To all NRI's thinking of coming to India for their Education

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umm guys, if ur joinin kims this year.. when do u think is the best time to reach there? because college starts august 1st right?
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well that depends on whether or not you have already gotten the seat at the college... if college starts on the 1st... dunno if that date is actually correct... cuz they always say that they are pushing back the date to august or even earlier but in the end never really works out... but iono mabye in recent years may be true... i joined in 03 so go figure... anyways if you already have the seat then I would atleast, ATLEAST get here a month early to kind of settle in and find a place to rent... get some furniture... get the cleaning lady and cook figured out... ya know... i would want to be all set by the time school starts instead of doing that during school... but ya if you still have to get a seat... i would say early june would be a good time... contacting the admissions office even before that would be apt too...
 
yea i know wat u mean.. well i dont have to worry about all that coz i used to live there before and i got a house there n stuff.. so thers not problem with that, woah u joined in 03? this ur last year? well im pretty sure im gona get in coz im gettin in thru a paid seat. Im done school end of june so i cant make it ther before that. I think it does start on aug 1st not really sure though.. so im gona be ther in lik july.
 
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rish, just so i understand...you dont have a seat yet, but youre assuming youll get one because youre opting for a management seat, and youll be coming less than a month before classes start?

im not saying that this wont work, but i personally would not take a risk and close up shop where i am, to move to a place where my seat is not confirmed. granted, youre not coming in through testing, but quotas still exist for nri seats, management seats, and total number of seats.

since you have lived here before, you know that things are not very straight forward. yes, money can buy you a lot, i agree.. but better safe than sorry, i feel!

if you have relatives here, i would suggest you get paperwork started through them, so that you have some sort of seat confirmation...not only that, but you can get a better idea of when classes actually do start. from what ive heard at ms ramaiah, the new batches are coming in mid-july. (kims and msrmc usually start around the same time)
 
Hey guys thanks for all the information. I was wondering if there was an age limit to admittance to Indian medical colleges, and what if any thing could be done about it? I’ve heard it is 21 or 25, I am 27. Thnx
 
As far as I know there is no age limit in regards to getting admission into private medical colleges like KIMS and Manipal... Now I say private as I don't know about govt colleges as the only way into those institutions is by competing and maybe there maybe an age limit on the examination process for that... but I have a couple of friends who have come to india well into their late 20's so I don't think so. when you apply for a management seat, all they care about is the money really... so yeah you shouldn't have a problem... But if you really want to be sure... you should get in touch with an MCI( medical council of india) rep... or contact the schools you are looking at directly... im sure you can find a contact number on the net somewhere... hope that helps...
 
Thanks dggopal. I have another question and that is how exactly does the ‘donation’ system work? I have a connection with one school in India but I am unsure how it will turn out, hopefully I will find out soon.
1. Do you apply to a school and then find out the donation price?
2. What about agents there seems to be a negative view about them but I’ve heard they can guarantee admission? Any recommendations?
3. I’ve graduated college and I am worried about my gpa, I have good science scores but lets say I took the very scenic route through college, will my grades be a factor?
4. What sort of donation should I expect and which school has the lowest?
5. I am not of Indian descent which school is best from this perspective?
I know this is a lot guys but I just don’t know where else to find this info I apologize if it is posted somewhere else. Thanks guys
 
Last question guys is the donation all due up front I've heard rumors of half being due year one and the balance due at the beginning of year 2?
 
k 1) there is no "application process." you get here.. u choose a school and you start talks with the admissions staff directly... during ur talks with them a donation amount will be set... if agreeable you proceed and u pay the amount and you get a seat in the college. This is why its important to come early... so you wont have a problem getting a seat... as they are limited and as the number of seats goes down, the price goes up... so yeah... and yeah most colleges require the donation amount up front... but that takes care of tuition too... ummm only manipal has a payment plan that is yearly i think...

2)regarding agents... I never feel comfortable letting someone else do my work for me... there is a reason why colleges have an admissions office... for prospective students... and since living in this country... I have learned the hard way.... dumping money into some dudes lap with no real sort of assurance is not really advisable... also... when you put another person in between you and the seat... price goes up... the agent makes min 5 lakhs per seat... thats 10 grand for just getting you to sign some papers and take em to the college... also... getting to know the administrative staff of ur college is a good thing... if you ever need anything done like for your residential permit... you will need a letter stating you are a student at the college.... then it will help if you already know the staff... ya know..

3) college scores dont really matter... money talks... ur paying a donation to get into the college... as long as you have physics biology and chemistry you will be good... and that too at the high school level... not college level... so yeah...

4) donations keep changing every year... but im thinking now a days they maybe around 70 - 100 lakhs depending on which college you want... but u will find this out once you start talking to college staff...

5)what are you? white? I mean usually indian kids come here to study but its not a big deal... lots of foreigners in bangalore these days.... but yeah I guess you will be ok whereever you go... I want to say Manipal is a good choice for you... but then I always maintain that that school is a bit of a party school and it caters to NRI's..... among other issues I have with that school and its location... u can read previous posts of mine... im sure its in there.... ummm KIMS is a good choice.... its in bangalore so you live in a big city... I mean I go there... but yeah since you are not indian... then the previous posts about bathrooms and having ur own place are 100 times more valid... lol... india is not so bad if you have a nice place to come home to at the end of the day...

hope this helps...
 
First off thanks for the reply I’ve learned more from this forum than any other source. I am biracial so I am often mistaken for being another race including by Indians (born in the United States anyway). I am not too worried about race as I have been told India can be a very welcoming place. I’ve heard ‘as long as you don’t date anyone’s daughter and act unnecessarily arrogant you’ll be fine.’ If that is accurate I can live with that. I just have two more questions for now thanks again
1.) Can I start talking to the admissions people/ office from the states, in other words can I find out the donation price before I fly to India?
2.) Can you elaborate on the payment plan at Manipal
3.) I really appreciate the school recommendations I am looking into them are the donations listed about what I should expect?
Thanks again this has been really helpful.
 
yeah you may be able to get a hold of some admissions staff on the phone from america... but like I said in previous posts and like all of us learned once we came here.... In India nothing is done until its done in person... so yeah you may get a ball park figure on the phone but until you get here u can't take anything for certain...... regarding the payment plan in manipal... I don't know the current rates but back in 03 it was i think 18k per year or a lump sum donation amount... im pretty sure its gone up since then though... that university though im sure you could probably find something out on their website or by contacting their staff since they cater to NRI's... dunno what the current donation rates are like though... sorry... maybe I can find out in a couple of days...
 
Yay for Tex- mex... even if they don't do it like southern cali.... but ya Bangalore is the new proud owner of our very own Chillies (... baby back ribs!... had to be done) to alleviate the withdrawal symptoms from not having our daily fix of mexican food... wohoo... now all we need is a taco bell and we're set.
 
Thanks again for all the info I have been looking into the schools you suggested including the one you currently attend. I am still waiting to see if I got into this other school in India so I have just 2 more questions .... for now lol

1.) I have a physics class but its from almost ten years ago and I don't have Organic Chem (I have all other pre reqs at the college level) will this matter or as you said $ = admission?

2.) How late is too late to start the 'process' of getting in at either of these schools KIMS Manipal? like I said Im waiting to hear admittance info
 
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O yea one more thing, I've read that some of the newer schools have much lower donations. Does anyone know which schools these are and would it be worth it to attend them? while I'm looking any schools some one recomends besides the two dggopal recomended KIMS, Manipal(which I do like for the record and I'm already heavily investigating them)? Thanks
 
yeah basically its a formality.... as long as u have physics written on ur transcripts its fine... and o chem isnt needed here... i came straight out of high school remember... hah...

coming to how late is too late... it all depends man... some people come last minute and end up getting a seat but end up paying more... thats why its important to get the ball rolling as soon as possible... I would recommend really getting into the admissions process around mid june... the thing is that until then all the things arent set up yet so people will just be enquiring about general info and then pounce into action once they get the go ahead from the admissions office which happens around june to july... so keep in touch with the admissions staff and make sure they know your name and stuff... slip a few bills to em just to ya know... keep em happy... couple hundered rupees doesn't hurt anyone... and that way you can get their number and just call to find out whats goin on... and they wont give you a run around....

regarding newer schools..... see the thing is... as it is foreign schools dont really have a rep back home... so if you go to KIMS or more so for Manipal... at least it will carry some weight... ya know... cuz admissions staff will have maybe heard of the school if not known a student from their before.... ya know... and also old schools have better teachers cuz no one wants to teach at a no reputation school...everyone wants to teach at a prestigious institution... ya know... so thats my take on it... but yeah found out from some students that donation these days is running around 45-60 lakhs... translating into around 100 to 120k in dollars... guess I was wrong about the 100 lakhs....
 
Just a bit of an update on the admissions for KIMS.... In the Times of India bangalore newpaper today the chairman of KIMS was accused of "auctioning" management seats.... I think a few days ago a college in Chennai was also caught for this too.... now the thing is that the chairman was quoted to have said that price would range from 50- 60 lakhs for donation inclusive of tuition... so i guess that is cleared up.... Only thing is.... now that the story has hit the papers who knows what the effect will be on the actual admissions process and the price....
 
hello dggopal,

well i read thru most of this thread..and honestly it is just what i wanted to know...uv done some serious effort in here...really helps!

well i too like many will be joining kims soon...am an nri from saudi arabia...always wanted to be into medicine...i'm from b'lore and back in hometown after 17 years...for med school...kims is one of the best and nearby home..so i opted for it...
but many frnds and family ppl around...are advising me to go for bds..as i still havent done the payment..but anyway i'm mentally prepared for mbbs.
the thing is i am a smart student..and anything and everything with with bio fascinated me..but over the years..speacially with +2 years of puc..i'v grown very overconfident..showing gradual decrease in my academic performance...i dont wish to do that in mbbs now...i really wanna do well and score high..
so if u could just tell me how many hours daily should i put in?minimum that is..
and besides do mbbs students have suppelementary/compartment examz? in case they dont make it in nay subject?...i mean do we have to carry the subjects to next yr or we repeat a year coz of one back?

which are the subjects generally to be concentrated on the most? i think its biochemistry...maybe :S

and basically what all are the key factors to be successful in first year?...is first year the toughest?

when do we have the first set of internals?what is the passing grade ?

i know this is just crazy bombardment of qns...but i am really looking forward for a reply....and for all the posts/threads/msgs u have put up..i really appreciate the effort.. :D
 
Special R said:
Here is my story.

I am a MBBS student born and raised outside of India, in the North American continent. Just like the others, I was thrilled about the idea going to India, doing my medschool to cut down on time and money. I finished highschool with a decent average, got into a well-established university and did one year of undergrad. I wasn't too thrilled about my first year performance, and I figured that getting into medschool would be a challenge despite of straining myself day and night.

If anyone has done studies in NA, you would know that an average student's life revolves around tutorials, lectures, work, 3 hrs of sleep, commuting for hours (if the uni isn't close), work, tutorials and then an exam~! Though, in comparison to India, you don't pass or fail just based on your finals cause most of the work is accumulative. Though finals do count for much.. still there is hope.

So anyways, after literally wasting 10 grand on one year of uni, I decided to move out of the country and do medschool overseas. I landed in India and there I joined a private/govt medical college. This is one college that I had no clue about, my first mistake. I had never visited this remote place. I had no idea, about anything. All I know was based on what my uncle and aunt had said. Even they themselves didn't know much about the college. So when I finally got here..

I was in for a surprise. This college has nothing. No facilities. No internet. Hostels are literally filthy, we have cats running around here and there. Unclean water (its literally yellow), and there are snakes in the outyard.. fun stuff!

Now, I'm not that fluent in the local language. I can't read nor write, so commuting is difficult. Extremely difficult. The buses aren't hybrid and smooth like we get over here. It's bumpy and rough rides.. so if you ever get into a local bus, just make you hold on tightly! LOL

Anyways, so I joined my first year course. I paid a huge amount to get in nonetheless, less than what I would pay here. Yet, if you add up all additional costs, its about the same or more. So if you think it's cheaper, well think again!

You're roughly paying 100-150 grand USD in NRI Quota. That is the common number in ALL medical colleges across the nation, I believe. So, it's not that much of a diff compared to how much you would be paying in States. Besides, you could even work a part-time job to pay some off in States, here that's not possible.

So.. I paid a lump sum because this was what I really wanted to do and I didn't want to wait four years to find out I didn't make into medschool. So I chose the EASY PATH..

Now, my second mistake. Something NO FRESHMAN, is EVER supposed to do especially an NRI! It is to slack off. I had this notion that I could 'pull it off' in the end like I have been doing all my life. WRONG! Indian education is VERY much different than anywhere. It's rigid. It's pure memorization. If you can 'mug it up' not 'pull it off' .. you'll pass! You have to have the stamina to sit there and memorize the whole bloody Chaurasia/Greys Anatomy, or AK Jain/Ganong. Byhearting is the way to go! I never did it. I had an idea about every topic, but those medical terms wouldn't click as fast. I struggled throughout the year, sessionals were horrible for me, and I thought Uni exam would come through for me...

Honestly, in one year I went through some major changes in my life. I struggled with the language. I had trouble interacting with the locals, classmates, teachers and just about anyone =P Academics weren't all that great.. I was in some serious depression. I cried days after days, night after nights. I just couldn't take it. Everyone was so narrowminded. People had trouble understanding my accent. I didn't even know about 'ragging', when I joined. I was dragged into it for first few months. To be honest, I think I saw hell for the first time.. =P

I foresaw most of it, and I truly believed I could handle it. But time and circumstances turned the tables around, and I was in a state where I was ready to fly back home.

I might be an odd case, or a common amongst those NRI kids nonetheless, bottom line is I was betrayed by desire and instincts. The need to become something valued by society was at the peak of my mind, never did I ask once.. Am I making the right decision?

Time is now, 4:05 am EST and I'm writing this because two hours ago I found out I failed my 1st Year MBBS Examination. I'm in the 'repeaters' batch, which means additional 6 months to finish my course. I have to pay extra fees. After all, I'm Indian, I now welcome the mental trauma of humiliation from family and friends.

So I ask..

Where is the saving of time? Money?


Best wishes
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i wud say this isthe story of majority of NRIs so think ahead.... n then cum 2 india
 
hmmmmm.... over confidence isn't a problem in this field... once you get here and see the calibre of study required i think that confidence will come down on its own... I'm not saying u aren't intelligent I'm just saying if you see people around you studying for say 5 hours a day you are likely to at least put in an hour... i cant say how much is necessary for you because I don't know your apptitude... but if you are that scared of failing then you will be that much more inclined to study right.... umm first year you get held back if you fail any subject... after that second and third year you can carry on to the next year... as in if i fail second year i can still go to 3rd year but have to clear 2nd year exams before 3rd year exams... final year you have to pass all the subjects or you get held back....
 
i c..thats some serious peice of advise i should keep in mind! thanx a ton for the reply i really appreciate it.!
:)
 
Moral of the story u cant buy a degree..

NA education system is so far behind in terms of knowledge it is really like saying a 10th grade in india is equivalent to high school grad in NA. this mostly because of emphasis on communication and application more than Maths and sciences..

I think any NA student wanting to study in india should come after 1 or 2 years in college.. which actaully defeats the purpose of going and studing in india..

Best course is to have kids do their schooling in india..Which is far far better than the NA education system.. There are some merits to cramming.. that people will never realize..
 
my friend.... i must strongly yet humbly disagree... though the material taught to students here in India is more competitive the idea of cramming is seriously hindering progress in this country....

students learn to memorize in India whereas students abroad learn to apply what they learn to solve problems... case in point the fact that Indian students can recite text from text books perfectly but ask them a simple question that needs the application of that text and they are left scratching their heads.... this does not happen in America... where students are encouraged to digest the info in books and reproduce it in their own words during exams.... this process helps ensure students are UNDERSTANDING what they read.... here in India this process is discouraged and punished by lesser marks... for example if the student here writes in his own words during exams he secures less marks than the student that reproduces all the headings and text word for word as seen in the text book... this occurs though the student that puts the info in his own words may understand the info better..

regarding coming here after a year or two in college... I don't think thats necessary provided the student is driven and is sure of his career choice in Medicine... why waste time doing pre med courses like english literatute and music that have nothing to do with the end career... only in America are these required to obtain ur degree... and imo they are such a waste of money and time....

if you disagree outline for me the merits of cramming versus actually understanding the concepts....
 
dggopal said:
True the US system of education is very expensive... you will be paying around 300 grand for undergraduate studies alone if your son chooses to go to a UC school... if he chooses to go to a private school then even more...
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Have you lost your damn mind? A UC education is about 20K per year room+board. That's 80K for all 4 years. Even an education at the most expensive of private schools is 50K per year. You are obviously very misinformed, and it is really quite difficult for me to take your "facts" seriously.

On more thing: if you work hard enough here in the U.S. , you can get a full ride to college and then get accepted to a state medical/dental school. In the end, you'll pay 200K for med/dent school. Or, you can get into a 7-year program under a scholarship and pay even less.
 
hmmm... I tried to locate the actual post where I said that but was unable to... wondering if its in this thread... anyways

the quote of 20k a year is for those who are in state and elect to stay at home... when I quoted 300k it was a bit hight but I was reffering to out of state college goers ... and if you take that into account... looks more like 50k a year... and thats 200k for 4 years... also I dunno bout you but I would have to take a loan even if my parents were helping me with college payments.... Lets add interest to that 200k.... and its even more if i defer payments till I graduate.....suppose, like many people... I decide to change majors or if I apply to med school and get rejected so I decide I have to do a masters cuz a bachelours is not enough.... then that figure just keeps going up doesn't it.... The point is... education in India is way cheaper and you becoming a doctor at the end of the day is more sure to happen... seeing that you don't have to struggle to get into med school.

I personally have spent 65k on admissions and tuition for the whole medical coarse in india and the rest I spent is on just living expenses which are far less than in america.... till date i have spend close to 150k max and I only have a few more months in India...

The point I was making I think in my original post is that education is less costly in India... and ur not gonna have to struggle to get into medical school if you come here.... and i think that also addresses your point about seven year programs... which I have also talked about earlier in this thread...
 
dggopal said:
my friend.... i must strongly yet humbly disagree... though the material taught to students here in India is more competitive the idea of cramming is seriously hindering progress in this country....

students learn to memorize in India whereas students abroad learn to apply what they learn to solve problems... case in point the fact that Indian students can recite text from text books perfectly but ask them a simple question that needs the application of that text and they are left scratching their heads.... this does not happen in America... where students are encouraged to digest the info in books and reproduce it in their own words during exams.... this process helps ensure students are UNDERSTANDING what they read.... here in India this process is discouraged and punished by lesser marks... for example if the student here writes in his own words during exams he secures less marks than the student that reproduces all the headings and text word for word as seen in the text book... this occurs though the student that puts the info in his own words may understand the info better..

regarding coming here after a year or two in college... I don't think thats necessary provided the student is driven and is sure of his career choice in Medicine... why waste time doing pre med courses like english literatute and music that have nothing to do with the end career... only in America are these required to obtain ur degree... and imo they are such a waste of money and time....
if you disagree outline for me the merits of cramming versus actually understanding the concepts....
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The reason that a lot of schools have extra required classes is to make people more well rounded and make sure that they have knowledge on a variety of things. Although I would rather just have a science curriculum I do see the advantages of having this system.
 
I'm choosing to stay in the U.S. and go to a state school. My parents will likely foot the bill for my undergrad in bio for about $80K. Then I plan to get acceptance into a state dental school and take out loans for approx. $200K.

Will I spend more time and money: YES!

However, will I be a more well rounded, and better educated student: YES!

Will I happier: YES!

Will this make it much easier for me to become more than a GP (residency): YES!

Will this give me confidence as I KNOW that I'll be able to gain acceptance: YES!

I guess some people like to take the easiest way; however I wish to prove to myself and others what I am capable of. I love the US, and wish to stay here. To me, something seems sleazy and wrong about paying a "donation" to get into a school. It's like your paying for a degree and not for an education. And that is what is offsetting in this whole process to me, not that I have anything against India or Indian-educated health professionals, in fact I've attend several years of school in India (and learned India is just about memorization, and not about truly learning and understanding the material); I simply have no respect for those who pay their way through medical/dental school simply because they are lazy.
 
Anishaannayya,

I have no idea what in the world made you think that studying in India was the easier way out, but you are extremely mistaken. As far as memorizing goes, yes, I agree that it is a drawback, but ultimately it is up to the student to choose how he or she wants to learn. A student coming from the states to India will not be interested in memorizing, and will ensure that he learns and understands a topic.

Doctors here have the ability to diagnose patients without fancy machines and labs, simply because they understand their concepts so well. Any doctor in the states has never learnt this concept, because they are so used to relying upon different machines, scans, and whatnot.

For students who study abroad and then head back to the states, they have to learn a whole different method of studying, adapt to the lifestyle, and change their study habits not once, but twice. (Coming to India, and then going back.)

The students who come to India and study will ultimately HAVE to learn with understanding in order to sit the USMLE's and pass with a good score (especially since a higher score is required for FMG's to place in a decent residency program).

Indian students learn in a very detailed and in-depth manner that American students do not. I speak from what I have observed in my brother and best friend, who are doing their medicine in the states. I am not saying that one system is better than the other, because each has its pros and cons. I am saying, however, that the Indian system is in no way lacking or the "easiest way" as you say.

Someone who comes to study in India, and succeeds is in no way lazy. That person has to put their effort into more than just studying. Everything is different and extremely demanding. We put up with more than any American student ever will. If I have ever discouraged someone from coming to India to study, it has been because things here are tough. Not because school is a joke or life is easy.

Giving a donation does not mean you are buying yourself a degree. It means you are paying a fee to be allowed to attend that medical college as a non-Indian student.
American schools do the same. Compare your college fees to those of a foreign student, or even out of state student. There will be a ginormous difference! We still have to attend classes like everyone else, and put in just as much effort, if not more.

The only difference between you and I is that you decided to stay in a place that you were comfortable and happy with, you are confident that you will have a position in a residency program, and your education may be more well-rounded.

All in all, the foreign graduate has chosen to move to a place that is new and scary, and will work harder to make sure he gets that residency seat. Who, then, has it easier? You do!

Until you know the system or have been here, you really have no right to pass judgement or belittle the people who have studied here. It makes you look ignorant, and quite disrespectful.
 
LOL.... you seem pretty sure of how things are here in India. Lol that too without ever stepping foot in one of our medical college classes or even seeing how our doctors treat patients.

Doctors here don't have the luxury of treating only 50 patients a day and that too with fancy shmancy investigative techniques... thats not to say that we don't have these technologies but who has the money to pay for them... here in India we LEARN to treat patients by hand... an art that is lost and possibly never even taught in America... and through this method we save time and are able to treat more patients than an American doctor could ever dream of treating in one day... some of my teachers treat close to 150 patients a day.... fact. These same teachers studied in Indian institutions... memorizing as you say and not "Truly learning and understanding the material." your comments are laughable... and show how young you turly must be. Let me tell you... education in India and I believe Med school anywhere... should be and is nothing short of grueling... and those who elect to come here for it don't simply coast through without any real knowledge... we study our back ends off... harder in my opinion than American grads... because our exams are not multiple guess... they are essay based... and so yes we have to memorize text... so we can reproduce it on paper... and not simply choose which answer seems best...

regarding being lazy... I think its easier to be lazy where attendance in class is not mandatory... in a place where Saturdays are days to relax... that's right we have class on Saturdays... In places where the summer is for the beach... Please... refrain from judging something you know very little about...
 
Emmet.. ya I know that well roundedness is why those course requirements are there... and thats great... I mean I suppose those classes are there so people can experience different things to DECIDE what they want to do... but for me and many others who have already decided what they want to do... its a major waste of time and effort...

I mean.... I love science... and since I'm passionate about it I will work hard at it... but something like music, when its a course requirement, is not something I will work hard at... because I don't really care about it enough. I mean it great for colleges to have such courses in America... I love that... but to FORCE it on you is not agreeable... thats just what I think... But the merits of such a system in case someone is undecided of their career choice are invaluable....
 
Hi everyone,

I am from Vancouver, Canada. I am currently in third year, doing bachelors of Science. I am interested in the field of medicine. However, my cumulative GPA is not high (its 3.1). I can work hard these 2 years and bring it upto 3.3 which I think is still not high enough. So I don't think I have any chances here in Canada or US.
I am considering to go to KMC-IC in march 2010. I heard about their twinning program (2 yrs in India, 2 yrs in USA for clinical rotations) and I found it very interesting. But I want to know if its fully accredited by ECFMG?
Will I be able to write USMLEs after moving to US?
What are the chances that I will get a residency? I heard that since we will be foreign graduates, there are very few chances of getting residency regardless of our scores in USMLEs.
Will my USMLE score affect the clinical rotations?
Roughly how many indian graduates/carribean graduates get in residency in US? anyone knows the stats?

Please help me. I don't know if I'm making the right decision.
What are some of the other good medical schools in India that are accredited by ECFMG?
I am very lost and I don't know what to do :(
 
simply_me said:
Hi everyone,

I am from Vancouver, Canada. I am currently in third year, doing bachelors of Science. I am interested in the field of medicine. However, my cumulative GPA is not high (its 3.1). I can work hard these 2 years and bring it upto 3.3 which I think is still not high enough. So I don't think I have any chances here in Canada or US.
I am considering to go to KMC-IC in march 2010. I heard about their twinning program (2 yrs in India, 2 yrs in USA for clinical rotations) and I found it very interesting. But I want to know if its fully accredited by ECFMG?
Will I be able to write USMLEs after moving to US?
What are the chances that I will get a residency? I heard that since we will be foreign graduates, there are very few chances of getting residency regardless of our scores in USMLEs.
Will my USMLE score affect the clinical rotations?
Roughly how many indian graduates/carribean graduates get in residency in US? anyone knows the stats?

Please help me. I don't know if I'm making the right decision.
What are some of the other good medical schools in India that are accredited by ECFMG?
I am very lost and I don't know what to do :(
Click to expand...

Alot depends on where you want to ultimately practice...US or Canada.
All caribbean schools have 2 yrs of clinical rotations in the US. I don't see any significant advantage Manipal would offer. Rotations are more or less guranteed if you come from reputed schools like SGU/Ross/AUC. Many other schools are not approved by medical boards of all states and hence you can't practice in all 50 US states upon graduation. Your USMLE step1 score (unless you fail it) shouldn't affect your core rotations of third year. They will (more importantly) play a role during residency. It is getting more and more difficult for international graduates to match in the US and you'd have to be prepared to enter Internal medicine, family medicine, peds, psych or maybe ob/gyn. Chances of getting into competitive residencies will be very bleak. Indian education system offers no significant advantage if you ultimately want to go to the US. And you can look into the match lists of any of the caribbean schools to see where their graduates go. I'd also advice you to stay vary of all schools except the big 3/4.

Also the twining program is affiliated with AUA i believe, which is a relatively new school and is not approved by medical boards of all 50 states. I would advise you to not head out to the big 3/4 unless you absolutely have to.
 
I don't see why there is such a war of words, that too between somebody who hasn't even set foot in india and somebody who is still in his undergrad mbbs.

The point is that both systems are really not comparable. And both are right in their own respective ways. If some1 tells me that the indian education system is geared to prepare one for the USMLEs, i'd say the person is really misinformed. Take it from somebody who has been through 5 years of college in india already. The system is best suited for those who wish to stay in india. Does that mean that an mbbs graduate is not as knowledgable as an MD ? ofcourse not. Medical education requires cramming. Period. If somebody tells me that they understand the "concept" behind the mechanism of action of 500 different drugs or the line of Rx for a patient of pulmonary TB, i'd say they're bluffing. Ofcourse you can't blindly memorize matter unless it makes an iota of sense. But in the end, it is about having facts on your tips. I don't think the lady in 2-3 posts above is familiar with the subject matter for the USMLEs. You'd be surprised how much learning is involved in subjects like anatomy and biochemistry. And that's just year 1. Let's not even get to medicine and surgery.

So for any1 who wants to go to the US ultimately, staying in the US is a wiser option even if it takes 2-3 attempts. In the grand scheme of things you'd be better off. That said, sometimes, heading to an international medical school maybe the ONLY one may have.

A physician's competence is based on his knowledge and more importantly, the ability to apply that knowledge. Not on which medical school he graduated from.
 
schandan13 said:
Alot depends on where you want to ultimately practice...US or Canada.
All caribbean schools have 2 yrs of clinical rotations in the US. I don't see any significant advantage Manipal would offer. Rotations are more or less guranteed if you come from reputed schools like SGU/Ross/AUC. Many other schools are not approved by medical boards of all states and hence you can't practice in all 50 US states upon graduation. Your USMLE step1 score (unless you fail it) shouldn't affect your core rotations of third year. They will (more importantly) play a role during residency. It is getting more and more difficult for international graduates to match in the US and you'd have to be prepared to enter Internal medicine, family medicine, peds, psych or maybe ob/gyn. Chances of getting into competitive residencies will be very bleak. Indian education system offers no significant advantage if you ultimately want to go to the US. And you can look into the match lists of any of the caribbean schools to see where their graduates go. I'd also advice you to stay vary of all schools except the big 3/4.

Also the twining program is affiliated with AUA i believe, which is a relatively new school and is not approved by medical boards of all 50 states. I would advise you to not head out to the big 3/4 unless you absolutely have to.
Click to expand...

thanks so much for replying.
first of all, I am ready to practice either in US or Canada. And I considered Indian school (instead of carribean school) because I am more comfortable living in India than Carribean. I speak the local language, so communication won't be a problem. I want to experience Indian culture. Originally, I am from India so I know how it is living-wise. I am not too comfortable with the idea of going to carribean that is why I am not considering carribean at all.

I found Manipal interesting because it is the only school in India I believe that sends the students to US for clinical rotation and awards MD degree (instead of MBBS). But my main concern is if I will run into any problems after I finish MD? Let's say I didn't do well on USMLE, how many times can I write USMLE? Let's say I do really really well on USMLE, would I be able to get residency where I want most likely? or will I still be given lower preference as I have MD degree from Manipal/AUA?
I think KMC-IC twinning program is not accredited in California. Let's say I finish the residency somewhere in US and I get the licensure to practice in US. Will I be able to practice anywhere then in the country? this maybe a stupid question to ask but I need to be clear on this.
 
schandan 13, are you a medical student? if you don't mind me asking, which medical school do u go to? and where did you do ur undergraduate degree from?
 
simply_me said:
schandan 13, are you a medical student? if you don't mind me asking, which medical school do u go to? and where did you do ur undergraduate degree from?
Click to expand...

Trust me, there is nothing that gung-ho about the indian medical education system. Manipal is one of the better known private universities which caters to indians from other countries, but that doesn't mean it ranks as a great university overall. 50% of their seats go to management/nri quota. So really, there are many party goers who go to manipal simply because their parents wanted them to. That aside, indian culture can be experienced in the other schools as well. You don't neccessarily need to come to india for that. I sincerely advise you to look at the quality of education only at this point and not worry about other factors.

USMLE step 1 scores stick with you if you pass them once. Meaning, if you get >75, you are declared pass even if that means you will get nowhere in terms of landing a residency spot. The scores are valid for 7 years i believe and for foreign medical graduates, anything less than 95 on both steps would make it challenging to get interview calls. Another very important thing are your "clinical clerkship grades". How you fair on your rotations is currently a rank above the step 1 scores in terms of what residency program directors look at in an applicant.

AUA is a considered a 2nd (maybe 3rd) tier school in the caribbean. Ofcourse students do well no matter which school they go to, but things like the 3rd and 4th year rotations are not guranteed with some of these schools. Students need to shuttle between different states for different cores and that can be frustrating for some. That said, you will get to hear horror stories about each and every school. If you want to practice in canada, its imperative you try and go to school there itself. If you want to settle in the US, try for a US MD or DO school. I believe with a stellar MCAT, you could have a chance at some DO schools. Canadians still at times make it to US schools. International students (non CAN) without credits from an accredited canadian or US university aren't even considered at times for MD or DO. Also mind you, manipal isn't cheap. (if that's a driving factor). Outsiders are discriminated against in india, many a times students are held from appearing in exams, they're flunked and made to repeat a year, the adjustment isn't at easy as it might seem to you sitting in canada. (no offense)

As for licensing issues, you may complete your residency anywhere but certain states would not let you practice if you are from a school that is not approved by their medical board. SGU/Ross/AUC/Saba are 50 state approved.

IMHO i don't think any college in india offers any significant advantage over other international schools. The curriculum isn't geared to prep one for the MLEs and the overall administrative hassle/bureaucracy is really not worth it.

I'll PM you my CV ! Gluck.
 
hey your advice is dead on... I agree that to stay in the US is a better idea when the end goal is to practice there....

On another note( even though I think you were talking about someone else) regarding the war of words earlier in this thread:
I feel I must defend what I said:

-Most importantly this forum and this thread is for people coming to India to practice medicine or for those thinking about it... not those who wish to bad mouth coming here or those who have no interest in coming here for that purpose... Thats not to say that others can't ask questions... but there is a way to do so without disrespecting those who did choose to come to India to study ( I personally took offense to "I simply have no respect for those who pay their way through medical/dental school simply because they are lazy")

- That being said.... I don't think I, nor anyone else, was all that bad in our replies... and not nearly as disrespectful as the above statement...what we said was pretty true... or at least I thought so... anyways I tried going through the posts and didn't see what post you disagreed with regarding USMLE topics in terms of biochem and anat... but I do agree they are very important especially when it comes to anatomy and surgery...

anyways... I too am curious in knowing what you are currently doing... are you practicing in the states? can you hook a brother up with some rotations back home... haha...
 
also... I think you should post ur question in the american section of sdn too... I remember reading that forum a while back and saw some similar posts regarding gpa's like yours and the responses weren't a flat out "no you can't get in"

I wouldn't count you out just yet man... but yeah see what they have to say too...
 
Thank you guys for replying but the thing is that I don't see any chances here in Canada or US as my GPA is quite low. Even after I complete my bachelors (and say my cGPA is bumped upto 3.3), I still think I have few chances to get into a canadian or US medical school. That was the reason I was considering to go to India.

I don't want to waste 2 years in bumping up my GPA and eventually get rejected from medical schools here. If I know I will get rejected, I should think of an alternative now. What school do you guys recommend?
How about schools in bangalore? or up in Punjab? I know they don't send students to US for clinical rotations but I heard their quality of education is better than many other schools.
Please advise me.
Thanks.

Dggopal, what medical school do you attend if you dont mind me asking?
 
UMmm... regarding alternative med schools... I would suggest you take a look at schools in england that are catered to americans, and then take a look at carribeans next, and after that indian schools... one of my frients is going to a school in england and he loves it there... plus many of those schools allow for rotations in america... so thats a very big plus...

I go to Kempegowda Institute of Medical Sciences( KIMS)... it's in Bangalore.
 
My post was to point out a rather immature judgement which the other poster made regarding the indian system being very memorising-based. Basically the step 1 has tons of memorising too, beyond the basic understanding of concepts ofcourse. But nobody can survive medicine without cramming. And that's what i was trying to point out.

The only respectable schools in india are the govt run ones. May that be the ones in bangalore or punjab. Adjustment would depend on your ethinicity, like if you're a bengali/punjabi/tamil...accordingly you should choose a school in east/north/south india. Remember outsiders are discriminated against either way, but you'd be better off if you atleast gel somewhat with the local students. (for example, it will be tough being a sikh in south india, the NRI issue aside).

State schools also have an issue with domicile. All GMCs in punjab are top notch as are the ones all over india IMHO.

Rotations would be tough for you to arrange without passing step 1 and reaching your internship in india. I'd advise you to narrow down your choices for clerkships and apply in time. Spots in popular places like Weill Cornell fill up really quickly.
 
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Dggapal, the thing with the European medical schools (in England especially), they are very very expensive, more than the US schools. That is why I thought of going to India and doing medicine there. Since you yourself said that its better to stay in here in Canada/US, why did you decide to go to Indian medical school (KIMS)? And how is your school by the way? Will you go to US for clinical rotations or in India? If in India, wouldnt it be hard to get residency in US (i m assuming you want to practice in US).

Schandan13, what would you advice me? Since I do not see myself in a US and Canadian medical school (because of my low GPA), would going to Indian med school a better option? I am ready to study hard and work my way through. If not Manipal, what are some of the other reputed schools in India? I think gov't indian med schools are only for those who want to practice in India, right? What are some of the other good valuable private indian medical schools?
By the way, my birthplace is New Delhi and I have done my elementary/middle school from Chandigarh. So you can call me a Punjabi.

Please advice. I need to make a decision soon. Thanks!
 
simply_me said:
Dggapal, the thing with the European medical schools (in England especially), they are very very expensive, more than the US schools. That is why I thought of going to India and doing medicine there. Since you yourself said that its better to stay in here in Canada/US, why did you decide to go to Indian medical school (KIMS)? And how is your school by the way? Will you go to US for clinical rotations or in India? If in India, wouldnt it be hard to get residency in US (i m assuming you want to practice in US).

Schandan13, what would you advice me? Since I do not see myself in a US and Canadian medical school (because of my low GPA), would going to Indian med school a better option? I am ready to study hard and work my way through. If not Manipal, what are some of the other reputed schools in India? I think gov't indian med schools are only for those who want to practice in India, right? What are some of the other good valuable private indian medical schools?
By the way, my birthplace is New Delhi and I have done my elementary/middle school from Chandigarh. So you can call me a Punjabi.

Please advice. I need to make a decision soon. Thanks!
Click to expand...

You must give the mcats and see where you land up score wise. I'd say SGU/Ross/AUC/Saba are anyday a better option in terms of coming to the US and doing a residency. I'm not going to speak about their quality of education as I haven't had first hand experience with it, but yes, if 300 of your class mates are all preparing for a single exam, your drive to ace it goes up too. As for India, given that you're a punjabi (like me, ssa!) i'd really stick to colleges in North India. GMCH Chandigarh is a very highly reputed college so is GMC Amritsar and GMC Patiala. Among private colleges, DMC Ludhiana is one college NRIs choose very often since govt colleges are really tough to get into even on an NRI seat. Bear in mind that private colleges don't in anyway prepare you for the USMLEs. Govt colleges don't either, but you have a competitive pool of candidates studying with you, the system is a little more transparent, you wouldn't be flunked if you know your subject matter and generally have a more academics oriented time. In private colleges, there sometimes are no rules. The admin doesn't answer to anyone, you could fail an exam simply cuz you are an NRI. Yes, adjustment would be easier since you'd have half your class paying their way through MBBS, which many in govt colleges would frown upon (i disagree personally).

As for south india, i'd recommend Kasturba Medical College ONLY.

As for the USMLEs, if you choose india, you'd have to rely on self study.
Same for rotations. You could hope to get 2-3 months of visitng clerkships in the US, that too only during your internship once you've completed your MBBS.
 
Schandan13, ssa/namaste! thanks for the advice. I still think that staying here in canada would waste my time. I would rather prefer going to a different country and studying hard for medical school instead of working hard towards my GPA that still doesnt give me guarantee that i WILL get into med school.
I am still not clear on few things:
Should I apply for Kasturba medical school - the regular program (for Indian residents) or its Twinning program (2 yrs India + 2 yrs US for clinical rotations)? Since I want to practice in US, twinning program would make more sense but it's not accredited in all 50 states.
Lets say I go for the twinning program there, and I didn't do well on my USMLE, what do I do then? Do I keep giving USMLE till I get a better score to get a residency? What do students usually do if they don't get a residency? Go back to India to practice there (but the twinning program is not recognized by MCI)??

From carribean med schools, what do students if they do not get a residency spot because of their low USMLE score?
 
simply_me said:
Schandan13, ssa/namaste! thanks for the advice. I still think that staying here in canada would waste my time. I would rather prefer going to a different country and studying hard for medical school instead of working hard towards my GPA that still doesnt give me guarantee that i WILL get into med school.
I am still not clear on few things:
Should I apply for Kasturba medical school - the regular program (for Indian residents) or its Twinning program (2 yrs India + 2 yrs US for clinical rotations)? Since I want to practice in US, twinning program would make more sense but it's not accredited in all 50 states.
Lets say I go for the twinning program there, and I didn't do well on my USMLE, what do I do then? Do I keep giving USMLE till I get a better score to get a residency? What do students usually do if they don't get a residency? Go back to India to practice there (but the twinning program is not recognized by MCI)??

From carribean med schools, what do students if they do not get a residency spot because of their low USMLE score?
Click to expand...

See here's the thing. If you don't do well on your USMLE, you really don't have a choice. All you might be able to do is improve your CV by doing some worthwhile research, get published as 1st author, clear the remainder of the 2 steps and apply for residency anyway. There are 3 steps you must clear before you start residency, and step 2 has a CS and CK exam. So if you don't do well one step 1, say 85, you must aim for a 99 on step 2. That said, step 1 scores are the most important, so you're doomed one way or the other.

The whole idea behind caribbean schools is to put students on track towards a US residency and do well on the boards. While the level of education can vary, the number of students from say SGU/Ross who get a residency each year are higher than those from say KIMS/Manipal. Given that those who get a spot in their first shot are actually US citizens but others (canadians etc) get spots too. Maybe a year later. So, you really need to decide where you plan to head.

You may goto India to practice, where MCI holds a screening exam to allow indian nationals who have obtained their medical degree outside india to come and practice.

If you are looking to keep options open, are in no rush age wise, i suggest the regular mbbs at KMC/GMC is the way to go. If you are more interested in entering the US somehow and doing a residency there, all caribbean schools will offer you a chance. You'd just HAVE TO HAVE TO ace the MLEs.

Most students who don't do well on both steps for example with some1 who has 95/92/CS pass, they may not get anything the 1st time, but then they reapply the next year and utilize the free time to do something worthwhile like research or get published. Your stats are really the only thing that matter, and as the situation currently stands, graduates with a 99/99 don't get a spot in their first shot.
 
I came to India straight out of high school man... and I didn't even know about this forum till I got here... so maybe in retrospect if I had I wouldn't have come... who knows... But I came here to save a lot of money and perhaps some time... now as far as time goes... you really save none... but money you do save... also there is no competition just to get into med school... coming mere mean you will be a doctor at the end of your course.... and that was really a factor for me as I too was very scared about trying my best and then still not making it...

Regarding which schools I'd recommend.... again bigger cities are better for adjustment and somewhere you know the language... I too am Punjabi... and it was tough to pick up the language here in the south... but not too hard to get by... and you get many muslim urdu speaking patients here too so its not that bad. I was actually going to get admission in DMC Ludhiana... but then during the admissions time there was some fight between the students union and the administration so the whole school and thus the admissions shut down... and I have heard, from family and friends, that in the north student unions are very big and they cause problems from time to time... but thats what I have heard... dunno too much about it.

Regarding govt colleges... you probably will not be able to get a seat... but if you can grab it... they are by far better than private institutions...

Regarding Private colleges... Here in the South I would really only think of Bangalore and Manipal, as the climate and the city life is by far one of the best places to live... and if you are gonna be here 5 years I would say you should be comfortable... cuz imho I can't think of studying in punjab summers with out any power... and trust me power goes out like 12 hours a day there during the summers...

the only two colleges in bangalore that are any good, in terms of private institutions, are KIMS and Ramaiah. I can say personally that KIMS has been pretty decent in teaching and we get a lot of patients as we are in the heart of the city.... Ramaiah is also ranked well. However, many of my friends go there, and I have referred some people there too... and they say the teaching staff is more anti NRI there.... I referred one party there and the teaching staff flat out told them "don't send your kid here.." so go figure... But I will say KIMS is alright... I know this sounds like I am tooting my own colleges horn but its not the case... the best thing for you to do is to come to india and check out all the colleges yourself... talk to the students there... and do ur homework urself...

Regarding manipal... the twinning program is rather new... when I joined it wasn't there... Again its not recognised in all 50 states... I would say stick to the normal MCI recognized scheme and study in that... The only thing that I have heard the twinning program does to prepare you for MLE's is that the last year they send you to miami or something and you go through a KAPLAN like study review for the Step one.... i dunno if there is more or less.... this is purely what I have heard.... One other thing that bothers me about Manipal, and I don't know if this is an issue stil, but the location of that hospital is pretty much rural and I have heard that they used to pay patients to come there because they didn't have a very big patient load.... thats a problem that you wouldn't see in a bigger city very the cases you get are varied and pt load is not a problem... also with rural settings you wont get Subway, Mc donalds, KFC and the such... friends from manipal come down to BLR all the time and they tell me they have all of 2 clubs/lounges to hand out at and not very many places to eat out... I, being an american need things to do and places to eat ( I'm a big foodie). I mean these things help me cope with being here and refresh me for when it is time to study... so thats my take...
 
See now thats what I am concerned about. So if students do not do well on their USMLEs, they can STILL try next year for it right? I dont know who but someone told me if you don't get in the first time you try, you pretty much lose the chances and then you are just stuck there.
Schandan13, for the regular MBBS from India, they do not prepare us for USMLEs right? I think the twinning program offered by KMC-IC is the only school in India that prepares us for USMLEs.

Dggopal, do you plan to practice in US? If yes, how will KIMS prepare you for USMLE?

Another question: Say I go for the twinning program in Manipal. I go to US for residency, everything goes well and I get the US licensure. Will i be able to practice ANYWHERE in US (keeping in mind that initially it is not accredited in 50 states)?
 
simply_me said:
See now thats what I am concerned about. So if students do not do well on their USMLEs, they can STILL try next year for it right? I dont know who but someone told me if you don't get in the first time you try, you pretty much lose the chances and then you are just stuck there.
Schandan13, for the regular MBBS from India, they do not prepare us for USMLEs right? I think the twinning program offered by KMC-IC is the only school in India that prepares us for USMLEs.

Dggopal, do you plan to practice in US? If yes, how will KIMS prepare you for USMLE?

Another question: Say I go for the twinning program in Manipal. I go to US for residency, everything goes well and I get the US licensure. Will i be able to practice ANYWHERE in US (keeping in mind that initially it is not accredited in 50 states)?
Click to expand...

Let's not go in circles over the same questions. It seems like either you aren't reading the posts properly or perhaps we aren't able to get our point across to you.

A college doesn't prepare you for the boards. You prepare yourself.
It might be easier for those coming out of schools in which all the students are studying for the same ultimate goal. Trust me, a competitive co-operative environment induces an academic spirit in you as well.

From AUA-KMC you would not be able to practice in many states but you'll be able to do residency anywhere. In the end your step scores and clerkship grades, LORs will be all that matter.
 
Ahaan. Thanks Schandan13 for clearing it up!
 
yeah schandan is right... i mean think of it this way... we are going to an Indian med school... why would they prepare us for a US exam... only kmc twinning program does this BECAUSE its targets US students... its tailor made for them...

The only way that KIMS or any other regular college be it govt or private is gonna help you for USMLE's is teach you the subject matter in an indian style from an Indian exam point of view... so you learn to take theory exams that are largely theory based in essay format style exams... now to PREPARE YOURSELF for USMLE's you have to reacquaint yourself with that same theory knowledge but from a practical perspective.... so thats the best I can explain it.... Ultimately doctors here aren't learning anything different than doctors back home... it's just that USMLE asks questions with a practical approach and we learn largely from a theoretical perspective here in india...

regarding taking the USMLE... we can take the exam as many times as we want provided we haven't passed it... once we pass the exam that score sticks until it expires i think( might be confusing this exiration thing with MCAT)... i dunno how many years it takes to expire...

and I do plan to practice in the US... One question I have for Schandan or whoever else can answer it... suppose i apply for residency and I get it in New york or somewhere else... at the end of that residency I can choose to stay there and practice without taking any other exams correct? Now if I choose to go to say another state like California or sowhere... would I have to take California state boards exams or are state board exams all lumped into one exam which allows practice in all 50 states?
 
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