I don't think anyone here has any ulterior motives driving them to talk about the saturation. When both the HRSA and BLS are predicting an oversupply of at least 56k pharmacists (according to the most optimistic projections), scaring off 3 or 4 pre-pharms isn't even a drop in (or out of, in this case) the bucket.
The HRSA predicts an oversupply of ~50,000 pharmacists by 2025; similar predictions for NPs/PAs
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I don't think anyone here has any ulterior motives driving them to talk about the saturation. When both the HRSA and BLS are predicting an oversupply of at least 56k pharmacists (according to the most optimistic projections), scaring off 3 or 4 pre-pharms isn't even a drop in (or out of, in this case) the bucket.
Not bad? In certain areas, primary care docs (FP/IM/pediatricians) are starting out at salaries close to that amount, and with less PTO! On top of that, they have to work more hours (I.e., by taking call, which pushes the average workweek to 55-60 hrs -- perhaps even more?) to earn what they earn. In other words, who actually earns more... an AA/CRNA who works 40 hrs/week for $151k and 6 wks PTO, or an FP doc who works 55 hrs/week for $175k and only 2 wks PTO to start?
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It's a long story, but basically I'm a non-trad with a kind of unique situation...
Lol you and the other 15,000 kids who "suddenly saw the light" and went into pharmacy. We really are the snowflake generation.
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No, you're way off base.
I didn't practice enough when I was in AA school and failed the basic elements. The thing about real-life anesthesia practice is that 99% of the time, most surgeries are predictable and uneventful -- it's that 1% of the time when the s*** really hits the fan. Even my former classmates have said that, after spending a few months actually working as AA students in the OR, they think the lab simulation finals are overblown in difficulty and intensity. It just takes practice. On the other hand, pharmacy has become a profession that is the other way around -- 99% of the time it is stressful and miserable, and maybe 1-2% it is actually calm and laid-back (maybe more often for hospital pharmacists?). If you watch videos on Youtube of an AA/CRNA doing anesthesia during a surgery, you'll see that most of their time is spent sitting and monitoring the patient's values during surgery and administering drugs when needed. Conversely, in pharmacy, I will be condemning myself to a future that involves me standing for hours on end, trying my best to multitask practically every minute of every day, and being too tired to go to the gym or do anything after work.
I don't care if there is a chance that I could fail out of AA school again. The AA/CRNA professions are so much better off than that I realize I am actually doing myself a disservice by not at least trying to be successful with it. Even if I wasn't intent on going back to AA school, pharmacy on its own has become a terrible investment as a career.
Lol, everyone has their reason how they ended up in pharmacy and try to play it off like its some greater calling. You're in it the same reason everyone else is, quit thinking you're special.
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PA, you do realize that part of your training is to be able to handle to unpredictable events even if they are rare.
The fact that you didn't take AA seriously by not practicing enough is disappointing to say the least.
The fact that you didn't take AA seriously by not practicing enough is disappointing to say the least.
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The sky is the limit in any profession actually, just harder in RX!!! In your case AA is a better return of course, but will it make you happy? Thats the tough question
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PAtoPharmD please tell us which pharmacy school you go to or private message me the details.
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LOL at your BS. Now that you've realized you screwed yourself of ever getting into medical school, you're now trashing the family practice doctors. I don't know where you're getting your info but it seems you're pulling your facts from thin air. A family practice doctor working 30-40 hours a week will make 180K almost anywhere in the country. If you add in more hours (on-call, PRN, or moonlighting), then the FP can easily get 230K-300K depending on their geographic location. But most of the younger FP docs like to have a life outside work, so they settle for salaries in the 180-200K range.
On the other hand, I've heard of CRNAs and AAs making 160-200K, but that's when they work an additional 15-20 hours a week.
I don't know why you keep on quoting your supposed 'AA classmates' or 'pharmacists' on these forums. Every pharmacist you've mentioned is supposedly making 80-90K and hates their job. And every AA is supposedly making 150K and living it up. I know a lot of pharmacists. Some I know regret their decision to become a pharmacist and they live a miserable life. But I know a lot more pharmacists who are content with their job and are able to easily pull in 120-160K salaries on just FTE. Some of them are family members. I have never seen them regret their decision to become a pharmacist. Its not a glorious profession, but it can be a good one if you put work into it.
So enough with your f#$@ing stories. I don't want to hear your excuses. The only thing you do on these forums is post excuses for why you don't want to follow through with a commitment. You'll never get anything done if all you do is run away at the first sight of danger.
Are you blind? Did you not see the salaries posted on the AA/CRNA jobs website? If you want a more "robust" statistic, then how about this:
Nurse Anesthetists
I'm sure this is just more BS to you, but even the BLS shows that CRNAs earn a median income of $160k+. On the other hand, the same BLS source we have all seen indicates that pharmacists earn just over $122k in terms of median income.
Why is it that whenever I post an anecdotal story, people rush to point out that it's "just what 5 or 10 pharmacists have to say," but when someone else pulls numbers out of thin air (such as those regarding AA/CRNA incomes), of course they're objectively correct?
If wanting to do something else in the face of abysmal employment (or more like unemployment) projections counts as running away at the first sign of danger, then I'm guilty as charged. Between the stats that have been posted numerous times and what the apparently ill-informed DMs I have talked to have to say, it must all be BS because of course everyone else's fact-disproving anecdotes have to be true.
Edit: No, I did not make the comparison to FP doctors because I don't think I could ever get accepted to medical school. I think that with a high MCAT score, I could get accepted to a newer DO program (which I have said before). My point was that I would probably rather spend just 2 more years in school to earn close to what a primary care doctor makes, rather than spend 7-8 more years in school to actually BE a primary care doctor (this is one of the reasons I decided to go to AA school in the first place).
Keep in mind, you can insist all you want that I'm cherry-picking examples of AAs who are in unusually lucrative positions and comparing them to pharmacists who are in unusually bad job markets, but you won't find a single report anywhere on the internet or anywhere else about AAs/CRNAs having their hours cut to 20 hrs. Also, you can check out ANY AA job posting on Gaswork.com and see that even the lower-paying jobs are still advertising 5-6 weeks of PTO. There isn't a pharmacist job in the country that offers that much time off to start (except DOP, maybe?). That benefit alone makes AA/CRNA school worth pursuing over pharmacy, even if both professions paid the same annual income on average.
Last edit: And FP docs really do earn only $150k-$170k (includes taking call) working for the hospital systems here. The insurance payer mix demographics in my area range between 88%-92% Medicare/Medicaid/indigent during any random year, so the primary care docs who work as hospital employees aren't doing that well (obviously, private practice can be a different story). I was comparing hospital FP/IM doc incomes to AA incomes since AAs almost always work in hospitals.
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Maybe cause all of your stories have the same theme. What about success stories? believe it or not, there are some.. I have three classmates that i know personally who opened up their pharmacies... I have classmates who are making great money in managed care, amb care, hospital. Having great job satisfaction.. It's def possible.
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Bump for update...if there is any
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Nothing yet. When classes are finished, going to review the GRE math content and re-take that (required for both AA school and PA school)
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Agreed. Plus, what corporation would have ever allowed a person to directly supervise their spouse? Absolutely none. most corporations won't even allow spouses to work in the same department together.
You are talking about 2 completely different kinds of stress. Unless you are an ER/CCU pharmacist (which the vast majority of pharmacists aren't), then you aren't dealing with the stress of making split seconds decisions that could KILL a patient if you are wrong. Yes, pharmacy is stressful and in most jobs you will be working extremely fast. But you can go extremely fast because most of the prescriptions and orders you fill are routine and familiar to you. When you encounter one that isn't, then you take whatever time you need to check it out before filling it...and all the routine orders just have to wait. And no, you are completely wrong if you think 99% of pharmacists are miserable, the vast majority of pharmacists find the stress level tolerable, and there are some who actually thrive on it.
I can give you an anecdotal story back for every anecdotal story you post. I know many pharmacists from school, from my various jobs, from participating in local pharmacist groups and conventions. The vast majority of the pharmacists I know may have general job complaints, like with any job, but overall, they are satisfied, if not out and out happy, with their job. The few pharmacists I've known who became extremely unhappy with their job (myself included at one time), moved on into a different job.
Wow... Over-analyzing supply/demand stats aside, you speak of these 2 jobs like a high school student who has no real-world experience in either. Might as well be watching a live video from the International Space Station, and be like "Hey, that looks easy! Those guys just float around all day, drinking tang and playing zero-G ping pong! I can do that!"
Yes. We get it. You don't find pharmacy worthwhile. Not a crime, in fact, pretty understandable. We are convinced. Now please stop emotionally pleasuring yourself by repeatedly stacking up the worst pharmacy jobs against the best AA/PA jobs.
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This thread is a joke, along with the OP. You're putting way too much stock into the economics associated with these professions. Is that something you should consider? Absolutely. You'd be an idiot not to. However, at this point you should just finish pharmacy school and move to an ideal geographical region that would offer employment. I guarantee you that other applicants for those PA school spots will get them over you given that you've bailed on two professions already. You're not an attractive applicant for admissions committees. Not finishing out pharmacy school and moving forward as a pharmacist at this point is going to be a mistake, and you'll find out soon enough if you split on pharmacy school at this point. You should have considered the outlook in pharmacy before you accepted the seat.
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You aren't the first person to tell him this. Nor the 2nd or 3rd. Not sure if you are the 4th, I stopped counting after the 3rd. He refuses to listen to any logic. And it's not the first time, there were many, many people telling him not to go into pharmacy (myself included) because it was obvious to all of us, that it would be a poor fit for him. He refused to listen then, and he didn't learn, so he still refuses to listen. Still, the more people who point out the obvious to him, the better. I doubt anyone will be able to help him this time around, but maybe after he makes this next huge mistake, and goes back and realizes how many people tried to warn him, maybe then he will be willing to listen to advice going forward.
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I absolutely agree with you. His best bet is just finishing out and moving to a very rural location for a couple of years to chip away at the debt. Afterwards he can look for something in metro Georgia if that's where he's from. He's just trying to reason with everyone utilizing articulation and long essay type responses thinking that makes it sound like what he's doing is logical, but it's not. The time he's wasting by doing all this is a gigantic sunk cost at this point, and even more so if he drops.
I just felt that it was worth posting that PA schools won't accept him unless it's one of those that costs an absurd amount. Why would they take a chance on someone who bailed on AA and pharmacy, and is trying to fall back on PA school as a third option? I've read too many accounts of medical school applicants that fell back on PA school and were rejected because it was apparent that was their fallback. This guy would be in a much worse situation that those accounts.
The point I made before is that regardless of the career, I'm not willing to move to an extremely rural BFE area. It doesn't matter if it's for pharmacy or anything else. Also, I said before that applying/re-applying to AA and PA programs despite the risk of getting rejected is a risk I'm willing to take. If worse comes to worst, I will apply to the bachelor's-level programs I mentioned before or even do a local accelerated nursing program (at least 2 other former AA school classmates of mine who were also kicked out are taking that route). It would be unpleasant because of the nature of the nursing work, but it's something I'd simply have to push through.
The other thing is that regardless of what the profession actually is, I don't want to be a part of one whose "leaders" seem to be actively working against their constituency in an attempt to make things even worse. It would be one thing if the job market was showing signs of recovering (it's not), but even if that was the case, the various national pharmacy organizations would still probably try and do what they could to continue to push the profession down the drain.
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To be honest, your best bet outside of pharmacy is probably a quick nursing degree and find a nice relax nursing home to work in. You'll grow as a person and maybe a few years later transition back to the hospital and from there to NP.
"Traditional" nursing work (like what you mentioned) is not what I would pursue. There are now online NP programs that accept applicants with an average 3.0 GPA and have NO work experience requirements. Programs like this have existed for a while and are now starting to open up in GA. So if I went the nursing route, I would apply to NP programs during my last semester of nursing school. Before someone jumps in and says that just because an NP program's admissions requirements state no experience is required it doesn't mean that many people actually get accepted without any, this actually describes the "average matriculant" at many NP programs these days, including at least one local program (I.e., their average matriculant is accepted with a 3.0 GPA and has no nursing work experience).
... Starting off in a nursing home? Transitioning back to the hospital? Was that whole post supposed to be some kind of put-down?
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Elaborate.
It's like telling someone who had a hard time with an engineering-level math class that they need to retreat to taking a pre-algebra class. Doing a plan B is one thing, but what you are suggesting almost sounds like suggesting that I do something intentionally lower-level than what I'd realistically need to stoop to. I.e., why would I need to go work at some nursing home upon graduation if I went the nursing route? Why not apply to NP programs around the time I graduate? Or at least work for a year or two in a nursing field that would actually give me eligible experience for the NP programs that still do require experience?
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Because he is very good at eliciting reactions and getting people to respond. Sometimes I just can't help it.
Because he is very good at eliciting reactions and getting people to respond. Sometimes I just can't help it.
Keep in mind, even in threads started by others in which I simply ask the OP a question that has nothing to do with my own situation, that is exactly what people insist on bringing up, even when that's not even my intention.
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Yes, it's almost like people think you are only here for one reason or something. Very unfair. I will try to get them to stop, promise.
D
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No. If you are referring to me, I was trying to prevent your walls of text taking over someone else's thread, which inevitably appear every time someone answers your "innocent" question. It's like you use people's response to further your agenda, time and time again. In fact, that's all I've seen you do. Bash this profession.
I think a lot of us genuinely want you to figure things out for yourself and become successful. Rehashing the same things over and over again is annoying and a waste of good people's time. It's disrespectful to the people who have put in time and effort to help you on here by giving you real world advice.
Honestly, I wish the admins would come and shut this thread down. They do that all the time in the other forums.
There is no way your comments and endless bashing and complaining about pharmacy would fly in front of the other admins. I've seen them ban people for much less, especially when people come to a forum for a certain profession and endlessly bash that same profession.
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You don't have to stay in a rural BFE area forever. You can just wait it out in one until you're able to secure a position closer to home. That's what the majority of my pharmacist friends are currently doing. They're floating around parts of Alabama and Tennessee they don't necessarily want to be in hoping to land full time gigs at some point within the next 5 years closer to where they'd ultimately like to end up living. Also a lot of rural locations in the Midwest, Texas, etc are still paying pharmacists well. I saw a post on Reddit recently from some guy in rural Iowa that's pulling down 130-140K with less than 2 years experience. Pharmacy is in a situation similar to the outlook of most who major in business, in which if you're not willing to move for a job you're not going to climb up the ladder (in this case chip away at your debt by finding a high paying pharmacist job) much if at all.
If you're going to indeed drop pharmacy school you'd be better off going back and attempting to get a CS or accounting degree and just change industries altogether.
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I don't know you, but I do know that I respect my nursing staff as much as I respect my attendings and working in a more relaxed setting can breed humanity and humility. Why do you think that work is beneath you? I don't particularly think anyone in the hospital have a job that is above me or beneath me and that will be a good attitude for you to go through life.
Trust me, busting your ass for 60-70 hours a week for 120k just isn't worth it when you can do 35 hours a week for 60-80k.
Plus, realstically, with your record you need to prove continued excellence and commitment to ONE field over time.
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The difference is, most us us are entertained by the soap opera PAToPharm. Seriously, maybe after he bails out on his 3rd or 4th career choice, he can just write a book, or make a You Tube movie of his life. I like good, fluffy, entertainment like that. I'd even pay $0.99 for the kindle version, to do my part in helping him chip away at his everlasting mountain of debt.
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OP would be the worst nurse in the world. I have worked as a CNA and I don't care what anyone says, you have to love what you do. He clearly doesn't. The joy I got at the end of the day is un-explainable and someone like OP couldn't feel what we feel in his wildest dream. OP has absolutely no business in the medical field.
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This. The *only* reason OP has ever given for wanting to go into a healthcare profession is that he expects to make a lot of money from the job. This is the real reason he keeps failing/switching career options, he is trying to get a degree in a field in which he has zero interest and zero aptitude.
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Being unfair to OP here in my opinion. If you come from a small city in Georgia where the only successful people are healthcare workers, then you would probably also aspire to work in a healthcare profession.
OP probably didn't know when he was making his life choices that a lot of software engineers/accountants/engineers/financiers easily make 6 figures after a few years of work experience. So I don't fault the OP for going for initially choosing a health care profession, but I do fault him for going into pharmacy after ignoring everyone's advice about the saturated job market.
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OP may not have known about other job options before he failed out of PA school, but he was told multiple times here about other job options that would better fit his personality than any medical profession...and he still chose to go into pharmacy. Now he wants to drop out of pharmacy (before he fails out of that, as he has posted he is finding it hard to be "motivated" to keep up his grades), and he is considering yet a 3rd health care profession. If he was anyone else, I'd agree with you that I was being too hard on him, but OP is completely oblivious to anything anyone says on here, so it's not possible to be too hard on him.
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I come from this type of situation. I grew up in a town that had a population of just over 4,000, so the most successful individuals were either entrepreneurs or those in healthcare (doctors, dentists, optometrists, etc). In hindsight, anything in the tech field would have been a very smart route to take if you're just concerned with salary (web dev, programmer, etc). However, I would never recommend finance to someone unless they graduated from a target school (although I think I gained a ton of useful information from my finance degree). You're not going to make any more if you even match what most healthcare professionals pull in otherwise in most cases. You're definitely not guaranteed it and there are a lot more factors involved than just studying, exams, and checking certain boxes. The same can be said of engineers and accountants. Most cap out making less than a doc, dentist, pharmacist, and PA. Also engineering is on a downturn for a handful of sectors. Computer science, sales, or pursuing opening up your own business as entrepreneur are the only rivals I think currently match or can exceed the earning potential of healthcare professions at the given moment. That won't be the case when the student loan bubble bursts though or we reach an even more astronomical cost of attendance.
I get why OP is targeting healthcare professions, although he clearly doesn't have the personality type that can adjust to being an efficient healthcare worker for the patients he'd be serving IMO. At some point you've got to have an epiphany that you may have your own individual underlying motives for pursuing a certain profession, but the patients come first. That's not a personal shot, it's just reality. I'd pursue another industry if I were him.
That is actually a good point. Even in the medium-sized cities in GA, there are very few opportunities to make really high incomes outside of healthcare. In fact, the trend for the last few years in my area has been for the people who have gotten finance and other various degrees to return to college to do an accelerated nursing program or pursue PA school admissions. Unless you move to a large city in the southeast, there just aren't very many opportunities outside of standard retail jobs that you probably won't ever make more than $15/hour doing.
What about the hundreds of thousands of people who are pursuing going to PA, dental, etc. schools? Remember that none of these healthcare programs (except medical school) were competitive to gain admission to in the 1990s, but now, they're all competitive to get accepted to. Do you think it's coincidental that the increase in competitiveness came along at the same time these professions starting paying lots of money? Of course not; that is what attracted so many applicants to these fields in the first place and made the admissions processes competitive. In fact, when I was in high school and pharmacy entered the golden years, that's what made everyone decide they wanted to become a pharmacist (most people even admitted it). So why am I destined to fail for choosing a healthcare job for pragmatic factors like job security, money, benefits, etc., but many thousands of other people have successfully pursued these same professions with the same motives?
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You are not destined for fail but it's a difficult row to hoe if those are your primary reasons and you are not competent and don't like the work. The last two you yourself questioned w.r.t. working for CVS
After three years, my BP is still normal and I never lose sleep over work, and I don't hate it, but others are not so lucky
After three years, my BP is still normal and I never lose sleep over work, and I don't hate it, but others are not so lucky
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Xray/CT scan/MRI techs are careers in healthcare that people can make good salary with very little student debt.
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I never said you were destined to fail. You spun it that way yourself. I just think if money and security are your primary motivators and you've already been through two healthcare graduate programs, it's time to start thinking about an alternative industry that offers what you're looking for. I personally don't think you'll get past another admission's committee. Again that's not a shot. I'm just telling you like it is so that you may make a more informed and better decision about your future. Although maybe I'm wrong. Baker Mayfield as small and underrecruited as he was went from a walk-on, to the starting QB at Texas Tech, to a walk-on at Oklahoma, to the starting QB of OU and Heisman trophy candidate. So even the unlikeliest of situations can surprise people in the end. You could get into AA/PA school. I just wouldn't bet on it because it's a longshot. Possible, but not probable.
Again, if I were you I'd just roll with pharmacy and make the best of it because it's still a better position to be in than a lot of people in this country. You can make the best of it and even possibly land one of the jobs you're vying for somewhere down the road. It's also more of a career centered around analytical thinking compared to that of a PA, and I think that suits your personality more.
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Bump for an update!!
@PAtoPharm how is the application cycle going for... PA? AA? NP? DO/post-bacc? Or did you decide to register for PY2 year of pharmacy school after all?
@PAtoPharm how is the application cycle going for... PA? AA? NP? DO/post-bacc? Or did you decide to register for PY2 year of pharmacy school after all?
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LOL.
Look at this and weep you chumps
If doctors wanted to be wealthy, they would have become UPS truck drivers
Look at this and weep you chumps
If doctors wanted to be wealthy, they would have become UPS truck drivers
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Wow, I pretty much forgot about this thread. To give an update while I still remember to visit SDN from time to time, I'm taking the GRE next month and will be sending out my AA/PA school applications after that. I am also applying to a local 3-semester RN program and a radiology tech program just to have additional options. The rad tech program is somewhat appealing because I can complete that program in a year and then become a NMT after that with additional training/certs/courses. NMT's make within $4-$5/hour of what local hospital pharmacists earn, and I got in touch with an NMT manager/director who makes over $130k for doing low-stress work and with no student loan debt to pay back. The rad tech pathway is also flexible because rad techs can pursue additional school/training to become radiation therapists and then dosimetrists, who earn six figure incomes.
At this point, I am totally done with pharmacy school and will not be returning to school next fall. Even the preceptor I had during the spring semester told me "in good conscience" to at least consider other options, and I didn't even ask her if it was a bad idea to continue pursuing pharmacy. She said it's a good idea to get out while it's still early for me. I have also gotten in touch with c/0 2017 grads who are looking at relocating to rural MS and LA because there are literally no jobs left in most of civilized GA. A couple of the younger ones I talked to who don't have that much in loans to pay back are looking at applying to PA or nursing programs.
Pharmacy school has been the biggest mistake of my life, and my now well-informed family thinks I'd be insane to resume classes in the fall. There is literally one job opening in my area right now, and that is at a CVS that hasn't been able to keep a single FT pharmacist on staff. The last one they hired quit after 2 days, and they sadly had previous retail experience. There is absolutely no future in this field.
At the very least, pharmacy school was a good opportunity to raise my GPA so that I can be more competitive for AA/PA program admissions.
At this point, I am totally done with pharmacy school and will not be returning to school next fall. Even the preceptor I had during the spring semester told me "in good conscience" to at least consider other options, and I didn't even ask her if it was a bad idea to continue pursuing pharmacy. She said it's a good idea to get out while it's still early for me. I have also gotten in touch with c/0 2017 grads who are looking at relocating to rural MS and LA because there are literally no jobs left in most of civilized GA. A couple of the younger ones I talked to who don't have that much in loans to pay back are looking at applying to PA or nursing programs.
Pharmacy school has been the biggest mistake of my life, and my now well-informed family thinks I'd be insane to resume classes in the fall. There is literally one job opening in my area right now, and that is at a CVS that hasn't been able to keep a single FT pharmacist on staff. The last one they hired quit after 2 days, and they sadly had previous retail experience. There is absolutely no future in this field.
At the very least, pharmacy school was a good opportunity to raise my GPA so that I can be more competitive for AA/PA program admissions.
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Wow... sounds like your mind is made up... good luck
Thanks. I also forgot to mention that I am in the process of getting a PT anesthesia tech job with the anesthesia group that allowed me to shadow them prior to my first attempt at AA school. I really want to be able to put this on my application/resume prior to submitting my AA school apps
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