The world has lost a great bodybuilder

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pgg said:
Jet, no one really denies or doubts that steroids and other performance enhancing drugs are widely used in the sport world.

But I think fixating on whether or not the playing field is level misses the point of the criticism. Why do people watch sports?

Not because they really matter. If the local team wins or loses, it doesn't change a fan's life in any measurable way. So why do people watch? Usually because they have enjoyed playing the sport themselves at some point in their lives, and like watching professionals who are extremely talented and at the top of the game. People can connect to pro athletes this way.

There's fun in watching as part of a group, going to events, being part of the "12th man" in the home stadium. When you throw in cocktails of steroids and drugs, normal people don't feel like they're watching humans compete any more. A lot of fans wouldn't be able to embrace that "12th man" feeling because the 11 players on the field aren't people. They're cyborgs.

There's a reason drugs are and always will be absolutely prohibited in the Olympics, and it has nothing to do with how level the playing field it is or isn't. Or how healthy it is or isn't for the athletes (nobody really cares about that). We may joke about how drug use should be mandatory for pro athletes to optimize the spectacle and absurd inhuman entertainment value, but the vast majority of the public doesn't want to watch a bunch of people on drugs.
Click to expand...

Pgg, your posts overall

ARE METICULOUS AND ON POINT.

Unfortunately this post of yours is WAYYYYYYYYY

OFF POINT MAN.

Justa few poignant rebuttals:

1) PEOPLE WATCH SPORTS BECAUSE PEOPLE REALLLY FEEL SPORTS MATTERS, AND IF THE LOCAL SPORTS TEAM LOSES, IT AFFECTS THE ENTIRE CITY. BELIEVE ME. I LIVE IN NEW ORLEANS. WHEN THE SAINTS LOSE IT IS PALPABLE THE FOLLOWING WEEK. You're kidding yourself saying that WINNING doesn't matter. Sports is PASSIONATE man. Populations are AFFECTED by wins and losses, and not just here in NOLA. As you know, I went to THE U. My attitude is ABSOLUTELY AFFECTED by a win or a loss the following week during football season. I am not alone in my passion.

2) PEOPLE REALLY DO CARE ABOUT THE "LEVEL PLAYING FIELD" CONCEPT

3) PEOPLE WANNA SEE "FREAKS" WHETHER IT"S A 280lb BODYBUILDER OR A PITCHER THROWING 98mph OR A CATCHER SMOKING A DUDE OUT AT SECOND WITH A RIFLE THROW OR A RUNNING BACK RUNNING A 4.27 FORTY OR A MIDDLE LINEBACKER THROWING 320lb LINEMEN ASIDE LIKE THEY'RE MOSQUITOES IN ORDER TO TACKLE THE TAILBACK OR A GOLFER SHOWING UNTOUCHABLE ACCURACY WHILE MAINTAINING REMARKABLE FOCUS DESPITE MEDIA AND CROWD DISTRACTION OR A TOUR DE FRANCE DUDE THAT SMOKES HIS PEERS YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER YEAR OR....

You're

WRONG,

Pgg.

The general public watching sports

LOVE FREAKS.

They are

CAPTIVATED BY FREAKS.

You said

"the public doesn't want to watch a bunch of people on drugs."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!

Dude,

IF YOU BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE VERY, VERY NAIVE.

The public doesn't care about drugs because before the whole media storm on steroids they weren't even

AWARE OF DRUGS AND SPORTS.

Even now, after the whole media storm about how bad PEDs are (grin), they really don't care.

The public still yearns for

BIGGER, MORE RIPPED BODYBUILDERS

FASTER PITCHES

RIFLE THROWS TO SECOND BASE ON A STEAL

BIGGER HITS

MORE ACROBATIC CATCHES IN THE END ZONE

SECOND STROKES ON A PAR FIVE HITTING THE GREEN

Pgg,

You're

WRONG IN YOUR ASSESSMENT OF PEOPLE WATCHING SPORTS.

SOOOOOO WRONG MAN.

Makes me think you may be out of touch with the sports world.

Which makes me think you may sincerely

NOT KNOW.

Kinda like expecting an I.T. Guy to know where ED REED went to college and what NFL team he played for.
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I suppose you're right.


But the notion that we should just accept the status quo because it's widespread isn't something I can just get on board with. I don't know what the solution is, or if there even IS a solution, but I can't agree that there's no problem.

There's more to the widespread opposition to drug use in pro sports, than just so-called "moral" opposition. There will always be people who say "drugs're bad mkay" and lobby for total prohibition. That's not where I'm coming from. I think all drugs should be legal to all adults at all times. I just don't particularly WANT to see them in pro sports, particularly because of the message it sends to young athletes.

In a perfect world, where our government didn't criminalize drug use ... If a league wanted to allow drug use by participating athletes, fine. Be open about it. If a league wanted to prohibit drug use, also fine - but then they need to enforce that prohibition and not tolerate any wishy-washy "but everyone's doing it" kind of wink-wink BS while pretending to have a league substance abuse policy.

I guess what annoys me most is the dishonesty of it all. The dishonesty of the leagues that act like they have a handle on it. Of the athletes who, for legal or PR or league reasons, lie about it. Of the fans who tell their kids "drugs're bad mkay" in one breath and then cheer on some juiced up hero because they want the team to win. Of everyone who says it's OK because everyone's doing it.

And part of that dishonesty is pretending that it isn't harmful to the sport itself. To take one example - I don't see how anybody can possibly be impressed by Lance Armstrong's wins at this point, or think that cycling as a whole is anything other than a silly farce these days. Who's on drugs? Who's not? Who's lying? Who's not? Which wins were fair? Which weren't?

Do you think that's what cyclists and fans of cycling really want, in the name of freak entertainment? The hero of the sport crying on Oprah's shoulder?
 
We have an epidemic of YOUNG dudes (high school) using performance enhancing drugs. The real deal, and hard stuff like "Tren" but also liver beating oral "Prohormones".

This is a major problem and probably good enough reason to continue to at least make TOKEN efforts to keep them banned among professional athletes. Kids that age are just way too impressionable.

I wonder what the longer term effects of f.cking with the HPG axis at THAT age level is and with THOSE agents (less potent thus they take more and probably are going to hurt their livers among other things).

When I was in high school there were a COUPLE dudes with serious mass and definition. Mostly they were clean.

Today? You have YOUNG guys walking around like beasts. Not sure how this is going to play out.

I stand by my assertion that a fully grown/developed adult male CAN do responsible cycles, if done correctly and with proper blood work for monitoring (or even permanent TRT for that matter), with very little adverse outcomes. Diuretic use and extreme cutting not withstanding, however.

I'll post an interesting study later on.
 
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Body builders are athletes?

Hahahaha

More like juiced up freaks with chips on their shoulders.
 
cbtk18 said:
Body builders are athletes?

Hahahaha

More like juiced up freaks with chips on their shoulders.
Click to expand...


Hmmmm I like chips.

MCC13.jpg
 
Jet, you have once again impressed me. 6 ft 248 lbs 6% body fat (what I call ripped) is a very big animal. The problem is you got into the game at the time when for whatever reason the ifbb and the weiders were taking bodybuilding into strange territory, favoring mass above everything. That had to be a couple of years after Nasser realized this and went from competing at 240 to 280 and up. The rumor is this is when Milos taught him insulin use. But I bet you know the real story.

But the ifbb got it all wrong. The general public doesn't want to see 300 lbs freaks. Take me back to the real golden age, the late 70s. Zane won 3 sandows at 190lbs. But looked 30 lbs heavier due to his structure and insertions. A physique like Zane would be much more accepted and viewed positively by the public than the pregnant bellies of today. And would sell many more tubs of powder. Which, lets face it, is the point of the whole bodybuilding industry.
 
bigeyedfish said:
Jet, you have once again impressed me. 6 ft 248 lbs 6% body fat (what I call ripped) is a very big animal. The problem is you got into the game at the time when for whatever reason the ifbb and the weiders were taking bodybuilding into strange territory, favoring mass above everything. That had to be a couple of years after Nasser realized this and went from competing at 240 to 280 and up. The rumor is this is when Milos taught him insulin use. But I bet you know the real story.

But the ifbb got it all wrong. The general public doesn't want to see 300 lbs freaks. Take me back to the real golden age, the late 70s. Zane won 3 sandows at 190lbs. But looked 30 lbs heavier due to his structure and insertions. A physique like Zane would be much more accepted and viewed positively by the public than the pregnant bellies of today. And would sell many more tubs of powder. Which, lets face it, is the point of the whole bodybuilding industry.
Click to expand...

Back in the nineties I was (like I am now) a private practice anesthesiologist.

I was also

STRIVING TO BE A PROFESSIONAL BODYBUILDER.

TO THE NAYSAYERS,

My life was regimented. Despite my physician professional life,

MY WORKOUTS AND MY DIET NEVER SUFFERED.

I had a ROKKSTARR ANESTHESIA GIG back then. I made alotta money. The trade-off for that "I made alotta money" is

WE WORKED. HARD.

WORKING HARD DID NOT DETER ME FROM MY BODYBUILDING ASPIRATIONS.

I keenly remember one night...I'm On Call...

I'M UP ALLLL NITE MAN.

Labor epidurals, C-sections (IF YOU CAN FIND A PRACTICE THAT DOES NO OB, TAKE IT!!! OB IS THE NEMESIS OF OUR EXISTENCE AS ANESTHESIOLOGISTS)

I get relieved by my partners at 0600.

I'm free to go home and go to sleep since I've been up all night.

NOPE.

I go home, change my clothes, and go to

THE TRACK FOR CARDIO.

I was lucky enough to live in a city that had a high-school stadium where my homies and I

RAN STAIRS

and

JOGGED THE TRACK

for our cardio.

After being up all night that night,

when I was relieved,

I WENT TO THE STADIUM AND DID STAIRS. I JOGGED THE TRACK.

ENSURING

FORTY MINUTES OF CARDIO

for that day

before I went to sleep.

I wanna talk to you dudes out there that call out certain athlete professions as being illegitimate...

I WAS AT THE BOTTOM OF THE BARREL, TRYINGGGGG TO GET A PRO CARD

with what I retrospectively look at as

SUPER HUMAN EFFORT

yet I couldn't make it happen, despite great genetics and great work ethic and great advisors.

PROFESSIONAL BODYBUILDERS ARE ATHLETES.

THEIR TRIALS AND TRIBULATIONS TO ACHIEVE THEIR PHYSIQUE DOES NOT COME EASY. THEIR TRAINING REGIME AND DIET CANNOT BE REPLICATED BY NORMAL HUMANS.
 
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jetproppilot said:
Yes.

Yes they do man.

With all due respect

YOU ARE WRONG.
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I should have been more specific.

Remember the scene in Pumping Iron when Arnold is posing in the prison yard? None of the inmates could take their eyes off him. One said, "That man has a beautiful body." I don't think Ronnie or Kai or anyone today would have gotten that reaction. Maybe more like "that thing is from another planet." I KNOW, that's a good thing. But it takes a certain type of individual to appreaciate that.

The bodies of the 70's had broader appeal. In regular clothes they didn't look like fat guys, they looked atheletic. A lot of those guys were constantly appearing on TV and everyone knew them. Little kids would look up in awe at Serge Nubret or Franco and say "I want to look like that someday." How many kids say I want to have a gut like Dave Palumbo? Or I want to be as water logged as Branch Warren?

Look at the tope three of the recent Arnold Classic. Waists are out of control, conditioning is non existant. Arnold even said something about it at the event.

Contrast that with today and it more of a niche market. Add to that the sad fact that most have to resort to gay for pay to afford the 20-30+ iu a day of FDA gh it takes to get to 290lbs on stage.

Bodybuilding has lost something. I'm all for size but not at the expense of conditioning, proportions and "flow." Insulin ruined bodybuilding.
 
bigeyedfish said:
I should have been more specific.

Remember the scene in Pumping Iron when Arnold is posing in the prison yard? None of the inmates could take their eyes off him. One said, "That man has a beautiful body." I don't think Ronnie or Kai or anyone today would have gotten that reaction. Maybe more like "that thing is from another planet." I KNOW, that's a good thing. But it takes a certain type of individual to appreaciate that.

The bodies of the 70's had broader appeal. In regular clothes they didn't look like fat guys, they looked atheletic. A lot of those guys were constantly appearing on TV and everyone knew them. Little kids would look up in awe at Serge Nubret or Franco and say "I want to look like that someday." How many kids say I want to have a gut like Dave Palumbo? Or I want to be as water logged as Branch Warren?

Look at the tope three of the recent Arnold Classic. Waists are out of control, conditioning is non existant. Arnold even said something about it at the event.

Contrast that with today and it more of a niche market. Add to that the sad fact that most have to resort to gay for pay to afford the 20-30+ iu a day of FDA gh it takes to get to 290lbs on stage.

Bodybuilding has lost something. I'm all for size but not at the expense of conditioning, proportions and "flow." Insulin ruined bodybuilding.
Click to expand...

You know what you are talking about. :thumbup:
 
bigeyedfish said:
I should have been more specific.

Remember the scene in Pumping Iron when Arnold is posing in the prison yard? None of the inmates could take their eyes off him. One said, "That man has a beautiful body." I don't think Ronnie or Kai or anyone today would have gotten that reaction. Maybe more like "that thing is from another planet." I KNOW, that's a good thing. But it takes a certain type of individual to appreaciate that.

The bodies of the 70's had broader appeal. In regular clothes they didn't look like fat guys, they looked atheletic. A lot of those guys were constantly appearing on TV and everyone knew them. Little kids would look up in awe at Serge Nubret or Franco and say "I want to look like that someday." How many kids say I want to have a gut like Dave Palumbo? Or I want to be as water logged as Branch Warren?

Look at the tope three of the recent Arnold Classic. Waists are out of control, conditioning is non existant. Arnold even said something about it at the event.

Contrast that with today and it more of a niche market. Add to that the sad fact that most have to resort to gay for pay to afford the 20-30+ iu a day of FDA gh it takes to get to 290lbs on stage.

Bodybuilding has lost something. I'm all for size but not at the expense of conditioning, proportions and "flow." Insulin ruined bodybuilding.
Click to expand...
Weren't the old guys also on some form of PED? What changed that the guys today are so much "freakier"?
 
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bigeyedfish said:
I should have been more specific.

Remember the scene in Pumping Iron when Arnold is posing in the prison yard? None of the inmates could take their eyes off him. One said, "That man has a beautiful body." I don't think Ronnie or Kai or anyone today would have gotten that reaction. Maybe more like "that thing is from another planet." I KNOW, that's a good thing. But it takes a certain type of individual to appreaciate that.

The bodies of the 70's had broader appeal. In regular clothes they didn't look like fat guys, they looked atheletic. A lot of those guys were constantly appearing on TV and everyone knew them. Little kids would look up in awe at Serge Nubret or Franco and say "I want to look like that someday." How many kids say I want to have a gut like Dave Palumbo? Or I want to be as water logged as Branch Warren?

Look at the tope three of the recent Arnold Classic. Waists are out of control, conditioning is non existant. Arnold even said something about it at the event.

Contrast that with today and it more of a niche market. Add to that the sad fact that most have to resort to gay for pay to afford the 20-30+ iu a day of FDA gh it takes to get to 290lbs on stage.

Bodybuilding has lost something. I'm all for size but not at the expense of conditioning, proportions and "flow." Insulin ruined bodybuilding.
Click to expand...

Yeah dude, I see your point. Bodybuilding certainly has changed.

I don't think insulin is where most of the mass is coming from. Though I'm sure it contributes, the steroid doses being done current day are so far beyond what guys did in the Arnie days that it's crazy. The addition of gh also which few did back then since it was cadaveric gh and not gentetically engineered yet.
 
Starting at 9:35 you can see Nasser El Sonbaty.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHjbVedaSBA[/YOUTUBE]
 
Many theorize that the overuse of insulin and gh are what led to today's blocky physiques. Are they right? Who knows, but when I look at a guy like Jay Cutler there is nothing appealing about his look regardless of how cut he gets.

Phil Heath is probably the closest to any of the old schools guys in terms of the small joints and tight waist. Talk about freaks, that guy is the textbook definition. The difference in pictures from when he first started lifting to even a year or two later are unreal. Exceptional athlete and unreal response to anabolics.
 
For example: Phil Heath. He doesn't look as crisp now as he did back in 2005-6, but still light years better than the monstrosity Ronne Coleman pictured below.

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Ronin786 said:
Weren't the old guys also on some form of PED? What changed that the guys today are so much "freakier"?
Click to expand...

Besides all the new exotic supplements and potent gear, I'd say things have definitely been getting out of hand re: the tanning bed and skin bronzing.

gasattack3 said:
We have an epidemic of YOUNG dudes (high school) using performance enhancing drugs. The real deal, and hard stuff like "Tren" but also liver beating oral "Prohormones".

This is a major problem and probably good enough reason to continue to at least make TOKEN efforts to keep them banned among professional athletes. Kids that age are just way too impressionable.

I wonder what the longer term effects of f.cking with the HPG axis at THAT age level is and with THOSE agents (less potent thus they take more and probably are going to hurt their livers among other things).

When I was in high school there were a COUPLE dudes with serious mass and definition. Mostly they were clean.

Today? You have YOUNG guys walking around like beasts. Not sure how this is going to play out.

I stand by my assertion that a fully grown/developed adult male CAN do responsible cycles, if done correctly and with proper blood work for monitoring (or even permanent TRT for that matter), with very little adverse outcomes. Diuretic use and extreme cutting not withstanding, however.

I'll post an interesting study later on.
Click to expand...

Please do! I'm interested in reading.
 
jetproppilot said:
Back in the nineties I was (like I am now) a private practice anesthesiologist.

I was also

STRIVING TO BE A PROFESSIONAL BODYBUILDER.

TO THE NAYSAYERS,

My life was regimented. Despite my physician professional life,

MY WORKOUTS AND MY DIET NEVER SUFFERED.

WORKING HARD DID NOT DETER ME FROM MY BODYBUILDING ASPIRATIONS.

PROFESSIONAL BODYBUILDERS ARE ATHLETES.

THEIR TRIALS AND TRIBULATIONS TO ACHIEVE THEIR PHYSIQUE DOES NOT COME EASY. THEIR TRAINING REGIME AND DIET CANNOT BE REPLICATED BY NORMAL HUMANS.
Click to expand...

professional bodybuilders are models, not athletes. jogging around a track, running stairs, and lifting does not make you an athlete IMHO because the goal is a look, not a mark in a sport. the muscle is awe-inspiring, yes. it's hard to look away.

i don't intend to belittle the tremendous amount of work and discipline and genetics (and pharmaceuticals) that go into achieving that freakish look.

but call it what it is. an athlete uses work and discipline and genetics (and pharmaceuticals, yes, sometimes, but that is a separate discussion) to achieve a FUNCTIONAL mark ie a sub 10 100m dash, an nba championship, a gold medal, etc...

what is the bodybuilder working for? a ribbon awarded for flexing and smiling on a catwalk with a fake tan in a speedo? this is an AESTHETIC mark, not an athletic one. there is no jumping, running, swimming, lifting, or athletic move of any kind on display at a bodybuilding contest. there is only POSING. flexing and holding, like a statue.

both functional and aesthetic marks are impressive, and attractive to different parts of the public. different people are into different things. more power to you.

but please, call it what it is. a bodybuilder is a model competing in beauty contests, not athletic contests.
 
slavin said:
professional bodybuilders are models, not athletes. jogging around a track, running stairs, and lifting does not make you an athlete IMHO because the goal is a look, not a mark in a sport. the muscle is awe-inspiring, yes. it's hard to look away..
Click to expand...

JERRY RICE is one of the most recognizable

NFL PLAYERS ON EARTH.

BECAUSE HE COULD CATCH A BALL.

TIGER WOODS IS ARGUABLY THE MOST FAMOUS ATHLETE ON EARTH.

HIS FAME STARTED BECAUSE

HE COULD HIT A GOLF BALL BETTER

THAN ANYONE ELSE.

DEVELOPING MUSCLES TO FREAK SIZE IS NO DIFFERENT THAN CATCHING A BALL IN THE END ZONE. OR HITTING YOUR SECOND SHOT ON A PAR FOUR TO WITHIN THREE FEET OF THE HOLE.

Professional bodybuilders endure thousands of hours in the gym, enduring a diet mortal humans cannot tolerate.

Oh...and those

THOUSANDS OF HOURS IN THE GYM?

HEY SLAVIN...

DO YOU REALLY KNOW WHAT IT TAKES TO BE A PROFESSIONAL BODYBUILDER

IN THE GYM?

Seriously...DO YOU HAVE ANY REFERENCES OF KNOWLEDGE TO PROVE OR DISAPPROVE YOUR STANCE THAT PROFESSIONAL BODYBUILDERS ARE

JUST

MODELS?

So a professional athlete can become famous because he can

CATCH A BALL IN THE END ZONE

or a professional athlete can become famous because he can

HIT THE BALL CLOSE TO SOME RANDOM CUP

but according to you an athlete can't be considered a professional because his work

HAS BEEN SPENT PERFECTING

HIS BODY?

Jerry Rice worked on

CATCHING A FOOTBALL.

Tiger Woods is famous because he

HITS A GOLF BALL REALLY GOOD.

Nasser El Sonbaty worked on

THE THICKNESS OF HIS BODY WITH THE SAME PASSION AND THE SAME ATHLETICISM.

AS DID ARNOLD. RONNIE. KEVIN. DORIAN.

SO YOU'RE CALLING

ARNOLD

RONNIE COLEMAN

KEVIN LEVRONE

DORIAN YATES

MODELS? NOT ATHLETES?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Why? Because their (very athletic) sport involved how

MUSCLES LOOKED as opposed to how

MUSCLES CAUGHT A BALL OR PROPELLED A BALL TO SOME RANDOM LITTLE CUP?

SLAVIN,

IT'S VERY OBVIOUS YOU KNOW NOTHING

about what it takes to be a professional bodybuilder.

Just because they don't catch a ball or propel a very small ball near a very small cup doesn't mean they are not athletes.

As an aside (speaking from experience),

Do you

KNOW HOW MUCH DISCIPLINE IT TAKES TO HAVE

ROCK HARD,

STRIATED THIGHS???

OK.

Take a deep breath because I'm quite sure you've never thought about that.

WAKE UP AND SMELL THE ROSES THO DUDE BECAUSE

BODYBUILDING IS A REAL,

VIABLE SPORT

WITH SPORTS HEROES

THAT VIE FOR BIG, THICK STRIATED THIGHS

AND A THICK BACK.

Please tell me, SLAVIN, how striving for striated thighs and a thick back since doing so takes such

HERCULEAN EFFORT

differs

FROM AN ATHLETE

catching a ball or

hitting a very small ball near a very small cup

(in your VERY SMALL mind, btw)
 
One of the great things about having children is all the opportunities it affords to mess with young, impressionable, developing minds.

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My daughter is 11 and has been doing gymnastics for about half her life. She spends about 4 hours in the gym, 5 days per week, every week, year round. The effort dedication, and discipline she has is remarkable, especially since she's 11 and all her parents do are pay the bills and transport her. The motivation is all her (and her coaches and teammates I suppose). She's a remarkable athlete, far better than I ever was.

We've had the "is gymnastics a sport" conversation a few times, and being her father (see the opening line of this post) I usually feel compelled to mess with her. "How can gymnastics be a sport, if the scoring is just subjective judging, and only one competitor goes at a time? Fat old guys playing softball might be beer-swilling heart attacks waiting to happen, but at least everyone agrees what a hit and a run are. How come the judges never agree how good your bar routine or vault is?" Then she tries explaining how there really are very specific point deductions for various screwups or imperfections, and my eyes kind of glaze over because I still don't really get the scoring, even after all these years. I can tell when her toes aren't pointed, and falling off the beam is hard to miss, but I can't tell the difference between a tenth point deduction for wobbling on the beam vs not holding a position long enough.

The discussion usually ends when she challenges me to pushups or something and I concede the argument to her.



Anyway, point being, the whole "is bodybuilding a sport" argument is just as silly. Top bodybuilders are dedicated athletes who do something extraordinary. I can see that, even if I understand it even less than parallel bars scoring.
 
jetproppilot said:
YOU MAY NOT FIND IT APPEALING BUT ARE YOU (even) CAPABLE

of recognizing

WHAT IT TAKES

AS AN ATHLETE

TO LOOK LIKE THAT??????
Click to expand...

Yeah, many people think you can look like this simply by injecting yourself with a ton of **** and lifting like a normal gym rat.
 
jetproppilot said:
JERRY RICE is one of the most recognizable

NFL PLAYERS ON EARTH.

BECAUSE HE COULD CATCH A BALL.

TIGER WOODS IS ARGUABLY THE MOST FAMOUS ATHLETE ON EARTH.

HIS FAME STARTED BECAUSE

HE COULD HIT A GOLF BALL BETTER

THAN ANYONE ELSE.

DEVELOPING MUSCLES TO FREAK SIZE IS NO DIFFERENT THAN CATCHING A BALL IN THE END ZONE. OR HITTING YOUR SECOND SHOT ON A PAR FOUR TO WITHIN THREE FEET OF THE HOLE.

Professional bodybuilders endure thousands of hours in the gym, enduring a diet mortal humans cannot tolerate.

Oh...and those

THOUSANDS OF HOURS IN THE GYM?

HEY SLAVIN...

DO YOU REALLY KNOW WHAT IT TAKES TO BE A PROFESSIONAL BODYBUILDER

IN THE GYM?

Seriously...DO YOU HAVE ANY REFERENCES OF KNOWLEDGE TO PROVE OR DISAPPROVE YOUR STANCE THAT PROFESSIONAL BODYBUILDERS ARE

JUST

MODELS?

So a professional athlete can become famous because he can

CATCH A BALL IN THE END ZONE

or a professional athlete can become famous because he can

HIT THE BALL CLOSE TO SOME RANDOM CUP

but according to you an athlete can't be considered a professional because his work

HAS BEEN SPENT PERFECTING

HIS BODY?

Jerry Rice worked on

CATCHING A FOOTBALL.

Tiger Woods is famous because he

HITS A GOLF BALL REALLY GOOD.

Nasser El Sonbaty worked on

THE THICKNESS OF HIS BODY WITH THE SAME PASSION AND THE SAME ATHLETICISM.

AS DID ARNOLD. RONNIE. KEVIN. DORIAN.

SO YOU'RE CALLING

ARNOLD

RONNIE COLEMAN

KEVIN LEVRONE

DORIAN YATES

MODELS? NOT ATHLETES?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Why? Because their (very athletic) sport involved how

MUSCLES LOOKED as opposed to how

MUSCLES CAUGHT A BALL OR PROPELLED A BALL TO SOME RANDOM LITTLE CUP?

SLAVIN,

IT'S VERY OBVIOUS YOU KNOW NOTHING

about what it takes to be a professional bodybuilder.

Just because they don't catch a ball or propel a very small ball near a very small cup doesn't mean they are not athletes.

As an aside (speaking from experience),

Do you

KNOW HOW MUCH DISCIPLINE IT TAKES TO HAVE

ROCK HARD,

STRIATED THIGHS???

OK.

Take a deep breath because I'm quite sure you've never thought about that.

WAKE UP AND SMELL THE ROSES THO DUDE BECAUSE

BODYBUILDING IS A REAL,

VIABLE SPORT

WITH SPORTS HEROES

THAT VIE FOR BIG, THICK STRIATED THIGHS

AND A THICK BACK.

Please tell me, SLAVIN, how striving for striated thighs and a thick back since doing so takes such

HERCULEAN EFFORT

differs

FROM AN ATHLETE

catching a ball or

hitting a very small ball near a very small cup

(in your VERY SMALL mind, btw)
Click to expand...

we can agree on one thing - golf is not a very athletic sport. fat guys often excel. it'a a bit more towards a hobby than a sport on the continuum.

what do you call an event where men and women bronze (sometimes black) themselves, don speedos, and smile and pose and flex on a catwalk in front of judges? is this an athletic or aesthetic event? it is purely aesthetic, my friend.

perhaps the training contains elements in common with athletic training, but the competition is purely aesthetic, as you yourself have pointed out - achieving a "freak look".

just because effort and extreme devotion is expended towards an outcome does not make it an athletic pursuit. and fame does not equal athleticism either. as we agree, golf and tiger woods are far less athletic than some other less famous sports ie greco-roman wrestling...

jerry rice was not famous for "catching a ball". he is a famous receiver. his footwork, speed, coordination, etc = athleticism. you support my point with your argument. appearance does not equal function.

as to my experience, well, yes you got me. i am not an expert in bodybuilding, and i am not and never will be a "freak". i am however quite aware of what it takes to achieve the "look". i've been in the weight room since middle school, and was a mediocre college decathlete. i have always worked extremely hard to attain the modest goals i've achieved. i maintain a fairly small but ripped 37yo physique - 6'2", 185. i can still bench 235 and run a sub5 minute mile. is that impressive by bodybuilding standards? hell no, but it demonstrates that i have a rough idea of what kind of discipline is needed to attain changes in the weight room.

a couple of friends have been into bodybuilding on and off. as i said before, i don't belittle the discipline, devotion, genetics, (and pharmaceutical) efforts that go into bodybuilding. bodybuilding competitions are nonetheless purely aesthetic.

"herculean efforts" to achieve "striated thighs" and a "thick back" doesn't necessarily make you athletic, because you are striving after a look, not a mark.

i will concede that bodybulding competitions are not quite beauty contests, but they are definitely not athletic competitions either. perhaps the truth lies between our opinions.

we can disagree amicably.

don't get your speedo in a wad, i'm just needling you (puns definitely intended).

:love:
 
Last edited:
DreamMachine said:
Yeah, many people think you can look like this simply by injecting yourself with a ton of **** and lifting like a normal gym rat.
Click to expand...

Many people are wrong. Otherwise there would be a ****load of Jay Cutlers walking the earth. There is not.

In this pic he's 5'8" 280 lbs and and probably just under 4% body fat. It takes a very special level of crazy, genetics, knowledge, dedication and super human effort to push yourself to this level. And yes, drugs, but that's every sport at the highest level.

For jet to have competed at this level at 6 ft he would have to have been about 300-310 lbs on stage. (7 lbs for every inch.)
 
bigeyedfish said:
Many people are wrong. Otherwise there would be a ****load of Jay Cutlers walking the earth. There is not.

In this pic he's 5'8" 280 lbs and and probably just under 4% body fat. It takes a very special level of crazy, genetics, knowledge, dedication and super human effort to push yourself to this level. And yes, drugs, but that's every sport at the highest level.

For jet to have competed at this level at 6 ft he would have to have been about 300-310 lbs on stage. (7 lbs for every inch.)
Click to expand...

7 lbs per inch?
 
bigeyedfish said:
Jet is 6' 0". 4 inches taller than Jay Cutler. For him to have had an equivalent amount of mass distributed on his frame he would have needed 7 more lbs per inch in height than Jay.
Click to expand...

Indeed.
I was close to eclipsing 250lbs with very low body fat (6%) back in the 1990s.
FAR BELOW THE MASS I NEEDED TO COMPETE ON A NATIONAL LEVEL.
I gave it my best shot.
I wouldn't change the experiences I had/people I met/discipline I learned.
A great, great time in my life man!
Oh well...thankfully I had the anesthesia gig to fall back on!!!
lol
 
jetproppilot said:
Indeed.
I was close to eclipsing 250lbs with very low body fat (6%) back in the 1990s.
FAR BELOW THE MASS I NEEDED TO COMPETE ON A NATIONAL LEVEL.
I gave it my best shot.
I wouldn't change the experiences I had/people I met/discipline I learned.
A great, great time in my life man!
Oh well...thankfully I had the anesthesia gig to fall back on!!!
lol
Click to expand...

It sounded like you were doing all that you could to hit that level, which is impressive enough by mere mortal standards. I'm curious, what would you have needed to do 'go farther'? More AAS? In your defense, your career is pretty intense and I imagine it was quite tough to follow an IFBB-style eating / training schedule.
 
OutRun said:
It sounded like you were doing all that you could to hit that level, which is impressive enough by mere mortal standards. I'm curious, what would you have needed to do 'go farther'? More AAS? In your defense, your career is pretty intense and I imagine it was quite tough to follow an IFBB-style eating / training schedule.
Click to expand...

I was able to

WORK FULL TIME AS AN MD AND ALSO

MAINTAIN A PROFESSIONAL BODYBUILDER'S

TRAINING AND DIET.

That sounds like a

REALLY LARGE ACCOMPLISHMENT

but it's really not man.

RONNIE COLEMAN WAS A COP

in his early days, training and competing on the National Level while working a fulltime job as a policeman.

I REACHED A PINNACLE

I used alotta Performance Enhancing Drugs.

This may sound like a rationalization to most of you out there, but

I USED PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUGS

SCIENTIFICALLY.

I followed my body and my blood work.

WHAT WOULD I HAVE NEEDED TO GO FURTHER?

I would've had to gone out of the envelope I considered "safe" in terms of doses of performance enhancing drugs.

I had

STEROID USE

down to a

SCIENCE.

I monitored my body/labs and

KNEW

SCIENTIFICALLY

how far I could push the envelope.

SAFELY.

I got to

JUST UNDER 250 lbs.

That's as far as I felt comfortable pushing the envelope. From a physician point of view, I knew

PUSHING FURTHER CARRIED RISK I WASN'T WILLING TO TAKE.

I followed my blood work studiously during my PED use. The literature speaks of and everyone speaks of LIVER DYSFUNCTION as the risk...

I DIDN'T SEE THAT.

Yeah, I saw my LFTs a little above normal but nothing to be worried about.

KNOW WHAT WORRIED ME?

MY LIPID PROFILE.

The higher I went with PEDs

THE SCARIER MY LIPID PROFILE LOOKED.

LDLs higher

HDLs lower

Which was certainly a representation of the drugs I was was taking.

TESTOSTERONE DERIVATIVES (testosterone cypionate, testosterone enanthate, testosterone propionate) seemed to have the most sinister effect on my lipid profile.

WHICH IS KINDA SCARY SINCE THE "IN" THING NOW IS

TESTOSTERONE REPLACEMENT

What I called

JUICING

back then is now called

"LOW T"

with replacement to follow!!!

EVEN SUPPORTED BY TV COMMERCIALS!!!:laugh:

Makes me concerned about the many american dudes out there taking exogenous testosterone.... I wonder

ARE THEY WATCHING THEIR LIPID PROFILE??

I reached a comfortable level of drug use where I saw I needed to GO HIGHER IN ORDER TO

GO HIGHER IN THE SPORT.

I wasn't willing to do that because the

INHERENT RISKS OUTWEIGHED THE BENEFITS.

Assuming you're not trying to compete on the national level tho, I can tell you with confidence that cycling steroids in moderation is very safe.

JUST WATCH YOUR LIPID PROFILE.

OR

Just Cycle

NANDROLONE ONLY.

THE WORLD'S CLEANEST STEROID, ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.

THE CLEANEST, LOWEST RISK BANG FOR YOUR BUCK.

Or so I've heard.
 
Last edited:
jetproppilot said:
I was able to

WORK FULL TIME AS AN MD AND ALSO

MAINTAIN A PROFESSIONAL BODYBUILDER'S

TRAINING AND DIET.

That sounds like a

REALLY LARGE ACCOMPLISHMENT

but it's really not man.

RONNIE COLEMAN WAS A COP

in his early days, training and competing on the National Level while working a fulltime job as a policeman.

I REACHED A PINNACLE

I used alotta Performance Enhancing Drugs.

This may sound like a rationalization to most of you out there, but

I USED PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUGS

SCIENTIFICALLY.

I followed my body and my blood work.

WHAT WOULD I HAVE NEEDED TO GO FURTHER?

I would've had to gone out of the envelope I considered "safe" in terms of doses of performance enhancing drugs.

I had

STEROID USE

down to a

SCIENCE.

I monitored my body/labs and

KNEW

SCIENTIFICALLY

how far I could push the envelope.

SAFELY.

I got to

JUST UNDER 250 lbs.

That's as far as I felt comfortable pushing the envelope. From a physician point of view, I knew

PUSHING FURTHER CARRIED RISK I WASN'T WILLING TO TAKE.

I followed my blood work studiously during my PED use. The literature speaks of and everyone speaks of LIVER DYSFUNCTION as the risk...

I DIDN'T SEE THAT.

Yeah, I saw my LFTs a little above normal but nothing to be worried about.

KNOW WHAT WORRIED ME?

MY LIPID PROFILE.

The higher I went with PEDs

THE SCARIER MY LIPID PROFILE LOOKED.

LDLs higher

HDLs lower

Which was certainly a representation of the drugs I was was taking.

TESTOSTERONE DERIVATIVES (testosterone cypionate, testosterone enanthate, testosterone propionate) seemed to have the most sinister effect on my lipid profile.

WHICH IS KINDA SCARY SINCE THE "IN" THING NOW IS

TESTOSTERONE REPLACEMENT

What I called

JUICING

back then is now called

"LOW T"

with replacement to follow!!!

EVEN SUPPORTED BY TV COMMERCIALS!!!:laugh:

Makes me concerned about the many american dudes out there taking exogenous testosterone.... I wonder

ARE THEY WATCHING THEIR LIPID PROFILE??

I reached a comfortable level of drug use where I saw I needed to GO HIGHER IN ORDER TO

GO HIGHER IN THE SPORT.

I wasn't willing to do that because the

INHERENT RISKS OUTWEIGHED THE BENEFITS.

Assuming you're not trying to compete on the national level tho, I can tell you with confidence that cycling steroids in moderation is very safe.

JUST WATCH YOUR LIPID PROFILE.

OR

Just Cycle

NANDROLONE ONLY.

THE WORLD'S CLEANEST STEROID, ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.

THE CLEANEST, LOWEST RISK BANG FOR YOUR BUCK.

Or so I've heard.
Click to expand...

I respect you for telling the truth, Jet.

I'm curious. Is it standard protocol that the professional-level bodybuilders have a physician watching their labs, lipid profile, etc. or do they just do these things piecemeal using guesswork by themselves? How are they able to find physicians willing to help with their protocols? Last question for now, do you still train? I'm interested in reading your routine and how you fit it around a busy anesthesia schedule.
 
OutRun said:
I respect you for telling the truth, Jet.

I'm curious. Is it standard protocol that the professional-level bodybuilders have a physician watching their labs, lipid profile, etc. or do they just do these things piecemeal using guesswork by themselves? How are they able to find physicians willing to help with their protocols? Last question for now, do you still train? I'm interested in reading your routine and how you fit it around a busy anesthesia schedule.
Click to expand...

I knew only one bodybuilder whose name made the headlines

Nasser ElSonBaty

so I can't speak globally about professional bodybuilders,

BUT

I was ensconced in the bodybuilding culture for so long back in the nineties along with

BEING THE PHYSICIAN THING

that I feel I can speak words that are meaningful, relevant and truthful.

OutRun,

YOUR QUESTIONS ARE RELEVANT

It was my observation that

PROFESSIONAL BODYBUILDERS DO THEIR THING

"PIECEMEAL"

as you put it, as sad as that sounds.

THE TRUTH:

Professional bodybuilders

USE DRUGS

to achieve their

FREAKY

ROCK HARD

VASCULAR

PHYSIQUE.

As a collective group they are not, from my physician standpoint, adequately monitored, and ensuant morbidity/mortality occurs:

1) ARNOLD HAD A VALVE REPLACEMENT

2)FLEX WHEELER HAD A KIDNEY TRANSPLANT

3) NASSER ELSONBATY IS

DEAD.

4)ANDREAS MUNZER IS

DEAD.

Performance enhancing drugs most certainly contributed to the above.

I feel the above dudes could've still been great bodybuilders and used the (obligatory) PEDs

and avoided morbidity/mortality

HAD THEY HAD A

M.D. WITH KNOWLEDGE ABOUT PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUGS

in their corner.

I know this post will cause an

OUTLASH

and my private email will soon be full of hate mail.

Before you send me PRIVATE HATE MAIL

I want you to

SIT BACK FOR A MINUTE

and realize that

PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUGS ARE USED BY ATHLETES

IN EVERY SPORT.

You, the consumers,

ARE NAIVE.

PEDs in bodybuilding are overt because, well, it's

BODYBUILDING.
 
Last edited:
It seemed like Munzer took it to a whole other level. Even other BBers were leery of how insanely ripped he was getting.
 
jetproppilot said:
I knew only one bodybuilder whose name made the headlines

Nasser ElSonBaty

so I can't speak globally about professional bodybuilders,

BUT

I was ensconced in the bodybuilding culture for so long back in the nineties along with

BEING THE PHYSICIAN THING

that I feel I can speak words that are meaningful, relevant and truthful.

OutRun,

YOUR QUESTIONS ARE RELEVANT

It was my observation that

PROFESSIONAL BODYBUILDERS DO THEIR THING

"PIECEMEAL"

as you put it, as sad as that sounds.

THE TRUTH:

Professional bodybuilders

USE DRUGS

to achieve their

FREAKY

ROCK HARD

VASCULAR

PHYSIQUE.

As a collective group they are not, from my physician standpoint, adequately monitored, and ensuant morbidity/mortality occurs:

1) ARNOLD HAD A VALVE REPLACEMENT

2)FLEX WHEELER HAD A KIDNEY TRANSPLANT

3) NASSER ELSONBATY IS

DEAD.

4)ANDREAS MUNZER IS

DEAD.

Performance enhancing drugs most certainly contributed to the above.

I feel the above dudes could've still been great bodybuilders and used the (obligatory) PEDs

and avoided morbidity/mortality

HAD THEY HAD A

M.D. WITH KNOWLEDGE ABOUT PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUGS

in their corner.

I know this post will cause an

OUTLASH

and my private email will soon be full of hate mail.

Before you send me PRIVATE HATE MAIL

I want you to

SIT BACK FOR A MINUTE

and realize that

PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUGS ARE USED BY ATHLETES

IN EVERY SPORT.

You, the consumers,

ARE NAIVE.

PEDs in bodybuilding are overt because, well, it's

BODYBUILDING.
Click to expand...

Jet my armchair analysis is that it's not the AAS which causes most of the problems. It's the extreme cutting and diuretics, especially causing renal failure.
 
Jet,

Here's a provocative question for you (or anyone else with some experience).

We know that even "simple" Testosterone will increase strength, RECOVERY for sure, and generally have a positive effect on mood, thought I've not heard any suggest it causes any kind of euphoria.

The question is, in a stressful work environment, do you think a higher than normal (each person is different) T level is an advantage? Getting more out of the day? Greater ability to handle stressors on a daily basis?

Athletes use AAS for faster recovery (from physical stress). What about the PP guy taking overnight call, maybe working a 1/2 (or full) day post call (if the group allows). Working hard, staying late, getting up to do it all over again the next day in a busy, fast, PP setting?

Advantage?
 
Current stats and pics or GTFO. You go first. :laugh:

My sups:
USP Jack3d
USP BCAA
Gaspari Myofusion
Gaspari SizeOn

What do you dudes like?
 
Last edited:
DreamMachine said:
Current stats and pics or GTFO. You go first. :laugh:

My sups:
USP Jack3d
USP BCAA
Gaspari Myofusion
Gaspari SizeOn

What do you dudes like?
Click to expand...

WTF Brah???! Postin supps without stats!? How long you ben liftin? If you haven't been liften hard at least 5 years with hard dieting, you have ZERO business taking ANYTHING brah. K? Now go back and READ and stop wasting our time.

hahaha Nothing compares to the epic flames you see on some of the bodybuilding forums...... Funny as hell.
 
gasattack3 said:
WTF Brah???! Postin supps without stats!? How long you ben liftin? If you haven't been liften hard at least 5 years with hard dieting, you have ZERO business taking ANYTHING brah. K? Now go back and READ and stop wasting our time.

hahaha Nothing compares to the epic flames you see on some of the bodybuilding forums...... Funny as hell.
Click to expand...

LOL. That stuff is so entertaining.
 
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