UCLA DGSOM vs CCLCM

[fightontrojans]

UCLA David Geffen School of Medicine (traditional MD program)
Pros

• Location (lots to do, good food, close to home, friends & family)
• Good match list
• Ample research, volunteering, extracurricular opportunities
• High USNWR ranking

Cons

• Large class size - might make it harder to get to know the deans & faculty?
• Expensive (cost of living is high, and I received no scholarships, though I'm in-state)

Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine (5 year)
Pros

• Small class size - lots of individualized attention
• Good match list
• Cleveland Clinic is very well known
• Tuition is free, and cost of living in Cleveland is low
• Edit: No grades during clinical years

Cons

• Attendance is mandatory
• There's a dress code
• Location - coming from SoCal, I haven't found any good ethnic food in Cleveland, and it seems like there isn't as much to do as in LA
• Degree is awarded from Case Western - which isn't bad, but I feel UCLA definitely has a better reputation than Case

Unsure

• Lots of mandatory research - the research I have done so far has been interesting but not fun, though I acknowledge that I have many other types of research to try out. Research might also help me match in the future, if I choose to go into a competitive specialty.

Summary: I know that both schools will provide me an excellent education, though I feel the education at Cleveland Clinic may be more personalized. Thus, I'm very sold on CCLCM as a school; however in the week or so I've spent in Cleveland, I was not at all sold on the city and feel that I might be happier in Los Angeles. I would appreciate any thoughts, as I've been stuck deciding between these two for a long time!

Thanks.

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[theNDhopeful44]

Seems like you know your answer based off of your summary.

 

[slippydubloons]

UCLA in a heartbeat. Cons at Case def. outweigh the cons at UCLA IMO

 

[Toutie]

Normally I'd say UCLA in a heartbeat. But since you're a Trojan, maybe you should spend 4 years in Cleveland as punishment for THAT choice for undergrad.

What does your undergrad debt look like and what will be the $$$ difference in total COA for 4 years between UCLA and CCLCM? Obviously the less debt the better. BUT in some instances it's worth it to take on some debt.

 

[seeinghowitgoes]

Personally I think the free education is very difficult to pass up when you're considering being at a top institution and it's not like we're talking about you having to go to the middle of Wyoming to be there (though I admit I don't know your financial situation, and no offense Wyoming).

I'll also add that I think it's tough to know a city in one week - it's unfortunate because I get that's all you have to go off, but Case and CCLCM get a lot of Cali matriculants and I think lots of people enjoy their time in Cleveland. The way I explain it to people is it's not like NYC where there are 500 of everything (Indian restaurants, art museums, etc), but it is still a city and as such you can expect that Cleveland will have at least a taste (sometimes a lot more where the arts are concerned) of most things. I also think there is benefit to seeing the culture in a different area of the county - every region and the institutions in them have unique cultures that can absolutely influence and inform how you work (and who you are). Sounds like you've been in SoCal and perhaps want to end up there - fantastic, but don't overlook the intrinsic benefit of getting out for a while as well (because yes, even those flyover states have culture and perspectives to impart haha).

Finally, I do think some of the other features of CCLCM that aren't listed as pros are worth considering (not that you were trying to list every point for either school) - like the no grades (especially 3rd year) is pretty fantastic. Also, I think things like the dress code are perhaps less of issues in practice than they seem in theory (everybody has a dress code by third year anyway - going to class in a polo and kakis the first two years is nothing).

That being said I think you hit the nail on the head - you'll get a good education both places. You'll also see the rarest of conditions both places, work with huge names in the field in both places, and have access to unique data and research opportunities at both places. No bad choice here, and I genuinely believe that. Just thought I'd chime in to break up the coastal biases a bit

 

[fightontrojans]

Normally I'd say UCLA in a heartbeat. But since you're a Trojan, maybe you should spend 4 years in Cleveland as punishment for THAT choice for undergrad.

What does your undergrad debt look like and what will be the $$$ difference in total COA for 4 years between UCLA and CCLCM? Obviously the less debt the better. BUT in some instances it's worth it to take on some debt.

Haha! CCLCM is actually a 5 year program so that'd be an extra year of punishment.

Luckily, I have no undergrad debt. Difference in COA will be somewhere around 150,000 give or take 20,000 or so. Do you think this would change things?

 

[fightontrojans]

Thank you to everyone for your insights! I really appreciate it.

 

[deev04]

150,000 is a big difference, especially when you factor in the interest that will accrue on that during residency/fellowship and the COL if you want to live in CA or another big city for residency/post-grad. You'll be very busy in med school doing med school things (studying, research, shadowing, studying, rotations, etc), so the relative lack of fun things to do in the area might not actually seem like that big of a deal since you'll have so little time to do non-med school things anyways. I know many undergrads are described as "bubbles" even in big cities, and imagine this is only more of the case for most med students. Having the extra money to fly to cities/different countries and really take advantage of the breaks you do have might be a perk of going to CCLCM and saving that $$$.

 

[Frogger27]

Cleveland Clinic without a doubt. You cannot underestimate a 150,000+ in loans with interest. I am very familiar with Cleveland.. Although it is no LA, it is an awesome city and I think has a lot to offer. It will grow on you with time. Plus, with all the money you are saving you can take a ton of vacations if you need a break from Cleveland.

I also would not say that UCLA has a better reputation than Case... I think your Southern California bubble is telling you that Good luck with your choice!

 

[slippydubloons]

I completely disagree with the above responses because they are neglecting to mention you will start your attending-hood a year early if you come out of UCLA, therefore if you live like a resident in that year (the same year you would be in your last year of residency out of CCLCM) you will be able to pay off the majority, if not all of (depending on specialty), the 150K+ interest in loans, thereby putting yourself on equal financial footing than if you had come out of CCLCM.

Again, I think you may be underestimating the importance of living in a city you love/are familiar with for med school.

 

[wagonwheel23]

@slippydubloons knows what is up. That is a great way to think about finances.

 

[deev04]

I completely disagree with the above responses because they are neglecting to mention you will start your attending-hood a year early if you come out of UCLA, therefore if you live like a resident in that year (the same year you would be in your last year of residency out of CCLCM) you will be able to pay off the majority, if not all of (depending on specialty), the 150K+ interest in loans, thereby putting yourself on equal financial footing than if you had come out of CCLCM.

Again, I think you may be underestimating the importance of living in a city you love/are familiar with for med school.

I think this point is completely fair, but many, many people think 150K extra debt for a school is a lot of money and worth some serious consideration. Many people decide to go for the cheaper option with a $$ differential less than $150k, and this is often when the school is not even as incredible an option as CCLCM. Living like a resident another year also might not be everyones thing (e.g. you have kids and a residents salary means taking on more loans just to pay for childcare). Taking a fifth, research year is becoming increasingly popular and I'll bet a sizable percentage of students at UCLA students take one (and a majority at some top tiers- Yale, Stanford, Harv?). In certain specialties/certain situations, taking one is almost necessary, so the fifth year could be a positive thing for OP, or at least neutral (especially if there is some interest in research and a goal of looking extra competitive for top-tier residencies).

A lot of this comes down to personal preferences for OP. We're not signing those loans for you nor living in Cleveland. If the 150k is worth it for UCLA, than OP should go for it, but I think voicing a pretty common opinion that 150k is a lot of money and worth giving some thought to is valuable.

And how do you know OP or previous responses are underestimating the importance of being in a familiar city for med school? Underestimating compared to the importance you've assigned to this, maybe, but for many people this isn't a huge deal. Many people go across the country/far away for ug/med school/residency/etc. and are pretty fine with that. The idea that being in a familiar city is better is a matter of personal preference and sort of impossible for any of us to say how much the OP should value that. Adding diverse perspectives on things can be helpful.

 

[fightontrojans]

Thanks, everyone! I've been reading all the replies, and it seems like I'll just need to do some more soul-searching in the next few days to figure out what I truly value (in terms of finances, staying somewhere familiar, etc)., but in the meantime if anyone else has any more input on either school, it's always appreciated.

 

[MDToBe22]

I'm not on either school's waitlist, but I've seen some of your posts on here before.

You'd be an idiot to turn down UCLA. You're correct that they have a significantly better reputation than Case, and you shouldn't underestimate having your family as a support system nearby during med school.

The free tuition seems to really be the only thing you like about CCLCM, and all the cons you listed appear to be based around research, which is the focal point of their curriculum. Like @slippydubloons mentioned, if you're still hanging onto cost as your saving grace, let me try to further convince you that one year is nothing in the grand scheme of your career. Is being unhappy for 5 years in a place you dislike worth one year of resident's level salary? Absolutely not.

You have the chance to go to an incredible school in an incredible state– you don't want to look back 10 years from now and wonder "what if." I'm casting my vote for Geffen– just my two cents though. I hope you make the right choice.

 

[Radiata20]

Disclaimer: I'm a current DGSOM student.

This issue of reputation is not so clear-cut, and there is a definite regional bias, as an above poster mentioned. Ask CA attendings, and they generally hold both schools in very high regard. Ask East Coast attendings, and you may find that many may favor Cleveland Clinic. If your goal is to match back to CA, you'll do just fine at either school, so this shouldn't really be a consideration IMO; if your goal is to match somewhere back east, then you might want to lean on any East Coast medicine contacts for more advice.

Regarding the larger class size, I think it's a reasonable thing to be concerned about--one year ago, I was wondering the same thing. However, I can tell you that it hasn't at all been an issue from the mentorship/personalized attention standpoint at all. If you attended our Second Look, you'll remember Dr. Baum actually addressed this directly during the Friday dinner: We are a huge health system with thousands of faculty at UCLA Health and our affiliates. There is no shortage of possible mentors, and during your rotations, the student-attending ratio per team is the same as you'd expect to find anywhere else. Even as an MS1, there are more than half a dozen attendings whom I consider mentors here, and another dozen whom I've worked with one-on-one enough that they recognize me by name when we run into each other on the wards and in the clinic. Aside from the ones you work with in the lecture hall and small-group classrooms, you will meet many mentors through shadowing, research, interest groups events, and even personal introductions from Dr. Baum. So I have not had any issues with individualized attention here, nor have I heard my upperclassmen complain about it.

The more noticeable effect of having 180 classmates is that you won't know everyone in your class here as well as you would at a smaller school like CCLCM. But the flip side of having 5.5x as many classmates is that you will meet 5.5x as many people who share your same quirky, uncommon interests; 5.5x as many people to invite out to social or academic events; and 5.5x as many best friends whom you'll keep for life. It's unquestionably a trade-off, but it's one that I've never once regretted making since matriculating here.

I know it's getting pretty down to the wire, but if you would like to revisit campus to take another look, or talk to a current student, let us know! Otherwise, we hope to see you back here either in August for your White Coat Ceremony, or in five years for residency

 

[fightontrojans]

Valid points. I thought I should just clarify, though - I don't feel as if the tuition is CCLCM's only saving grace. I had a great time at CCLCM's second look and connected with lots of potential classmates. The environment feels very nurturing and like something I would enjoy. This feeling I got at CCLCM's second look is what initially made me hesitate about going to UCLA, because I was worried that I'd get lost among the crowd (so thank you @Radiata20 for your perspective.)

As for the research that @MDToBe22 mentioned, I think the issue is that I simply haven't done enough of it yet - just some dabbling in basic sciences, which was interesting but not my cup of tea. So I'm not sure if research is something I'd enjoy or if I'd be doing it just to go through the motions/because I think it'll help me match later on. This is also something I'll also have to think long and hard about before making my decision, but it's very easy to sit here and convince myself that I'll like it and that I just haven't done enough of it.

 

[MDToBe22]

Valid points. I thought I should just clarify, though - I don't feel as if the tuition is CCLCM's only saving grace. I had a great time at CCLCM's second look and connected with lots of potential classmates. The environment feels very nurturing and like something I would enjoy. This feeling I got at CCLCM's second look is what initially made me hesitate about going to UCLA, because I was worried that I'd get lost among the crowd (so thank you @Radiata20 for your perspective.)

As for the research that @MDToBe22 mentioned, I think the issue is that I simply haven't done enough of it yet - just some dabbling in basic sciences, which was interesting but not my cup of tea. So I'm not sure if research is something I'd enjoy or if I'd be doing it just to go through the motions/because I think it'll help me match later on. This is also something I'll also have to think long and hard about before making my decision, but it's very easy to sit here and convince myself that I'll like it and that I just haven't done enough of it.

I also thought the same thing as you. I, too, had done some basic science research (for a bit less than a semester) and since I had gotten my name on a poster and a paper, was encouraged by my PI to pursue academic medicine. I toyed with the idea for a bit– and figured I could do it if I really wanted to– but personally realized that I didn't love research to the extent that I needed to in order to really appreciate the training I'd get in an MD/PhD program (or a program similar to CCLCM, for that matter).

So you're right, it's definitely easy to convince yourself that you'll end up liking it over the long term. But more often than not, if you're not 100% in love with research from the get-go, it's very unlikely that you'll end up growing to love it. You said research "wasn't your cup of tea," but that you found it interesting. You'll still be able to do research should you choose as a student at UCLA (but if you don't like it, no sweat! No pressure to do it) but you are required to do research basically all throughout the curriculum at CCLCM. It's like a shirt you see at the mall: if you don't absolutely love it the first time you try it on, you're very very very unlikely to wear it out in public if you buy it.

Don't try to convince yourself to do something that you think will help you in the long run– it's not worth your personal unhappiness for such a long time.