Want to do something with peds and surgery, but need thoughts on hours/salary/lifestyle etc.

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sbspftw

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Hello.
I'm interested in doing peds for sure, and something with surgery. As a woman, interested in raising a family, I am torn between following my dreams to the fullest and having an actual life.

I've been looking at pediatric surgery for the past month, and although I know people are fulfilled, 9-10 years of 80 hours work weeks is holding me back from going 100% in.
I did see some other thread that was discussing ENT or Plastics with kids? could someone explain in detail what the process (med school through residency) looks like? I would be interested in ped orthopedic surgery, and cardiosurgery, and was hoping someone could comment on the hours in residency and afterwards. (Also particulalry looking at orthopedic surgery for kids because I'm interested in working as a surgeon for doctors without borders, and it seems that they need ortho surg).

Thank you!

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Hello.
I'm interested in doing peds for sure, and something with surgery. As a woman, interested in raising a family, I am torn between following my dreams to the fullest and having an actual life.

I've been looking at pediatric surgery for the past month, and although I know people are fulfilled, 9-10 years of 80 hours work weeks is holding me back from going 100% in.
I did see some other thread that was discussing ENT or Plastics with kids? could someone explain in detail what the process (med school through residency) looks like? I would be interested in ped orthopedic surgery, and cardiosurgery, and was hoping someone could comment on the hours in residency and afterwards. (Also particulalry looking at orthopedic surgery for kids because I'm interested in working as a surgeon for doctors without borders, and it seems that they need ortho surg).

Thank you!
1) It's a long road, that's for sure, and in my opinion general surgery is one of the toughest residencies there is. Not only in terms of hours, but in other ways such as emotionally too. I really respect the surgeons who make it!

Med school = 4 years
General surgery residency = 5 years
Pediatric fellowship = 2 years
Total = 11 years (minimum)

I don't know how competitive the peds fellowship is, but all this assumes you don't need to take an extra year or more for research in between residency and fellowship in order to get into fellowship, which you might have to do if peds fellowship is really competitive.

2) If you like kids and procedures, but want less years training, you could do anesthesia (4 years) + peds fellowship (1 year) = 5 years post med school or 9 years including med school.
 
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Peds fellowships are often the MOST competitive fellowships in ANY surgical specialty; this is especially true for general surgery.

If you wanted a peds fellowship after gen surg you would most definitely need 2 years of research in there as well. Meaning, your timeline would be:

4 years medical school
7 years general surgery (including 2 yrs research)
2 years Peds fellowship

So actually 13 years of post-college education and training.

Gunning for a peds fellowship is also not easy, so expect to often be working more than 80 hours/week for those 7 years of residency bc research responsibilities and extra peds cases often get done during your "spare time."

Why is pediatric surgery so competitive? Because of the limited number of spots, and because when someone feels the calling to treat children surgically they create a stellar CV with lots of research and extra cases; those applicants go above and beyond.

Also pediatric surgeons are one of the last specialists who really do it all. They are not going to be stuck doing only appys, gallbladders: there are nephrectomies, pyloromyotomies, TE fistulas (to name a few procedures).

Peds surgeons get to do it all, and their patients often recover very well.


Source: the few pediatric surgeons I've worked with in med school and the 11 gen surg programs I interviewed with.
 
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Peds fellowships are often the MOST competitive fellowships in ANY surgical specialty; this is especially true for general surgery.

If you wanted a peds fellowship after gen surg you would most definitely need 2 years of research in there as well. Meaning, your timeline would be:

4 years medical school
7 years general surgery (including 2 yrs research)
2 years Peds fellowship

So actually 13 years of post-college education and training.

Gunning for a peds fellowship is also not easy, so expect to often be working more than 80 hours/week for those 7 years of residency bc research responsibilities and extra peds cases often get done during your "spare time."

Why is pediatric surgery so competitive? Because of the limited number of spots, and because when someone feels the calling to treat children surgically they create a stellar CV with lots of research and extra cases; those applicants go above and beyond.

Also pediatric surgeons are one of the last specialists who really do it all. They are not going to be stuck doing only appys, gallbladders: there are nephrectomies, pyloromyotomies, TE fistulas (to name a few procedures).

Peds surgeons get to do it all, and their patients often recover very well.


Source: the few pediatric surgeons I've worked with in med school and the 11 gen surg programs I interviewed with.

In no way a pediatric surgeon myself, but I agree with everything here based on my friends in pediatric surgery.
 
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There will be no easy way to pediatric surgery....just get that thought out of your mind. A general pediatric surgeon fellowship is extremely competitive, and most applicants do 2 years of research. I know some of the ortho, uro, and ENT peds fellowships are a little easier, but don't delude yourself into thinking these surgical subspecialty residency and fellowships will be a cake walk.
 
What you are looking for is essentially the holy grail of medicine: great lifestyle, good pay, flexible schedule, interesting and rewarding work, etc. Accept now that anything meeting these criteria will be very competitive and require exceptionally dedicated work on your part to achieve. Yes, this will mean a strong performance in medical school followed by strong work in residency.

All of the residencies and fellowships for any of these things will require long hours. 80 is a bare minimum, especially when you're a more junior resident and depending on the program and the service, could easily apply to when you're more senior. As mentioned above, all the research and outside projects must be done on your own time beyond the 80-100 hours you're working.

I'll put in a plug for ENT as a great way to work with kids. Most non-fellowship trained community ENTs devote a large portion of their practice to treating children -- ear tubes and tonsils are two of the most frequently performed surgical procedures in the US. Residency is usually 5 years and all programs have you rotate on pediatric services, with some having more than others.

With only a few exceptions, the full surgical breadth of adult ENT procedures are also performed on children, though straying too far beyond the bread and butter means you would have to do them at a children's hospital and would therefore probably need additional fellowship training to be credentialed. With 2 exceptions, Peds ENT fellowships are all 1 year in length and most not nearly as competitive as their Peds General Surgery counterparts.

Opportunity for international mission work is virtually unlimited. There is a huge need in the developing world limited only perhaps by the infrastructure necessary to do the cases.

From med school to completion of training, budget about 10 years start to finish for any surgical field. ENT fellowships overall are not that competitive compared to other fields, but ENT itself definitely is and is currently one of the more difficult specialties to match. Successful candidates tend to be near the top of their class with nearly flawless grades and board scores along with significant research and meaningful EC work during medical school. Hours wise, this typically means studying longer and harder than most people. For some, they end up electing to take a year off between 3rd and 4th year to do research and this seems to be getting more and more common.

Residency is 5 years like most surgical fields. A handful of programs have 7 year research tracks that include 2 NIH-funded years of research, but the overwhelming majority of them are 5 years. Hours will vary depending on the program and the service. In general, count on them being pretty brutal though not nearly as soul-sucking as some other surgical fields. 60 hour weeks would be a really light week with no call (6am-6pm M-F); add in one call night, a weekend, and some longer days and it is VERY easy to hit or exceed 80 hours. In reality, the number of hours isn't as big an issue as the unpredictability of them and this is something that sets the surgical fields apart. If a surgical emergency rolls in 15 minutes before you're "off," you may not be going anywhere for awhile.

Hours in practice can vary widely depending on how you set up your practice. If you're doing bread and butter peds cases for affluent healthy children in an outpatient center, and you have good midlevel support and a large group practice in the call pool, you may have a pretty sweet lifestyle. The sicker and more complicated your patients get, the more hours you work and you're more likely to get called in for emergencies. Judging by the number of transfers we get because the hospital didn't have an ENT on call (in communities where I can name 2-3 local ENTs), some people must be living the 'Early Nights and Tennis' motto. But that definitely won't be you as a resident!

So in summary:
~10 years school and training
Dedicated hard work start to finish
Long hours in training
Possible option for more friendly lifestyle in practice if you're flexible on money, location, scope of practice, etc.
 
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Hello.
I'm interested in doing peds for sure, and something with surgery. As a woman, interested in raising a family, I am torn between following my dreams to the fullest and having an actual life.

I've been looking at pediatric surgery for the past month, and although I know people are fulfilled, 9-10 years of 80 hours work weeks is holding me back from going 100% in.
I did see some other thread that was discussing ENT or Plastics with kids? could someone explain in detail what the process (med school through residency) looks like? I would be interested in ped orthopedic surgery, and cardiosurgery, and was hoping someone could comment on the hours in residency and afterwards. (Also particulalry looking at orthopedic surgery for kids because I'm interested in working as a surgeon for doctors without borders, and it seems that they need ortho surg).

Thank you!
Just to let you know, Doctors without Borders take a lot of non-surgical specialties too. For example, you could be a family physician or general pediatrician and work for Doctors without Borders. And FM and gen peds are 3 years each, much less time commitment than the surgical subspecialties. Of course, the pay will be significantly less than any surgical specialty, but I assume if you want to do Doctors without Borders you're not in it for the money (and/or you're being overly idealistic as a pre-med).
 
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Just wondering( naive Pre-Med), why is 2 additional years of research needed?

Is this to provide clinicians with a greater base of knowledge that will be helpful when treating their patient population, or is there another reason?

Thanks!
 
I'll put in a plug for ENT as a great way to work with kids. Most non-fellowship trained community ENTs devote a large portion of their practice to treating children -- ear tubes and tonsils are two of the most frequently performed surgical procedures in the US. Residency is usually 5 years and all programs have you rotate on pediatric services, with some having more than others.

Thank you all for the thoughtful responses.
My dream is to do something with kids and something with surgery, I know surgical specialties involve a lot of work, and I know it's not going to be a cake-walk.
I have actually been recommended ENT by more than one person.
I am leaning more towards doing pediatric fellowship anyways just because I do want to work with kids.
Could someone comment on the lifestyle differences between pediatric orthopedic surgeon and pediatric ENT surgeon?
 
Just wondering( naive Pre-Med), why is 2 additional years of research needed?

Is this to provide clinicians with a greater base of knowledge that will be helpful when treating their patient population, or is there another reason?

Thanks!

I think it's a mixture of 'are you really interested in this field', 'do you have what it takes to keep perfecting your skills and gain new knowledge', and mostly like 90% of it is 'there are only 15 spots and you need to be the best of the best of the best'.
 
Just go into peds. 3 year residency and if you find you really want more you can specialize.
Peds surgery is one hellava road. No offence but talking about MSF and charity work is a good spur to get into medicine but your future self will probably be more interested in paying back the debt, spending time with spouse, family etc.
 
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Just wondering( naive Pre-Med), why is 2 additional years of research needed?

Is this to provide clinicians with a greater base of knowledge that will be helpful when treating their patient population, or is there another reason?

Thanks!

In a perfect world one would hope that it would provide a surgeon with more knowledge, but due to limited number of spots relative to applicants, research could also be viewed as just another checkbox: a baseline requirement.

If a peds fellowship applicant WITHOUT research is in a room of 20 people competing for 3 spots, and everyone else in the room has research, the applicant without something published would be at an extreme disadvantage. Sometimes it's just a numbers game.
 
Thank you all for the thoughtful responses.
My dream is to do something with kids and something with surgery, I know surgical specialties involve a lot of work, and I know it's not going to be a cake-walk.
I have actually been recommended ENT by more than one person.
I am leaning more towards doing pediatric fellowship anyways just because I do want to work with kids.
Could someone comment on the lifestyle differences between pediatric orthopedic surgeon and pediatric ENT surgeon?
Lifestyle as an attending is going to differ depending on factors like whether you're working academic, private practice, size of practice like number of partners, hospital employed or partnership track for example, region you want to live, payer mix of your practice/patients, etc. As a new attending in PP in a major metro area you may have to work very hard to build your practice including referral base for the first year or even several years. Your partners are going to expect you to pull your weight or else they wouldn't have hired you. You can probably expect lots of hours and taking lots of call including some late nights and weekends. I know of PP ENT and ortho attendings who easily put in 60+ hours per week. That's after years of grueling residency +/- fellowship. Of course I know of some who have much better lifestyles too but I assume they had to work at least for a couple of years to build their practices to get their better lifestyle.

But let's not get ahead of ourselves. ENT and ortho are very competitive, so you have to be working very hard from day 1 as a med student to get there. And it might not be fair, but your USMLE scores (among other variables) will likely determine whether or not you're even competitive enough for ENT or ortho. So I'd suggest get into med school first, then see what you get in Step 1 and/or Step 2CK. A lot of people who had their hearts set on a particular specialty unfortunately score lower than they expected on Step 1 or 2 and so have to have more realistic expectations in choosing a specialty. Step 1 and/or 2CK strongly determine specialty choice, even if some people don't want to admit it. Also do a rotation (not just shadow) in med school so you see whether or not you even like ENT or ortho. That will give you a much better idea of whether you even will want to do ENT or ortho. Keep in mind in ENT and ortho you still have to do lots of adults before you do kids, which if you only want kids might be challenging to get through for you. Right now as a premed you're naturally curious, which is fine, but I'm just saying be patient and you'll see what it's like when you get into med school. A lot of what you're wondering about will evaporate once you see what med school is all about.
 
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You are jumping like 5 steps ahead here. While it's good to have some idea of what you want prior to starting, the vast majority of people change their minds once they actually start working in those fields. Generally, people who like peds patients stick with that, but in order to get to peds from any other specialty besides peds, you have to go through a full residency taking care of mostly adults.

ENT and Ortho are very different specialties. Yes, they both involve surgery, but they focus on different parts of the body and have different skill sets. The bread and butter cases in each are very different.

Getting some research early in med school to help you be competitive for residency is worthwhile, but you shouldn't hang your hat on a specific specialty until 1) you get into medical school, 2) you get your Step 1 score back to determine if you're even competitive for that field, and 3) you actually spend some time in the field. What you see in one day of shadowing doesn't compare to seeing a bunch of patients quickly in clinic or actually scrubbing in to procedures.
 
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If you go peds you will have lifestyle
If you go surgery you will NOT have lifestyle.


It is near impossible to match peds surgery, you have to be the smartest of the general surgeons. Of course, it might not be as competitive as say ENT/Ortho/Neuro/Plastics/Derm, but having to boss all the general surgeons is challenging.

Not only that. Tehre will be significant insecurity in residency as you continue to slog. 5+2 because you most definitely need the two research years...

I frankly think if you want any semblence of lifestyle, you just simply cannot choose peds surg. that is a route that no matter what anyone tells you ensures that you will not be spending time with your family in any meaningful manner for the next 11 years.

my peds surg fellow keeps telling me how hes going to become divorced, and everyone used to worry for him and hope he manages to go home. which he rarealy is able to.
 
Get into medical school first then worry about your specialty later. Novel advice!
 
Thank you all for the thoughtful responses.
My dream is to do something with kids and something with surgery, I know surgical specialties involve a lot of work, and I know it's not going to be a cake-walk.
I have actually been recommended ENT by more than one person.
I am leaning more towards doing pediatric fellowship anyways just because I do want to work with kids.
Could someone comment on the lifestyle differences between pediatric orthopedic surgeon and pediatric ENT surgeon?

shadow a traumapod and see if you can survive treating acetabular fractures in gomes.
 
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