Vascular surg vs radiology

[Masterchiefcell]

This may be a dumb question, but is it true that pp radiologists work as much as general or vascular surgeons on average? I was looking on the aamc careers in medicine page and it has the average number of hours worked for radiology as 58 and general surgery as 59. Is this way off? And would the hours be similar after a vascular fellowship? Obviously the residency hours are much different, so this caught me a little off guard. Part of the reason that radiology is appealing is because of the thought that I'll still be able to know the names of all my kids (I know I know, only go into something because you love it but just humor me please). Thanks for your input.

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[IR4thewin]

I've rotated a fair amount in private practice scenarios and it seems like vascular surgery tends to work longer hours than radiology. Remember though, in private practice you are your own boss. The clinic scheduling is your patient inflow for surgical cases (excluding call situations). I know one pp VS who strictly limits his daily clinic visits and is done by 5pm on non call days. All other VS I've seen absolutely love the OR and want to see every case they can get. These have a PA and between the two see 50 patients in clinic on a half day. Their operative volumes are in the top 5% nationally. I'd say from the personalities I've met, this is what most VS want their practice to be. I asked them about family once and he said that he never missed a baseball game while his kids grew up. That said, the fields were right next to the hospital and he would often come back to the hospital to finish up cases after the games were over lol


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[Masterchiefcell]

I've rotated a fair amount in private practice scenarios and it seems like vascular surgery tends to work longer hours than radiology. Remember though, in private practice you are your own boss. The clinic scheduling is your patient inflow for surgical cases (excluding call situations). I know one pp VS who strictly limits his daily clinic visits and is done by 5pm on non call days. All other VS I've seen absolutely love the OR and want to see every case they can get. These have a PA and between the two see 50 patients in clinic on a half day. Their operative volumes are in the top 5% nationally. I'd say from the personalities I've met, this is what most VS want their practice to be. I asked them about family once and he said that he never missed a baseball game while his kids grew up. That said, the fields were right next to the hospital and he would often come back to the hospital to finish up cases after the games were over lol


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Hmmm I guess that's encouraging. Thanks for the response!

 

[meister]

These are completely different fields and it's hard to imagine a circumstance where contemplating the average hours worked in a week is much of a defining difference at all. One specialty is high stress, clinic, potentially deathly ill patients and middle of the night life saving marathon surgeries. The other is a mental sweatshop, non-stop, 100+ cases a day never-get-out-of-your-chair type days, at least if we are speaking about private practice. Then you go home (unless you're on call).

Pick your poison, though vascular surgery is clearly more physically daunting.

 

[colbgw02]

This may be a dumb question, but is it true that pp radiologists work as much as general or vascular surgeons on average? I was looking on the aamc careers in medicine page and it has the average number of hours worked for radiology as 58 and general surgery as 59. Is this way off? And would the hours be similar after a vascular fellowship? Obviously the residency hours are much different, so this caught me a little off guard. Part of the reason that radiology is appealing is because of the thought that I'll still be able to know the names of all my kids (I know I know, only go into something because you love it but just humor me please). Thanks for your input.

Regarding the bolded, radiology is somewhat unique in that post-residency practice is frequently busier than residency, so it's not surprising that you were caught off guard. Obviously, a surgeon can choose to be busier than he/she was while in training, but it's just that - a choice - in many instances. In contradistinction, radiologists often have their production expectations dictated to them. Vascular surgeons may feel compelled to work more, because they're in demand and they tend to be hard-chargers, but it's still a choice.

Also, as already mentioned, the type of work is vastly different. I'd rather work 80 hours/week as a radiologist than 40 as any type of surgeon.

 

[Masterchiefcell]

Regarding the bolded, radiology is somewhat unique in that post-residency practice is frequently busier than residency, so it's not surprising that you were caught off guard. Obviously, a surgeon can choose to be busier than he/she was while in training, but it's just that - a choice - in many instances. In contradistinction, radiologists often have their production expectations dictated to them. Vascular surgeons may feel compelled to work more, because they're in demand and they tend to be hard-chargers, but it's still a choice.

Also, as already mentioned, the type of work is vastly different. I'd rather work 80 hours/week as a radiologist than 40 as any type of surgeon.

Thanks for your input! Yeah it is very strange to me that radiology residency unique in that.

If you don't mind me asking, and I'm assuming you're already practicing radiology, what is it that motivates you from day to day. What do you look forward to the most about radiology? Also, how flexible are you able to be in your practice. For instance, are you just required to read a certain number of studies and so the hours you work aren't important as long as you meet a certain quota or do you have to be reading studies during specific hours? Thanks and sorry if these are naive questions

 

[colbgw02]

Thanks for your input! Yeah it is very strange to me that radiology residency unique in that.

If you don't mind me asking, and I'm assuming you're already practicing radiology, what is it that motivates you from day to day. What do you look forward to the most about radiology? Also, how flexible are you able to be in your practice. For instance, are you just required to read a certain number of studies and so the hours you work aren't important as long as you meet a certain quota or do you have to be reading studies during specific hours? Thanks and sorry if these are naive questions

I am extremely lucky in that I find radiology intellectually stimulating. Even when I am busy, I appreciate that I am engaging my brain in a way that I find meaningful and thought provoking, even if I do feel exhausted when I get home. However, I also try to remember all of the things about other specialties that I don't miss - things that are easy to forget when you've been doing this for awhile. For example, I enjoy being able to eat, piss, sit down/stand up, drink, and scratch when I want to. I enjoy minimal and/or focused patient contact - the kind that permits me to easily move past the irrelevant story about the old woman's granddaughter, and I enjoy not having to round. Also, I enjoy knowing that my work is complete when I leave the hospital.

In general terms, radiology is just as flexible as other specialties. I know people who work 3 days a week, no weekend, no nights, no holidays. I know people who work overnight shifts exclusively, both 1 on/1 off and 1 on/2 off. I know academics who work 9-5, but at a slow pace, with opportunities/obligations to teach. And I know people who work traditional private practice jobs, with call and very heavy production requirements. Everything is a trade-off, and you need to be willing to sacrifice. Between pay, location, and lifestyle, you'll probably only get to select two, and maybe only one, particularly if that one happens to be location.

Specifically, radiology is mostly shift work, with the expectation that you will handle everything assigned to you between time X and Y. For example, I can leave at 5 pm, but typically only if my list is clean. If you're slow, then expect to stay later to meet production expectations, especially in private practice. Practices handle work distribution in myriad ways, but you don't want to be the person reading less than your peers, nor do you want to develop a reputation of dumping on your colleagues.

 

[bashwell]

I am extremely lucky in that I find radiology intellectually stimulating. Even when I am busy, I appreciate that I am engaging my brain in a way that I find meaningful and thought provoking, even if I do feel exhausted when I get home. However, I also try to remember all of the things about other specialties that I don't miss - things that are easy to forget when you've been doing this for awhile. For example, I enjoy being able to eat, piss, sit down/stand up, drink, and scratch when I want to. I enjoy minimal and/or focused patient contact - the kind that permits me to easily move past the irrelevant story about the old woman's granddaughter, and I enjoy not having to round. Also, I enjoy knowing that my work is complete when I leave the hospital.

In general terms, radiology is just as flexible as other specialties. I know people who work 3 days a week, no weekend, no nights, no holidays. I know people who work overnight shifts exclusively, both 1 on/1 off and 1 on/2 off. I know academics who work 9-5, but at a slow pace, with opportunities/obligations to teach. And I know people who work traditional private practice jobs, with call and very heavy production requirements. Everything is a trade-off, and you need to be willing to sacrifice. Between pay, location, and lifestyle, you'll probably only get to select two, and maybe only one, particularly if that one happens to be location.

Specifically, radiology is mostly shift work, with the expectation that you will handle everything assigned to you between time X and Y. For example, I can leave at 5 pm, but typically only if my list is clean. If you're slow, then expect to stay later to meet production expectations, especially in private practice. Practices handle work distribution in myriad ways, but you don't want to be the person reading less than your peers, nor do you want to develop a reputation of dumping on your colleagues.

Med students deciding on a specialty, don't take the little things for granted! For example, check out this post by an anesthesiologist:

http://www.blog.greatzs.com/2016/04/to-pee-or-not-to-pee-that-is.html

 

[RadInterest]

Hello, would just like to revive this a bit to ask a question: since the new IR/DR res was set-up to be more clinical... does this mean the lifestyle becoming more and more similar to vasc surgeons?

PS. not trying to troll, just genuinely curious

 

[irwarrior]

The IR lifestyle is becoming busier. Direct patient care requires more time and responsibility and with the growing number of inpatient consultations and emergency procedures we can provide, the day to day existence is becoming more surgical. If you are doing minor IR and older model of order entry for procedures and not formal consults, it may be less busy. But, you may be relegated to paras , thoras, biopsies and drains.

 

[Doctor D]

IR has been and continues to be in a transition to a more clinical specialty. The definition of clinical will vary based on who you ask and an idealist would include rounding, admitting patients, having clinic, attending multidisciplinary conferences, and competing for patient referrals. There are a lot of growing pains going on at the moment in my opinion. For example, some IR docs may be forced to work for a diagnostic group because basically all diagnostic groups have exclusive contracts with hospitals and therefore control the angio suites. Vascular surgery has been around for a long time and wouldn't have to deal with these types of issues. I personally would still choose IR based on the personalities and cultures of the specialties. The vast majority of IR jobs currently still require diagnostic radiology time (usually 20 to 50% of your time). This can be a plus or minus depending on what you are looking for. Good luck.