Univ. of Florida or Dartmouth?

[steph90]

Hello All,

I need some help/input in deciding between the University of Florida and Dartmouth. I am from Florida and all my family lives there but I prefer the northern climate and am interested in research. I am also an entrepreneur and would like to continue my work with tech startups, ultimately leveraging that with medicine.
Any input is greatly appreciated!

UF
Pros
+ Great, supportive faculty and staff
+ Brand new classroom/lab facilities
+ Close to home (I'm from FL)

Cons
- Weather (I don't like the heat/constant humidity)
- Lack of Engineering/BME research opportunities

Dartmouth
Pros
+ Research/collaboration opportunities with Tuck School of Business and Thayer School of Engineering
+ Name recognition "opens doors"
+ Possibly pursue an MBA (been thinking about it, not positive)
+ Cold
+ Older student body (I'm 3 yrs out of college)
+ Smaller, more intimate campus environment

Cons
- Middle of nowhere, far from family
- Old classroom/lab facilities
- More expensive

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[NeuResurgens]

I would personally pick UF, but it sounds like you might think Dartmouth fits your goals a little bit better.

 

[Neutropix]

I'd go to Dartmouth in case of the MBA pursuit, which I am still considering myself.

Connections go a long ways in business..

 

[LSD-25]

Dartmouth if you can handle the brutal icy winters.

 

[Warderino92]

I graduated from FL, and Shands is a beautiful medical school with plenty of opportunities to do research. You can't go wrong with either school.

 

[steph90]

Thank you all so much for your responses....I just can't decide if my thinking is being clouded by the Dartmouth name. While it's a great school, is it really better than UF? It might be an "ivy" but the med school isn't on the same level as the other "ivys". But, their match list does seem stronger than UF's

 

[ConsultantMD]

Ok super biased as I'm headed to Dartmouth. I was deciding ultimately between Miami and Dartmouth. I am also considering an MBA so Dartmouth wins there since Tuck is a top program. The thing about med school rankings is that they're a little skewed right? I'll admit Dartmouth has a name due to its undergraduate school, but it has a legacy of research and putting out impressive work as one of the nation's oldest schools. Considering it is a small private school I would say its ranking is great. Public schools get lots of funding for being public, other schools have tons of faculty and partnerships with large hospitals. Dartmouth is never going to be able to have what Harvard or Yale has, there just isn't the population there to support that need (presumably in NH), but is that such a bad thing? Judging by the match lists from previous years the Dartmouth, you and your classmates are in good company. Admittedly another decision pint for me was the cost since Miami offered all loans and Dartmouth did not. Good luck deciding and feel free to PM me too!

 

[einsteinm]

Personally, I'd go Dartmouth. Name does matter for residency.

 

[wegotthis14]

Take this with a grain of salt, as I'm not too informed on the matter, but an MS3 told me he decided against attending Dartmouth because it didn't offer particularly good clinical experience. He said the patient population was limited in terms of diversity and that if he had gone there, he would not have been exposed to as much as he is at the school he matriculated to. I don't know how it compares to UF.

 

[alpinism]

Just remember that the Dartmouth name for medical school is not on the same level as the undergrad.

Its basically on the same level as UF (both are solid upper mid tier research schools).

The huge down side for Dartmouth is their lack of a large and diverse patient population.

On the plus side if you're interested in dual degrees or health policy they have great programs there.

 

[Bonebro]

Name matters to some degree for residency, Dartmouth and UF are comparable enough that it's not going to make a difference in that regard.

Personally, I'd go Dartmouth. Name does matter for residency.

 

[einsteinm]

Name matters to some degree for residency, Dartmouth and UF are comparable enough that it's not going to make a difference in that regard.

You're probably right. However, if you take a look at top residency programs, all you see are people from IVY undergrad, IVY med, IVY residency. They take their own.

 

[Bonebro]

You're probably right. However, if you take a look at top residency programs, all you see are people from IVY undergrad, IVY med, IVY residency. They take their own.

This is definitely true about the ivy's. But I think they're an extreme example of inbreeding and being pedigree ******. Having come from a small no name state school I think it definitely decreased the number of interviews I got, because on some of my aways they didn't even know we were an MD program or that our state even had a medical school. The difference between where I went and Dartmouth is going to make a difference in name, UF vs. Dartmouth not so much.

All that being said we matched people into Harvard and other ivy's with multiple people getting interviews in competitive specialties at ivy's only to rank these programs lower than where they matched.

 

[tiedyeddog]

Thank you all so much for your responses....I just can't decide if my thinking is being clouded by the Dartmouth name. While it's a great school, is it really better than UF? It might be an "ivy" but the med school isn't on the same level as the other "ivys". But, their match list does seem stronger than UF's

Dartmouths prestige is mostly related to its undergrad and not the medical school. It's a fine medical school but the undergrad is more prestigious that the medical school.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Moving to SSD

 

[Mr Interesting]

You're probably right. However, if you take a look at top residency programs, all you see are people from IVY undergrad, IVY med, IVY residency. They take their own.

There's such things as ivy med schools and ivy residencies? Hmm....

 

[einsteinm]

There's such things as ivy med schools and ivy residencies? Hmm....

You know exactly what I mean...

 

[steph90]

Very true that the Dartmouth prestige comes from the undergraduate school but it does seem that some of it does carry over into the medical school, warranted or not.
My biggest concerns are whether I can get the same quality residency spot coming from UF and if I could do the same type of BME research at UF that I could at Dartmouth. I know it's possible of course but probably just harder...

 

[Shams al Deen]

Very true that the Dartmouth prestige comes from the undergraduate school but it does seem that some of it does carry over into the medical school, warranted or not.
My biggest concerns are whether I can get the same quality residency spot coming from UF and if I could do the same type of BME research at UF that I could at Dartmouth. I know it's possible of course but probably just harder...

Basically everyone you interact with will be much more impressed with Dartmouth than UF, including premeds and most med students/docs. In the eyes of academics and residency directors though, I doubt there is much of a difference as both are well-respected, above average MD schools. It comes down to the lay prestige that Dartmouth offers vs. family and weather, so I voted UF.

Edit: Also, when looking at the match list of UF, take into account the fact that UF consists of mostly in-state Florida students, many of whom probably want to stay in Florida rather than chase 'prestigious' programs in the northeast.

 

[slightlygifted]

Lol unless you are doing MD/PhD or something do you really think you will have that much time to do extensive BME research? Do research over the summers at the best BME institution in the world if you want to do it so badly, but during the school year I don't think you will be doing much either way. I'd say go wherever is cheaper and closer to family/friends.

 

[tiedyeddog]

Very true that the Dartmouth prestige comes from the undergraduate school but it does seem that some of it does carry over into the medical school, warranted or not.
My biggest concerns are whether I can get the same quality residency spot coming from UF and if I could do the same type of BME research at UF that I could at Dartmouth. I know it's possible of course but probably just harder...

That prestige does not carry over to the medical school. What are you basing that off of? It does not get name recognition when applying to residency programs like top 20 schools do.

 

[ConsultantMD]

That prestige does not carry over to the medical school. What are you basing that off of? It does not get name recognition when applying to residency programs like top 20 schools do.

My basis : Have you seen their match list? California is one of the most common match states and it's hard to match there apparently. Also 10-20% of the class matches to a Harvard hospital each year. Many stay at Dartmouth as well admittedly.

How do you know that it doesn't carry over? What are you basing it on? I'm guessing there's some regional bias as well but the fact that California is a popular residency state kind of debunks that idea. How can a school that's been around since the end of the 1700's not have some sort of legacy and recognition?

Of course I'm very biased but still...

 

[tiedyeddog]

My basis : Have you seen their match list? California is one of the most common match states and it's hard to match there apparently. Also 10-20% of the class matches to a Harvard hospital each year. Many stay at Dartmouth as well admittedly.

How do you know that it doesn't carry over? What are you basing it on? I'm guessing there's some regional bias as well but the fact that California is a popular residency state kind of debunks that idea. How can a school that's been around since the end of the 1700's not have some sort of legacy and recognition?

Of course I'm very biased but still...

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-medical-schools/research-rankings/page 2
https://geiselmed.dartmouth.edu/admissions/medical-education-at-geisel/residency-matches/

It is barely above UF in the rankings, the hospital at Dartmouth just isn't known to be a top-tier medical center like a MGH, UCSF, etc.

The "harvard" thing really isn't that impressive... only 13 are at Mass Gen., with 2 of those at Mass Gen being surgery prelim years. The others are at BI, BWH, and others are only affiliates. Not that BI or BWH are bad places to train, they just aren't Mass Gen. You have to consider people going to Dartmouth, a northeastern school, are probably going to want to stay in the northeast for residency so there is a huge regional bias there. That match list really isn't that great, if you look at "UCSF" there is actually only one person of the 16 that actually matched at UCSF. The other 15 are affiliate programs....

There are tons schools that have California matches. How much of the Dartmouth class is composed of Californians? I bet it is not an insignificant number and a lot of those people want to go back to cali.

Also, UF is 32,000 a year while Dartmouth is 56,000 a year. That is almost a 100K difference over 4 years.

 

[steph90]

In primary care, Dartmouth is 29 while UF is 78 (not sure how much that matters when compared to the research rankings)....are the match results really just a reflection of regional bias, though? Or is it truly harder to get a spot in the northeast when coming from UF? If it is just regional bias (meaning that students from UF just want to stay in Florida anyways), that's great but, given that I want to end up in the northeast, I don't want to make that goal much harder by choosing a southern school.

 

[technician]

I'm not familiar with UF, but I would choose UF. You'll need familial support and there is nothing in Hanover in terms of entertainment, unless you're a big hiker. There are like three bars, and the winters are horrendous! What is there for entrepeneurs in Hanover? Aside from the research that is at the school, I can't think of much. Further, the curriculum isn't really completely rehauled yet, only like 1/2 way. And the patient population is not diverse at all... However, the hospital IS beautiful at Dartmouth. Good luck!

 

[tiedyeddog]

In primary care, Dartmouth is 29 while UF is 78 (not sure how much that matters when compared to the research rankings)....are the match results really just a reflection of regional bias, though? Or is it truly harder to get a spot in the northeast when coming from UF? If it is just regional bias (meaning that students from UF just want to stay in Florida anyways), that's great but, given that I want to end up in the northeast, I don't want to make that goal much harder by choosing a southern school.

ok you obviously want to go to Dartmouth, just go there.

 

[Copernicium]

ok you obviously want to go to Dartmouth, just go there.

Sounds like OP just wants us to justify choosing Dartmouth

UF
Cons
- Lack of Engineering/BME research opportunities

Dartmouth
Pros
+ Research/collaboration opportunities with Tuck School of Business and Thayer School of Engineering

Since you like rankings so much, UF's engineering ranking is about 20 spots higher than Dartmouth's, which I suspect won't even matter since you probably won't have time to do significant research in engineering anyways

Edit: Also, when looking at the match list of UF, take into account the fact that UF consists of mostly in-state Florida students, many of whom probably want to stay in Florida rather than chase 'prestigious' programs in the northeast.

Also, literally half of their med school class is made up of UF undergrads, so of course most will want to stay in the area. They love it there

 

[steph90]

Thank you all very much for your responses. I really, really appreciate it.

 

[Mr Interesting]

That prestige does not carry over to the medical school. What are you basing that off of? It does not get name recognition when applying to residency programs like top 20 schools do.

Didn't you hear? There are Ivy med schools now

Just giving you a hard time @einsteinm . Don't take it personally.

Going to Dartmouth is not going to give you any kind of edge over the students going to UF. OP, it does appear you want to go to Dartmouth so go there if you will truly be happier there.

And for those who keep bringing up match lists, I suggest you do a thorough search on why that is a bad idea as a pre-med. And since I'm in a giving mood I'll start your search off with this thread (please pay close attention to the wise words of @Law2Doc):

How to evaluate/compare match lists among different schools?

 

[ConsultantMD]

So ok match lists aside... Here's a study that Einstein put out about a new model to base rankings. It uses the medical schools' graduates ability to secure NIH funding and high impact articles, not the schools' faculty.

http://journals.lww.com/academicmed...op_Research_Medical_School__A_Call.98873.aspx

It is interesting that there are so few public schools on this list, but still... Look who's on this list. End of my self-defense.

 

[Law2Doc]

So ok match lists aside... Here's a study that Einstein put out about a new model to base rankings. It uses the medical schools' graduates ability to secure NIH funding and high impact articles, not the schools' faculty.

http://journals.lww.com/academicmed...op_Research_Medical_School__A_Call.98873.aspx

It is interesting that there are so few public schools on this list, but still... Look who's on this list. End of my self-defense.

Meh. Really self serving methodology -- many/most of the best graduates will never apply for NIH funding, or write many high impact articles because they won't be going into academia. Those arent good yardsticks because they arent goals of most doctors not working at large academic institutions. A program that cranks out the top private practice orthopedists and ENTs and urologists and dermatologists, for example could come in dead last based on this methodology. You HAVE TO focus on the schools faculty because that's here the education comes from. You can be an amazingly successful grad but not go into academia, and that shouldn't really be deemed a bad thing, so it's just a flawed concept from the get go. My bet is Eintein ran a few permutations and this one was the one that benefitted them most. Real measures of value are within a schools control, not achieved based on their devalued view of other school grads career choices.

 

[ConsultantMD]

Meh. Really self serving methodology -- many/most of the best graduates will never apply for NIH funding, or write many high impact articles because they won't be going into academia. Those arent good yardsticks because they arent goals of most doctors not working at large academic institutions. A program that cranks out the top private practice orthopedists and ENTs and urologists and dermatologists, for example could come in dead last based on this methodology. You HAVE TO focus on the schools faculty because that's here the education comes from. You can be an amazingly successful grad but not go into academia, and that shouldn't really be deemed a bad thing, so it's just a flawed concept from the get go. My bet is Eintein ran a few permutations and this one was the one that benefitted them most. Real measures of value are within a schools control, not achieved based on their devalued view of other school grads career choices.

So the whole point of the study is to more accurately describe the top RESEARCH programs since that was people seem to fixate on with USNWR. The goal isn't to determine where will produce the best private practice specialists. Will this be the next set of rankings?

I agree it's probably self serving... Just had to find the right study that puts them on top.

 

[Law2Doc]

So the whole point of the study is to more accurately describe the top RESEARCH programs since that was people seem to fixate on with USNWR. The goal isn't to determine where will produce the best private practice specialists. Will this be the next set of rankings?

I agree it's probably self serving... Just had to find the right study that puts them on top.

Well, the US News ranking factors in research as a loose proxy for Prestige, which may or may not translate to quality. If you focus on the career choice of a subsegment of your class you don't even have that. The goal if a ranking should be to rank what places give the best education regardless of career path, and set people up to achieve in multiple directions, since frankly you don't know where you want to end up coming out of college. this necessarily requires some questionable assumptions. But if you throw even those out to say, this schools 10% who go into academics generated more grant money than school Y's 10%, you ignore the 90% that actually reflects the educational value.

 

[Shams al Deen]

Meh. Really self serving methodology -- many/most of the best graduates will never apply for NIH funding, or write many high impact articles because they won't be going into academia. Those arent good yardsticks because they arent goals of most doctors not working at large academic institutions. A program that cranks out the top private practice orthopedists and ENTs and urologists and dermatologists, for example could come in dead last based on this methodology. You HAVE TO focus on the schools faculty because that's here the education comes from. You can be an amazingly successful grad but not go into academia, and that shouldn't really be deemed a bad thing, so it's just a flawed concept from the get go. My bet is Eintein ran a few permutations and this one was the one that benefitted them most. Real measures of value are within a schools control, not achieved based on their devalued view of other school grads career choices.

Well don't many people on SDN argue that the reputation of your medical school only matters when going into academia? This list is basically telling you which 25 schools have strongest track record of producing the best academic physicians. So I'd say these rankings tell you all you want to know if you're looking for a school that will allow you to have a great career in academics. Some schools may close the door on academia (like some DO schools probably) and some schools will make it a very uphill battle (low ranked MD schools). However, you can rest assured that a school on that list will put you in a good position to have a career in academics.

 

[Law2Doc]

Well don't many people on SDN argue that the reputation of your medical school only matters when going into academia? This list is basically telling you which 25 schools have strongest track record of producing the best academic physicians. So I'd say these rankings tell you all you want to know if you're looking for a school that will allow you to have a great career in academics. Some schools may close the door on academia (like some DO schools probably) and some schools will make it a very uphill battle (low ranked MD schools). However, you can rest assured that a school on that list will put you in a good position to have a career in academics.

Disagree that the goal of a ranking is for the tiny minority. I do think where you go marginally matters for academia but far far far less than people magnify it on SDN. Most of your prestige value comes from residency and fellowship. However to the extent you want to use a ranking, what matters is being taught by a top rate physician not having one guy in your class who you thought was a dweeb go on to become one.

 

[Earl Simmons]

UF!

 

[vfishy101]

I graduated from FL, and Shands is a beautiful medical school with plenty of opportunities to do research. You can't go wrong with either school.

i'm thinking of going to uf for premed. concerning research opportunities/gaining clinical experience, i understand with uf that theres intense competition for spots at shands. i also got into uva. ignoring money, because that is not a problem for me, would it be better to go to uva? i understand they have more research opportunities. also, what did you major in at uf when you were studying premed, where did you go to med school, is uf you in state school, and how do you think uf helped you? thank you!

 

[Welshman]

i'm thinking of going to uf for premed. concerning research opportunities/gaining clinical experience, i understand with uf that theres intense competition for spots at shands. i also got into uva. ignoring money, because that is not a problem for me, would it be better to go to uva? i understand they have more research opportunities. also, what did you major in at uf when you were studying premed, where did you go to med school, is uf you in state school, and how do you think uf helped you? thank you!

It's often hard to get responses from someone who posted a comment almost 2 years ago...

also pro-tip: avoid saying "ignoring money, because that is not a problem for me" it tends to come off a certain, undesirable way