Trump wants to cut $4.1T over 10 years

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President Trump plans to unveil on Tuesday a $4.1 trillion budget for 2018 that would cut deeply into programs for the poor, from health care and food stamps to student loans and disability payments, laying out an austere vision for reordering the nation’s priorities.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/22/...prod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share




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...sounds like we are headed to become a third world country.
 
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We are 20 Trillion in debt... cuts need to happen. I watched someone buy 9 24 packs of soda with their EBT and so many people on Medicaid are on bogus pain management/benzo scripts costing us thousands each year per patient (The MD's usually see them monthly and bill a full ~$250 each visit). Something needs to happen. I fully support cuts and addressing inefficiencies and more need based focus on social programs. Again, we are 20 trillion in debt... Why should we pay for soda on the taxpayer dime or spend thousands for people to have oxycodone and Xanax filled each month when it's likely being abused or barely legit? I know people who are eligible for private insurance through their employer but get Medicaid and chose it because everything is free, all it takes is a few kids as a single parent also collecting child support... They aren't hurting for money and they opt for the state to pay when they can get employer sponsored insurance simply because they would have to pay a premiu and deductible so they opt for it all to be "free". Few things anger me quite like rampant welfare and watching the system get gamed. I pay too much in taxes for that. If I have to pay %37 of my income in taxes as a single male with no kids you shouldn't be allowed to game the system, and the "system" needs to lower eligibility to the truly needy and restrict what it pays for and covers. There is no reason why my taxes need to pay for your $35 in sodas for the pool party or for someone with no documented injury or physical proof of "chronic pain" to get Oxy 30 and Methadone 10 each month coupled with Xanax and Adderall.
 
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End user welfare fwa is absolute peanuts to that of providers and up. You think stopping one from buying $25 of soda is going to fix the budget? 100$ of Xanax a year?
 
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At least where I live, I see tons of kids with cancer and preemies on Medicaid. Should we cut their services, too? Because they shouldn't have been born to poor families? Hmm.

People will actually die in the streets if these cuts occur. And that's just not acceptable.
 
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At least where I live, I see tons of kids with cancer and preemies on Medicaid. Should we cut their services, too? Because they shouldn't have been born to poor families? Hmm.

People will actually die in the streets if these cuts occur. And that's just not acceptable.

Nope, they are the truly needy and the system should exist for them... not for the others who game it and take from those funds.
 
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End user welfare fwa is absolute peanuts to that of providers and up. You think stopping one from buying $25 of soda is going to fix the budget? 100$ of Xanax a year?

Multiply that by thousands of people and add the fees physicians bill for monthly, you'll save millions if not billions. That's not the only cut that needs to be made though, more should be done. The spending isn't sustainable. Focus on building a self supporting economy and cut social spending, let people work for their needs. I shouldn't have to subsidize anyone's life except those with extenuating circumstances like cancer or severe debilitating illness. How do we not wind up 20 trillion in debt?
 
How do you plan on people living while working full time at 10/hour without aid. You have to reconcile that these people need aid or they should just die. the budget can be fixed without punishing the less well off

Address why they are less well off. Are these people choosing to not better themselves? I think the aid should be limited. Pain meds on medicaid should limited only to those with physical proof of pain need or cancer and benzos only for people with legit panic attacks to be used ONLY prn, not around the clock like all tend to use them.... The poor have better healthcare than the middle class at the expense of the middle class/wealthy. The system should focus on lifting oneself up and the focus needs to be on creating jobs that pay better so people won't need gov subsidy. At the end of the day though medicaid and EBT should never be a better option than private pay. The fact that people are eligible for both but opt for the taxpayer to fund them should be an outrage. Why should a full time member eligible for employer insurance be allowed to have Medicaid? Why should need based medicaid be better than insurance we all partake in? As cold as it sounds... Why do the poor have better healthcare options and costs than the middle class who are expected to pay deductibles and have more restrictions? Again I reiterate we operate on a deficit and are 20 trillion in debt. Not having cuts isn't an option as the spending isn't sustainible. Work a month in retail pharmacy and you'll see thousands wasted. Medicaid kids on Vyvanse costing the state 1k+ a month for their ADHD. Other countries like Japan have all amphetamines as an illegal substance yet score higher in education...
 
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We are 20 Trillion in debt... cuts need to happen. I watched someone buy 9 24 packs of soda with their EBT and so many people on Medicaid are on bogus pain management/benzo scripts costing us thousands each year per patient (The MD's usually see them monthly and bill a full ~$250 each visit). Something needs to happen. I fully support cuts and addressing inefficiencies and more need based focus on social programs. Again, we are 20 trillion in debt... Why should we pay for soda on the taxpayer dime or spend thousands for people to have oxycodone and Xanax filled each month when it's likely being abused or barely legit? I know people who are eligible for private insurance through their employer but get Medicaid and chose it because everything is free, all it takes is a few kids as a single parent also collecting child support... They aren't hurting for money and they opt for the state to pay when they can simply so they don't have to. Few things anger me quite like rampant welfare and watching the system get games. I pay too much in taxes for that.


You know this is total and complete crap..... Drivel and worse. Anecdotal crap.......

First, I love how people who are for freedom except for people who are on welfare, they should have tap water and vegetables. If they want to spend all their EBT money on soda so be it. It's a free country.

Secondly there is not a welfare plan anywhere in the US that pays a doctor $250.00 for a monthly visit.

Third, saying welfare spending on drugs contributes the deficit is just a lie the right wing people tell each other so they confirm their bias that the poorer and darker people are stealing their hard earned tax dollars. If you fairly and objectively look at the percentage of the federal budget that is spent on Medicaid, CHIP and Obamacare Subsidies, it is 8.25% of the Federal budget. Let's take all of the cuts from that 8% because a a couple of bozos bought soda and oxycodone on the government dime.....

Do you really think it's unfair to you the government spends 392 billion on those three areas while the better off folks get:

Home Mortgage Deduction.........................$ 77 billion
Lower Tax rates on Capital Gains................$ 134.6 billion
401K deferral of Income...............................$ 109 billion
Deduction for state and local taxes..............$ 65.1 billion
Pensions........................................................$ 57.4 billion

I guess the middle and upper classes are doing ok as that comes in at 442.5 billion. If you throw in the fact we don't pay taxes on employer paid health care at 143.8 billion. You are just deluding yourself if you think welfare spending is what is causing our spending problem...
 
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You know this is total and complete crap..... Drivel and worse. Anecdotal crap.......

First, I love how people who are for freedom except for people who are on welfare, they should have tap water and vegetables. If they want to spend all their EBT money on soda so be it. It's a free country.

Secondly there is not a welfare plan anywhere in the US that pays a doctor $250.00 for a monthly visit.

Third, saying welfare spending on drugs contributes the deficit is just a lie the right wing people tell each other so they confirm their bias that the poorer and darker people are stealing their hard earned tax dollars. If you fairly and objectively look at the percentage of the federal budget that is spent on Medicaid, CHIP and Obamacare Subsidies, it is 8.25% of the Federal budget. Let's take all of the cuts from that 8% because a a couple of bozos bought soda and oxycodone on the government dime.....

Do you really think it's unfair to you the government spends 392 billion on those three areas while the better off folks get:

Home Mortgage Deduction.........................$ 77 billion
Lower Tax rates on Capital Gains................$ 134.6 billion
401K deferral of Income...............................$ 109 billion
Deduction for state and local taxes..............$ 65.1 billion
Pensions........................................................$ 57.4 billion

I guess the middle and upper classes are doing ok as that comes in at 442.5 billion. If you throw in the fact we don't pay taxes on employer paid health care at 143.8 billion. You are just deluding yourself if you think welfare spending is what is causing our spending problem...

It's not a "free country" when someone else is paying for you.

I say end all deductions. Own a home vs rent? Owning should be more expensiveness. Live in a high tax state? Don't be allowed to deduct that. I live in a very blue high tax state and honestly I think it's wrong that I can at present deduct my state taxes while other states like TX or TN don't impose an income tax basically punishing their taxpayers when they file federally. State taxes shouldn't be exempt, maybe then people in such states will demand lower taxes.

We are spending too much. Homeowners, gov subsidy individuals, and others need to feel the heat. How do you think we address 20 Trillion in deficit spending? And don't event suggest cutting the military as today's climate demands a strong US Military.
 
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$400B to implement single payer system just in California. I am for it but we also need to raise taxes on everyone from the billionaire to the single mom:

Single-payer healthcare could cost $400 billion to implement in California

We are currently not paying for a lot of these social services since we are just borrowing money to pay for them. So let's be realistic. We need to raise taxes on everyone.


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You know this is total and complete crap..... Drivel and worse. Anecdotal crap.......

First, I love how people who are for freedom except for people who are on welfare, they should have tap water and vegetables. If they want to spend all their EBT money on soda so be it. It's a free country.

Secondly there is not a welfare plan anywhere in the US that pays a doctor $250.00 for a monthly visit.

Third, saying welfare spending on drugs contributes the deficit is just a lie the right wing people tell each other so they confirm their bias that the poorer and darker people are stealing their hard earned tax dollars. If you fairly and objectively look at the percentage of the federal budget that is spent on Medicaid, CHIP and Obamacare Subsidies, it is 8.25% of the Federal budget. Let's take all of the cuts from that 8% because a a couple of bozos bought soda and oxycodone on the government dime.....

Do you really think it's unfair to you the government spends 392 billion on those three areas while the better off folks get:

Home Mortgage Deduction.........................$ 77 billion
Lower Tax rates on Capital Gains................$ 134.6 billion
401K deferral of Income...............................$ 109 billion
Deduction for state and local taxes..............$ 65.1 billion
Pensions........................................................$ 57.4 billion

I guess the middle and upper classes are doing ok as that comes in at 442.5 billion. If you throw in the fact we don't pay taxes on employer paid health care at 143.8 billion. You are just deluding yourself if you think welfare spending is what is causing our spending problem...


Your capital gains tax break theory is flawed. Each time capital gains tax rates have increased revenue decreased and vice versa. Plus the unintended consequences when you discourage risk taking. When you change the rate behavior changes.

Mortgage interest deduction also helps the middle class and helps contribute to the economy through jobs etc.

401k is to promote savings and will be taxed at a currently unknown rate. You know since americas Saving rate is abysmal. But sure it's a 109 billion revenue loss lol.
 
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$400B to implement single payer system just in California. I am for it but we also need to raise taxes on everyone from the billionaire to the single mom:

Single-payer healthcare could cost $400 billion to implement in California

We are currently not paying for a lot of these social services since we are just borrowing money to pay for them. So let's be realistic. We need to raise taxes on everyone.


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It's funny people don't realize the tax rates in Europe and >50% pay them in addition to VAT. Heck a huge percentage of Americans don't pay a federal income tax
 
It's not a "free country" when someone else is paying for you.

I say end all deductions. Own a home vs rent? Owning should be more expensiveness. Live in a high tax state? Don't be allowed to deduct that. I live in a very blue high tax state and honestly I think it's wrong that I can at present deduct my state taxes while other states like TX or TN don't impose an income tax basically punishing their taxpayers when they file federally. State taxes shouldn't be exempt, maybe then people in such states will demand lower taxes.

We are spending too much. Homeowners, gov subsidy individuals, and others need to feel the heat. How do you think we address 20 Trillion in deficit spending? And don't event suggest cutting the military as today's climate demands a strong US Military.

You do realize that those in a tax free state still come out ahead depending on their property tax etc. if you pay 10k in state taxes you get 3k back in federal for a net loss of 7k. So in Florida that's 7k extra to spend
 
A lot of Trump supporters think America is sliding into third-world status anyway. Let Rome burn to the ground and Florida drown
 
You know this is total and complete crap..... Drivel and worse. Anecdotal crap.......

First, I love how people who are for freedom except for people who are on welfare, they should have tap water and vegetables. If they want to spend all their EBT money on soda so be it. It's a free country.

Secondly there is not a welfare plan anywhere in the US that pays a doctor $250.00 for a monthly visit.

Third, saying welfare spending on drugs contributes the deficit is just a lie the right wing people tell each other so they confirm their bias that the poorer and darker people are stealing their hard earned tax dollars. If you fairly and objectively look at the percentage of the federal budget that is spent on Medicaid, CHIP and Obamacare Subsidies, it is 8.25% of the Federal budget. Let's take all of the cuts from that 8% because a a couple of bozos bought soda and oxycodone on the government dime.....

Do you really think it's unfair to you the government spends 392 billion on those three areas while the better off folks get:

Home Mortgage Deduction.........................$ 77 billion
Lower Tax rates on Capital Gains................$ 134.6 billion
401K deferral of Income...............................$ 109 billion
Deduction for state and local taxes..............$ 65.1 billion
Pensions........................................................$ 57.4 billion

I guess the middle and upper classes are doing ok as that comes in at 442.5 billion. If you throw in the fact we don't pay taxes on employer paid health care at 143.8 billion. You are just deluding yourself if you think welfare spending is what is causing our spending problem...

You mention people who "love freedom" but you fail to understand that private property rights are one of the main principles freedom. Redistribution of wealth is quite literally the opposite of the right to private property. A government bureaucrat deciding who has too much and who has too little. Taking money from person A and handing it to person B. Not only is this not freedom, it is also inherently inefficient. Other people spending other people's money on other people is inherently inefficient. But anyways, to my origional point, freedom does not mean that you have the "freedom" to take other people's hard earned money by force and spend it however you see fit. Real freedom would mean that person A, who actually earned the money, keeps it.

And to your last point, taxing one person in order to hand the money to a second person (entitlement program) is not equivalent to just not taxing someone in the first place (a deduction).

I know nothing will change your mind, I've seen your posts and you're a commie through and through, but you cant actually be serious this time...
 
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Your capital gains tax break theory is flawed. Each time capital gains tax rates have increased revenue decreased and vice versa. Plus the unintended consequences when you discourage risk taking. When you change the rate behavior changes.

Mortgage interest deduction also helps the middle class and helps contribute to the economy through jobs etc.

401k is to promote savings and will be taxed at a currently unknown rate. You know since americas Saving rate is abysmal. But sure it's a 109 billion revenue loss lol.

Don't bother, he's an economic illiterate. I've seen many of his posts and there is no hope.
 
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We have the wealthiest poor people in the world. The middle class has been shrinking for decades. The government has no problem putting more people on the tit because they can control them better. I work in a major city and see rampant abuse of Medicaid. There needs to be cuts. I think Old Timer must live in one of the commie states. Brings to mind the Bible quote of giving a man fish vs teaching him how to fish. Aw heck no one reads that thing anymore.
 
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Address why they are less well off. Are these people choosing to not better themselves? I think the aid should be limited ......The system should focus on lifting oneself up and the focus needs to be on creating jobs that pay better so people won't need gov subsidy. At the end of the day though medicaid and EBT should never be a better option than private pay. The fact that people are eligible for both but opt for the taxpayer to fund them should be an outrage. Why should a full time member eligible for employer insurance be allowed to have Medicaid?

That system collapsed when Americans decided they wanted cheap things to full their McMansion and allowed major corporations to pay unlivable wages with minimal benefits all while barely paying tax. Not everything can be a professional making 100k/year like in your dream. people need to work at wal-mart, the grocery store, subway.

Either you raise min wage to a real livable wage or instate some type of guaranteed minimum income, or you accept that public assistance will be used to supplement unlivable wages many Americans are forced to work.

as for people taking Medicaid vs a private option when available, I assume you take tax deductions avalable to you to increase you net income? Why shouldn't they?
 
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You mention people who "love freedom" but you fail to understand that private property rights are one of the main principles freedom. Redistribution of wealth is quite literally the opposite of the right to private property. A government bureaucrat deciding who has too much and who has too little. Taking money from person A and handing it to person B. Not only is this not freedom, it is also inherently inefficient. Other people spending other people's money on other people is inherently inefficient. But anyways, to my origional point, freedom does not mean that you have the "freedom" to take other people's hard earned money by force and spend it however you see fit. Real freedom would mean that person A, who actually earned the money, keeps it.

And to your last point, taxing one person in order to hand the money to a second person (entitlement program) is not equivalent to just not taxing someone in the first place (a deduction).

I know nothing will change your mind, I've seen your posts and you're a commie through and through, but you cant actually be serious this time...

No it's not. You have a pool of money you earn. Upper middle class people get to reduce the amount of taxes they pay buy having certain benefits written into law. I don't dispute the economic advantages of these deductions. But that does not make it in and of itself not make it an advantage for the receiver and a loss of income for the government.
I not a c communist or a socialist. I just point out that if you eliminated welfare entirely you would still have large budget deficits.
 
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We have the wealthiest poor people in the world. The middle class has been shrinking for decades. The government has no problem putting more people on the tit because they can control them better. I work in a major city and see rampant abuse of Medicaid. There needs to be cuts. I think Old Timer must live in one of the commie states. Brings to mind the Bible quote of giving a man fish vs teaching him how to fish. Aw heck no one reads that thing anymore.
The bible also says if you have two coats and another man has none you should give the man one of your coats. It also says eating shellfish is an abomination.

But that's ok just use the parts that support your world view. ;)

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Our taxes are already too high, 60 an hour is already 40 an hour or less after taxes it is utterly insane. We are still in a ton of debt as a country even with the crazy taxes. The middle class pays full price for healthcare, student loans, etc while being squeezed more and more every day.
 
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OK, I'm a libertarian, but I still realize that the end user benefits should be the last thing to be touched--because 1) they have the most immediate effect on actual people's lives and 2) they are a drop in the bucket compared to other expenses.

Trump wanting to cut medical benefits at the the same time he is increasing military spending shows his true intentions. Trump doesn't care one iota about the "little people" he persuaded to vote for him. He is simply a corporate warmonger.

Let's not pretend that Trump is cutting medicaid because he wants to decrease the budget or cut spending or any of that. He is cutting medicaid simply because he wants to have more money to give to his cronies.
 
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You people are all thinking in 2oth Century thought processes. Long game outlook...there isn't going to be any quality labor available for the average Joe and Jill. Transportation and service industries are going to be ravaged....AI is going to replace a lot of white collar work...its going to be a bloodbath. In a few generations, most of the type of people in this thread complaining about taxes are going to be just another working-class poor they currently despise having to help support. Economic opportunity gets chipped away day by day, year by year. Every second, the value of human labor decreases. Eventually, the average joe is either going to get a check for being alive...or the average joesa are going to start chopping off the heads of the rich people.

I'd be amused by either outcome.
 
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It's not gonna happen.

President Trump's budget proposal has few fans on Capitol Hill

Instead of cutting entitlement programs and Medicaid and EBT, why not cut the military? We don't need to have bases, submarines, aircraft carriers, destroyers, etc all over the world. We don't need to continue to develop new fighter aircraft. No one is gonna invade us. The armed citizens in this country would make quick work of any invading army. End the drug war, and end the war on terror.
 
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I think the Miltary should be drastically shrunk, talk about a massive bloated welfare program. But to even suggest that upsets all the chickenhawks and rednecks
 
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It's not gonna happen.

President Trump's budget proposal has few fans on Capitol Hill

Instead of cutting entitlement programs and Medicaid and EBT, why not cut the military? We don't need to have bases, submarines, aircraft carriers, destroyers, etc all over the world. We don't need to continue to develop new fighter aircraft. No one is gonna invade us. The armed citizens in this country would make quick work of any invading army. End the drug war, and end the war on terror.

You can tell where trumps priorities are, funny enough these cuts affect those who voted for him more.. Look at the list of the most impoverished states, and states with the highest amount of pre existing conditions.. suffering and smiling is the new order..
 
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We are 20 Trillion in debt... cuts need to happen. I watched someone buy 9 24 packs of soda with their EBT and so many people on Medicaid are on bogus pain management/benzo scripts costing us thousands each year per patient (The MD's usually see them monthly and bill a full ~$250 each visit). Something needs to happen. I fully support cuts and addressing inefficiencies and more need based focus on social programs. Again, we are 20 trillion in debt... Why should we pay for soda on the taxpayer dime or spend thousands for people to have oxycodone and Xanax filled each month when it's likely being abused or barely legit? I know people who are eligible for private insurance through their employer but get Medicaid and chose it because everything is free, all it takes is a few kids as a single parent also collecting child support... They aren't hurting for money and they opt for the state to pay when they can get employer sponsored insurance simply because they would have to pay a premiu and deductible so they opt for it all to be "free". Few things anger me quite like rampant welfare and watching the system get gamed. I pay too much in taxes for that. If I have to pay %37 of my income in taxes as a single male with no kids you shouldn't be allowed to game the system, and the "system" needs to lower eligibility to the truly needy and restrict what it pays for and covers. There is no reason why my taxes need to pay for your $35 in sodas for the pool party or for someone with no documented injury or physical proof of "chronic pain" to get Oxy 30 and Methadone 10 each month coupled with Xanax and Adderall.

But it's been pretty well proven you can't cut your way via austerity. Been there, done that. Besides, cutting discretionary spending and not entitlements (soc sec, medicare) is like pissing in the wind.


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You know this is total and complete crap..... Drivel and worse. Anecdotal crap.......

First, I love how people who are for freedom except for people who are on welfare, they should have tap water and vegetables. If they want to spend all their EBT money on soda so be it. It's a free country.

As with any time the government gets involved in a sector or a project, people are always going to try and control costs. Why use tax dollars to fund welfare and expect no one to question how the money is being used? Private charities can do whatever they want with their help. If they want to buy steak and baked potatoes for the homeless, go for it! But when you start using my money to fund these projects, there will always be someone looking at costs. As they should be doing.
 
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The bible also says if you have two coats and another man has none you should give the man one of your coats. It also says eating shellfish is an abomination.

But that's ok just use the parts that support your world view. ;)

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The key word is give and not take by force. It's funny to me that some of the most generous donors to charities are republicans...
 
The problem with many charities is that they are affiliated with religious groups. One of my ex-girlfriends told me that when she was young she got kicked out of her house and had to find a place to live. She worked full-time so she made too much to be on Medicaid or to qualify for Section 8 Housing. She found a half-way house but a couple weeks after staying there, she found that they were being very aggressive about trying to convert her to the Christian faith.
 
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when the country is in debt, trillions of dollars in debt, the country is beyond poor.... a life of austerity is 20 trillion dollars long overdue.... Obama and Clinton's wasteful spending led this country broke.
 
when the country is in debt, trillions of dollars in debt, the country is beyond poor.... a life of austerity is 20 trillion dollars long overdue.... Obama and Clinton's wasteful spending led this country broke.

Don't forget Bush's wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
 
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when the country is in debt, trillions of dollars in debt, the country is beyond poor.... a life of austerity is 20 trillion dollars long overdue.... Obama and Clinton's wasteful spending led this country broke.

Didn't we have a surplus after Clinton until Bush?
 
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The key word is give and not take by force. It's funny to me that some of the most generous donors to charities are republicans...

I'd be really surprised if there was any hard proof that either Democrats or Republicans donate more to charity. I don't have evidence either, but it feels like people of means are typically more likely to donate than those without, regardless of political affiliation. Living in the rural south, I see impoverished people on both sides of the spectrum and none of them can donate much beyond tithing to their church.

I hate taxes as much as the next person. I'm in the same boat as you. 30%+ of my income goes towards taxes. I pick up a side job to save more money and it feels like the increased tax burden wipes that out. However, I will begrudgingly accept that as part of the social contract. Public schools, police, fire departments, roads, we benefit from it all. I agree that the money probably isn't spent efficiently, and I would love to correct that. But I just can't get behind defunding our public services because we, collectively, get way more out of it than we would having to pay individually. With regard to defense.. man, we could cut that in half and still have the baddest force on the planet.
 
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The problem with many charities is that they are affiliated with religious groups. One of my ex-girlfriends told me that when she was young she got kicked out of her house and had to find a place to live. She worked full-time so she made too much to be on Medicaid or to qualify for Section 8 Housing. She found a half-way house but a couple weeks after staying there, she found that they were being very aggressive about trying to convert her to the Christian faith.


Well duh, she'd be stupid not to. With the whole hell and eternal damnation thing. Believe in an Anglo Jesus and your soul will be saved
 
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The problem with many charities is that they are affiliated with religious groups. One of my ex-girlfriends told me that when she was young she got kicked out of her house and had to find a place to live. She worked full-time so she made too much to be on Medicaid or to qualify for Section 8 Housing. She found a half-way house but a couple weeks after staying there, she found that they were being very aggressive about trying to convert her to the Christian faith.

Pick your poison. Live on the streets or halfway house with annoying religious people.
 
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We are 20 Trillion in debt... cuts need to happen. I watched someone buy 9 24 packs of soda with their EBT and so many people on Medicaid are on bogus pain management/benzo scripts costing us thousands each year per patient (The MD's usually see them monthly and bill a full ~$250 each visit). Something needs to happen. I fully support cuts and addressing inefficiencies and more need based focus on social programs. Again, we are 20 trillion in debt... Why should we pay for soda on the taxpayer dime or spend thousands for people to have oxycodone and Xanax filled each month when it's likely being abused or barely legit? I know people who are eligible for private insurance through their employer but get Medicaid and chose it because everything is free, all it takes is a few kids as a single parent also collecting child support... They aren't hurting for money and they opt for the state to pay when they can get employer sponsored insurance simply because they would have to pay a premiu and deductible so they opt for it all to be "free". Few things anger me quite like rampant welfare and watching the system get gamed. I pay too much in taxes for that. If I have to pay %37 of my income in taxes as a single male with no kids you shouldn't be allowed to game the system, and the "system" needs to lower eligibility to the truly needy and restrict what it pays for and covers. There is no reason why my taxes need to pay for your $35 in sodas for the pool party or for someone with no documented injury or physical proof of "chronic pain" to get Oxy 30 and Methadone 10 each month coupled with Xanax and Adderall.

That would be all well and good if Trump also didn't want to roll out massive tax cuts. To really cut into the national debt, you need to cut spending as well as increase tax revenue. Vacillating between one or the other will do nothing for getting rid of the debt.
 
You know this is total and complete crap..... Drivel and worse. Anecdotal crap.......

First, I love how people who are for freedom except for people who are on welfare, they should have tap water and vegetables. If they want to spend all their EBT money on soda so be it. It's a free country.

Secondly there is not a welfare plan anywhere in the US that pays a doctor $250.00 for a monthly visit.

Third, saying welfare spending on drugs contributes the deficit is just a lie the right wing people tell each other so they confirm their bias that the poorer and darker people are stealing their hard earned tax dollars. If you fairly and objectively look at the percentage of the federal budget that is spent on Medicaid, CHIP and Obamacare Subsidies, it is 8.25% of the Federal budget. Let's take all of the cuts from that 8% because a a couple of bozos bought soda and oxycodone on the government dime.....

Do you really think it's unfair to you the government spends 392 billion on those three areas while the better off folks get:

Home Mortgage Deduction.........................$ 77 billion
Lower Tax rates on Capital Gains................$ 134.6 billion
401K deferral of Income...............................$ 109 billion
Deduction for state and local taxes..............$ 65.1 billion
Pensions........................................................$ 57.4 billion

I guess the middle and upper classes are doing ok as that comes in at 442.5 billion. If you throw in the fact we don't pay taxes on employer paid health care at 143.8 billion. You are just deluding yourself if you think welfare spending is what is causing our spending problem...

Social welfare programs make up the largest chunk of any federal or state budget. I don't know what you are smoking. Obviousy, OP is not saying to cut everything...but even a 20-30% cut would go a long way over 10 years.

https://www.budget.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/CRS Report - Welfare Spending The Largest Item In The Federal Budget.pdf
 
Social welfare programs make up the largest chunk of any federal or state budget. I don't know what you are smoking. Obviousy, OP is not saying to cut everything...but even a 20-30% cut would go a long way over 10 years.

https://www.budget.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/CRS Report - Welfare Spending The Largest Item In The Federal Budget.pdf

No, that would be Defense (and I mean more than just the DoD) and its constituent issues.

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/new/budgetinfographic.png

It's been a MAJOR point of contention between the Democrats and the Republicans on how defense dollars are spent. Republicans (the party that I am affiliated with) tend to group veterans benefits and pensions in areas outside defense itself (which I do not consider a fair representation of the cost of defense). Internal estimates put all defense spending including veterans benefits at around 13-15% of GDP inclusive of the secret budgets allocated to No Such Agency and transfers to our ECHELON partners. No nation, including the US, is actually that forthcoming about their defense budget.

At the current rates, we cannot pay for our outlays. How we want to fix this, by increasing the burden on individuals, or by increasing the burden on corporations, or by cutting Defense or entitlements is problematic as one is dependent on the other. For instance, guess what happens if severe cuts happen to CMS? A significant portion (no one really knows except we know it has to be between what the early 1960s was prior to Medicare and today) people on this board would be out of a job fairly quickly, as much of your revenues come from CMS or CMS-derived insurance programs. If Defense is cut, not only would direct matters suffer, but Google, Facebook, and quite a number of the tech companies that are funded through Defense associated expenditures would take a major hit. Seattle and Long Beach would take major hits to their manufacturing as most of that is Defense related as well.

The argument is that no one wants to take the political consequences for unwinding since it deliberately victimizes a particular group, so until that happens, we will run into high deficits until fiat currency self-corrects. It happened in Weimar, but I think the more prescient example would be the 17th Century Dutch Republic or the present-day Japan, which didn't go bankrupt, but everyone was basically living hand to mouth on limited means after the East Indies fallout for over a century.

Having this argument about guns and butter is irrelevant because it's not possible to deal with the economic complexities by any policy mechanism anymore. There is no political solution out of this now, we arguably passed that threshold in 1992 or so and definitely post-2008. If you want to do something productive about the upcoming lean times, it would probably be around figuring out how to make your life less expensive. The advice when living in a lean time is that it isn't anarchy, it is just that you can't be profligate like right now. Every expense counts, and so we will have to multitask like learning how to do our own house repair work, cook our own food, clean our own houses, and vacations that aren't staycations are a rare treat. Basically, our lifestyles are all going to be like living only on Social Security and consumption declines naturally. I used to say that you should live like you did as students, except that this generation's students live at an economic state above what they will eventually make.

But at the same time, live it up. Travel, experience, and do things that require a major infrastructure, because that infrastructure is going to be more expensive shortly. For my wife and I, that is being gluttons and oenophiles since we do not expect the national logistics network to be as forgiving in the future as it is now bringing everything and anything from all the corners of the world into my Level B city.
 
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No, that would be Defense (and I mean more than just the DoD) and its constituent issues.

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/new/budgetinfographic.png

It's been a MAJOR point of contention between the Democrats and the Republicans on how defense dollars are spent. Republicans (the party that I am affiliated with) tend to group veterans benefits and pensions in areas outside defense itself (which I do not consider a fair representation of the cost of defense). Internal estimates put all defense spending including veterans benefits at around 13-15% of GDP inclusive of the secret budgets allocated to No Such Agency and transfers to our ECHELON partners. No nation, including the US, is actually that forthcoming about their defense budget.

At the current rates, we cannot pay for our outlays. How we want to fix this, by increasing the burden on individuals, or by increasing the burden on corporations, or by cutting Defense or entitlements is problematic as one is dependent on the other. For instance, guess what happens if severe cuts happen to CMS? A significant portion (no one really knows except we know it has to be between what the early 1960s was prior to Medicare and today) people on this board would be out of a job fairly quickly, as much of your revenues come from CMS or CMS-derived insurance programs. If Defense is cut, not only would direct matters suffer, but Google, Facebook, and quite a number of the tech companies that are funded through Defense associated expenditures would take a major hit. Seattle and Long Beach would take major hits to their manufacturing as most of that is Defense related as well.

The argument is that no one wants to take the political consequences for unwinding since it deliberately victimizes a particular group, so until that happens, we will run into high deficits until fiat currency self-corrects. It happened in Weimar, but I think the more prescient example would be the 17th Century Dutch Republic or the present-day Japan, which didn't go bankrupt, but everyone was basically living hand to mouth on limited means after the East Indies fallout for over a century.

Having this argument about guns and butter is irrelevant because it's not possible to deal with the economic complexities by any policy mechanism anymore. There is no political solution out of this now, we arguably passed that threshold in 1992 or so and definitely post-2008. If you want to do something productive about the upcoming lean times, it would probably be around figuring out how to make your life less expensive. The advice when living in a lean time is that it isn't anarchy, it is just that you can't be profligate like right now. Every expense counts, and so we will have to multitask like learning how to do our own house repair work, cook our own food, clean our own houses, and vacations that aren't staycations are a rare treat. Basically, our lifestyles are all going to be like living only on Social Security and consumption declines naturally. I used to say that you should live like you did as students, except that this generation's students live at an economic state above what they will eventually make.

But at the same time, live it up. Travel, experience, and do things that require a major infrastructure, because that infrastructure is going to be more expensive shortly. For my wife and I, that is being gluttons and oenophiles since we do not expect the national logistics network to be as forgiving in the future as it is now bringing everything and anything from all the corners of the world into my Level B city.

Actually no. Social welfare programs encompasses many parts of the budget and together make up the largest chunk of the budget (this includes Medicare, Medicaid, and hundreds of other programs). All of this adds up to 1 trillion dollars or more....the defense budget is nowhere near that. I think you should learn to understand what you are reading rather than just copying and pasting stuff.

Unless you have concrete evidence that military spending is 13-15% of GDP...I wouldn't use that in a debate. I'd like to see your source on that...otherwise it's not worth mentioning.

Policy Basics: Where Do Our Federal Tax Dollars Go?
 
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I'd be really surprised if there was any hard proof that either Democrats or Republicans donate more to charity. I don't have evidence either, but it feels like people of means are typically more likely to donate than those without, regardless of political affiliation. Living in the rural south, I see impoverished people on both sides of the spectrum and none of them can donate much beyond tithing to their church.

I hate taxes as much as the next person. I'm in the same boat as you. 30%+ of my income goes towards taxes. I pick up a side job to save more money and it feels like the increased tax burden wipes that out. However, I will begrudgingly accept that as part of the social contract. Public schools, police, fire departments, roads, we benefit from it all. I agree that the money probably isn't spent efficiently, and I would love to correct that. But I just can't get behind defunding our public services because we, collectively, get way more out of it than we would having to pay individually. With regard to defense.. man, we could cut that in half and still have the baddest force on the planet.


No, opposite, actually.
On the Economics of Philanthropy on JSTOR

The middle class (above median and below 5X FPL) and the WORKING class (above FPL and below median) are the #1 and #2 contributors to voluntary charity. The upper middle class and lower upper class are notoriously the worst. The speculated reason is that for the working class and the actual middle, that they are close enough to understand that whatever you think (by the grace of God or luck or whatever), the difference between you and the less fortunate is not as large a gulf as you think. Maybe you came from such circumstances.

Defense isn't just soldiers. We only maintain somewhere between 500 and 700k of actual uniformed personnel. It's all the money spent in procurement for the latest computers and aircraft. The reason why you and I can enjoy Nvidia video cards is that the research money into Titan paid for the advances in the last several generations. Without those subsidies, the cost of things would be very different. It's kind of like the effect of NIH on pharmaceutical research. It's always been a direct relationship, but the actual NIH to market is very hard if not impossible to establish except that very few scientists are brought up in completely government-free labs. Cutting Defense is not so simple, because most of those expenditures are toward specific groups rather than warfighting potential.
 
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Actually no. Social welfare programs encompasses many parts of the budget and together make up the largest chunk of the budget (this includes Medicare, Medicaid, and hundreds of other programs). All of this adds up to 1 trillion dollars....the defense budget is nowhere near that. I think you should learn to understand what you are reading rather than just copying and pasting stuff.

I understand your point if you literally read the top lines of the budget, but it's not that simple. Again, it's not that I am not reading as above, it really depends on how you break out veterans benefits and programs that are based on service readjustment or what happens to military research and procurement policies. The actual defense budget is not just the obvious category of "Defense" as I wrote, but much of the effects of the Defense budget are intentionally put into other categories including social welfare to disguise or hide their impact. It's been an issue with Medicare and VA right now in terms of patient interchange because the budget is allocated through Defense to CMS even though rolled up elsewhere. That's why cutting the Defense budget is such a problem, because it has those knock-on effects. Most of those social welfare benefits, good luck using if you aren't uniformed or past uniform.

Cutting entitlement programs for particularly Social Security won't have any meaning on our current elderly, because funds cut from Social Security would make the WWII and Korean veterans automatically eligible for VA pensioning. We actually have to calculate those offsets, and it's very hard to explain to the public that it's not possible to decouple programs from each other if they are dual eligibles. I'm not saying that the entitlement programs aren't a large expense, but what I am saying is that the budget buries Defense in more areas than what is reported. Even what I put out, there's explicit acknowledgement of veterans benefits and acquisitions in categories that don't obviously look like Defense.

Here's the real test. Try cutting Medicare and Medicaid, and see how much of that gets then placed in the VA budget. The last time that happen was the Clinton welfare reforms to TANF. All that did when it came to the actual cost was to shift a good part of the elder care parts of the budget to VA and other parts to law enforcement grants. That's why the CBO, GAO, and the politically elected have such problems estimating what really happens and that any audit of any program always ends up costing far more than anticipated, because of the complexities of the implementation.

I still hold to the issue that the Defense overall expenditures are the most overall. It's what I have to deal with when negotiating for budget with HHS and that we trade horses when on this matter.
 
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I understand your point if you literally read the top lines of the budget, but it's not that simple. Again, it's not that I am not reading as above, it really depends on how you break out veterans benefits and programs that are based on service readjustment or what happens to military research and procurement policies. The actual defense budget is not just the obvious category of "Defense" as I wrote, but much of the effects of the Defense budget are intentionally put into other categories including social welfare to disguise or hide their impact. It's been an issue with Medicare and VA right now in terms of patient interchange because the budget is allocated through Defense to CMS even though rolled up elsewhere. That's why cutting the Defense budget is such a problem, because it has those knock-on effects. Most of those social welfare benefits, good luck using if you aren't uniformed or past uniform.

Cutting entitlement programs for particularly Social Security won't have any meaning on our current elderly, because funds cut from Social Security would make the WWII and Korean veterans automatically eligible for VA pensioning. We actually have to calculate those offsets, and it's very hard to explain to the public that it's not possible to decouple programs from each other if they are dual eligibles. I'm not saying that the entitlement programs aren't a large expense, but what I am saying is that the budget buries Defense in more areas than what is reported. Even what I put out, there's explicit acknowledgement of veterans benefits in categories that don't obviously look like Defense.

No. I don't want you to tell me the data. Link your source where claims that defense spending is 13-15% of GDP...or you should retract that statement. I really want to see that source. You can't just throw out a random number like that and not expect to get called out on it.
 
No. I don't want you to tell me the data. Link your source where claims that defense spending is 13-15% of GDP...or you should retract that statement. I really want to see that source. You can't just throw out a random number like that and not expect to get called out on it.


The Real Defense Budget
is the popular version back from the day on just how much was out.

This is the long form of the study. It's not a random number, but no one really knows beyond what the official expenditures that are buried in other areas are.
The American Warfare State

The number matters, not necessarily because it's the largest, but Defense is the most pervasive of all the expenditures as it creeps into places where you would never expect.
 
The Real Defense Budget
is the popular version back from the day on just how much was out.

This is the long form of the study. It's not a random number, but no one really knows beyond what the official expenditures that are buried in other areas are.
The American Warfare State

The number matters, not necessarily because it's the largest, but Defense is the most pervasive of all the expenditures as it creeps into places where you would never expect.

The first is a clickbait article...the second link is theoretical at best. I fail to see how the US can finance an extra 1.5 trillion dollars every year in shadow projects and dark pool funds for the military without it being reflected elsewhere (such as the FED purchases and bond markets). So...no...none of this adds up. It's just simple math.
 
You people are all thinking in 2oth Century thought processes. Long game outlook...there isn't going to be any quality labor available for the average Joe and Jill. Transportation and service industries are going to be ravaged....AI is going to replace a lot of white collar work...its going to be a bloodbath. In a few generations, most of the type of people in this thread complaining about taxes are going to be just another working-class poor they currently despise having to help support. Economic opportunity gets chipped away day by day, year by year. Every second, the value of human labor decreases. Eventually, the average joe is either going to get a check for being alive...or the average joesa are going to start chopping off the heads of the rich people.

I'd be amused by either outcome.

Well, in theory if AI/automation (at some point) becomes more efficient and cheaper than human labor in all of these sectors than the costs of these goods and services should also decrease significantly for the end user. Providing a good/service at a lower costs due to increased efficiency ultimately raises the standard of living in that economy because the product is more accessible. This is why capitalism, in it's purest sense, is so rapidly progressive. Innovation/efficiency is rewarded and the standard of living for the consumer is increased.

Now the main fear is that low-skilled workers in these jobs will be thrown onto the street, but I think that this fear is overstated. Perhaps in 20 years from now there will be new sectors that do not even exist today, offering millions of jobs. How many jobs today are in technology? There was a day, not too long ago, when the average person had never even seen a computer. Another, even more recent example, cell phones. Verizon, AT&T, Sprint, TMobile.... these companies are worth billions and billions of dollars with stores in every city across the county employing many people. Jobs created out of thin air because of the same innovation that people are afraid of. This did not exist 20 years ago.

I don't know what the future holds, but I think that viewing the opportunity to increase efficiency and lower costs in a fearful way is not smart or progressive.
 
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