USMLE scores importance is way over-rated among students !!

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doctr1

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Hello,

just imagine this thread that we usually see in the forums many times :
"I am an IMG with step 1 score 201, step 2 score 198, do you I have a chance for dermatology ?? "

we all know that the usual response to such thread is : you absolutely have no chance, you should have at least 250+ both steps to be considered for derma as IMG ... you better think about low competitive specialty or primary care ones.

in fact, we always emphasis on step score to be stellar, talking about 240+ or 250+ if you want to match for top ranked programs or high competitive specialties, but is this true?

I have been reading so many threads in this forum and other forums that everyone talking about 240+, 250+ both steps if you want to match,, while in fact ... I don't think this is true in most of the cases, Just a very quick view on NRMP charting outcome,
http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf
you will find IMG with mean score of 230 matched to very top competitive residencies like ortho, derma, neurosurgery, general surgery .... you will even find candidates with score 200 or below 200 matched to very competitive programs ... I know most of you would tell that these candidates had connections or they did something extraordinary to get matched .. I agree, and this proves my points ... scores are way overrated in the forums among students .... because with low scores you can still match, on the other hand if you looked to the charting outcome, you will find applicants with outstanding scores 260+ were not able to match to low competitive programs ...

if you looked carefully to the charting outcome, you will notice that much of the applicants get matched to the very high competitive programs had scores mean of 230, I am even talking about IMGs here, while the mean score of low competitive programs would lie between 210 - 220 ... I don't know where ( you must be 240+ , 250+ to be considered ) came from!

so let's go back to our original thread :
"I am an IMG with step 1 score 201, step 2 score 198, do you I have a chance for dermatology ??

the answer is: although your chances are very low, but yes you can.

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That dosent mean IMG. It's independent applicants whic combine DO's, US grads who didn't match the first time around and IMG's. for the super competitive specialties it would be safe to guess the majority of independent matches are US grad taking a second shot at Ortho, Derm etc.

Hello,

just imagine this thread that we usually see in the forums many times :
"I am an IMG with step 1 score 201, step 2 score 198, do you I have a chance for dermatology ?? "

we all know that the usual response to such thread is : you absolutely have no chance, you should have at least 250+ both steps to be considered for derma as IMG ... you better think about low competitive specialty or primary care ones.

in fact, we always emphasis on step score to be stellar, talking about 240+ or 250+ if you want to match for top ranked programs or high competitive specialties, but is this true?

I have been reading so many threads in this forum and other forums that everyone talking about 240+, 250+ both steps if you want to match,, while in fact ... I don't think this is true in most of the cases, Just a very quick view on NRMP charting outcome,
http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf
you will find IMG with mean score of 230 matched to very top competitive residencies like ortho, derma, neurosurgery, general surgery .... you will even find candidates with score 200 or below 200 matched to very competitive programs ... I know most of you would tell that these candidates had connections or they did something extraordinary to get matched .. I agree, and this proves my points ... scores are way overrated in the forums among students .... because with low scores you can still match, on the other hand if you looked to the charting outcome, you will find applicants with outstanding scores 260+ were not able to match to low competitive programs ...

if you looked carefully to the charting outcome, you will notice that much of the applicants get matched to the very high competitive programs had scores mean of 230, I am even talking about IMGs here, while the mean score of low competitive programs would lie between 210 - 220 ... I don't know where ( you must be 240+ , 250+ to be considered ) came from!

so let's go back to our original thread :
"I am an IMG with step 1 score 201, step 2 score 198, do you I have a chance for dermatology ??

the answer is: although your chances are very low, but yes you can.
 
so let's go back to our original thread :
"I am an IMG with step 1 score 201, step 2 score 198, do you I have a chance for dermatology ??

the answer is: although your chances are very low, but yes you can.

Similarly, assuming you're a US-born citizen, you have a chance of becoming president in 2016. It's very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very low...but sure...why the hell not.
 
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Hello,

just imagine this thread that we usually see in the forums many times :
"I am an IMG with step 1 score 201, step 2 score 198, do you I have a chance for dermatology ?? "

we all know that the usual response to such thread is : you absolutely have no chance, you should have at least 250+ both steps to be considered for derma as IMG ... you better think about low competitive specialty or primary care ones.

in fact, we always emphasis on step score to be stellar, talking about 240+ or 250+ if you want to match for top ranked programs or high competitive specialties, but is this true?

I have been reading so many threads in this forum and other forums that everyone talking about 240+, 250+ both steps if you want to match,, while in fact ... I don't think this is true in most of the cases, Just a very quick view on NRMP charting outcome,
http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf
you will find IMG with mean score of 230 matched to very top competitive residencies like ortho, derma, neurosurgery, general surgery .... you will even find candidates with score 200 or below 200 matched to very competitive programs ... I know most of you would tell that these candidates had connections or they did something extraordinary to get matched .. I agree, and this proves my points ... scores are way overrated in the forums among students .... because with low scores you can still match, on the other hand if you looked to the charting outcome, you will find applicants with outstanding scores 260+ were not able to match to low competitive programs ...

if you looked carefully to the charting outcome, you will notice that much of the applicants get matched to the very high competitive programs had scores mean of 230, I am even talking about IMGs here, while the mean score of low competitive programs would lie between 210 - 220 ... I don't know where ( you must be 240+ , 250+ to be considered ) came from!

so let's go back to our original thread :
"I am an IMG with step 1 score 201, step 2 score 198, do you I have a chance for dermatology ??

the answer is: although your chances are very low, but yes you can.

This is very much like when the character in dumb and dumber is told his chances with his love interest are 1 in a million, and he takes that as "so you are saying there's a chance". Seriously there's a point where odds are so bad that it's effectively zero and you don't do yourself any favors thinking otherwise. This is a good example.
 
This is very much like when the character in dumb and dumber is told his chances with his love interest are 1 in a million, and he takes that as "so you are saying there's a chance". Seriously there's a point where odds are so bad that it's effectively zero and you don't do yourself any favors thinking otherwise. This is a good example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX5jNnDMfxA
 
I agree with this. Step scores' importance is way exaggerated. There were plenty of people with great scores who didn't get the greatest interviews and also plenty of classmates with fairly crappy board scores who got an incredible # of interviews. As long as they aren't awful your chances are just as great as with someone with 230-240s assuming you show interest and are a US citizen.

Hello,

just imagine this thread that we usually see in the forums many times :
"I am an IMG with step 1 score 201, step 2 score 198, do you I have a chance for dermatology ?? "

we all know that the usual response to such thread is : you absolutely have no chance, you should have at least 250+ both steps to be considered for derma as IMG ... you better think about low competitive specialty or primary care ones.

in fact, we always emphasis on step score to be stellar, talking about 240+ or 250+ if you want to match for top ranked programs or high competitive specialties, but is this true?

I have been reading so many threads in this forum and other forums that everyone talking about 240+, 250+ both steps if you want to match,, while in fact ... I don't think this is true in most of the cases, Just a very quick view on NRMP charting outcome,
http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf
you will find IMG with mean score of 230 matched to very top competitive residencies like ortho, derma, neurosurgery, general surgery .... you will even find candidates with score 200 or below 200 matched to very competitive programs ... I know most of you would tell that these candidates had connections or they did something extraordinary to get matched .. I agree, and this proves my points ... scores are way overrated in the forums among students .... because with low scores you can still match, on the other hand if you looked to the charting outcome, you will find applicants with outstanding scores 260+ were not able to match to low competitive programs ...

if you looked carefully to the charting outcome, you will notice that much of the applicants get matched to the very high competitive programs had scores mean of 230, I am even talking about IMGs here, while the mean score of low competitive programs would lie between 210 - 220 ... I don't know where ( you must be 240+ , 250+ to be considered ) came from!

so let's go back to our original thread :
"I am an IMG with step 1 score 201, step 2 score 198, do you I have a chance for dermatology ??

the answer is: although your chances are very low, but yes you can.
 
I agree with this. Step scores' importance is way exaggerated. There were plenty of people with great scores who didn't get the greatest interviews and also plenty of classmates with fairly crappy board scores who got an incredible # of interviews. As long as they aren't awful your chances are just as great as with someone with 230-240s assuming you show interest and are a US citizen.

For things like Ortho, Urology, Derm you chances are crappy even if you have 250's, show all the interest in the world, your still not getting in more than likely. As for being a IMG I do think it is becoming more and more important to be a US citizen in general. I know plenty of Canadians with very good numbers getting far fewer IV's them US citizens with lesser scores in Things like IM and FM.
 
Solemn advice from an IMG with mediocre scores- Scores are the single most important factor to get you an interview for any specialty (IM for me), let alone Ortho, Derm etc. Score above the national mean to be safe, way above to be safer.

A couple of hours more daily at your study desk will save you a lot of frustration later.

Don't let anything else fool you.
 
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Not to beat a dead horse, but in agreement with everyone else who feels you are grossly misinterpreting the data here. Saying that the mean step score of an independent who matched ortho is ~230 ignores the fact that most people with that number still aren't matching--75% of independent applicants between 231 and 240 failed to match, and as someone else pointed out, many of these "independent applicants" are likely US grads who did a prelim or research year after failing to match rather than IMGs.

People aren't saying that you need amazing board scores to get into highly competitive specialties--especially as an IMG--to be mean. They say it because it's the truth, and there's no point in someone getting their heart set on one of those fields only to get crushed when interview season rolls around.
 
The results are evident by comparing the mean match score for the competitive specialties and the noncompetitive specialties.

For example, for IM independent applicants require a much higher score to match than US applicants. However, for the tougher specialties like Orhto and Rads, independent applicants that match have lower scores than US applicants.

This isn't because the tough specialties like Independents more than US grads, its just that the sample size of independent applicants that match is so small and includes a lot more grads with stellar resumes and possibly superstars in the field that decide to come to the US.

Ultimately Step scores are the one thing all applicants have in common, and they remain the single best modifiable risk factor for matching.
 
The results are evident by comparing the mean match score for the competitive specialties and the noncompetitive specialties.

For example, for IM independent applicants require a much higher score to match than US applicants. However, for the tougher specialties like Orhto and Rads, independent applicants that match have lower scores than US applicants.

This isn't because the tough specialties like Independents more than US grads, its just that the sample size of independent applicants that match is so small and includes a lot more grads with stellar resumes and possibly superstars in the field that decide to come to the US.

Ultimately Step scores are the one thing all applicants have in common, and they remain the single best modifiable risk factor for matching.

I dont think you understand the charts. In something like IM pretty much 99% of US grads that apply match so all the independent applicants will be IMG's or DO's so it makes sense the average board scores will need to be higher.

In something like Ortho or Derm where US grads match at much lower rate you have many more US grads reapplying who are classified as independent applicants. These US grads likely have lower board scores hence not matching the year before and spend a year doing research or a prelim year then match. As an IMG it is nearly impossible to match into something like Ortho without serious, serious connections or doing 2+ years research etc somewhere, even with all that the odds are strongly against you.
 
I dont think you understand the charts. In something like IM pretty much 99% of US grads that apply match so all the independent applicants will be IMG's or DO's so it makes sense the average board scores will need to be higher.

In something like Ortho or Derm where US grads match at much lower rate you have many more US grads reapplying who are classified as independent applicants. These US grads likely have lower board scores hence not matching the year before and spend a year doing research or a prelim year then match. As an IMG it is nearly impossible to match into something like Ortho without serious, serious connections or doing 2+ years research etc somewhere, even with all that the odds are strongly against you.

:thumbup::thumbup:

If you guys need proof of this statement, look at Table 2 in this document:

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf

independent applicants
matched IM: US grads: 87; DOs: 355; US IMG: 598; IMG: 1,239 (87/2279 = 4% were US grads)
matched ortho: US grads: 30; DOs: 2; US IMG: 3; IMG: 6 (30/41 = 73% were US grads)

...so I guess there is hope for IMGs in something like ortho (or neurosurgery, which is interesting cuz 13 IMGs matched in that, more than any other highly competitive specialty), but very faint and these people are likely superstars from schools in countries like England or Germany (or Canada) or something.
 
Adding something to the conversation, many of the IMG's who match into competitive specialties at my institution were already practicing as an attending in their home country, and have put out meaningful research before matching. I know for a fact that 1/6 of those ortho IMG's was a specialized total joints attending where he is from.
 
Actually, what differentiates many of those posts from AMGs' versions of the same is the posting of Step scores using the two-digit scores.

"99/98/pass/99 what are my chances?"

or, alternatively,

"80 2nd attempt/85/pass/82 2nd pass"

etc.
 
I dont think you understand the charts. In something like IM pretty much 99% of US grads that apply match so all the independent applicants will be IMG's or DO's so it makes sense the average board scores will need to be higher.

In something like Ortho or Derm where US grads match at much lower rate you have many more US grads reapplying who are classified as independent applicants. These US grads likely have lower board scores hence not matching the year before and spend a year doing research or a prelim year then match. As an IMG it is nearly impossible to match into something like Ortho without serious, serious connections or doing 2+ years research etc somewhere, even with all that the odds are strongly against you.
I didn't know that about 2nd year applicants so thank you.

My point still stands though about the Step scores being the single most important factor in the matching process. Obviously anything is possible, but they seem to be the biggest application boost.
 
I didn't know that about 2nd year applicants so thank you.

My point still stands though about the Step scores being the single most important factor in the matching process. Obviously anything is possible, but they seem to be the biggest application boost.

Yes and no to this. YES there are certain specialties that are very heavy on numbers esp. derm and ortho. Also realize that most applicants self-select, in other words, they do not apply if they have lower scores. So you will see far less people applying to certain specialties with lower scores. it's a lot more likely that someone with a 210 will apply to say IM vs. derm bc they may feel they won't get into derm. However there are plenty of cases of people with low scores matching into competitive specialties. You don't see them frequently bc there are far less of these people bc most won't even bother. I know a number of people who matched derm with high 190's/200ish and I know people in other specialties who matched with low scores. I would say that for the most part, most people can indeed match into just about any specialty, regardless of scores but it will take far more work for those wiht the low scores vs. those with high scores of course.
 
Hello,

just imagine this thread that we usually see in the forums many times :
"I am an IMG with step 1 score 201, step 2 score 198, do you I have a chance for dermatology ?? "

we all know that the usual response to such thread is : you absolutely have no chance, you should have at least 250+ both steps to be considered for derma as IMG ... you better think about low competitive specialty or primary care ones.

in fact, we always emphasis on step score to be stellar, talking about 240+ or 250+ if you want to match for top ranked programs or high competitive specialties, but is this true?

I have been reading so many threads in this forum and other forums that everyone talking about 240+, 250+ both steps if you want to match,, while in fact ... I don't think this is true in most of the cases, Just a very quick view on NRMP charting outcome,
http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf
you will find IMG with mean score of 230 matched to very top competitive residencies like ortho, derma, neurosurgery, general surgery .... you will even find candidates with score 200 or below 200 matched to very competitive programs ... I know most of you would tell that these candidates had connections or they did something extraordinary to get matched .. I agree, and this proves my points ... scores are way overrated in the forums among students .... because with low scores you can still match, on the other hand if you looked to the charting outcome, you will find applicants with outstanding scores 260+ were not able to match to low competitive programs ...

if you looked carefully to the charting outcome, you will notice that much of the applicants get matched to the very high competitive programs had scores mean of 230, I am even talking about IMGs here, while the mean score of low competitive programs would lie between 210 - 220 ... I don't know where ( you must be 240+ , 250+ to be considered ) came from!

so let's go back to our original thread :
"I am an IMG with step 1 score 201, step 2 score 198, do you I have a chance for dermatology ??

the answer is: although your chances are very low, but yes you can.


Like everyone said .. even if it s not openly said but all programs do have some kinds of filters and scores is the most imp and first one . So virtually 90-95% of programs will filter out your app . { Let me tell ur probabilty of matching.just an idea considering generous probabilities.}

second , If by calling a program or goin there personally or personally working under some significant faculty of an institution or knowing him personally , you do manage( one or two) to see ur app. ...!!! thats 2 in 100(2/100) ; consider your self the luckiest.

Third , Needless to say ,You need to have something stellar in ur app.., to grant u an interview . 1/10

fourth , u need to impress every one at the interviews. and explain ur low scores , that they were not caused by an inability of ur understanding of concepts or hard work or lack of interest but smthng else.!!! 1/10

Fifth, U need to also prepare for preliminary and transitional year (if u get somwhere ) and blow their minds off !!! 1/3

Finally , Luck and everything else to work ou tin theis long road (atleast keep 2-3 yrs).. 1/ 10x3
so yea I wudnt say its 1 in a million but 2/100x1/10x1/10x1/3x1/30..... abt 2/1000000 = 0.0000002 % ... just a mathematical approach .. its upto u to see what ratios u can change .. good luck
 
Yes and no to this. YES there are certain specialties that are very heavy on numbers esp. derm and ortho. Also realize that most applicants self-select, in other words, they do not apply if they have lower scores. So you will see far less people applying to certain specialties with lower scores. it's a lot more likely that someone with a 210 will apply to say IM vs. derm bc they may feel they won't get into derm. However there are plenty of cases of people with low scores matching into competitive specialties. You don't see them frequently bc there are far less of these people bc most won't even bother. I know a number of people who matched derm with high 190's/200ish and I know people in other specialties who matched with low scores. I would say that for the most part, most people can indeed match into just about any specialty, regardless of scores but it will take far more work for those wiht the low scores vs. those with high scores of course.
I can definitely understand that. Even as far as IMGs go I've definitely noticed a significant trend of only applying to IM/FM/Psychiatry and considering everything else impossible. Hell, I heard of an IMG with a 278 Step 1 going for pediatrics.

At the end of the day nothing really is impossible, but the odds may not be in your favor.
 
:thumbup::thumbup:

If you guys need proof of this statement, look at Table 2 in this document:

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf

independent applicants
matched IM: US grads: 87; DOs: 355; US IMG: 598; IMG: 1,239 (87/2279 = 4% were US grads)
matched ortho: US grads: 30; DOs: 2; US IMG: 3; IMG: 6 (30/41 = 73% were US grads)

...so I guess there is hope for IMGs in something like ortho (or neurosurgery, which is interesting cuz 13 IMGs matched in that, more than any other highly competitive specialty), but very faint and these people are likely superstars from schools in countries like England or Germany (or Canada) or something.
It looks like one foreign medical grad (non-US citizen graduate of a foreign medical school) matched into derm. Three US-citizen IMGs and three DOs. Everyone else was an AMG in 2012.
 
It looks like one foreign medical grad (non-US citizen graduate of a foreign medical school) matched into derm. Three US-citizen IMGs and three DOs. Everyone else was an AMG in 2012.

When talking about single examples you also have to appreciate that some people have connections or unique things on their resume you may not be able to duplicate just by scoring well and applying. If this one person has some amazing thing in their background or a strong networking connection you can't ever hope to duplicate, you might as well ignore this data point. This kind if data thus doesn't necessarily show it's possible -- it may emphasize that without certain overriding factors it actually is impossible.
 
When talking about single examples you also have to appreciate that some people have connections or unique things on their resume you may not be able to duplicate just by scoring well and applying. If this one person has some amazing thing in their background or a strong networking connection you can't ever hope to duplicate, you might as well ignore this data point. This kind if data thus doesn't necessarily show it's possible -- it may emphasize that without certain overriding factors it actually is impossible.

It also goes to show that for those who have not self-selected, it's possible to match into competitive specialties, even with crappy scores. It goes to show that other factors can indeed make up for the crappiness (not sure if it's a word?) of the steps.
 
It also goes to show that for those who have not self-selected, it's possible to match into competitive specialties, even with crappy scores. It goes to show that other factors can indeed make up for the crappiness (not sure if it's a word?) of the steps.

If those factors are things you can't duplicate it's just a pipe dream. So no, you always need to throw out the outliers. They dont represent useful data points.
 
If those factors are things you can't duplicate it's just a pipe dream. So no, you always need to throw out the outliers. They dont represent useful data points.

While I wouldn't go around suggesting people with a 210 to apply for derm, I certainly would not discourage an attempt to apply for competitive specialties with less than stellar scores. I've seen it done over and over but that's just my opinion.
 
I would say go for it with a low score to a US Grad, as long as they have a solid back-up plan in place, i.e. ranking a second specialty or research year.
 
I knew a guy with a Step 1 ~ 200 (and an otherwise mediocre resume) applying for Derm, but his father was a famous Dermatologist and he had some major connections within the field.
 
Still, per OPs original declaration....Board scores, while not be-all, end-all...are definitely NOT overrated by medical students. Special circumstances may lessen their importance, sure...
 
the important of high board scores when applying for things like derm, plastics and ortho for a categorical spot is hard to overstate, especially for people who are IMG and especially if you are not a US citizen. Look at the numbers (as posted above) if you don't believe it.

However, I can think of examples of people with pretty moderate scores like 215 or 220 getting into things like ortho or derm, if they are US grads and especially from a good school, and often after doing a year or two of research or doing part of another residency (general surg or medicine, etc.). Part of it depends on to what extremes you are willing to go...how long to delay being an attending, etc.

I also agree that probably several of those ppl matching to surgery, derm etc. who are IMG's are people who already did a residency abroad and may already be an attending in another country, etc. Sometimes they are desired as faculty at some institution, etc. but they have to do an intern year or whole US residency in order to make that possible.

Remember that these types of residencies (ortho, derm, etc.) are choosers and not beggars. The fact that you or some other applicant has incredible enthusiasm for some field or other does not mean you will get, or are likely to get, a residency in your chosen field. Even if you go to a US school that is top 5 or top 10 ranked or something, if you are not AOA and/or didn't honor a lot of 3rd year clerkships and didn't get above average board scores, it's not that likely you will get what you want, especially on your first try. It may be harsh but it is life. But I do think there are more "back door" ways to get into certain specialties or at least to approximate them, than most medical students realize. For example, some people might not be able to get a plastics residency but if they did general surgery then might be able to switch over later, perhaps, or to do a cosmetic surgery fellowship (not the same but would allow you to "do" some of the same stuff later in your practice). Or sometimes people start out in general surgery and then switch into orthopedic or another surgical specialty that they really originally wanted. Or people do an IM residency for 2-3 years and then get a derm spot. But you can't guarantee that you will be able to "switch" later so you better be sure that your backup plan is something you can tolerate doing as a specialty...and don't burn too many clinical bridges by running off to he research lab for years and years before doing an intern year.

As an aside, I feel like schools should do more to help med students find a field they can succeed in, and will like doing, and yes to have reasonable expectations but also to help people think of strategies for how they can succeed. I felt like I didn't get much guidance as a med student and that people who had parents who were doctors were at a huge advantage throughout the whole process (clinical years and the Match, etc.). Of course the student bears some responsibility in all this (in fact a large part) but at the same time there are a lot of unwritten rules in medicine and there is a lot of under the table and behind the back stuff that goes on, and interviews, etc. are not like a normal job application process.
 
Wow, looking at the 2012 match data...over 50% of family medicine and IM residents are foreign grads. Amazing
 
When talking about single examples you also have to appreciate that some people have connections or unique things on their resume you may not be able to duplicate just by scoring well and applying. If this one person has some amazing thing in their background or a strong networking connection you can't ever hope to duplicate, you might as well ignore this data point. This kind if data thus doesn't necessarily show it's possible -- it may emphasize that without certain overriding factors it actually is impossible.
Yeah, if your last name is Mohs or you were known for running a research lab at a top Chinese university with annual funding in the multi-million dollar range, you might be in the running.
 
Similarly, assuming you're a US-born citizen, you have a chance of becoming president in 2016. It's very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very low...but sure...why the hell not.
This post has aged quite nicely
 
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