myself and live modestly working fewer hours.
Please feel free to ask anything else
Alexa

 

[Incis0r]

@AVB2104 Thank you for sharing that. That's very nice of you!!

 

[Cello]

Is she Army?

Embarrassingly, I don't remember. It was either Navy or Army. As evidenced by my posts, she was a bit of a complainer, so we didn't really connect.

I was talking to an army dentist on dental town. She turned down the 2 year AEGD and is now doing endo residency instead in the army. Sorry of the lack of spacing lol

Here's what she had to say when I asked her about her experience


I am still in- I will have 8 years of service in June. I signed a three year contract last July so that I could do the 2 year AEGD that the army offers but I don't want to do it at this point because I have had enough of the army. I wrote a very long reply to another HPSP student so I will paste that..some info may be extraneous but hopefully it will give you lots to think about. I did a one year when I graduated in 2008 at Ft Carson. It was very good. You get to do lots of prostho- ( removable is limited due to age of soldiers), molar endo, thirds, tons of perio surgery including implant placement/restoration, crown lengthening, ginivectomies, apically positioned flaps, bone grafts/socket preservation, connective tissue grafting, some pedo. Some other residents or other programs did molar re-treats, apicoectomies, sinus lifts. The program is great but afterwards is a total crap shoot. After my one year I went to Egypt and worked in a one dentist clinic so I could do what I wanted with no one watching over me. However we had no lab support so I went a year without cutting a crown. I had no assistant for 3 months of that year so I had to flip my own chair, make all the appointments, do all the hygiene etc. it was ****ty and cut down on my ability to do a wide variety of procedures. After that I went to an 11 doc clinic with an ortho, pedo, endo and OS. It was overseas so we we had the ortho and pedo- In stateside clinics it is rare to have pedo and ortho on staff. I got to do lots of pedo there and two ortho cases, but most stateside units will not have ortho and pedo. Our first commander was an endodontist and he had lots of other things to do outside of patient care so I did a ton of endo in those two years. He left and we got another commander who was very "number" driven. He wanted to show an increase in patient appointments so he limited us to one hour appoinments 4/5 days a week. the fifth day was out "specialty day" where we could book whatever we wanted. It is hard to do a crown prep, molar endo, set of thirds or perio surgery in one hour (45 minutes really with anesthesia and flipping chair) so that turned into operative appointments mostly, crown delivery, simple single tooth extraction etc. Also if the specialist were not booked a certain number of weeks, 63As were not allowed to do specialty procedures. It was very limiting. No matter how much we complained he wouldn't budge. After that my time was up in the army but I signed to continue living overseas in Korea. We were two hours away from nearest specialist so we keep a lot of things in house. My OIC is very hands off and doesn't meddle in our schedue so long as we are filling time adequately. Command used to let us go to work with the specialists to shadow and do cases but his replacement commander is making us use leave or comp days for it. If you do the one year program, you will be credentialed to do more procedues in clinic than if you do not do the program. Every new duty location you have to have previous supervisors rate your skills to determine what procedures you can do unsupervised, with supervision and not at all. For example, only periodontists, oral surgeons and 63B can place implants, even if you placed them in the one year program. Since I did the one year I got credentialed for molar endo and removal of thirds etc, but there were dentists in my clinic who did not do the one year and she was not credentialed to do molar endo unsupervised. She was pissed about it. Right now there is an optional program called ACP which is for the one year AEGD graduates. It requires clinic cases after completion of the program including 10 perio surgeries, 10 molar endos, 10 prosth cases, 100 extractions 20 of them being surgical 50 hours of CE and some miltary related tasks like setting up field equipment. If you finish the program (which I did) you can get a retention bonus after payback is complete. 18 k a year for 2 year contract, 27k a year for a 3 year contract and 35 k a year for a 4 year contract. I signed for a three year contract last July to do the 2 years masters but as I said I want to drop the position. As far as patient selection. I block half the day for myself to schedule patients that I want to do what I want and the front desk sticks patients in my schedule the rest of the day. it is very frustrating bc dentists don't agree on things so I may get a patient with things marked for treatment that I would just monitor or things that we missed. Other days I do annual exams all day- upwards of 30 soldiers. Those days suck but if you see fun stuff that you want to do you can schedule it your self. Sick call can be crazy but you also get goodies there- lots of endos and thirds etc. There have been times that we were short on hygenists for a while so docs had to do prophies one day a week. If I did not have my schedule blocked, the front desk could fill me 60 days out with fillings easily. I hate seeing new patients bc I spend the first appointment re-doing exam maybe updating x-rays and modifying tx plan. Once I get them in again then I can start to get to work the way I want to. So I gave a long answer and lots of different things to think about- short answer is that it totally depends on your command, OIC and duty location. Amalgam line is common, but I am lucky to have missed it for the most part. 63B are expected to be doing a lot of surgery, prosth, thirds and molar endo. If you go the Bravo route you will most likely have more control over your schedule and freedom in practice. At least from what I have seen. But my current OIC finished the bravo program and was made OIC of a hectic clinic and spends most of his time doing busy work and going to meetings. That is my nightmare after spending two years doing the program and why I am going to rescind my spot.

Major pros- debt free, got to live in Egypt, Italy and korea and see 38 countries over 6 years. Soldiers are easy patients to work on. No hassle of insurance or malpractice leave work at home. great benefits get to do fun things like airborne school, go to the range etc.

Cons- dont get to pick where you live. Moving 5 times in 7 years has been horrible for my personal life- i just want to settle down at this point in my life. No control over practice supplies hiring staff etc. You take the CE that they offer. Scope of practice is limited. I have never regretted joining,but at this point I don't want to stay.
I don't want to work five days a week so i'd prefer to get out, have more time to myself and live modestly working fewer hours.
Please feel free to ask anything else
Alexa

Excellent post! You should consider posting that as a thread in the military forums!

 

[DrJeff]

This question is pretty simple actually. In an average city, at an average practice, you can probably guarantee $500 base pay per day minimum with a percentage of production or collection if you earn over $500 as a percent of that number. So, work with that number. If you have training in higher margin procedures you can easily exceed the $500 figure.

One key problem with that idea.... It's not just having the training in higher margin procedures, you also need to be in a practice with an ample number of patients who have interest in having those higher margin procedures performed by you!! It's a great thing to have the clinical skills to do a certain procedure.... It's a WAY better thing to have the skills and a ample number of patients willing to pay you for those same procedures!

And that doesn't even get into the concept that for some new grad situations going into an existing practice, some owners will essentially (and IMHO wrongfully) "cherry pick" off some patients who may need and/or are willing to pay for some of the higher margin procedures that the new associate saw first and treatment planned said procedures....

I think Coldfront's original reply to this thread was spot on and very realistic across a vast amount of the country today. The numbers can work, the key component, and this is a BIG issue for some, is that the "dentist lifestyle" that they're expecting from day 1 after graduation, realistically can happen, but it is far more likely to happen SLOWLY over time after say year 3 or year 5 or year 10.....

 

[DentalAptitude]

One key problem with that idea.... It's not just having the training in higher margin procedures, you also need to be in a practice with an ample number of patients who have interest in having those higher margin procedures performed by you!! It's a great thing to have the clinical skills to do a certain procedure.... It's a WAY better thing to have the skills and a ample number of patients willing to pay you for those same procedures!

And that doesn't even get into the concept that for some new grad situations going into an existing practice, some owners will essentially (and IMHO wrongfully) "cherry pick" off some patients who may need and/or are willing to pay for some of the higher margin procedures that the new associate saw first and treatment planned said procedures....

I think Coldfront's original reply to this thread was spot on and very realistic across a vast amount of the country today. The numbers can work, the key component, and this is a BIG issue for some, is that the "dentist lifestyle" that they're expecting from day 1 after graduation, realistically can happen, but it is far more likely to happen SLOWLY over time after say year 3 or year 5 or year 10.....

Definitely a common problem! I was just trying to give the OP an idea of what can be reasonably negotiated, but the commission is definitely subject to many factors as you mentioned. I personally feel I wouldn't be, but associates may feel unmotivated and may just skate by with a salary that has no incentives. After all, why go the extra mile by taking productive CE, working on case acceptance and tx planning, and generally be productive if at the end of the day it doesn't result in pay-off for you? (not my philosophy, just one that I have seen commonly).

 

[dentisthooah]

I was talking to an army dentist on dental town. She turned down the 2 year AEGD and is now doing endo residency instead in the army. Sorry of the lack of spacing lol

Here's what she had to say when I asked her about her experience


I am still in- I will have 8 years of service in June. I signed a three year contract last July so that I could do the 2 year AEGD that the army offers but I don't want to do it at this point because I have had enough of the army. I wrote a very long reply to another HPSP student so I will paste that..some info may be extraneous but hopefully it will give you lots to think about. I did a one year when I graduated in 2008 at Ft Carson. It was very good. You get to do lots of prostho- ( removable is limited due to age of soldiers), molar endo, thirds, tons of perio surgery including implant placement/restoration, crown lengthening, ginivectomies, apically positioned flaps, bone grafts/socket preservation, connective tissue grafting, some pedo. Some other residents or other programs did molar re-treats, apicoectomies, sinus lifts. The program is great but afterwards is a total crap shoot. After my one year I went to Egypt and worked in a one dentist clinic so I could do what I wanted with no one watching over me. However we had no lab support so I went a year without cutting a crown. I had no assistant for 3 months of that year so I had to flip my own chair, make all the appointments, do all the hygiene etc. it was ****ty and cut down on my ability to do a wide variety of procedures. After that I went to an 11 doc clinic with an ortho, pedo, endo and OS. It was overseas so we we had the ortho and pedo- In stateside clinics it is rare to have pedo and ortho on staff. I got to do lots of pedo there and two ortho cases, but most stateside units will not have ortho and pedo. Our first commander was an endodontist and he had lots of other things to do outside of patient care so I did a ton of endo in those two years. He left and we got another commander who was very "number" driven. He wanted to show an increase in patient appointments so he limited us to one hour appoinments 4/5 days a week. the fifth day was out "specialty day" where we could book whatever we wanted. It is hard to do a crown prep, molar endo, set of thirds or perio surgery in one hour (45 minutes really with anesthesia and flipping chair) so that turned into operative appointments mostly, crown delivery, simple single tooth extraction etc. Also if the specialist were not booked a certain number of weeks, 63As were not allowed to do specialty procedures. It was very limiting. No matter how much we complained he wouldn't budge. After that my time was up in the army but I signed to continue living overseas in Korea. We were two hours away from nearest specialist so we keep a lot of things in house. My OIC is very hands off and doesn't meddle in our schedue so long as we are filling time adequately. Command used to let us go to work with the specialists to shadow and do cases but his replacement commander is making us use leave or comp days for it. If you do the one year program, you will be credentialed to do more procedues in clinic than if you do not do the program. Every new duty location you have to have previous supervisors rate your skills to determine what procedures you can do unsupervised, with supervision and not at all. For example, only periodontists, oral surgeons and 63B can place implants, even if you placed them in the one year program. Since I did the one year I got credentialed for molar endo and removal of thirds etc, but there were dentists in my clinic who did not do the one year and she was not credentialed to do molar endo unsupervised. She was pissed about it. Right now there is an optional program called ACP which is for the one year AEGD graduates. It requires clinic cases after completion of the program including 10 perio surgeries, 10 molar endos, 10 prosth cases, 100 extractions 20 of them being surgical 50 hours of CE and some miltary related tasks like setting up field equipment. If you finish the program (which I did) you can get a retention bonus after payback is complete. 18 k a year for 2 year contract, 27k a year for a 3 year contract and 35 k a year for a 4 year contract. I signed for a three year contract last July to do the 2 years masters but as I said I want to drop the position. As far as patient selection. I block half the day for myself to schedule patients that I want to do what I want and the front desk sticks patients in my schedule the rest of the day. it is very frustrating bc dentists don't agree on things so I may get a patient with things marked for treatment that I would just monitor or things that we missed. Other days I do annual exams all day- upwards of 30 soldiers. Those days suck but if you see fun stuff that you want to do you can schedule it your self. Sick call can be crazy but you also get goodies there- lots of endos and thirds etc. There have been times that we were short on hygenists for a while so docs had to do prophies one day a week. If I did not have my schedule blocked, the front desk could fill me 60 days out with fillings easily. I hate seeing new patients bc I spend the first appointment re-doing exam maybe updating x-rays and modifying tx plan. Once I get them in again then I can start to get to work the way I want to. So I gave a long answer and lots of different things to think about- short answer is that it totally depends on your command, OIC and duty location. Amalgam line is common, but I am lucky to have missed it for the most part. 63B are expected to be doing a lot of surgery, prosth, thirds and molar endo. If you go the Bravo route you will most likely have more control over your schedule and freedom in practice. At least from what I have seen. But my current OIC finished the bravo program and was made OIC of a hectic clinic and spends most of his time doing busy work and going to meetings. That is my nightmare after spending two years doing the program and why I am going to rescind my spot.

Major pros- debt free, got to live in Egypt, Italy and korea and see 38 countries over 6 years. Soldiers are easy patients to work on. No hassle of insurance or malpractice leave work at home. great benefits get to do fun things like airborne school, go to the range etc.

Cons- dont get to pick where you live. Moving 5 times in 7 years has been horrible for my personal life- i just want to settle down at this point in my life. No control over practice supplies hiring staff etc. You take the CE that they offer. Scope of practice is limited. I have never regretted joining,but at this point I don't want to stay.
I don't want to work five days a week so i'd prefer to get out, have more time to myself and live modestly working fewer hours.
Please feel free to ask anything else
Alexa

Not to derail this into a military discussion but....

I'm in my third year of a 4yr Army commitment and I agree with everything in the previous post. In my experience and in talking with people I met at BOLC when we came in, being an Army general dentist isn't a great long term route if you want to do comprehensive clinical dentistry. Here are the routes I've seen:

No residency(Me): you're not credentialed for much. So it's lots of op, pulps, some ext. Half day a week for "specialty" care. Try managing a bunch of prosth with 1/2 day a week. Did it for my first year and it was a nightmare

1yr AEGD: Get fantastic experience for a year then....see above

2yr AEGD: Good experience in residency, practice for a little while after residency, then it's off to command/admin. I have yet to meet a 63B that stayed in and does clinical dentistry in any significant amount. It's scary. I'm sure plenty of life-ers would disagree, but this is what my friends and I have encountered

IMO if you stay in it's to do an actual specialty, and/or you truly enjoy the Army side of things like the admin/field/command stuff.

All that being said, I would still do it again. And most that I know who did HPSP would agree. I think I've gotten some solid life experience out of this. Stayed in good shape. Still a better dentist then I was fresh out of school. And of course no debt. Plug in the monthly cost to pay off 320K of student loans in 4yrs. That's like an extra 7K per month of post-tax income just going towards loans. The "don't do it for the money" arguement is always a head-scratcher for me. On days when your sitting in a huge conference room listening to a 20 yr old enlisted soldier lecture you for an hour about cold weather safety(in NC), followed by hours of equally stupid 'training'...we just turn to each other and say "at least we don't have debt"

 

[schmoob]

I tend to agree with you about this. However, as an alternative view, I recently spoke with a student who is in the 2nd or 3rd year (I don't remember which) of her service commitment and said that she regrets it. I was surprised when she told me that many of her classmates are making a lot more money than she is and that she would have been better off just going straight into practice.

I wouldn't say that her opinion is particularly common, but now I can say that I know of at least one person who feels that way. There was a thread floating around here a few years ago which gave a bunch of reasons not to go into the military, it was a long time ago (10 years) and a bit tongue-in-cheek, but still worth a read for the alternate perspective.

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/37-reasons-not-to-be-a-military-dentist.447909/

Her classmates also have a huge load of debt that she doesn't, plus she has a lower tax liability. I think there are a number of ways to look at this.

Some of her other gripes included only being able to do basic restorations and having to refer everything else out. She also complained about only having one patient at a time due to limited space. Apparently they spend a lot of their time in the "office" while the patient is getting numb where she works. But hey, at least her assistant has time to place the rubber dam that way!

Anyway, what you said got me thinking. I wonder it would be wise to register one's practice as an s-corp , pay yourself a salary, and then when you pay your student loans the s-corp can use the Student Loan Genius program to match your employee contribution to your student loans with contributions to a 401k. Thus you can minimize your salary to avoid a huge tax liability, pay down your student loans, and match those payments with money towards your 401k through the s-corp. More info about W-2 salary and s-corps here.

This sort of knowledge and creativity is the reason MWU loans won't scare you and you will do very well financially. Good for you, man.

 

[schmoob]

Oh I didn't know that. I enlisted in first week of july. Should I try to schedule ODS date after that date then?

also if I can't get commissioned before my date of enlistment then do I just become an O-3 with 4 years+ experience once that date passes instead of O3E?
thanks

I don't know the exact rules for commissioning as far as HSCP, such as whether you do it right after graduation or not. But if you want you can push it as far back as possible. But then comes the possibility of getting a specialty out of school, because those start July 1st and you will already have needed to complete ODS for that and on station. If I had the choice, specialty would take priority.

Yes. You would be an O3 > 4YOS. You wouldn't get the E. But then again, the E doesn't start to make a pay difference until you hit your 14 year mark, so financially I guess it doesn't make a difference for you because you'll be LCDR by then.

 

[distressstudent]

Some of her other gripes included only being able to do basic restorations and having to refer everything else out. She also complained about only having one patient at a time due to limited space. Apparently they spend a lot of their time in the "office" while the patient is getting numb where she works. But hey, at least her assistant has time to place the rubber dam that way!

Anyway, what you said got me thinking. I wonder it would be wise to register one's practice as an s-corp , pay yourself a salary, and then when you pay your student loans the s-corp can use the Student Loan Genius program to match your employee contribution to your student loans with contributions to a 401k. Thus you can minimize your salary to avoid a huge tax liability, pay down your student loans, and match those payments with money towards your 401k through the s-corp. More info about W-2 salary and s-corps here.

So the student loan genius program would have the matching contribution go towards student loans instead of an investment account?

That might actually sound terrible depending on what was your loan repayment plan.

The alternative would be:
Register as S-corp
pay yourself a salary
Make IBR payment
Put money towards traditional IRA
Get loans forgiven; use IRA money for tax bomb

Or if you do traditional 10 yr/ 25 yr plan.. It's still not that great because you will likely refinance at a lower rate. I would rather have my matching contribution get better RoI in the market than going towards student loans. I imagine this "pre-tax" contribution is fighting for your annual 401k contribution so that's why I don't think it's a real game changer