Hello everyone! I'm in one of the most confusing times in my life and I need some honest opinions. I'm going to dive right in: I applied this cycle to medical school in the states and to 2 Caribbean schools (Ross and SGU). I am graduating with a 3.1 GPA, have a lower science GPA (not really sure and don't want to depress myself). I took the "new" MCAT in July of last year and got a 495, which is around a 25 on the old MCAT. I'm really interested in writing and media (I would love to be a medical correspondent for a major news network) and am a published student writer for my schools health magazine, have my own lifestyle blog for pre-health students and medical professionals (check it out: stylemdblog.wordpress.com) and have really, really good ECs. Really what is lacking are my numbers which are also very important. I've only heard yes from Ross, am expecting an interview from SGU and have 2 more schools to hear "no" from in the states. Before I took my MCAT, I heard about and became very interested in USC's Masters of Global Medicine program and already applied to that, and am studying to take my GRE to supplement my lower MCAT. This is where you come in. Do you think going to a non-SMP like USC's is worth it? I would be taking classes with MS1s, would be able to travel, have more research and shadow experience, and would be able to study for my MCAT and possibly do better with my grad GPA and MCAT score. BUT, on the other hand I currently have an acceptance, keeping in mind I'll have to work my ass off to be successful (I want to do ER and eventually settle down in palliative care). Given only those options, what would you recommend? (Please don't suggest I do something completely different because that will make the confusion insurmountable! lol) I can't really decide what is better and my family especially is really pressuring me to go the Caribbean route because it's an acceptance "somewhere". Of course they wont be paying my loans or studying for me, so I'm still trying to make the best decision for me! Please be honest. I have tough skin! Thanks so much in advance.
USC Keck MGM vs. Ross/SGU?!
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Probably around 20-30% of carribean matriculants actually match in the US, and the majority of these people can only match primary care. The rest end up failing out or not matching, and then going back to the states with six figure debt and no job prospects.
Based on your GPA and MCAT (which is actually closer to a 22 than a 25), chances are high you will be among those who don't make it to graduation. If you really want to be a doctor, prove you can handle it by doing a postbacand acing your classes, scoring a 510+ on your MCAT and reapply to US schools.
Based on your GPA and MCAT (which is actually closer to a 22 than a 25), chances are high you will be among those who don't make it to graduation. If you really want to be a doctor, prove you can handle it by doing a postbacand acing your classes, scoring a 510+ on your MCAT and reapply to US schools.
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Agreed. Please read about the Caribbean before doing this. It is worth it to take 4 more years to get in than put up with the hell that is trying to match back in the states. "A doctor is a doctor" is a saying that gets tossed around in this type of situation by parents and others who really don't know what they are talking about (hell, I think it is even a carrib. school's slogan somewhere). Some may be successful out of these places, but aim to get that MCAT up. Also, go DO next round.
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You want the truth? Here it is. You shouldn't go to Ross or SGU. Both schools have horrible attrition. Ross' is around 30% and SGU is around there as well. SGU reports a 10% attrition on their website but that's crap. They have this ingenious little ploy where they force students into a corner and make them withdraw, then don't factor that into attrition. Bottom line, your odds of becoming a practicing physician coming from either school are less than 50%. Even if you match, it'll be in primary care (really really unlikely you'll get EM) and you'll struggle to pay back that sky high tuition.
IDK much about Keck's program, but from briefly glancing at their website, I'm going to call it fluff. This degree will do little to nothing to get you to your ultimate goal of becoming a physician. You might be able to get a job in a health-related field with it though. Honestly, neither is a good option, but if you're set on 1 of the 2 like you said, go with the MS.
IDK much about Keck's program, but from briefly glancing at their website, I'm going to call it fluff. This degree will do little to nothing to get you to your ultimate goal of becoming a physician. You might be able to get a job in a health-related field with it though. Honestly, neither is a good option, but if you're set on 1 of the 2 like you said, go with the MS.
Thanks so much. I'm so grateful for your honesty! It's honestly refreshing. I know I'm deviating from my initial question, but if you were to throw me your "solution" to my issue, what would you suggest?
Thanks so much! I'm so grateful.
Thanks so much for your correction of my MCAT. That's good to know. I'm so grateful for your help, you are really helping reduce my anxiety.
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first off, never go to the caribbeans with hopeful expectation to practice in the US unless you have deep pockets or truly no more willpower to withstand further application cycles, and even then this would forebode ominously. although there are good people that come out of the caribbeans and become successful physicians in the US, they are by far the minority of their initial matriculating class. it is a truly a gladiator's arena over there to weed out the weak, ignorant, and arrogant of their dreams and, of course, their money.
unless you have deep pockets or a significant scholarship to attend USC non-SMP, then don't bother attending the MGM program, especially if all you want to use it for is to alleviate your other issues in your application to medical school. if you do well in the non-SMP it will help, but not by a lot.
consider DO: retake courses, retake the MCAT, and whatever else you need in terms of EC/LOR/essay.
unless you have deep pockets or a significant scholarship to attend USC non-SMP, then don't bother attending the MGM program, especially if all you want to use it for is to alleviate your other issues in your application to medical school. if you do well in the non-SMP it will help, but not by a lot.
consider DO: retake courses, retake the MCAT, and whatever else you need in terms of EC/LOR/essay.
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You don't even seem passionate about medicine in the first place besides writing about it. Go to journalism school or get an MPH so you're qualified to make comments about the healthcare system and forego medical school altogether.
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It sounds like you're more interested in the science writing aspect than being a physician, anyway. The master's program might be a better fit.
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Retake MCAT, retake any science courses that you scored a C or below, and apply DO.
Thanks so much for your opinion. As someone who is quoting scripture about loving others, this is a pretty ironic response... A short paragraph quickly describing my situation to ensure people don't get bored reading my academic story shouldn't be enough to determine my passion or love for medicine. I'm not sure what I'd need to do to prove it to you (perhaps, to get your attention, say I'd be willing to sell my soul to the devil for an acceptance? LOL). As a future physician yourself, I hope you can learn that you can't label your patients (or anyone else you meet for that matter) by what you see on paper. Thanks again for your opinion. Be blessed.
Thanks so much. It sounds like you didn't read my post or glean the point from it fully. I love medicine, lest I wouldn't have subjected myself to the piranhas on SDN. But you're right, I do love writing! Medicine doesn't have to be one track minded. I'm sure you already know that. Thanks again!
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I'm not sure in what tone you read my message but it really was not posted condescendingly. From what you said it sounds like your family is more interested in you going into medicine than you are. You also seem like you enjoy writing on healthcare and being involved in reforming it.
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Thanks for the clarification. I don't need your approval at all! I was just addressing the fact that you made assumptions based off of a very short paragraph describing myself. I, personally, would like to have a very multi-faceted career as a medical professional. I want to go to medical school but I also want to make an educated and calculated decision about it. One that suits me best (that's why I mentioned my family in the first place). That's why I'm here!
Thanks so much! Very practical.
I'm so grateful for your extensive and extremely helpful response. THANK YOU! You've given me a lot of good stuff to chew on.
Wow... thanks so much for the extensive response. I'm so grateful you took the time to help me! What makes this situation even trickier is that my sister goes to Ross currently... I personally don't think it's for me, and since I'm pretty young I'm willing to wait. Thanks for the eye opening information. Also very grateful that you conceded that the Carib did used to be a good option and it still can be - just not sure it's right for me. Thanks again!
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Pretty much this.
EM is common for DOs and you could start in as early as 2 years depending on how things go. No need to add on debt with expensive SMPs this way either. Get those GPAs above 3.2 and a 505+ MCAT and apply day one. Good luck!
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I'm going to SGU med this August and I have no regrets about it. I know several doctors that went to SGU med, in specialties ranging from family medicine to interventional cardiology. The head of this major hospital in my hometown went to SGU. I have 3 friends that are there right now and one just got matched at NYU for residency--all 3 of my friends love it. I honestly beg them to tell me negatives but the only things I've heard are most people tend to drop out first semester for various reasons, and international med students, on average, need to score higher than US Step 1 average to try and secure a residency. I believe the US average is 224, so shoot for a 230. Great thing about SGU is their students on average, are scoring at, or higher (by 1%) than the US average.
If you put in the work, just like at any other medical school, you will be fine. SGU grads are approved to practice in all 50 states--have all the same approvals as US MD. 53.9% International US med students get a residency--however, there are a lot of international medical schools, and as you know, they aren't all created equally. SGU is the #1 US residency provider for international medical students. If you can't get into anywhere in the US, then I'd say SGU is a solid back up.
If you put in the work, just like at any other medical school, you will be fine. SGU grads are approved to practice in all 50 states--have all the same approvals as US MD. 53.9% International US med students get a residency--however, there are a lot of international medical schools, and as you know, they aren't all created equally. SGU is the #1 US residency provider for international medical students. If you can't get into anywhere in the US, then I'd say SGU is a solid back up.
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Yes, and they love suckers like you. Flip a coin, because those are the odds that you will ever become a doctor.
The point here isn't that there are successful Carib grads. The point is how many additional obstacles to success you face by going to a Carib school.
The pool of US applicants from the Caribbean is viewed differently by Program Directors. The DDx for a Caribbean grad is pretty off-putting: bad judgment, bad advice, egotism, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems, weak research skills, high risk behavior. This is not to say that all of them still have the quality that drew them into this situation. There is just no way to know which ones they are. Some PD's are in a position where they need to, or can afford to take risks too! So, some do get interviews.
Bad grades and scores are the least of the deficits from a PD's standpoint. A strong academic showing in a Caribbean medical school does not erase this stigma. It fact it increases the perception that the reason for the choice was on the above-mentioned list!
Just about everyone from a Caribbean school has one or more of these problems and PDs know it. That's why their grads are the last choice even with a high Step 1 score.
There was a time when folks whose only flaw was being a late bloomer went Carib, but those days are gone. There are a number of spots at US schools with grade replacement for these candidates.
It's likely you'll be in the bottom half or two thirds of the class that gets dismissed before Step 1. The business plan of a Carib school depends on the majority of the class not needing to be supported in clinical rotations. They literally can't place all 250+ of the starting class at clinical sites (educational malpractice, really. If this happened at a US school, they be shut down by LCME or COCA, and sued.
The Carib (and other offshore) schools have very tenuous, very expensive, very controversial relationships with a very small number of US clinical sites. You may think you can just ask to do your clinical rotations at a site near home. Nope. You may think you don't have to worry about this stuff. Wrong.
And let's say you get through med school in the Carib and get what you need out of the various clinical rotation scenarios. Then you are in the match gamble. I don't need to say a word about this - you can find everything you need to know at nrmp.org.
You really need to talk to people who made it through Carib into residency, and hear the story from them. How many people were in their class at the start, how many are in it now? How long did it take to get a residency, and how did they handle the gap year(s) and their student loans? How many residencies did they apply to, how many interviews did they get, and were any of the programs on their match list anything like what they wanted?
A little light reading:
Million $ Mistake
Medical School at SGU
The point here isn't that there are successful Carib grads. The point is how many additional obstacles to success you face by going to a Carib school.
The pool of US applicants from the Caribbean is viewed differently by Program Directors. The DDx for a Caribbean grad is pretty off-putting: bad judgment, bad advice, egotism, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems, weak research skills, high risk behavior. This is not to say that all of them still have the quality that drew them into this situation. There is just no way to know which ones they are. Some PD's are in a position where they need to, or can afford to take risks too! So, some do get interviews.
Bad grades and scores are the least of the deficits from a PD's standpoint. A strong academic showing in a Caribbean medical school does not erase this stigma. It fact it increases the perception that the reason for the choice was on the above-mentioned list!
Just about everyone from a Caribbean school has one or more of these problems and PDs know it. That's why their grads are the last choice even with a high Step 1 score.
There was a time when folks whose only flaw was being a late bloomer went Carib, but those days are gone. There are a number of spots at US schools with grade replacement for these candidates.
It's likely you'll be in the bottom half or two thirds of the class that gets dismissed before Step 1. The business plan of a Carib school depends on the majority of the class not needing to be supported in clinical rotations. They literally can't place all 250+ of the starting class at clinical sites (educational malpractice, really. If this happened at a US school, they be shut down by LCME or COCA, and sued.
The Carib (and other offshore) schools have very tenuous, very expensive, very controversial relationships with a very small number of US clinical sites. You may think you can just ask to do your clinical rotations at a site near home. Nope. You may think you don't have to worry about this stuff. Wrong.
And let's say you get through med school in the Carib and get what you need out of the various clinical rotation scenarios. Then you are in the match gamble. I don't need to say a word about this - you can find everything you need to know at nrmp.org.
You really need to talk to people who made it through Carib into residency, and hear the story from them. How many people were in their class at the start, how many are in it now? How long did it take to get a residency, and how did they handle the gap year(s) and their student loans? How many residencies did they apply to, how many interviews did they get, and were any of the programs on their match list anything like what they wanted?
A little light reading:
Million $ Mistake
Medical School at SGU
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I understand your point--and every point about Caribbean MD. I've heard it all. But I personally know successful doctors who went to SGU and they told me to pursue it--maybe because they know me and know my work ethic. However, I am going there on a 50% scholarship, I am a co-founder of a new research institution I and my PI will be starting there when I begin SGU in August and I am not worried about numbers, as crazy as that may sound. I am extremely confident in my academic abilities, I graduated with a 3.74 Biochemistry from UF. Large drop out numbers because 1. people realize medicine isn't for them 2. Caribbean MDs accept people with lower GPA/MCAT on average which means the students may or may not be able to handle the material and course loads 3. Larger Caribbean class sizes can make it more difficult to learn 4. People don't have social support needed to succeed
These are obstacles I've already overcome while in undergrad--large classes, weed out classes with 70% fail rates, etc.
I am aware of all of the pros and cons. I am an optimist, for better or for worse, but considering I have friends there now doing well, and looking at SGU 2017 Match list, I am not worried. I think the stigma is true regarding MOST Caribbean MD, but the thing is people DO make it and become successful doctors. Plus, I want to do internal medicine so seeing as that is not that difficult of a residency to land, I am not too concerned.
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Thanks for the numbers! It's definitely a good thing to know, but it doesn't mean matching is impossible, just more difficult. I believe if you want something, you work your ass off for it--and I will happily do that for what I am passionate about.
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We should sticky that. Its been said here soo many times.
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Based on the numbers and someone who clearly didn't have to revert to a Caribbean MD as an option, that makes a lot of sense and I respect your advising. All in all, people are still obtaining residencies from SGU (SGU - Residency Appointment Directory) therefore, there is still hope for people who are intelligent and determined enough to be successful in medical school and on Step exams. US-IMGs matching has remained pretty constant over the years, as you said, and with the doctor shortage that is so frequently referred to, I am curious to see if/how the numbers will increase--considering they open up more spots for residencies.
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Actually, if someone can't get into anywhere in the US (MD and DO), they should pursue a different career altogether.
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Well, this thread is depressing. Like seriously gatorgirl23 is thinking with Trump-esque level logic here. How can you reason with someone who thinks this way??? Maybe OP can comment and tell us if they went to the carib and dropped out, then we can have a countervailing anecdote, which seems to be the only argument gatorgirl23 is willing to accept.
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The only depressing thing is the negativity from all of you people. I personally know doctors who attended SGU and have friends who attend right now. Not sure what your condescending comments are trying to get across, and thanks for the Trump comparison, the man is very successful and did indeed win the Presidency. Carib MD isn't for everyone, but it is for me and I have zero problems with it. Also, the one with the faulty logic here is all of you. I know the pros and the cons, I'm not naive and ignorant lol. But you people cannot simply accept any pros because of the "stigma and lower numbers when compared to the US." But, you are missing the fact that still many people become successful from attending carib MDs. The director of this major hospital in my hometown, went to SGU. I know interventional cardiologists, ER docs, pediatricians--all went to SGU. Yes, it makes it more difficult to obtain residencies, but it happens.
I'll let you know where I match in 4 years.
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Thanks for the heads up and insight. I will give it my best shot and see what happens. Those people who did not match probably had low GPA and Step scores. People are still matching and those who do obviously have good enough GPA and Step. Yes spots are limited, but people match from SGU every year and I'd rather look at the cup half full than empty to be honest. If numbers scared me, I would have never wanted to be a doctor in the first place, as less then 1% of the population is even in the field.
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Say that to all the doctors who went to carib med schools and made it back into the US: SGU - Residency Appointment Directory
I never applied to DO, I know I could get in (3.74 and 503), but I want the MD.
oh and one more thing: Quality of care delivered by general internists in US hospitals who graduated from foreign versus US medical schools: observational study | The BMJ
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It's been real fun guys, won't be replying on this forum anymore because this is out of hand. If you're that salty/weird and want to know where I match in 4 years, message me then.
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You may or may not see this, but all I want to advise you on is the big MD/DO merger that will be occurring in 2020, which is going to be before you apply for match. The current thought is with that is that with one centralized residency application, your bias will be MD > DO > MD international (lumping them all together here). That even further decreases your chances of getting a residency. Now, if you are hellbent on primary care as a means to be a physician, then maybe it is higher than 50%, but it seems you have made up your mind. Just throwing this additional thing out here for consideration.
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Also, my N=3, when I was working in a hospital and had EPIC training, the tech support guys were people who went to SGU and Ross for medical school who didn't make it to match. The one dude hit the national mean for his year and the other 2 hit 230 for their years respectively (~4 years ago). All 3 applied for rural primary care and didn't get it.
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Who actually knows where the future of US-IMG's will be after the merger... If I knew about the "merger" before the fact, I may have actually thought twice. I used the success of my peers as the only vantage point I had into the Caribbean. As an insider, I would say stop, drop and roll the eff out. Not worth it. Gonna hope that a high board score propels me to the top of some list, somewhere. I'm maintaining an optimistic attitude, but you probably shouldn't. So, retake the MCAT or do whatever you need to and go to a US school. You just don't need this extra grief man. PM me and I can give you more info.
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Ill be sure to send you applications for lab assistant positions then.
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Fact check:
It's right around 53% actually and the majority is in PC. However, definitely not impossible, just more difficult.
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Bless you.
Like,for that post. Or maybe you sneezed.
Either way, this is a good summary of why you shouldn't do offshore-even if it theoretically possible to succeed.
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So, I'm not disagreeing with you and there has to be some error in reporting these numbers, somewhere. The reason I say that is because, as an insider in the game, I see the people graduating. In fact, several of my friends are graduating with good residencies even in this years match. Would I repeat this path? Absolutely not. Not just because of the how we get portrayed in front of SOME PD's, or that I have effectively made it near impossible to get a competitive specialty in a top academic hospital, but because I didn't like the island living and being away from friends/family/SO. I'm just sayin, if 42% success rate = 800+ NOT matching per year that apply? There would be a WHOLE lot more pissed off ppl, and given that Ross gets federal funding through Title IV loans, there would also be some pissed off DoE regulators. Do I think it happens? Yea, sure. But do I think its grossly exaggerated on SDN? F**k yes.
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Ya, definitely not true that they have class sizes that big. 400 max!!! I was there for 5 semesters and no class ever exceeded 400. Also, another med school exists on that island called all-saints
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You figure that Ross gets roughly 1200 new students per year + 800 who matriculate off the island and go on to clinical semesters, at 22k a pop. Ya, it's a nice chunk of change. Also, devry owns AUC which would mean doubling that number bringing the total north of 200M on those two schools alone. Idk about chamberlain so I guess they cycle through more nurses...
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For every successful Carib grad you can cite, SDNers can also cite Carib grads who are Uber drivers, lab tech, s and Walmart workers.
You do realize that the Carib schools are under no obligation to be truthful? US advertising laws don't apply to them.
You do realize that the Carib schools are under no obligation to be truthful? US advertising laws don't apply to them.
