USC First Year Total Cost: $123,000.

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Cold Front

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At what cost will applicants stop applying to this program?

New grads make $100-120k first few years out of schools if they are lucky.

Dental education business is good for the financial industry more than the doctors they produce. A very secure investment for the lenders.

Members don't see this ad.
 
At what cost will applicants stop applying to this program?

New grads make $100-120k first few years out of schools if they are lucky.

Dental education business is good for the financial industry more than the doctors they produce. A very secure investment for the lenders.

I think you mean federal government :)

And yes, that is absolutely absurd and fueled entirely by the easy lending from...the federal government. See my thread titled:

'First Educational Pathway Costing 1 Million in Debt'
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=974639

I think the reason that USC increased the tuition is that the new loan rates are lower (they used to be ~7.35%; they are now ~5.4%).

Bat**** crazy.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
At what cost will applicants stop applying to this program?

New grads make $100-120k first few years out of schools if they are lucky.

Dental education business is good for the financial industry more than the doctors they produce. A very secure investment for the lenders.

Absolutely absurd. When will this stop? The ADA needs to intervene somehow.
 
Let the tuitions keep rising. Hopefully applicants will eventually get the idea and enrollment will drop or schools will close.

At least USC is an established school. It amazes me the schools like Western and the Midwesterns and their tuitions.
 
Those of you who are applying to USC or currently attending: would you comment on this thread?

thanx
 
More than all 4 yrs tuition for us at Baylor.
 
I've heard rumors of NYU's tuition increasing within the next couple of years as well.
 
I just interviewed here this cycle, the estimated COA for the class of 2018 was $444k factoring in tuition and fee increases. Needless to say, I knew it was high but my jaw dropped even further....


The option for everyone is basically to do the "pay as you earn" program (which is less than a year old and better than IBR) for 20 years at an effective rate of 9% of your income as this is the only way to manage this kind of debt.

You'll still be paying the taxes on the amount of loan that was forgiven with this program. So unless you are raking in the $$$, the amount you own in taxes will still burden you after your loan is forgiven.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Let me guess, they just casually tell you what the COA is, and say "most students have no problem paying back their loans"

I wonder how long it will be before no one attends here anymore because it's too expensive. Freaking crazy. What dollar will break the camel's back, so to speak?
 
Let me guess, they just casually tell you what the COA is, and say "most students have no problem paying back their loans"

I wonder how long it will be before no one attends here anymore because it's too expensive. Freaking crazy. What dollar will break the camel's back, so to speak?

As long as there is a strong demand for the DDS degree schools will have the applicants by the gonads.
 
The Return on Investment for dentists in training is continously declining with this high education debt, specially if you lack further skills to make it in the real world. Soon we will see a gap between poor dentists and well off dentists. Maybe that will make applicants have second thoughts about programs like USC.

I have colleagues who specialized after going to private dental programs, and now sit on $700-800k debt. Imagine what those numbers would look like for future grads in similar path.
 
The Return on Investment for dentists in training is continously declining with this high education debt, specially if you lack further skills to make it in the real world. Soon we will see a gap between poor dentists and well off dentists. Maybe that will make applicants have second thoughts about programs like USC.

I have colleagues who specialized after going to private dental programs, and now sit on $700-800k debt. Imagine what those numbers would look like for future grads in similar path.

Cold Front,

I have discussed very similar numbers before on SDN for the cost of specializing in dentistry. Would you talk a bit about your friends' experiences with that debt level? How are they faring? Are they using IBR/PAYE? Are they associating, going corporate? Setting up their own practice? What markets are they working in?

thanx
 
Cold Front,

I have discussed very similar numbers before on SDN for the cost of specializing in dentistry. Would you talk a bit about your friends' experiences with that debt level? How are they faring? Are they using IBR/PAYE? Are they associating, going corporate? Setting up their own practice? What markets are they working in?

thanx
I'm not sure how my former classmates pay their debt, or what repayment arrangements they have in place. But I recently talked to a former classmate who recently graduated from an ortho program earlier this year, and he and I haven't spoke for 3 years since we graduated from the same program.

In short, he now has $500-600k worth of debt, about $350k or so from dental school, and I think $150k or so from an ortho program, he accrued about $50k or so in interest over those years too. Not sure if he has any undergrad debt, credit card debts, etc. He was the one who brought up his debt numbers during the conversation and seemed that it was bothering him more than he thought before he got into dentistry.

He is now an associate for another orthodontist, who can't guarantee his base salary. He makes about $200k now, but that leaves him about $10-12k net after taxes. He is servicing his school related debt at a rate of $5k or so a month, which leaves him about $5-7k. I would imagine he lives modestly and saves about half of that, $2-3k a month.

One thing he is certain about is that ortho market is very brutal, and if he could do it all over again, financially speaking, he would not specialize, and would stick to general dentistry.

The debt is a big psychological burden on all current and future graduates. It is now more than ever, a big factor on what type of dentistry you wish to limit yourself to for a good return on your educational investment.
 
I'm not sure how my former classmates pay their debt, or what repayment arrangements they have in place. But I recently talked to a former classmate who recently graduated from an ortho program earlier this year, and he and I haven't spoke for 3 years since we graduated from the same program.

In short, he now has $500-600k worth of debt, about $350k or so from dental school, and I think $150k or so from an ortho program, he accrued about $50k or so in interest over those years too. Not sure if he has any undergrad debt, credit card debts, etc. He was the one who brought up his debt numbers during the conversation and seemed that it was bothering him more than he thought before he got into dentistry.

He is now an associate for another orthodontist, who can't guarantee his base salary. He makes about $200k now, but that leaves him about $10-12k net after taxes. He is servicing his school related debt at a rate of $5k or so a month, which leaves him about $5-7k. I would imagine he lives modestly and saves about half of that, $2-3k a month.

One thing he is certain about is that ortho market is very brutal, and if he could do it all over again, financially speaking, he would not specialize, and would stick to general dentistry.

The debt is a big psychological burden on all current and future graduates. It is now more than ever, a big factor on what type of dentistry you wish to limit yourself to for a good return on your educational investment.

Wow, interesting anecdote.
Do you know if his associate position provides any benefits? Also, what part of the country does he practice in?

thanx again, cold
 
As it turns out, I actually emailed the USC admissions office earlier this year re: their obscene cost of attendance. Here are my inquiry and their response.

"Hello USC School of Dentistry Office of Admissions,

I am a prospective applicant to your school. I was looking at the financials of attending and, to be honest, they are quite frightening. I do not have any previous undergrad debt (lucky!), but I calculated that I would owe ~500K after graduating from USC (if accepted, of course) after interest (average of 7.4%). I am interested in specializing, too, but it looks like if I were accepted to a program such as Ortho at USC I would end up owing 900K after interest. My question is, how do students handle these payments? I am aware that a private dentist can draw a fairly comfortable income, but these loan amounts are frightening, if not potentially life-crippling. To be honest, I am having second thoughts about pursuing dentistry as a career because these loans will literally take a lifetime to pay off--and that's not even including buying a practice or a home. If you could give me some sincere and honest feedback on how most new graduates are handling this, and how reasonable it is to pay off these amounts in the current marketplace I would appreciate it.

Thanks so much"

Response (I won't say from whom):

"Considering I have a limited amount of information about your current academic standing, below is a link that may be an option for you

Income Base Repayment
http://studentaid.ed.gov/repay-loans/understand/plans/income-based"
 
As it turns out, I actually emailed the USC admissions office earlier this year re: their obscene cost of attendance. Here are my inquiry and their response.

"Hello USC School of Dentistry Office of Admissions,

I am a prospective applicant to your school. I was looking at the financials of attending and, to be honest, they are quite frightening. I do not have any previous undergrad debt (lucky!), but I calculated that I would owe ~500K after graduating from USC (if accepted, of course) after interest (average of 7.4%). I am interested in specializing, too, but it looks like if I were accepted to a program such as Ortho at USC I would end up owing 900K after interest. My question is, how do students handle these payments? I am aware that a private dentist can draw a fairly comfortable income, but these loan amounts are frightening, if not potentially life-crippling. To be honest, I am having second thoughts about pursuing dentistry as a career because these loans will literally take a lifetime to pay off--and that's not even including buying a practice or a home. If you could give me some sincere and honest feedback on how most new graduates are handling this, and how reasonable it is to pay off these amounts in the current marketplace I would appreciate it.

Thanks so much"

Response (I won't say from whom):

"Considering I have a limited amount of information about your current academic standing, below is a link that may be an option for you

Income Base Repayment
http://studentaid.ed.gov/repay-loans/understand/plans/income-based"
One thing USC will never tell their applicants is - their tuition always rises 4-5% every year. Which means next year's first year total cost of attendance will hit $128-130k a year, $135k the year after, and $140k the year after that. In 4-5 years, it will be at least 20% higher than today's numbers.
 
As it turns out, I actually emailed the USC admissions office earlier this year re: their obscene cost of attendance. Here are my inquiry and their response.

"Hello USC School of Dentistry Office of Admissions,

I am a prospective applicant to your school. I was looking at the financials of attending and, to be honest, they are quite frightening. I do not have any previous undergrad debt (lucky!), but I calculated that I would owe ~500K after graduating from USC (if accepted, of course) after interest (average of 7.4%). I am interested in specializing, too, but it looks like if I were accepted to a program such as Ortho at USC I would end up owing 900K after interest. My question is, how do students handle these payments? I am aware that a private dentist can draw a fairly comfortable income, but these loan amounts are frightening, if not potentially life-crippling. To be honest, I am having second thoughts about pursuing dentistry as a career because these loans will literally take a lifetime to pay off--and that's not even including buying a practice or a home. If you could give me some sincere and honest feedback on how most new graduates are handling this, and how reasonable it is to pay off these amounts in the current marketplace I would appreciate it.

Thanks so much"

Response (I won't say from whom):

"Considering I have a limited amount of information about your current academic standing, below is a link that may be an option for you

Income Base Repayment
http://studentaid.ed.gov/repay-loans/understand/plans/income-based"

Silent, I have a question if you don't mind my asking. Are you currently an applicant or just observing the field. Your handle says that you joined in 2005, you ask a lot about debt and practice acquisition, but you don't sound like you are even in the application cycle. So what's your status?
 
Silent, I have a question if you don't mind my asking. Are you currently an applicant or just observing the field. Your handle says that you joined in 2005, you ask a lot about debt and practice acquisition, but you don't sound like you are even in the application cycle. So what's your status?

Thats funny, I asked him the exact same thing via PM...I think it might be an interesting thread if he choses to explain his background.
 
Thats funny, I asked him the exact same thing via PM...I think it might be an interesting thread if he choses to explain his background.

Elucidating his status is akin to capturing a perfectly focused photo of Bigfoot or nessie.

Some have speculated he is or was a dental student, saw the light, and is now a physician.

I submit that he is the rabble rousing alter ego of doc toothache.
 
this may be going off topic and really random question, but do dentists from these expensive schools have a hard time getting married bc they have so much debt on an insane level.
 
They actually made it clear during the financial aid presentation during the interview, the $444k was factoring in tuition and fee increases through 2018.
I was not talking D1 to D4 years fee hikes, I was comparing today's incoming D1 fees to next year's D1 total cost of attendance. Every year is a new fiscal year, and the highest cost goes to the incoming class - as they face fee hikes for all 4 years, as oppose to D2's that face hikes for just 3 years.

The house always wins.
 
Thats funny, I asked him the exact same thing via PM...I think it might be an interesting thread if he choses to explain his background.

Well, what strikes me as curious is that if he did join 8 years ago and has been considering dentistry the whole time, he could have finished dental school twice already, if he really wanted to go. I think he is a positive contributor and in general I like his posts, but they almost invariably concentrate on student loans and specialization. Important as these topics are, there really isn't much he could do as a predent other than going to the cheapest school he gets accepted to and waiting until he's in school to find out whether he specializes. Too much dissection and analysis can be negative just as neglect on the other end of the spectrum.
 
Absolutely absurd. When will this stop? The ADA needs to intervene somehow.

:laugh:

Just wait and see how much the ADA really does for you once you graduate...
 
Thats funny, I asked him the exact same thing via PM...I think it might be an interesting thread if he choses to explain his background.

I seem to remember in earlier posts that you can't see anymore 'Silent Cool' was a dental student and left dental school prior to graduating. The individual now posts in nearly all the forums on SDN concentrating on debt and 'excitable' topics.

Here I found a post indicating he/she decided to leave dental school..

Silent%2520Cool%2520selling%2520dental%2520equipment.JPG
 
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I seem to remember in earlier posts that you can't see anymore 'Silent Cool' was a dental student and left dental school prior to graduating. The individual now posts in nearly all the forums on SDN concentrating on debt and 'excitable' topics.

Here I found a post indicating he/she decided to leave dental school..

Silent%2520Cool%2520selling%2520dental%2520equipment.JPG

Good find Toronto, I suppose this kind of answers my curiosity.
 
Silent cool was a dental student who is now in medical school. Dentistry is not for everyone.
 
Silent cool was a dental student who is now in medical school. Dentistry is not for everyone.

That's fine and I have no problems with that, but why not just come out and say so?
 
Silent cool was a dental student who is now in medical school. Dentistry is not for everyone.

looking at my preps make me wanna join the bandwagon and go to medical school

I'd rather choose to take a science exam over a carving/dentsim/typodont session anyday

hopefully i'll get better and change my mind but who knows?
 
Silent cool was a dental student who is now in medical school. Dentistry is not for everyone.

Well, it looks like medical school may not my be ideal either. Sitting behind a computer this individuals drive appears to be fiscal in nature...

Silent%2520cool%2520quiting%2520med%2520school.JPG
 
Well, it looks like medical school may not my be ideal either. Sitting behind a computer this individuals drive appears to be fiscal in nature...

Silent%2520cool%2520quiting%2520med%2520school.JPG

I don't really have any issues with that. Medicine, like many other professional fields, pay the bills. I don't blame people for not wanting to be pediatricians, given their choices, just like I would not fault anyone who takes over their fathers practice rather than working for a public health clinic. Finances impact everyone's decision making process - lets be real.
 
this may be going off topic and really random question, but do dentists from these expensive schools have a hard time getting married bc they have so much debt on an insane level.
I'm sure it depends. It probably drives off the gold diggers who are into you for the dentist money, but I'm sure plenty of people with a ton of debt get married. It would actually help a lot if your spouse worked too and you could put most of your income towards debt while they mainly support cost of living.
 
I don't know, but I imagine when dental salaries drop back down to levels closer to their historic norm the schools will have a more difficult time selling spots. I'm still going on the assumption that the $50K bump in mean salary (2009 inflation corrected dollars) experienced in the last couple decades is fueling demand for seats. As dentist : population ratios begin to increase for the first time in many years, and relative demand for services decreases, I imagine the tuition increases will more closely match inflation. This might not take as long as one might think given the introduction of mid-levels and recent accreditation of foreign dental schools.

I guess demand for seats could, in theory, never go down if the unemployment rate for college graduates remains indefinitely high though. It'll be interesting to see how this turns out 10-15 years down the line.

I imagine the way to go about it if you want to go to a school priced like this would be to either go military or use the Pay As You Earn program the other guy mentioned.

10% on $190,000 for 20 years would be around $380,000 right? But only $19,000 a year (sort of like buying a new car every 12-18 months, except you don't get anything). That's not good by any stretch of the imagination, but if you like to play with teeth you could still be comfortable with what is basically just a higher (28%+9% = 36%?) effective tax rate on a six-figure income.
 
I don't know, but I imagine when dental salaries drop back down to levels closer to their historic norm the schools will have a more difficult time selling spots. I'm still going on the assumption that the $50K bump in mean salary (2009 inflation corrected dollars) experienced in the last couple decades is fueling demand for seats. As dentist : population ratios begin to increase for the first time in many years, and relative demand for services decreases, I imagine the tuition increases will more closely match inflation. This might not take as long as one might think given the introduction of mid-levels and recent accreditation of foreign dental schools.

I guess demand for seats could, in theory, never go down if the unemployment rate for college graduates remains indefinitely high though. It'll be interesting to see how this turns out 10-15 years down the line.

I imagine the way to go about it if you want to go to a school priced like this would be to either go military or use the Pay As You Earn program the other guy mentioned.

10% on $190,000 for 20 years would be around $380,000 right? But only $19,000 a year (sort of like buying a new car every 12-18 months, except you don't get anything). That's not good by any stretch of the imagination, but if you like to play with teeth you could still be comfortable with what is basically just a higher (28%+9% = 36%?) effective tax rate on a six-figure income.

Do you have any sources to support that the dentist : population ratio is increasing or that relative demand for services is decreasing? The baby boomer dentists are going to need to retire or die at some point, the other baby boomers are getting old and have more teeth than ever before, there was a contraction of dental grads from the 80s to the 00s, and the US population is still growing. Also I find it very interesting how much sky is falling mentality is going on around SDN, is everyone here from SoCal and NYC? Lol I go to school in the midwest (only dental school in state) and our grads are doing quite well. Dentists are often visiting looking for associates. Just a glance at our career placement website has a bunch of practices who are looking for help (yes mostly rural).
 
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At what cost will applicants stop applying to this program?

New grads make $100-120k first few years out of schools if they are lucky.

Dental education business is good for the financial industry more than the doctors they produce. A very secure investment for the lenders.

You're a complete idiot to attend USC or any dental school at that cost. That's atrocious and a disservice to ignorant students. I understand that most Californians never leave and most start out at wages at, or near a hygienist's salary.
 
There is not much evidence to support your argument that salaries drop in any given profession. What usually occurs is stagnation; which, may result in a decrease in salary in real, but not nominal, terms.
 
Silent, I have a question if you don't mind my asking. Are you currently an applicant or just observing the field. Your handle says that you joined in 2005, you ask a lot about debt and practice acquisition, but you don't sound like you are even in the application cycle. So what's your status?


Sorry, I haven't visited this thread for a bit.

Yes, I left dental school for medical school. Some days I regret that choice and others I think it was wise. Out-of-control costs have distorted my views of what I thought was a good profession. My situation is complicated as are my reasons but, suffice it to say, I am deeply opposed to federal intervention in the marketplace (an 'overhaul' if you will). That is the reason for the hyperinflated tuition that burdens current students of higher education--in essence, a complete disconnect between the market and the costs to enter it, given the potential rewards for a typical dental graduate.

Dental students, as far as I can tell, suffer from the most inflated tuition prices. 700-800K to specialize in dentistry? This will result in the proliferation of corporate dentistry because students will not reasonably be able to open their own practices, or they will simply decide the efforts are 'not worth it' in light of their academic debt.

Check out the total cost of attendance at UPENN dental school back in the 60's:
http://www.archives.upenn.edu/histy/features/tuition/1960.html

Now, adjust it for inflation:
http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

Do that and you will realize the absurdity of the current costs--as I said, a complete disconnect between the market and the costs to enter it. All of this is the result of massive federal government intrusion into the market.

It makes me furious because I am part of a generation that is paying for it--through no fault of my/our own. There is nothing that I or anyone else can do about it. The best option for any prospective dent student is, frankly, to move to Texas, cross your fingers and hope for the best. There was in fact a thread started by someone who was accepted to NYU Dent. and did just that--pass up the absurd cost of NYU, move to Texas, and apply to school there once a resident.

If only I had a crystal ball :cool:
 
I don't know, but I imagine when dental salaries drop back down to levels closer to their historic norm the schools will have a more difficult time selling spots. I'm still going on the assumption that the $50K bump in mean salary (2009 inflation corrected dollars) experienced in the last couple decades is fueling demand for seats. As dentist : population ratios begin to increase for the first time in many years, and relative demand for services decreases, I imagine the tuition increases will more closely match inflation. This might not take as long as one might think given the introduction of mid-levels and recent accreditation of foreign dental schools.

I guess demand for seats could, in theory, never go down if the unemployment rate for college graduates remains indefinitely high though. It'll be interesting to see how this turns out 10-15 years down the line.

I imagine the way to go about it if you want to go to a school priced like this would be to either go military or use the Pay As You Earn program the other guy mentioned.

10% on $190,000 for 20 years would be around $380,000 right? But only $19,000 a year (sort of like buying a new car every 12-18 months, except you don't get anything). That's not good by any stretch of the imagination, but if you like to play with teeth you could still be comfortable with what is basically just a higher (28%+9% = 36%?) effective tax rate on a six-figure income.

^^This
 
This is a fun thread to read. Here's some background on me. I graduated from USC last May. Like most people here I was blown away by the costs associated with USC. The best part of the interview is when our Financial Aid guy gets up and tells you you'll be paying about $1.2M dollars to attend after all interest is added up after a 20 year payback.

I offer a couple of solutions to the issue:

1) Pay-as-you-earn payback along with public service. This is how a lot of med students pay for their school because of one simply truth, your residency/internship usually counts toward the 10 year payback requred. Similar situation in dentistry, if you do a residency at a hospital you can usually count those years, then just work a bit longer at the hospital and your loans are forgiven at year 10 with no tax implactions.

2) Military. This is the route I went. USC was 100% free for me. I did take out a small amount of loans to help pay for living expenses in LA (the Army gave me $2000 a month, not quite enough for LA when you're married). The other plus to the military is I'm working and not stressed at all. If my patient doesn't show up, no worries, I'm not production based. If I decide to do a composite instead of an indirect restoration, no problem, becasue again, not production based.

The other nice thing about the military is that the compensation for a dentist really is quite nice. My pretax salary is about 85k (of which about 20k is tax free). When you factor the benefits of the military (tax savings, no loans to pay back, free healthcare, great retirement plan that requres no contribution from me) my "effective" salary is over 100k.


I am in no way defending the cost of USC and I can't say that you get what you pay for, but what I can say is that USC is somewhat justified in its costs. The cost of having a dental school with the name USC in front of it requires a large sum of money paid to the "main campus" per student each year. Also, the clinic at USC is huge (not in space but in scope). I did not like the way that the clinic was run and I felt the requirement system that USC used when I was there was out-dated and flawed, but I can say that I left USC (barely on time, I might add) as a clinician that is leagues above other dental school's clinicians (not every school, but many). This is 100% because of how much work we had to do to graduate. Doing all of that clinical work costs an absurd amount of money and in order to get patients the costs to the patient must be subsidized by tuition. This is the sad fact of dental schools. Many of the lower cost schools have to sacrifice the amount of patients they can see and there by sacrifice the amount of work that they can require.

If you have any questions about USC or about ways to do dental school 100% free let me know.
 
I should also add, I am in no way a cheerleader for USC. I was not happy with the school while I attended and the only saving grace in my mind is that, through no help from the school, we do leave the school as decent clinicians. My answers to questions will be as candid and honest as possible.
 

Earnings tend to have a resilience about them that are not effected in the same way as the price of individual products. Stagnation of dental earnings may occur, which would result in a lower income in real terms, but there is not a lot out there to support a huge correction in nominal terms. If this "bump" has lasted several decades it's probably here to stay.

Having said that - I completely agree with what you said regarding the role of the federal government in rising tuition.
 
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