The HRSA predicts an oversupply of ~50,000 pharmacists by 2025; similar predictions for NPs/PAs

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Wow, I guess I stand corrected and the average AA starting salary is <65k and the salaries offered in real job postings (as well as those being offered to new grads) are pure shams. @seanfrommemo, have you been briefed on the latest income stats for AAs yet? Hopefully you don't have any illusions about earning a six figure income when you graduate and have resigned yourself to making $60k-$70k when you graduate :laugh:
I wasn't trying to argue the starting salary of AAs, just trying to explain to you what you seemingly had missed.

Personally if I were looking at job options, I would take aggregate data over single job openings to base my decisions on.

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Wow, I guess I stand corrected and the average AA starting salary is <65k and the salaries offered in real job postings (as well as those being offered to new grads) are pure shams. @seanfrommemo, have you been briefed on the latest income stats for AAs yet? Hopefully you don't have any illusions about earning a six figure income when you graduate and have resigned yourself to making $60k-$70k when you graduate :laugh:

Serious question(s) though...

I notice the job you posted from gaswork, as well as, a lot of your posts mention "CRNA/AA". Obviously an AA is fully qualified to do this job, but how do AA candidates fair against CRNA candidates when competing for the same job? Especially AA candidates such as your future self (please correct me if I'm wrong) that have little-to-no real healthcare experience outside of an academic setting? Obviously some AA's will have this experience too, but aren't all CRNA's required to have at least 2 years of experience as an RN, working in critical care?

So... yes, in 2 to 3 years you could be technically qualified on paper to get one of these CRNA/AA dream jobs, but are you going to be a competitive enough candidate to actually get one? Just because a job is posted, you meet the minimum requirements & apply, doesn't mean you automatically get it.
 
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I can't psychologically process this
 
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How many positions is this relative to the entire population of pharmacists who want jobs in Atlanta? And how many of them require residency (all of them, or experience)? Also, keep in mind that many of these jobs are already spoken for by a resident at the same hospital. My area also has several hospital pharmacist job listings posted, but the DOP at the hospital told me they aren't actually hiring for the positions; they are just required to post them because of some sort of compliance rule (in fact, they haven't hired a pharmacist in 4 years).

As an aside, look at the last job posting... a $95k starting salary, and I can guarantee you that job requires completion of at least a PGY-1! And people say I'm making it up when I say that hospital pharmacists in the southeast start at <$100k?

Like I have also said in this thread, even if there are legitimate hospital pharmacist job opportunities out there, the ROI is not worth it to me. To qualify for that $95k hospital pharmacist job, I would be looking at spending 3 more years in pharmacy school taking classes that don't reflect real-life pharmacy practice, and then I'd have to spend a minimum of 1 in residency (likely 2 by the time I graduate?) just to meet the bare-minimum qualifications for most hospital pharmacist jobs. And for what? A job that pays less than six figures?

As I said just a few posts prior to this one, I can graduate from AA school within the same amount of time it would take me to finish pharmacy school, and I'd actually be saving a year over how long it would take me to complete a PGY-1. Even if I don't get accepted to AA school on the first attempt and have to re-apply a year later, I'd still be graduating sooner than one of my (now former) classmates who pursue PGY-2s. And not only that, but starting over with AA school would actually see me graduating with less debt overall than I'd have if I had finished pharmacy school, and I would be earning a higher starting salary, better benefits, and more PTO (very important to me). That's the point I'm trying to make: all factors being equal, AA is a smarter route for anyone to take unless they truly love what pharmacy has decomposed into.
 
Serious question(s) though...

I notice the job you posted from gaswork, as well as, a lot of your posts mention "CRNA/AA". Obviously an AA is fully qualified to do this job, but how do AA candidates fair against CRNA candidates when competing for the same job? Especially AA candidates such as your future self (please correct me if I'm wrong) that have little-to-no real healthcare experience outside of an academic setting? Obviously some AA's will have this experience too, but aren't all CRNA's required to have at least 2 years of experience as an RN, working in critical care?

So... yes, in 2 to 3 years you could be technically qualified on paper to get one of these CRNA/AA dream jobs, but are you going to be a competitive enough candidate to actually get one? Just because a job is posted, you meet the minimum requirements & apply, doesn't mean you automatically get it.

Generally speaking, if a practice hires both AAs and CRNAs, they indiscriminately hire both of them (or they will hire whichever candidate has the most anesthesia experience, regardless of whether they're an AA or CRNA). In most cases, groups don't care about a CRNA's prior work experience as an RN. The only ones that might are independently-practicing CRNA groups that AA's can't work for anyways. But it might all be a moot point anyways, because (and I say this tentatively) there *may* be an AA-to-CRNA bridge program in the works. If such a bridge program is created, then an AA would eventually be able to enjoy all the additional professional perks of being a CRNA.
 
You have mentioned multiple times there was 1 CVS job posting. That's it.
There are 104 jobs posted on indeed currently. Yes some are probably tech jobs or non-pharmacist jobs but still. Emory pay starts at 105K.

I am almost positive almost all hospitals get at least 3-4 weeks of vacation, some more, up to 6 weeks. 2 weeks is strictly retail.



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I said before that there was only 1 CVS job posted because that is the only job being actively hired for. One of the hospital networks has had the same static job listing posted for over 2 years now, but they're not actually hiring anyone for it. It's a placeholder/fixture, according to the DOP (at least one other poster here from GA knows exactly which hospital I'm talking about).

Maybe you'd be happy with the $105k offered by Emory, but the AAs/CRNAs at all their hospitals start off at $140k or higher (depending on shift worked) along with 6 weeks of PTO. When you also factor the 3 additional weeks of PTO that the AA/CRNA gets (as compared to a hospital pharmacist's 3 or 4), then the income disparity is even higher. You're talking about leaving at least $40k on the table.

If becoming an AA was going to take 2-3x as long as it would take for me to finish pharmacy school and also cost 2-3x as much, then I don't think it would be as smart of a decision to make, but when you consider that even now, AA school would be a FASTER and CHEAPER route (not to mention a more lucrative one that leads to a better job market), it becomes a question of, can I actually justify NOT going to AA school? Or to put it another way, can I really justify proceeding, in good conscience, with pharmacy school, if I know that there is an alternative career out there that would save me time and money to pursue and also provide for a better future (especially for someone who already has debt like myself)?

As an side, it would be really interesting to find out how many applicants those Atlanta pharmacist job listings receive.
 
@PAtoPharm, what was your ultimate conclusion about Podiatry? That seemed to me like the best route to becoming a doctor and leading a relatively saturation free life. Many pods make 120k-150K starting out and top off around the 220K-250K mark. Very little call, get to help people, and the closest thing to medicine without actually going to "medical school".
 
@PAtoPharm, what was your ultimate conclusion about Podiatry? That seemed to me like the best route to becoming a doctor and leading a relatively saturation free life. Many pods make 120k-150K starting out and top off around the 220K-250K mark. Very little call, get to help people, and the closest thing to medicine without actually going to "medical school".

Haven't really looked into it for several reasons. The schools seem to be very expensive, feet are nasty (even women's), and the process of becoming DPM would take just as long as becoming an MD/DO. Granted, I haven't done much research into the pathway, but it seems like as more time passes, I just want to do something I can start and be done with in couple of years. But maybe podiatry is worth researching, even just for the heck of it.
 
You keep saying 6 weeks PTO like it is standard for all AA jobs. I clicked on 2 or 3 on gaswerks link and they said 5-6... Again, just proves you spout the best of one side and worst of another.

In my area, all anesthesia groups have offered 6 wks PTO for at least 15 years (this is coming from a partner anesthesiologist who is letting me shadow their AAs). And I would say that 5 wks of PTO still proves my point that the standard AA/CRNA offer is better than what almost any pharmacist gets, even to work in hospital. If you want to accuse me of posting "best case scenario" AA job listings, I'll show you groups in BFE that offer 7-8 weeks to start. In that case, you'd have a point if I had been saying that most AAs start off at 8 wks of PTO while retail pharmacists only started off with 2, but pointing out that some anesthesia groups "only" offer 5 wks isn't exactly proving it.

The fact is, once a retail pharmacist takes 2 one-way vacations, that's it for the PTO until next year, but an AA/CRNA who gets 5 wks still has three more vacations to look forward to. I guess it all depends on which factors matter the most to someone, but I just can't imagine leaving that much time/money on the table, especially in light of all the other factors that make AA/CRNA a better deal for someone who doesn't have a die-hard, borderline extremist level of commitment to pharmacy.
 
Eh, I get about 6.5 weeks a year and I'm nothing special. Pharmacy typically has pretty good benefits outside of retail.
 
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Eh, I get about 6.5 weeks a year and I'm nothing special. Pharmacy typically has pretty good benefits outside of retail.

Yeah, and it comes with the trade-off of having salary. If you were to ask around to see what the CRNAs (and AAs, if they use them) were earning and what their benefits looked like at your hospital, you'd probably be surprised. I say this under the assumption that you (like several other posters here) flat-out deny that anesthetists typically earn more than pharmacists. Also, I forgot to mention that most groups offer at least 5-7 holidays per year in addition to the PTO. I know that in my area, they offer 10 paid holidays in addition to the 6 weeks of PTO. Even in saturated areas, AAs/CRNAs usually get at least 5 wks of PTO plus the paid holidays.

Like I said, even if all other factors were equal, I have to ask myself -- can I seriously justify leaving $30k-$80k/year (considering that AAs/CRNAs have much higher income ceilings than pharmacists) on the table? (not to mention that the AA route is faster/cheaper/leads to better job market)
 
I say this under the assumption that you (like several other posters here) flat-out deny that anesthetists typically earn more than pharmacists.
I don't flat-out deny anything. I'm obviously not as passionate or invested in this matter as you are, so it should come as no surprise that I haven't researched it at all. I'm just amazed that you apparently don't remember me telling you about low pharmacist pay in the SE (I started at 95k in the Miami area), job saturation, increasing requirements for the same old job. We talked about this for a solid year! Why are you acting like I'm some sort of pharmacist job-market denier?

Anyway, with regard to benefits..


If they are an employee of the hospital they're probably actually have the same benefits the pharmacist does. And if it's a private group good luck doing the student loan forgiveness program- highly doubt that is considered a non-profit group...

This is true. All hospital employees have the same benefits package. Time off will vary based on length of tenure and if you are hourly / salary / management.

Being salaried has its perks. Sure, I don't get any OT.. but I basically come and go as I please. Besides, I can count on one hand the number of days I have worked >8 hours. I don't have a set schedule, they just want us to be reasonable with when we arrive. It's low stress for sure, leaving me with enough energy to pick up one weekend a month of actual pharmacist work in a different hospital for a very generous hourly rate.
 
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If they are an employee of the hospital they're probably actually have the same benefits the pharmacist does. And if it's a private group good luck doing the student loan forgiveness program- highly doubt that is considered a non-profit group...

Almost all anesthetists work as employees of an anesthesia group in the US. Most of them try to pay off their loans in 3-4 years anyways instead of depending on the student loan forgiveness program. Also, it's a moot point for me since the hospitals in my area have now been (or are in talks to be) purchased by for-profit hospital systems (think Community Health System, Lifepoint Health, Piedmont out of Atlanta). So regardless of whether I'm a pharmacist or an AA or any other hospital employee, I won't be getting PSLF.

But that's why anesthetists get paid such uniquely good benefits/PTO/income packages -- they are typically employees of an anesthesia group, not the hospital. Another thing the AAs and CRNAs that I know love about their work is that they are sometimes get to go home early (they each do 3 cases per day at the hospital I'm shadowing at, and then they get to go home) without having their pay docked, but if they stay late (past 3 PM), they start earning a really nice "premium pay" rate (their term for OT).

That is another thing that makes me glad I'm getting the hell out of pharmacy. The thought of having to stay late or come in early or attend a conference call off the clock sounds an incredibly raw deal. It sucks that I wasted a year in pharmacy school, but at least that's all I wasted.
 
I don't flat-out deny anything. I'm obviously not as passionate or invested in this matter as you are, so it should come as no surprise that I haven't researched it at all. I'm just amazed that you apparently don't remember me telling you about low pharmacist pay in the SE (I started at 95k in the Miami area), job saturation, increasing requirements for the same old job. We talked about this for a solid year! Why are you acting like I'm some sort of pharmacist job-market denier?

Anyway, with regard to benefits..




This is true. All hospital employees have the same benefits package. Time off will vary based on length of tenure and if you are hourly / salary / management.

Being salaried has its perks. Sure, I don't get any OT.. but I basically come and go as I please. Besides, I can count on one hand the number of days I have worked >8 hours. I don't have a set schedule, they just want us to be reasonable with when we arrive. It's low stress for sure, leaving me with enough energy to pick up one weekend a month of actual pharmacist work in a different hospital for a very generous hourly rate.

See what I said in my post before this one in regards to benefits packages that anesthetists receive. Most of them are employees of private anesthesia groups, not hospitals.

Yes, you did try to tell me that salaries in the SE were low and that the job market was saturated, but at the time, the job market in my area was still very good. You might remember me asking you if $18/hour was a good shift differential for a night shift hospital pharmacist job, and you said it was a great shift differential. I remember thinking at the time "wow, that shift differential basically makes up for the income disparity between AAs/CRNAs and pharmacists." Then the job market here got massively flooded starting last fall/winter when the c/o 2016 grads got licensed and entered the market. I had no idea that would happen (no other health profession's job market is flooded here, and I've never heard of it happening before). The fact that my area is getting flooded with pharmacists is an indication of just how bad the job market truly is on a regional/state level.

BTW, as an aside, everyone has been bashing the rad tech/NMT field, but just for fun, try and recall that I posted a few months ago that it was a local hospital DOP who recommended the NMT program to me in the first place. What does it say about pharmacy that DOPs with decades of experience are advising pharmacy students to pursue allied health professions that are so much intellectually dumbed-down than pharmacy?
 
PA2Pharm, NMT is not a glorious field to be in, and I highly doubt most pharmacists have any idea about their work (especially a DOP).

A friend of mine was a NMT for a little while before pharmacy school, and what made him decide to go to pharmacy was the various bodily functions/excrements that he had to clean up from his patients.
 
BTW, as an aside, everyone has been bashing the rad tech/NMT field, but just for fun, try and recall that I posted a few months ago that it was a local hospital DOP who recommended the NMT program to me in the first place. What does it say about pharmacy that DOPs with decades of experience are advising pharmacy students to pursue allied health professions that are so much intellectually dumbed-down than pharmacy?

$18/hr? With that kind of shift differential I would quit my informatics job and take an overnight position in a heartbeat. I don't remember the exact number, but I think I got $5/hr as an overnight differential in my old job.

Anyway, with regard to that DOP recommendation.. just remember in mind that most people out there aren't keeping up with the latest state of things. Your average person isn't constantly researching this stuff and obsessing about it, that's more common with us insane internet people. NMT is a great job and I would encourage someone to follow that path, but I have zero knowledge of the job market. I'm just as ignorant about it as the average person is about pharmacy. That DOP probably recommends the pharmacy field to his family because they haven't been looking for an entry level position in quite some time, and they probably don't realize how expensive it is now either.

As an aside, I wouldn't be surprised if healthcare as a whole enters into a steep decline. Healthcare has been the big field for high paying jobs for the past few decades, and it seems like every position is slowly becoming saturated. There may come a time soon when we all wish we had studied computer science.
 
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That is another thing that makes me glad I'm getting the hell out of pharmacy. The thought of having to stay late or come in early or attend a conference call off the clock sounds an incredibly raw deal.
I have never had to stay late or come in early or attend conference calls that weren't made up elsewhere in my schedule (i.e. stay 30 minutes late today, leave 30 minutes early tomorrow). And those things are not at all exclusive to pharmacy.

BTW, as an aside, everyone has been bashing the rad tech/NMT field, but just for fun, try and recall that I posted a few months ago that it was a local hospital DOP who recommended the NMT program to me in the first place. What does it say about pharmacy that DOPs with decades of experience are advising pharmacy students to pursue allied health professions that are so much intellectually dumbed-down than pharmacy?
It might say more about you individually than the fields themselves. If I had a pharmacy student who seemingly had no interest in pharmacy, I'd recommend other fields to them as well.
 
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$18/hr? With that kind of shift differential I would quit my informatics job and take an overnight position in a heartbeat. I don't remember the exact number, but I think I got $5/hr as an overnight differential in my old job.

Anyway, with regard to that DOP recommendation.. just remember in mind that most people out there aren't keeping up with the latest state of things. Your average person isn't constantly researching this stuff and obsessing about it, that's more common with us insane internet people. NMT is a great job and I would encourage someone to follow that path, but I have zero knowledge of the job market. I'm just as ignorant about it as the average person is about pharmacy. That DOP probably recommends the pharmacy field to his family because they haven't been looking for an entry level position in quite some time, and they probably don't realize how expensive it is now either.

As an aside, I wouldn't be surprised if healthcare as a whole enters into a steep decline. Healthcare has been the big field for high paying jobs for the past few decades, and it seems like every position is slowly becoming saturated. There may come a time soon when we all wish we had studied computer science.

@gwarm01 @PharmDBro2017 Actually, the point I was making was the the DOP is advising others to NOT go to pharmacy school. They didn't recommend the NMT career to me because of its association with pharmacy; they just recommended because the pay is decent and because it seem like it offers a better ROI than pharmacy. So the point I was trying to make is that even pharmacists who haven't had to look for jobs since the early 1980s are advising people -- even those who are already enrolled in pharmacy school -- to pursue something else.

Anyways, I mention that because I have decided to become an NMT (again, I'm AA all the way), just like I didn't mention the rad tech field because I'm actually pursuing that. Ironically enough, the DOP, who doesn't know that I was previously enrolled in AA school, advised me to look into "PA anesthetist" (which is what a lot of people in the southeast refer to AAs as) programs. Their daughter graduated from HS recently, and they want her to do nursing school with the goal of becoming a CRNA. Again, nobody around here is advising anyone to pursue pharmacy.

BTW, regarding the $18/hour shift differential for the overnight hospital pharmacist job that was posted last year, I specifically remember you saying that an $18/hour SD was "pretty great." That's what I mean... when I made the ill-fated decision to go to pharmacy school, the job market was GREAT here, but within 6 months of me matriculating into pharmacy school, it became totally saturated. But I acknowledge that starting pharmacy school was my mistake.

In response to your last point, I don't think that all healthcare fields are going to enter a steep decline. I think that physicians and NPs/PAs/CRNAs will always do better than pharmacists, even when their job markets become relatively saturated, simply because they can perform basic health assessments and interventions and bill the insurance companies for those services (I.e., they can do "doctor work"). I think that's something that is going to ensure that pharmacists are never able to claw their way out of the hole they're digging for themselves -- the market seems to desire more healthcare professionals who can work as "providers" in the sense I just described, and that's something that pharmacists will never have. I don't mean literally in terms of having provider status, but in terms of having the ability to do a basic health assessment, provide a diagnosis, perform treatment, and write a prescription. I know that lots of people will insist that pharmacists should focus on performing their traditional dispensing duties and "own" that, but what's ironic (and sad) is that the market for that is shrinking as well (closings, mergers, etc.). There is just no future in this field, at least not for me.
 
It might say more about you individually than the fields themselves. If I had a pharmacy student who seemingly had no interest in pharmacy, I'd recommend other fields to them as well.

Yeah, but they don't know that about me. They even told their own kid to do nursing school and then CRNA and to stay the hell out of pharmacy.
 
Being salaried has its perks. Sure, I don't get any OT.. but I basically come and go as I please. Besides, I can count on one hand the number of days I have worked >8 hours. I don't have a set schedule, they just want us to be reasonable with when we arrive. It's low stress for sure, leaving me with enough energy to pick up one weekend a month of actual pharmacist work in a different hospital for a very generous hourly rate.

Your job sounds awesome...
 
Your job sounds awesome...
It's not bad, but it's not great. In the end, everything is a job. It sounds better in writing than it actually is.
 
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