UIC Chicago vs. Dartmouth (Geisel)

[whataremychancetherapper]

Hi all,

I'm an Illinois resident looking at choosing between UIC and Geisel.

Geisel
Pros

• Better ranked program, easier to stand out since Geisel is the only medical school in the area
• Superior training

Cons

• Hanover is pretty but it obviously isn't Chicago. Very far from home.
• Will be more expensive. Looking at something like $5-9k more per year. How big of a difference is that?

UIC Chicago
Pros

• Close to home and in Chicago, which is obviously a livelier area than Hanover
• Somewhat cheaper

Cons

• Lower ranked program
• In my (admittedly novice) estimation, it seems like standing out in Chicago is much harder since there are so many medical schools in the area, and UIC-Chicago is probably in the middle of that pack. I don't know if my estimation is true or not, though

Summary: Geisel is a better program but is more expensive (how significant?) and Chicago is closer to home/a nicer location.

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[watermelon master]

5-9k a year is insignificant and will be easy to pay off once your attending salary is 200k minimum +. Go where you would be most happy. Dartmouth looks like the best choice to me.

 

[slippydubloons]

Hi all,

I'm an Illinois resident looking at choosing between UIC and Geisel.

Geisel
Pros

• Better ranked program, easier to stand out since Geisel is the only medical school in the area
• Superior training

Cons

• Hanover is pretty but it obviously isn't Chicago. Very far from home.
• Will be more expensive. Looking at something like $5-9k more per year. How big of a difference is that?

UIC Chicago
Pros

• Close to home and in Chicago, which is obviously a livelier area than Hanover
• Somewhat cheaper

Cons

• Lower ranked program
• In my (admittedly novice) estimation, it seems like standing out in Chicago is much harder since there are so many medical schools in the area, and UIC-Chicago is probably in the middle of that pack. I don't know if my estimation is true or not, though

Summary: Geisel is a better program but is more expensive (how significant?) and Chicago is closer to home/a nicer location.

I don't think the total overall COA difference (20K - 40K it seems) over 4 years is necessarily something to worry about. Seems reasonable then to largely take cost out of the picture at this point.

From here, I'd probably recommend Geisel. Even if everything else between the two was exactly the same in quality (which it isn't), getting the chance to move somewhere and have a whole new living experience for 4 years is, IMO, absolutely worth it. New England is very different from the Midwest and I think you could grow from that.

The only thing I can really see here in UIC's favor (other than you potentially having family/friends there) is that Chicago is a huge urban center, and so you will likely be exposed to more a heterogeneous population during your undergraduate medical education. However, I don't really think that will play a huge difference as your main non-bread-and-butter learning will be in residency.

I would say Geisel mainly based on: new experiences, beautiful area of the world to live in for a few years, DHMC being a beacon in the whole region for interesting cases, likely a superior education

 

[ChicagoBear]

You are missing another con for UIC - they are implementing a new curriculum in the fall. Do you want to be a guinea pig?

 

[whataremychancetherapper]

You are missing another con for UIC - they are implementing a new curriculum in the fall. Do you want to be a guinea pig?

I've heard about this. Sorry if this sounds naive, but how much of an impact do you think changes like that can make? It's honestly so hard for me to tell from the outside what sorts of ramifications these changes have.

 

[efle]

1) love the username
2) I would ignore ~$7k/yr cost difference
3) these are in extremely, extremely different kinds of places, you really don't have a giant preference ??

 

[slippydubloons]

I've heard about this. Sorry if this sounds naive, but how much of an impact do you think changes like that can make? It's honestly so hard for me to tell from the outside what sorts of ramifications these changes have.

you will never know because you will only ever have the experience of 1 medical school curriculum (your own), but as it stands, curriculum changes are often fraught with confusion, mandatory and/or superfluous events that are wastes of your time, and disconnect between administration and students, *especially* in the first year of implementation

 

[ChicagoBear]

you will never know because you will only ever have the experience of 1 medical school curriculum (your own), but as it stands, curriculum changes are often fraught with confusion, mandatory and/or superfluous events that are wastes of your time, and disconnect between administration and students, *especially* in the first year of implementation

Many schools have recently changed their curriculums. As noted above, this just adds extra "risk" to the process. And sometimes schools mess it up - some of the recent LCME probation actions have come after a big curriculum change. SLU is the most recent victim.

 

[deev04]

Agree with the money not being a factor. I'd decide based on curricular factors (e.g. preclinical length/timing, board timing/prep, clinical sequence/timing, elective time) and opportunities (e.g. research, programs you might be interested in). Agree that they seem like very different schools, attracting different types of students so there might be a preference in there.

edit: also agree that DHMC being the only major medical center in the area/state might be a cool factor. Probably not a deciding one, but have heard from friends that being at a place that is the only game in town can have some cool perks in terms of community integration and opportunities (case diversity, pride community takes in institution's success, access and integration with local community, opportunities to start programs)

 

[whataremychancetherapper]

1) love the username
2) I would ignore ~$7k/yr cost difference
3) these are in extremely, extremely different kinds of places, you really don't have a giant preference ??

Regarding (3):

Yeah, I hear you. I guess there are two important things at play here: (a) I am a pretty adaptable person, so while I recognize the differences, I am not overwhelmed by either set. (b) The "unknown" aspect of medical school is what is preventing me from being like "okay yeah this is definitely the better option."

What I mean by that is that I do know that my lifestyle in Chicago would be "cooler" more to my preference. I guess I'll add some more personal information here (unfortunately) by saying that I attended a top school in New England for undergrad, so I do have somewhat of a feel for what New England is like (although Hanover is different from where I was). The trouble, of course, is that I recognize that Geisel affords a superior program to that of UIC, and so, as someone who hasn't yet gone to medical school, I don't know how heavily I should be weighing that. To me, it seems that people who are wiser and more experienced tell me that I should attend Geisel. Furthermore, it's not like I would have a miserable lifestyle at Dartmouth; the people there speak very highly of there experiences. It's more just that Chicago is so much closer to home/there are real difficulties associated with going so far away to an area that's hard to get in and out of.

 

[efle]

Are you looking to stay in Illinois/midwest for your residency and ever after? Are you aiming for a competitive specialty and/or an academic career or nah?

 

[watermelon master]

Regarding (3):

Yeah, I hear you. I guess there are two important things at play here: (a) I am a pretty adaptable person, so while I recognize the differences, I am not overwhelmed by either set. (b) The "unknown" aspect of medical school is what is preventing me from being like "okay yeah this is definitely the better option."

What I mean by that is that I do know that my lifestyle in Chicago would be "cooler" more to my preference. I guess I'll add some more personal information here (unfortunately) by saying that I attended a top school in New England for undergrad, so I do have somewhat of a feel for what New England is like (although Hanover is different from where I was). The trouble, of course, is that I recognize that Geisel affords a superior program to that of UIC, and so, as someone who hasn't yet gone to medical school, I don't know how heavily I should be weighing that. To me, it seems that people who are wiser and more experienced tell me that I should attend Geisel. Furthermore, it's not like I would have a miserable lifestyle at Dartmouth; the people there speak very highly of there experiences. It's more just that Chicago is so much closer to home/there are real difficulties associated with going so far away to an area that's hard to get in and out of.

You're clearly capable of leaving home and going to a new place and doing just fine. Medical school at Dartmouth would be the same. You would still be able to come home and visit family on holidays. When you were in New England, how did you feel about how often you went and visited home? TBH I think people overstate the importance of "being close to home and their support system" unless it literally means that you can go home whenever you want or your mom can literally drive over wheneever and bring you some cooked food.

How close is "close to home?" If it means that you would only go home during breaks anyways then why does it matter where the hell you are in the US if you're going to be home the same amount of times? If you picture yourself going to Dartmouth and being happy there, then I would choose it.

 

[whataremychancetherapper]

Are you looking to stay in Illinois/midwest for your residency and ever after? Are you aiming for a competitive specialty and/or an academic career or nah?

Great question. I think that, at this point in time, my hope is to return to Chicago for residency. My med student/resident friends have told me that this is perfectly possible (and perhaps more possible) if I attend Dartmouth, if only because I'll have leverage through prestige and family roots in the Chicago area. With that said, I am open to staying on the east coast (namely bigger city places like Boston or New York) for residency.

I have wondered about whether attending UIC would put me at a disadvantage because Chicago is so saturated (in that there are several other good/better medical schools). I imagine it might be harder to stand out. Is this a valid concern?

 

[whataremychancetherapper]

You're clearly capable of leaving home and going to a new place and doing just fine. Medical school at Dartmouth would be the same. You would still be able to come home and visit family on holidays. When you were in New England, how did you feel about how often you went and visited home? TBH I think people overstate the importance of "being close to home and their support system" unless it literally means that you can go home whenever you want or your mom can literally drive over wheneever and bring you some cooked food.

How close is "close to home?" If it means that you would only go home during breaks anyways then why does it matter where the hell you are in the US if you're going to be home the same amount of times? If you picture yourself going to Dartmouth and being happy there, then I would choose it.

This is insightful, thank you. I imagine I would definitely see my family more often if I went to UIC, but yes, as a medical student, I don't imagine that I would be going home every weekend (or even more than once a month). This is good food for thought, though. I appreciate your perspective.

 

[efle]

Great question. I think that, at this point in time, my hope is to return to Chicago for residency. My med student/resident friends have told me that this is perfectly possible (and perhaps more possible) if I attend Dartmouth, if only because I'll have leverage through prestige and family roots in the Chicago area. With that said, I am open to staying on the east coast (namely bigger city places like Boston or New York) for residency.

I have wondered about whether attending UIC would put me at a disadvantage because Chicago is so saturated (in that there are several other good/better medical schools). I imagine it might be harder to stand out. Is this a valid concern?

I have only ever heard good things about going to school near the residencies of interest, since it lets you do sub-Is and the residencies will be very familiar with your school/recommenders. I've never heard of worries about saturation. Dartmouth is a good school but not dripping with prestige like the undergrad (same for Brown/Alpert), if your goal is a Chicago-area residency and career I don't think you're harming your odds at all by going to UIC

 

[deev04]

Agree that UIC being in Chicago can only help (familiarity, research, frequent matches). Dartmouth is not dripping in prestige but has consistently put out some really nice looking match lists with some top tiers matches. UIC seems to also always send a few ppl to top spots. I know these lists are difficult to interpret, but given Dartmouth's size, their matches seem slightly stronger.

UIC definitely matches more to Chicago, but if you are not sure that you want to match to Chicago, I don't know how important this should be. If you end up going into something super competitive having the research opportunities of all of Chicago could be a plus, but research years are becoming more common (almost necessary for certain specialties) and those can be done anywhere. Counting on a residency in any region is also pretty much out of the question unless you are a superstar for these specialties. Even if you don't go into something super competitive, I hear a lot of stories of people being surprised by the programs they ended up liking and I see you mentioned being open to matching elsewhere on the east coast.

If you take matching to Chicago off the table, I can't see a clear advantage of UIC (or Dartmouth). They seem like very different schools. Are there not curricular aspects of one school that seem more appealing? The setup/timeline of rotations? Dartmouth has a much smaller class and is fairly non-trad heavy. Hanover is a pretty small, white town. Are you interested in urban, underserved medicine? You can do rotations in SF at Dartmouth, but that might be a tie-breaker. Were you able to go to second look? This decision seems like something that would come down to a lot of personal preferences and a general sense of "fit."

 

[belvita]

Dartmouth has a nice 5-year overview of their residency matches (from 2010-2014, so perhaps a bit outdated), and over those 5 years they matched 6 people into Chicago area residencies, of all specialties. Meanwhile, UIC matched 8 people into Feinberg's IM residency alone over the past 4 years (click on sidebar tabs to see each year). Undoubtedly, there are additionally UIC people matching into Rush, UChicago, and UIC (28 in 3 years) IM residencies as well.

To put the Feinberg matches in perspective, that's more people matching from UIC into a single specialty at a single, highly respected non-home Chicago institution in less time than people from Geisel matching into all Chicago resdencies. If you for sure want to stay in Chicago, play it safe and go to UIC. However, Dartmouth also presents a ton of matches at Harvard-affiliates and other Boston area hospitals, which is a great opportunity if you want to stay within academic medical institutions (you didn't specifically address that earlier).

Were you able to attend UIC second look? How did you like the people you met? I attended two second looks and they lent a lot of insight into what each school's student body was like - and I found them to be very different, one more to my liking than the other.

 

[whataremychancetherapper]

Dartmouth has a nice 5-year overview of their residency matches (from 2010-2014, so perhaps a bit outdated), and over those 5 years they matched 6 people into Chicago area residencies, of all specialties. Meanwhile, UIC matched 8 people into Feinberg's IM residency alone over the past 4 years (click on sidebar tabs to see each year). Undoubtedly, there are additionally UIC people matching into Rush, UChicago, and UIC (28 in 3 years) IM residencies as well.

To put the Feinberg matches in perspective, that's more people matching from UIC into a single specialty at a single, highly respected non-home Chicago institution in less time than people from Geisel matching into all Chicago resdencies. If you for sure want to stay in Chicago, play it safe and go to UIC. However, Dartmouth also presents a ton of matches at Harvard-affiliates and other Boston area hospitals, which is a great opportunity if you want to stay within academic medical institutions (you didn't specifically address that earlier).

Were you able to attend UIC second look? How did you like the people you met? I attended two second looks and they lent a lot of insight into what each school's student body was like - and I found them to be very different, one more to my liking than the other.

Second look at UIC was on the same day as Geisel's. I attended UIC's because I didn't even go there for my interview day. It was an... okay experience. The people seemed nice, for sure, but the conversations I had felt a bit off. The people I was around didn't seem super thrilled to be there, but maybe I'm projecting by saying that. Objectively, though, the guy who presented on the curriculum change danced around people's questions relating to the challenges and shortcomings of the curriculum change. This worried me. The Chicago medical district is pretty cool and nice, though. I enjoyed walking around that area and could definitely see myself liking it, though that was no surprise to me.

I am not tied to the idea of going to Chicago for residency. It is, for sure, my preference, but I'm open to places on the east coast. I have talked to some folks who are currently residents and they told me that I shouldn't fret about the idea of going to Geisel and matching in Chicago. Basically, they said that, yes, UIC people match much more often in Chicago, but that's to be expected, since many of them have roots there anyways. People coming out of Geisel rarely have a strong inclination to go to Chicago, but if I do, that's definitely not something out of the question. Hopefully that makes sense. I'm drawn towards academic centers, though, yeah.

 

[whataremychancetherapper]

Bump/a question: How much stock, if at all, should I put into match lists in making this comparison? A physician I know (who is an otolaryngologist, which is revelant) was like "why don't you take the sum of the number of people matching into competitive specialties like derm, ortho, urology, otolaryngology, neurosurgery, rad-onc, and ophthalmology and find the percentage of matches at each school over a couple years to get a better idea?" Is that actually a good idea, or is that poor reasoning? How do you *actually* ascertain if one school matches better than the other?

 

[libertyyne]

Dartmouth has a nice 5-year overview of their residency matches (from 2010-2014, so perhaps a bit outdated), and over those 5 years they matched 6 people into Chicago area residencies, of all specialties. Meanwhile, UIC matched 8 people into Feinberg's IM residency alone over the past 4 years (click on sidebar tabs to see each year). Undoubtedly, there are additionally UIC people matching into Rush, UChicago, and UIC (28 in 3 years) IM residencies as well.

To put the Feinberg matches in perspective, that's more people matching from UIC into a single specialty at a single, highly respected non-home Chicago institution in less time than people from Geisel matching into all Chicago resdencies. If you for sure want to stay in Chicago, play it safe and go to UIC. However, Dartmouth also presents a ton of matches at Harvard-affiliates and other Boston area hospitals, which is a great opportunity if you want to stay within academic medical institutions (you didn't specifically address that earlier).

Were you able to attend UIC second look? How did you like the people you met? I attended two second looks and they lent a lot of insight into what each school's student body was like - and I found them to be very different, one more to my liking than the other.

This is assuming that students from both schools wanted to match at feinberg or chicago area residencies with equal frequency and have the same class sizes. Which is really not a high likelihood considering one is private vs state. and IIRC the class sizes are significantly different as well.


OP what are your career goals? Are there specific residencies you have in mind? Which schools have a home program in that residency and then place residents in a consistent fashion. My gut reaction is to say Dartmouth, but if you just want IM , Peds, or FP go where ever you want.

 

[whataremychancetherapper]

This is assuming that students from both schools wanted to match at feinberg or chicago area residencies with equal frequency and have the same class sizes. Which is really not a high likelihood considering one is private vs state. and IIRC the class sizes are significantly different as well.


OP what are your career goals? Are there specific residencies you have in mind? Which schools have a home program in that residency and then place residents in a consistent fashion. My gut reaction is to say Dartmouth, but if you just want IM , Peds, or FP go where ever you want.

Unfortunately, my career plans are a bit hazy. I do know that, while I am open to things like peds and IM, I don't want to close the doors on more competitive things like surgical specialties just yet.

 

[libertyyne]

Unfortunately, my career plans are a bit hazy. I do know that, while I am open to things like peds and IM, I don't want to close the doors on more competitive things like surgical specialties just yet.

I would matriculate at Dartmouth.

 

[libertyyne]

Bump/a question: How much stock, if at all, should I put into match lists in making this comparison? A physician I know (who is an otolaryngologist, which is revelant) was like "why don't you take the sum of the number of people matching into competitive specialties like derm, ortho, urology, otolaryngology, neurosurgery, rad-onc, and ophthalmology and find the percentage of matches at each school over a couple years to get a better idea?" Is that actually a good idea, or is that poor reasoning? How do you *actually* ascertain if one school matches better than the other?

Match lists are impossible to read effectively. The best thing you can do is see if the school has residency "home" programs in the residencies you can see yourself interested in. Those home programs will make a greater difference considering that IM in north dakota might have been the top choice for a student even with scores and research good enough for Derm at Harvard, rending match list reading useless. Ranking is a decent proxy but comes with it's own flaws, home programs in my opinion provide you with the opportunities you need to match into those specialties especially with specialty specific research and connections and crafting an application that will get traction or even making calls when calls are needed during soap. Reading a LOR from a person you know means a whole lot more than reading a LOR from some random doctor.

 

[whataremychancetherapper]

Match lists are impossible to read effectively. The best thing you can do is see if the school has residency "home" programs in the residencies you can see yourself interested in. Those home programs will make a greater difference considering that IM in north dakota might have been the top choice for a student even with scores and research good enough for Derm at Harvard, rending match list reading useless. Ranking is a decent proxy but comes with it's own flaws, home programs in my opinion provide you with the opportunities you need to match into those specialties especially with specialty specific research and connections and crafting an application that will get traction or even making calls when calls are needed during soap. Reading a LOR from a person you know means a whole lot more than reading a LOR from some random doctor.

Gotcha, thanks. For what it's worth, as I stated upthread, I would say that my top choice is to match back in the Chicago area, but I'm open to stuff on the east coast. The question, I guess, is whether going to Dartmouth will make it difficult for me to match back in Chicago (compared to going to UIC). I'm not totally convinced that it will, but I'm unsure. Anecdotally, I do have a family member who recently matched in Chicago after going to a low-ranked state school on the east coast, and I imagine that a factor there was the fact that her husband is starting work in Chicago next year. I feel like, if I have a compelling reason to be able to come back (which is family), I shouldn't have major issues with this.

 

[libertyyne]

Gotcha, thanks. For what it's worth, as I stated upthread, I would say that my top choice is to match back in the Chicago area, but I'm open to stuff on the east coast. The question, I guess, is whether going to Dartmouth will make it difficult for me to match back in Chicago (compared to going to UIC). I'm not totally convinced that it will, but I'm unsure. Anecdotally, I do have a family member who recently matched in Chicago after going to a low-ranked state school on the east coast, and I imagine that a factor there was the fact that her husband is starting work in Chicago next year. I feel like, if I have a compelling reason to be able to come back (which is family), I shouldn't have major issues with this.

You have ties to chicago, a few away rotations in chicago in m3-m4 should be able to make it even easier. I dont think you will have any difficulty matching back into Chicago from Dartmouth.

 

[Cardiana]

Everyone has made very valid points in this thread. However, I feel like only very few have stated the extreme difference between Chicago and Hanover. Having friends who are currently enrolled in both schools has allowed me to understand the social aspect of each medical school. Medical school is not just books, books, books. Surprisingly those who manage their time well have told me they're learning and LIVING.

1) Will M1s at UIC be guinea pigs with the new curriculum? Yes- but it's pass/fail. And more importantly those who have come before have matched into amazing residencies. UIC's match list just keeps getting better and better. All my friends say they wish they had the curriculum that M1s are about to have.

2) Hanover is how far from the nearest airport? Winter til April (it was a blizzard during the first week of April)? No reasonable night life in comparison to Chicago. A good friend of mine doesn't like her experience because she seems to be struggling unnecessarily and the dreams they sold about international research are not coming to fruition. On top of that- she travels to New York any time she wants to actually enjoy her weekend. Unless you love camping and the outdoors.....its just going to be a small town city. Seeing the same old classmates. And if you ever want to go home quickly- that's dead. And for everyone- never underestimate the greatness of having nearby support (whether its family or friends- you'll be wishing they were closer when **** hits the fan- and it will during M2 year-unless you live a ridiculously blessed life then keep doing you!).

3) Of course either location is great and you'll mature and have new experiences in which ever one you choose! Don't let the "prestige" of Dartmouth be the one thing you put over UIC. At the end of the day doing very well on Step 1, a nice class rank, and publications will get you into the residency you want. (Assuming you understand social cues and can interact with the weirdest of individuals). I know many a people who regret going to Duke Med or Emory Med just to suffer unnecessarily, obtain a lower class rank, and not the residency of their choice. While individuals at St. George's are interviewing with Yale Ortho....don't play yourself.

4) Also never underestimate interest payments...the loans aren't going to disappear. You will feel them leave your pockets. Find a sugar mama...get yourself into her will ASAP.

5) Sending positive vibes your way...it's a difficult choice but you'll do great in either place!

 

[whataremychancetherapper]

Just as an update on this, I actually chose UIC, after a lot of deliberation and thought. A lot of it did come down to support systems, location, connections, and some other wild-card things, like UIC's consistently-improving match list, which is actually pretty comparable to Geisel's 2017 match list.

I appreciate all the help I got here!

 

[tekkenman11]

Just as an update on this, I actually chose UIC, after a lot of deliberation and thought. A lot of it did come down to support systems, location, connections, and some other wild-card things, like UIC's consistently-improving match list, which is actually pretty comparable to Geisel's 2017 match list.

I appreciate all the help I got here!

Would you have made this same decision had you gotten UIC-Peoria instead?

Also, being over halfway through M1 do you think you "overrated" certain factors you were taking into consideration initially? How is the curriculum? PM me if you want instead, thanks!