The HRSA predicts an oversupply of ~50,000 pharmacists by 2025; similar predictions for NPs/PAs

[sakigt]

If you want to go to ANY school:
1. Do it cheaply
2. Work in the field during school
3. Live within your means
4. Never stop improving/learning/doing uncomfortable stuff

And yes. Youll be fine. Think youre going to borrow 150k and land that M-F 9-5 gig your preceptor has and do that until you're 65? Fat. Chance.
Youre gonna work holidays. Weekends. Evenings. Youre going to have to spend your days off taking CE. Study for BCPS at night. Study for whatever comes after the BCPS in 5 years. And while doing all of this youre going to have to skip the phone every two years, the eating out 3x a week, vacas and the new cars and the nice place that's a little out of budget with the 45 minute commute if you want any chance of NOT paying HALF A MILLION DOLLARS to the GOVERNMENT by extending your loans to 10 years (or greater!). Your significant other will have to accept this as well. Your friends and family will too.

But honestly I feel this way about any career. There is no safe job in this new economy. Slow and steady wins the race. Basically do the opposite of what Morning Network news thinks is the "hottest new trend." Hence the fear mongering by the older millennials like myself and above.

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[steveysmith54]

I agree with you, except that my interpretation of "living with the consequences" is to accept the fact that I've wasted almost a year of time and money pursuing that I probably won't have a future in. BTW, I don't know if this is the case with the pharmacy job market in other areas of the country, but here in the southeast, even working as a pharmacy student intern during school no longer provides someone with a high likelihood of having a job. I have spoken with the DMs of several "desirable" retail pharmacy companies (grocery chains that pharmacists like to work for, at least as compared to CVS/Walgreens), and the DMs at every company said that in many of their districts, they had a large handful of interns (sometimes as many as 14+) but were only able to give FT jobs to 1 or 2. They told me that many of their interns from the most recent graduating class were only offered 1-2 PRN days/month. All the other pharmacy students made sure to work as interns during school, but the majority of them still didn't have jobs upon graduation because the jobs just weren't there for all of them.

So that's another example of what I mean -- if there was only a slightly oversupply of pharmacists, then working as an intern during pharmacy school would probably be enough for most students to secure a job upon graduation. But when the magnitude of the saturation is THOUSANDS more pharmacists than there are jobs, then even many of those who made sure to work as interns during pharmacy school are going to be left without a job (or just a PRN gig). Let me ask you this... if a particular district has 12-15 interns working for a particular chain and only 2 positions come open around the time they all graduate, then what are the 10-13 interns who don't have jobs (or who only have PRN jobs for 1 or 2 days/month) supposed to do, especially if most chains prefer to hire interns who actually worked for their own company during school?

I agree with you, except that my interpretation of "living with the consequences" is to accept the fact that I've wasted almost a year of time and money pursuing that I probably won't have a future in. BTW, I don't know if this is the case with the pharmacy job market in other areas of the country, but here in the southeast, even working as a pharmacy student intern during school no longer provides someone with a high likelihood of having a job. I have spoken with the DMs of several "desirable" retail pharmacy companies (grocery chains that pharmacists like to work for, at least as compared to CVS/Walgreens), and the DMs at every company said that in many of their districts, they had a large handful of interns (sometimes as many as 14+) but were only able to give FT jobs to 1 or 2. They told me that many of their interns from the most recent graduating class were only offered 1-2 PRN days/month. All the other pharmacy students made sure to work as interns during school, but the majority of them still didn't have jobs upon graduation because the jobs just weren't there for all of them.

So that's another example of what I mean -- if there was only a slightly oversupply of pharmacists, then working as an intern during pharmacy school would probably be enough for most students to secure a job upon graduation. But when the magnitude of the saturation is THOUSANDS more pharmacists than there are jobs, then even many of those who made sure to work as interns during pharmacy school are going to be left without a job (or just a PRN gig). Let me ask you this... if a particular district has 12-15 interns working for a particular chain and only 2 positions come open around the time they all graduate, then what are the 10-13 interns who don't have jobs (or who only have PRN jobs for 1 or 2 days/month) supposed to do, especially if most chains prefer to hire interns who actually worked for their own company during school?

Your example is cute. Grocery stores for retail pharmacists are like government jobs. Very little turn over, if any. The places that hire are the ones where the working conditions are so ****ty that people can't handle it. That's where I started and most people nowadays start.

What I meant about "living with the consequences" is you chose to fail out of AA school. This is the reality of pharmacy profession now, IMO not too many professional schools want students with history of being in AA and Pharm.D. programs, I may be wrong; but i doubt it.

 

[PAtoPharm]

3. For the poster that's contemplating dropping out, I don't think DO or MD is in your cards because the prior histories of failing out/ quitting programs. Sorry.

What about a post-bac certificate program like this? If a student earns at least a certain minimum over the course of 2 semesters of classes, they are guaranteed admission to the DO program:

https://www.vcom.edu/premedical_admissions

I have to admit, I have been lending more consideration to an option like this one lately. Just forget pharmacy and PA and all these second-rate careers altogether and go for the most worthwhile alternative. Because of my academic history, I think a post-bac program like the one I linked to above would be my only hope.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Your example is cute. Grocery stores for retail pharmacists are like government jobs. Very little turn over, if any. The places that hire are the ones where the working conditions are so ****ty that people can't handle it. That's where I started and most people nowadays start.

What I meant about "living with the consequences" is you chose to fail out of AA school. This is the reality of pharmacy profession now, IMO not too many professional schools want students with history of being in AA and Pharm.D. programs, I may be wrong; but i doubt it.

So hold on a second -- so now my example of the 12 or 13 grocery store interns being out of a job doesn't "count" because everyone in pharmacy should know that it isn't realistic in general to expect to get a grocery store job? First, the general claim was that someone who works as an intern while in pharmacy school would have a good chance of getting a pharmacist job with that company when they graduate... now, it's "of course the majority of interns who work for a grocery chain aren't going to get jobs when they graduate, you should know that." So what does that leave in terms of pharmacy settings/companies someone can work as an intern in and expect to have a somewhat reasonable chance of getting hired by upon graduation? Just CVS?

 

[Jbrl]

What about a post-bac certificate program like this? If a student earns at least a certain minimum over the course of 2 semesters of classes, they are guaranteed admission to the DO program:

https://www.vcom.edu/premedical_admissions

I have to admit, I have been lending more consideration to an option like this one lately. Just forget pharmacy and PA altogether and go for the most worthwhile alternative.

There are many people who try to get into programs like those, who don't have the track record you'd have if you leave pharmacy school. Leaving 2 programs (failing and willingly leaving) is a big deal no matter how you slice it. It's the kiss of death for MD/DO.

 

[PAtoPharm]

There are many people who try to get into programs like those, who don't have the track record you'd have if you leave pharmacy school.

So? It doesn't hurt to apply. If I don't get accepted on the first attempt, I can re-apply the next year and work as a medical assistant or medical scribe in the interim. I'll apply to every DO post-bac program in the country if I have to; many schools have similar programs.

 

[Jbrl]

So? It doesn't hurt to apply. If I don't get accepted on the first attempt, I can re-apply the next year and work as a medical assistant or medical scribe in the interim. I'll apply to every DO post-bac program in the country if I have to; many schools have similar programs.

How many times are you willing to try? How many years do you want to devote? How dedicated will you be, when history has shown otherwise? DO isn't a walk in the park, and it isn't the cush, relatively low-stress job you're looking for. We're 10 pages and 2 months in, but it seems you haven't narrowed anything down.

Also, applying isn't cheap, and people applying to these programs and direct MD/DO programs apply very broadly (20 schools, etc). Applying to every program isn't going to help you much when you have very clear red flags.

The clearest question now is: what the heck do you want? It seems you don't really know, so you continually chase something other than what you have.

 

[PAtoPharm]

How many times are you willing to try? How many years do you want to devote? How dedicated will you be, when history has shown otherwise? DO isn't a walk in the park, and it isn't the cush, relatively low-stress job you're looking for. We're 10 pages and 2 months in, but it seems you haven't narrowed anything down.

I think I said in a previous post (either in this thread or another one) that I don't care how long the process takes at this point. I'm never getting married or having kids so I'm "missing out" on the things most people would be. At this point, it is an inevitability that I will be going on IBR or REPAYE even if I do finish pharmacy school, simply because of the nature of the job market and taking into consideration my future debt-to-income ratio. Ironically enough, even though something like DO school would add a substantial amount of debt, I'd actually have a fair chance of being able to pay it off the traditional way (simply because my debt-to-income ratio would be much more favorable as a physician). On the other hand, in pharmacy, I will be lucky to earn half of what my debt total will be, and this isn't even taking into account monthly interest accumulation.

 

[Jbrl]

I think I said in a previous post (either in this thread or another one) that I don't care how long the process takes at this point. I'm never getting married or having kids so I'm "missing out" on the things most people would be. At this point, it is an inevitability that I will be going on IBR or REPAYE even if I do finish pharmacy school, simply because of the nature of the job market and taking into consideration my future debt-to-income ratio. Ironically enough, even though something like DO school would add a substantial amount of debt, I'd actually have a fair chance of being able to pay it off the traditional way (simply because my debt-to-income ratio would be much more favorable as a physician). On the other hand, in pharmacy, I will be lucky to earn half of what my debt total will be, and this isn't even taking into account monthly interest accumulation.

Realistically speaking, this is what you have to look forward to, if by some reason you get accepted:
2-4yr of pre-reqs/volunteering/research/re-applying
2yr of special masters
4yr of school
3yr of residency
= 11-13yr

This is a big deal, man. You gotta think realistically and choose. You've thought long and hard for months and months. At this point, you have all the information you could ever need. Take your pick, talk to the right people to gauge probability of success, then just go do it

 

[PAtoPharm]

Realistically speaking, this is what you have to look forward to, if by some reason you get accepted:
2-4yr of pre-reqs/volunteering/research/re-applying
2yr of special masters
4yr of school
3yr of residency
= 11-13yr

This is a big deal, man. You gotta think realistically and choose. You've thought long and hard for months and months. At this point, you have all the information you could ever need. Take your pick, talk to the right people to gauge probability of success, then just go do it

I get that it would take a long time, but I think your timeline might be a bit off (4 years total to become competitive? but maybe...). At this point, I just don't care anymore and want to simply make the best long-term decision. Since the MCAT is not required for initial admission to the VCOM graduate certificate program I linked to, I'm thinking about just applying and seeing what happens. All I can lose is $27.

 

[steveysmith54]

So hold on a second -- so now my example of the 12 or 13 grocery store interns being out of a job doesn't "count" because everyone in pharmacy should know that it isn't realistic in general to expect to get a grocery store job? First, the general claim was that someone who works as an intern while in pharmacy school would have a good chance of getting a pharmacist job with that company when they graduate... now, it's "of course the majority of interns who work for a grocery chain aren't going to get jobs when they graduate, you should know that." So what does that leave in terms of pharmacy settings/companies someone can work as an intern in and expect to have a somewhat reasonable chance of getting hired by upon graduation? Just CVS?

Yes, in retail it's undesirable chains like cvs that actually hire... you seem surprised... oh that's right, you are as clueless as they come when it comes to pharmacy... you thought that you can land a grocery gig? Hahahahahba

 

[gwarm01]

I just want to say that many of you are being very cruel and its encouraging me to write this post. Some of these posts feel like they are meant to discourage anyone from entering the field for cynical reasons....

So I want to throw in my admittedly unknowledgeable 2 cents in.

I don't think anyone is being cruel. Most of us are practicing pharmacists who are trying to give people an honest take on the profession, where it is, and where it is going. High-school and college aged students only seem to get the extremely warped view of the profession that is being sold by the academy. You deserve to hear the experiences of practicing pharmacists and not just those of pie in the sky pharmacy professors who haven't stepped foot in a pharmacy in decades (or sometimes ever).

A lot of us were sold a false bill of goods when we decided to enter the field. Most of us have made it work and have been successful, others have not. Things have been getting worse for the better part of a decade now, and there are no signs of it slowing down. Schools are telling the same lies to potential students now that they were saying when I applied, when they know full well that things are going to get a lot worse before they get better.

I'm not convinced that the profession is doomed, but I think you should arm yourself with as much knowledge as possible when making such a large life decision like choosing a career. You always hear a lot of emotional arguments and rhetoric, but none of that will mean a thing when you are struggling to pay your loans when you thought you would be living your dream.

Think youre going to borrow 150k and land that M-F 9-5 gig your preceptor has and do that until you're 65? Fat. Chance.
Youre gonna work holidays. Weekends. Evenings.

Well said. It's the folly of the young pharmacist to think they are just going to get that cushy clinical coordinator position. I don't care if you did a residency, I don't care if you were Rho Chi. You will be here verifying orders from 1430 - 2300 on Saturday, on Christmas, your birthday, when your bro is in town. You will have to earn that job if you really want it, and even then it may never be yours.

Not that I would ever want it. Who wants to talk to students anyway? They're all delusional.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Since the MCAT is not required for initial admission to the VCOM graduate certificate program I linked to, I'm thinking about just applying and seeing what happens. All I can lose is $27.

I briefly clicked on the website you gave me about VCOM and to secure a spot to the med school you need to have MCAT score above 494 as well as positive feedback from faculties.

So you still need to take the MCAT. Studying for it during SMP
Would be difficult so ideally you should take it before hand.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Yes, in retail it's undesirable chains like cvs that actually hire... you seem surprised... oh that's right, you are as clueless as they come when it comes to pharmacy... you thought that you can land a grocery gig? Hahahahahba

Ok, so based on your laughing ("hahahahahaha"), I take it that these days, of course everyone knows that you can't get a grocery store pharmacy job as a new grad. So I'm assuming that's why so many pharmacy students are putting all their eggs into working as an intern for a grocery store chain, right? I mean, they can't be as clueless as me, right? The fact that they're now unemployed with $150k+ in loans to pay back is entirely their fault, because they should have known that in this job market, getting a grocery store job as a new pharmacist is just unrealistic thinking, right?

I'm starting to see a trend here. Whenever I provide evidence that the pharmacy job market has, in fact, changed for the worse, you act like what I'm pointing out is not actually an indication of the job market sucking and is instead "just me" not getting it. So the fact that 90% of a grocery store chain's interns are out of a job is not because the job market is bad -- it's actually just their fault for not knowing that OF COURSE you can't get one of those jobs as a new grad.

Here's a curveball for you: the situation is the same with CVS's and Walgreen's interns in my area. A pharmacy manager at the only remaining 24 hour store in my district said the same thing as the grocery store DM -- they could only hire a few of their interns in my district, not because the majority of the interns who didn't get hired were bad, but because they simply only had a few openings for them. Even now, there is only ONE part-time position open with CVS in my area. The situation is the same with Walgreens and their interns (although this is based on second-hand info).

I'm assuming that people are simply going to sling insults at me and not directly answer my question (as usual), but again, what did the 80-90% of interns who didn't get hired (even those working for CVS) do wrong? Is it all on them for somehow not outshining the few interns who managed to get hired?

 

[PAtoPharm]

I briefly clicked on the website you gave me about VCOM and to secure a spot to the med school you need to have MCAT score above 494 as well as positive feedback from faculties.

So you still need to take the MCAT. Studying for it during SMP
Would be difficult so ideally you should take it before hand.

Yeah, I'm planning on just applying to it (along with PA and AA schools) and then taking the MCAT over the summer. Honestly, considering the number of times I have taken the basic science courses between undergrad, AA, and pharmacy school, if I can't score at least a 494 on the MCAT, something is seriously wrong with me (and maybe there is, but I don't think it will manifest itself in the form of me bombing the MCAT).

 

[PAtoPharm]

I don't think anyone is being cruel. Most of us are practicing pharmacists who are trying to give people an honest take on the profession, where it is, and where it is going. High-school and college aged students only seem to get the extremely warped view of the profession that is being sold by the academy. You deserve to hear the experiences of practicing pharmacists and not just those of pie in the sky pharmacy professors who haven't stepped foot in a pharmacy in decades (or sometimes ever).

A lot of us were sold a false bill of goods when we decided to enter the field. Most of us have made it work and have been successful, others have not. Things have been getting worse for the better part of a decade now, and there are no signs of it slowing down. Schools are telling the same lies to potential students now that they were saying when I applied, when they know full well that things are going to get a lot worse before they get better.

I'm not convinced that the profession is doomed, but I think you should arm yourself with as much knowledge as possible when making such a large life decision like choosing a career. You always hear a lot of emotional arguments and rhetoric, but none of that will mean a thing when you are struggling to pay your loans when you thought you would be living your dream.



Well said. It's the folly of the young pharmacist to think they are just going to get that cushy clinical coordinator position. I don't care if you did a residency, I don't care if you were Rho Chi. You will be here verifying orders from 1430 - 2300 on Saturday, on Christmas, your birthday, when your bro is in town. You will have to earn that job if you really want it, and even then it may never be yours.

Not that I would ever want it. Who wants to talk to students anyway? They're all delusional.

This is what I don't get: whenever I provided evidence that the job market is becoming saturated, whether it is in the form of labor statistics corroborated by several government departments or real-life hiring trends (e.g., the majority of interns in my area not getting hired on by their companies as pharmacists), people always respond indirectly with some variation of saying that I just want a job to be handed to me because I'll have a degree, or that I just don't want to work hard, or that you have to work to get a job these days, etc. If you notice, nobody ever responds to the actual statements I make (e.g., that 90% of a chain's interns weren't hired on as pharmacists), and I think it's because they realize that their only logical response would be to acknowledge that yes, the job market sucks (and is getting worse) and that some pharmacists are going to be unemployed, regardless of what they do or how hard they work.

 

[738177]

I get that it would take a long time, but I think your timeline might be a bit off (4 years total to become competitive? but maybe...). At this point, I just don't care anymore and want to simply make the best long-term decision. Since the MCAT is not required for initial admission to the VCOM graduate certificate program I linked to, I'm thinking about just applying and seeing what happens. All I can lose is $27.

I suggested you doing a SMP before. But don't start these programs without taking the MCAT. Why? Because you won't have the time to study for the MCAT during the program considering that you'll be studying 8-10 hours a day. Given your history, these SMPs are the only way i see yourself getting into a DO school. Unfortunately, there's only 2-3 DO SMP's that give you guaranteed acceptance upon completion of the program (the rest give you guaranteed Interview).

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Yeah, I'm planning on just applying to it (along with PA and AA schools) and then taking the MCAT over the summer. Honestly, considering the number of times I have taken the basic science courses between undergrad, AA, and pharmacy school, if I can't score at least a 494 on the MCAT, something is seriously wrong with me (and maybe there is, but I don't think it will manifest itself in the form of me bombing the MCAT).

A lot of things can be unexpected, like failing out from AA school. You seem to strongly believe that you will do well in MCAT. Regardless, study a little and take it as soon as you can.

If you pursue this route you should drop out from pharmacy school and focus on one thing.

I also want to illustrate that there really isn't a short cut to life. I probably put in more than 8 hours a day working plus studying ever since I was an undergrad to get to where I am today. That has been going on for the past 12 years. In this last 12 years I been blessed with good health and have not taken a single sick day.

If you can show this kind of focus and see tasks to completion success will follow.

 

[steveysmith54]

Ok, so based on your laughing ("hahahahahaha"), I take it that these days, of course everyone knows that you can't get a grocery store pharmacy job as a new grad. So I'm assuming that's why so many pharmacy students are putting all their eggs into working as an intern for a grocery store chain, right? I mean, they can't be as clueless as me, right? The fact that they're now unemployed with $14
50k+ in loans to pay back is entirely their fault, because they should have known that in this job market, getting a grocery store job as a new pharmacist is just unrealistic thinking, right?

I'm starting to see a trend here. Whenever I provide evidence that the pharmacy job market has, in fact, changed for the worse, you act like what I'm pointing out is not actually an indication of the job market sucking and is instead "just me" not getting it. So the fact that 90% of a grocery store chain's interns are out of a job is not because the job market is bad -- it's actually just their fault for not knowing that OF COURSE you can't get one of those jobs as a new grad.

Here's a curveball for you: the situation is the same with CVS's and Walgreen's interns in my area. A pharmacy manager at the only remaining 24 hour store in my district said the same thing as the grocery store DM -- they could only hire a few of their interns in my district, not because the majority of the interns who didn't get hired were bad, but because they simply only had a few openings for them. Even now, there is only ONE part-time position open with CVS in my area. The situation is the same with Walgreens and their interns (although this is based on second-hand info).

I'm assuming that people are simply going to sling insults at me and not directly answer my question (as usual), but again, what did the 80-90% of interns who didn't get hired (even those working for CVS) do wrong? Is it all on them for somehow not outshining the few interns who managed to get hired?

1. You don't need to provide any stats that the job market sucks. You were told this by me and the masses before you applied. You failed to believe us. I told you this before, I am from CA, i know about saturation.

2. you bring on the insults yourself with your attitude and your questions in regards to "guarantees" etc. It's common sense that the most desired work sites, like grocery stores, that are like heaven of retail, are pretty much out of reach.

3. To answer why some for grocery stores as interns over CVS/Walgreens. Can be due to location, need to fulfill intern hours, gain experience, can't handle the pressures of CVS, and chance to get your foot in the door. If there is an outside job, I'll take an intern with experience from a grocery store over someone with zero experience.

4. To answer your curve ball question, the good thing about CVS/walgreens is that they have massive amount of stores. I precept students and from my experience the interns that are not hired in the district where they are working, but have solid reputations will be provided a list of districts that have availability. For example, I had a student who was working for CVS' district in Los Angeles wasn't hired. His DM liked him a lot and he got a full time offer in northen California's district. He did well there and came back about a year later to be a PIC in LA. Will this always be the case (offer from an outside district), answer is no. However, as said before I'll take someone that already knows the computer system and "culture" of the company.

5. When I was graduating, I was just hoping to get one offer within 100 miles of LA, i didn't care from what chain. That was long long time ago. You can't expect much more than that nowadays if you are going in the retail chain route. Others have pointed out to you, including an MD, that your shots at MD/DO programs aren't very good.

 

[PAtoPharm]

A lot of things can be unexpected, like failing out from AA school. You seem to strongly believe that you will do well in MCAT. Regardless, study a little and take it as soon as you can.

If you pursue this route you should drop out from pharmacy school and focus on one thing.

I also want to illustrate that there really isn't a short cut to life. I probably put in more than 8 hours a day working plus studying ever since I was an undergrad to get to where I am today. That has been going on for the past 12 years. In this last 12 years I been blessed with good health and have not taken a single sick day.

If you can show this kind of focus and see tasks to completion success will follow.

So you also worked during medical school? It's not that I don't believe you -- I'm just surprised you did, if that's the case (since I've always heard that most medical students have to spend most of their time studying and that the vast majority of them couldn't work if they wanted to).

On the topic of studying and just out of curiosity, how much would you say you studied in medical school? On average, how much material (in terms of PPT slides, I'm assuming) is covered on a daily basis in medical school classes? Actually, if you happen to remember details like this, how many PPT slides are covered on a typical medical school exam?

 

[DrfluffyMD]

So you also worked during medical school? It's not that I don't believe you -- I'm just surprised you did, if that's the case (since I've always heard that most medical students have to spend most of their time studying and that the vast majority of them couldn't work if they wanted to).

On the topic of studying and just out of curiosity, how much would you say you studied in medical school? On average, how much material (in terms of PPT slides, I'm assuming) is covered on a daily basis in medical school classes? Actually, if you happen to remember details like this, how many PPT slides are covered on a typical medical school exam?

By working I mean working on the subjects, aka my career in medicine. I did not work outside of that. As far as exam goes...

Each indivdual exam covers about half of a major textbook's material or all of a textbooks material. I think some of them covers about 3 month worth of lectures, with each lecture having between 40-150 ppt slides. But that doesn't matter

What matters are the board exam scores, which you have to pass and do well in for any of the specialty you mentioned. I am a radiology resident. We had 1300+ MD plus DO applying for 1200 or so spots this year so it's competitive. I would not choose a specialty now however as things and interest do change. You heard about radiology becoming less competitive but it's bad up again.

Onto the board exam. For step 1 I've essentially wrote my own textbook by preparing over 4000 flash cards. I believe a significant portion of medical students do similiar things. I did very well in that exam but then again I was 99% on MCAT also. Some of this stuff may be natural aptitude for multiple choices also. Point is, step 1 cover everything on basic science.

Step 2ck covers everything clinical based and 2cs covers clinical knowledge. It's generally difficult to describe the course work load to someone who haven't done it. I would say the effort required is probably at least 4x college. Almost every physician I ran into went to a top 10 undergrad so keep in mind that's the comparison scale.

When you first become a resident, you will work about 80 hours or more a week. Most of the time you are handling patient care, sometimes you are cleaning up **** or bile. Other times you are wheeling people around. You put your head down and do what's necessary for the job.

The actual radiology residency isn't too bad, if it isn't for that fact that you need to have indepth knowledge of both cliniclal medicine, radiology aka what thousands of diseases look like on 20 different imaging modualities, as well as medical physicis so you can past your boards.

Folks typically spend about 1-4 hours per day to study besides work. There are other things like research which I enjoy and do.

And when we graduate, unless you do primary care (which pays below 200k) usually, you cannot really chose where you practice that much. Ending back to a specific city is difficult. (I've been told that going to Johns Hopkins or Harvard for next stage of trainingwill maximumize my chance of going to a particular midwest city since my wife is now there, think columbus, OH and the like because the job market is good but not good enough to pin point the city). I don't know if you are willing to hustle for things like that but to get those big name you have to hustle pretty hard, probably a bit more than finding a spot at Walgreen for pharmacy internship but then again I haven't been in a pharmacist shoes so I don't know.

So in summary grass is not as green as you think. I envy my friends everyday who are able to spend time in NYC (born and raised there, but had to leave town for med school). I am sure you can understand what is it like to be forced to leave your home town.

Other sacrifices, like not having a single shared day off with my wife who is also in medicine, or having to spend the few hours we have together both studying because of boards, etc.

We don't mind those sacrifices, as you do it anyway to achieve your goal, at least in my case.

Medicine isn't like law or business. Achieving success is relatively easier. You just have to do the same thing, work, study, and do well, consistently year after year. Each time you fail you end up having a big mark against you. Each time you fail a door closes. Hell, some door slamed on me just because I had to leave NYC to go to the "Podunk" that is midwest, which I don't think so but certain people in charge of recruitment do.

 

[PAtoPharm]

1. You don't need to provide any stats that the job market sucks. You were told this by me and the masses before you applied. You failed to believe us. I told you this before, I am from CA, i know about saturation.

2. you bring on the insults yourself with your attitude and your questions in regards to "guarantees" etc. It's common sense that the most desired work sites, like grocery stores, that are like heaven of retail, are pretty much out of reach.

3. To answer why some for grocery stores as interns over CVS/Walgreens. Can be due to location, need to fulfill intern hours, gain experience, can't handle the pressures of CVS, and chance to get your foot in the door. If there is an outside job, I'll take an intern with experience from a grocery store over someone with zero experience.

4. To answer your curve ball question, the good thing about CVS/walgreens is that they have massive amount of stores. I precept students and from my experience the interns that are not hired in the district where they are working, but have solid reputations will be provided a list of districts that have availability. For example, I had a student who was working for CVS' district in Los Angeles wasn't hired. His DM liked him a lot and he got a full time offer in northen California's district. He did well there and came back about a year later to be a PIC in LA. Will this always be the case (offer from an outside district), answer is no. However, as said before I'll take someone that already knows the computer system and "culture" of the company.

5. When I was graduating, I was just hoping to get one offer within 100 miles of LA, i didn't care from what chain. That was long long time ago. You can't expect much more than that nowadays if you are going in the retail chain route. Others have pointed out to you, including an MD, that your shots at MD/DO programs aren't very good.

Well, that settles it. If working for CVS/Walgreens upon graduation is a best-case scenario outcome for me (or anyone going into pharmacy these days), I am absolutely quitting pharmacy school, even if I don't have any other careers lined up. Just because DO school or PA/AA school is a long shot, it doesn't mean I will be better off staying in pharmacy school. Simply put, continuing down a doomsday pathway (regardless of my likelihood of getting into another career) is, on its own merits, a bad idea.

And the retail chain route is really the only viable route I ever had in pharmacy. I would never be competitive enough to get accepted to a residency program and never was interested in one anyways, and so that means retail is my only possible route since residency completion is now a requirement for most hospital jobs. I know that I won't be able to handle the pressure of working for a company like CVS. I'm not the only one -- I have talked to other pharmacy students who have only ever worked as techs at chains like Publix, Bi-Lo, Walmart Neighborhood Market, and other "desirable" chains, and all of them fully expect to be hired by those chains when they graduate from pharmacy school. Several of them said they would work in a different profession before they resorted to working for CVS. I guess they'll be in for a rude awakening. That's what is sad about the whole job market situation. Within a year or two, graduates will be fighting with each other for the jobs that are traditionally considered to be the worst in the industry (I.e., CVS).

What's also sad is that the organizations that are supposed to represent and promote pharmacists' interests are not only not trying to prevent/reverse the inevitable job market outcome, but they actually appear to be trying to make it worse. A few months ago, there was an op-ed published in the Pharmacy Times that was written by someone from (I think) the AACP, and they admonished naysayers for spreading ridiculous "false rumors" (or something like that) regarding there being too many schools. The APhA also has remained silent on the matter. It seems like pharmacy is the only healthcare profession with this kind of political "status"; the PA, dental, CRNA, MD/DO, and other healthcare professions at least enjoy the benefit of having professional organizations that actually represent the interests of their constituency. And at least the AAPA is actually pushing for legislation that has a legitimate chance of passing.... whereas the pharmacy provider status bill is unlikely to ever pass.

Like I said, I'm so glad I'll be leaving this all behind, even if the future is otherwise uncertain.

 

[steveysmith54]

Well, that settles it. If working for CVS/Walgreens upon graduation is a best-case scenario outcome for me (or anyone going into pharmacy these days), I am absolutely quitting pharmacy school, even if I don't have any other careers lined up. Just because DO school or PA/AA school is a long shot, it doesn't mean I will be better off staying in pharmacy school. Simply put, continuing down a doomsday pathway (regardless of my likelihood of getting into another career) is, on its own merits, a bad idea.

And the retail chain route is really the only viable route I ever had in pharmacy. I would never be competitive enough to get accepted to a residency program and never was interested in one anyways, and so that means retail is my only possible route since residency completion is now a requirement for most hospital jobs. I know that I won't be able to handle the pressure of working for a company like CVS. I'm not the only one -- I have talked to other pharmacy students who have only ever worked as techs at chains like Publix, Bi-Lo, Walmart Neighborhood Market, and other "desirable" chains, and all of them fully expect to be hired by those chains when they graduate from pharmacy school. Several of them said they would work in a different profession before they resorted to working for CVS. I guess they'll be in for a rude awakening. That's what is sad about the whole job market situation. Within a year or two, graduates will be fighting with each other for the jobs that are traditionally considered to be the worst in the industry (I.e., CVS).

What's also sad is that the organizations that are supposed to represent and promote pharmacists' interests are not only not trying to prevent/reverse the inevitable job market outcome, but they actually appear to be trying to make it worse. A few months ago, there was an op-ed published in the Pharmacy Times that was written by someone from (I think) the AACP, and they admonished naysayers for spreading ridiculous "false rumors" (or something like that) regarding there being too many schools. The APhA also has remained silent on the matter. It seems like pharmacy is the only healthcare profession with this kind of political "status"; the PA, dental, CRNA, MD/DO, and other healthcare professions at least enjoy the benefit of having professional organizations that actually represent the interests of their constituency. And at least the AAPA is actually pushing for legislation that has a legitimate chance of passing.... whereas the pharmacy provider status bill is unlikely to ever pass.

Like I said, I'm so glad I'll be leaving this all behind, even if the future is otherwise uncertain.

If I were in your shoes, I'd stay and graduate. Just adjust your expectations and learn to be realistic. I'd stay bc there are viable paths and opportunities to be successful, includes independent pharmacy, LTC, transitioning to grocery store chains etc. I will be honest with you, pharmacy is a blue collar profession for the most part, not a cerebral one. I wouldn't count myself out and say I can't do CVS. It may take some time to get where you want to be, good chance that you will have a very humble beginning. I started out part time after working like a maniac intern and busting my ass for 4 yrs. I am a glass half empty and a pessimist when it comes to pharmacy, but I still believe that it's possible to have a good life being a pharmacist today.

 

[PAtoPharm]

By working I mean working on the subjects, aka my career in medicine. I did not work outside of that. As far as exam goes...

Each indivdual exam covers about half of a major textbook's material or all of a textbooks material. I think some of them covers about 3 month worth of lectures, with each lecture having between 40-150 ppt slides. But that doesn't matter

What matters are the board exam scores, which you have to pass and do well in for any of the specialty you mentioned. I am a radiology resident. We had 1300+ MD plus DO applying for 1200 or so spots this year so it's competitive. I would not choose a specialty now however as things and interest do change. You heard about radiology becoming less competitive but it's bad up again.

Onto the board exam. For step 1 I've essentially wrote my own textbook by preparing over 4000 flash cards. I believe a significant portion of medical students do similiar things. I did very well in that exam but then again I was 99% on MCAT also. Some of this stuff may be natural aptitude for multiple choices also. Point is, step 1 cover everything on basic science.

Step 2ck covers everything clinical based and 2cs covers clinical knowledge. It's generally difficult to describe the course work load to someone who haven't done it. I would say the effort required is probably at least 4x college. Almost every physician I ran into went to a top 10 undergrad so keep in mind that's the comparison scale.

When you first become a resident, you will work about 80 hours or more a week. Most of the time you are handling patient care, sometimes you are cleaning up **** or bile. Other times you are wheeling people around. You put your head down and do what's necessary for the job.

The actual radiology residency isn't too bad, if it isn't for that fact that you need to have indepth knowledge of both cliniclal medicine, radiology aka what thousands of diseases look like on 20 different imaging modualities, as well as medical physicis so you can past your boards.

Folks typically spend about 1-4 hours per day to study besides work. There are other things like research which I enjoy and do.

And when we graduate, unless you do primary care (which pays below 200k) usually, you cannot really chose where you practice that much. Ending back to a specific city is difficult. (I've been told that going to Johns Hopkins or Harvard for next stage of trainingwill maximumize my chance of going to a particular midwest city since my wife is now there, think columbus, OH and the like because the job market is good but not good enough to pin point the city). I don't know if you are willing to hustle for things like that but to get those big name you have to hustle pretty hard, probably a bit more than finding a spot at Walgreen for pharmacy internship but then again I haven't been in a pharmacist shoes so I don't know.

So in summary grass is not as green as you think. I envy my friends everyday who are able to spend time in NYC (born and raised there, but had to leave town for med school). I am sure you can understand what is it like to be forced to leave your home town.

Other sacrifices, like not having a single shared day off with my wife who is also in medicine, or having to spend the few hours we have together both studying because of boards, etc.

We don't mind those sacrifices, as you do it anyway to achieve your goal, at least in my case.

Medicine isn't like law or business. Achieving success is relatively easier. You just have to do the same thing, work, study, and do well, consistently year after year. Each time you fail you end up having a big mark against you. Each time you fail a door closes. Hell, some door slamed on me just because I had to leave NYC to go to the "Podunk" that is midwest, which I don't think so but certain people in charge of recruitment do.

The reason I asked about how much content is covered on each exam in medical school is because I was just curious to compare it to the tests I've had so far in pharmacy school. Most of the tests in the science-based classes have covered anywhere from 400-600 PPT slides per test. Even though medical school is much harder, I think it's also a much more worthwhile investment of time, effort, and money.

Also, on the topic you brought up regarding primary care doctors usually earning <$200k, that is one of the reasons I'm still planning on re-applying to AA programs; in fact, the appeal of earning a primary care doc's salary for just over 2 years of graduate school as compared to 7+ was one of the reasons I decided to become an AA in the first place. There are actually news articles that were published a few years ago that discuss how the average salary for CRNAs/AAs is as high (or, in some cases, higher) than the average salary for primary care docs. Ironically enough, my area of the southeast is undesirable enough that for the last year or so, there have pretty much always been at least 1-2 job openings for radiologists. It's the same case for CRNAs/AAs. The only healthcare profession whose job market is totally saturated in the southeast is pharmacy, ironically enough. The primary reservation I have about going to medical school is if I end up as a primary care doc because I'm not competitive enough to get accepted to any specialty residencies like radiology or PM&R. I would honestly rather go back to AA school and earn the income of a primary care doc doing AA work rather than by working as a primary care doc.

 

[BidingMyTime]

As someone else posted, we are 2 months and 11 pages in. Not to mention the 2 previous years of threads from PAtoPharm.

I try not to divulge too much of my personal life here, but I have to say PAtoPharm, you remind me sooooo much of my, um parent. My parent who has has always 2nd guessed, 3rd guessed, 4th guessed, etc. every decision ever made, who has never been happy, never been free of worry or 2nd guessing, and who tried to raise me to be the same. Unlike my parent, I did get counseling and read a lot of self-help books, and I learned to make the best of every choice I make, even when it leads to unexpected consequences. My life isn't perfect (nor is anyones), but I am very satisfied and content with the choices I've made....and when I do make a choice that has unsettling consequences, I take reasonable steps to adjust and work with those consequences. I *NEVER* 2nd guess my choices, even if I later learn they are not the best choices, because I 1) don't want to end up pathetically & eternally unhappy as my parent has, and 2) I realize any choice I made, was THE best choice I could make with the limited knowledge I had at the time I made it.

I can't say this enough, PAtoPharm....please talk to a counselor/psychologist/psychiatrist, even a pastor/priest/religious leader. You clearly aren't happy, and I don't think you will ever be happy with any choice you make, until you learn to have reasonable expectations, self-esteem, and problem coping techniques. Please talk to someone, you have very little to lose (at most a bit of money and time) and ALOT to gain (a vibrant, contented life.)

I will also add that your being certain that you don't ever want a SO or children also reminds me of myself. When one feels uncertain about their own life and choices, then there is no energy left over for a SO or children. I also felt certain I never wanted a SO or children, but once I learned how to cope with life, I had the energy and love to share with a SO and children. And I now realize how much fuller and vibrant my life is because of my SO and children. I'm not saying you (or anyone) needs to have a SO or children, I'm saying that when you aren't content and happy in your own life, you are going to shut out all kinds of relationships and other avenues that could bring fullness and vibrancy to your life.

Just talk to someone, someone trained. You can be happy, you can live life without 2nd guessing your decisions, trust me you really can. Talk to someone and give it a chance. After that, you won't have to post for 2 months on boards wondering what you should do, you will know the right choice to make for yourself, and you will know how to work with any unexpected consequences of that choice.

Just do it.

 

[PAtoPharm]

If I were in your shoes, I'd stay and graduate. Just adjust your expectations and learn to be realistic. I'd stay bc there are viable paths and opportunities to be successful, includes independent pharmacy, LTC, transitioning to grocery store chains etc. I will be honest with you, pharmacy is a blue collar profession for the most part, not a cerebral one. I wouldn't count myself out and say I can't do CVS. It may take some time to get where you want to be, good chance that you will have a very humble beginning. I started out part time after working like a maniac intern and busting my ass for 4 yrs. I am a glass half empty and a pessimist when it comes to pharmacy, but I still believe that it's possible to have a good life being a pharmacist today.

Unfortunately, I just don't think there is much of a future in this field. Considering the length and cost of education, it's just not a worthwhile investment. If I'm going to put all this effort into entering a field where I'll have to start out working in BFE, then it's going to because I want to go there for the better pay and benefits package, not because it's the only job I can find. Take this AA job in Rome, GA (a BFE town) as an example:

http://www.gaswork.com/post/213083

Not only is the position offering a base salary of $150k, but they're also offering a base pay rate of $240 + $100/hr to take call on the weekends. Imagine if someone took that job and scheduled themselves to take call one evening per week... they could easily add $40k-$50k to their yearly income. Even if they choose not to work any call shifts whatsoever, they're still making at least $150k/year in addition to getting 5 weeks of PTO and a good benefits package. That's $30-$50k more per year than most pharmacists make, plus more time off and a more lucrative raise schedule (as compared to the 1.5-2% annual raises most pharmacists get). I mean, for 40 hr workweek, that's a better deal than most FP/IM docs are offered out of residency. And even if someone wants to make similar money in non-BFE, there are job openings like this:

http://www.gaswork.com/post/205514

When you consider that I'd be graduating about a year earlier from AA school (even on a re-attempt basis) and would have the opportunity to earn a substantially better income package a year earlier, it becomes a no-brainer.

 

[steveysmith54]

Unfortunately, I just don't think there is much of a future in this field. Considering the length and cost of education, it's just not a worthwhile investment. If I'm going to put all this effort into entering a field where I'll have to start out working in BFE, then it's going to because I want to go there for the better pay and benefits package, not because it's the only job I can find. Take this AA job in Rome, GA (a BFE town) as an example:

http://www.gaswork.com/post/213083

Not only is the position offering a base salary of $150k, but they're also offering a base pay rate of $240 + $100/hr to take call on the weekends. Imagine if someone took that job and scheduled themselves to take call one evening per week... they could easily add $40k-$50k to their yearly income. Even if they choose not to work any call shifts whatsoever, they're still making at least $150k/year in addition to getting 5 weeks of PTO and a good benefits package. That's $30-$50k more per year than most pharmacists make, plus more time off and a more lucrative raise schedule (as compared to the 1.5-2% annual raises most pharmacists get). I mean, for 40 hr workweek, that's a better deal than most FP/IM docs are offered out of residency. And even if someone wants to make similar money in non-BFE, there are job openings like this:

http://www.gaswork.com/post/205514

When you consider that I'd be graduating about a year earlier from AA school (even on a re-attempt basis) and would have the opportunity to earn a substantially better income package a year earlier, it becomes a no-brainer.

There is no argument that PA/AA profession is much much more rewarding financially... I believe you times 1000000. Problem is you getting into one with your academic history. I am not trying tome mean or hater, it's just what it is. If you don't get into one, you've given up a potentially good financial life being an RPh. We can't predict what kind of a job that you can get upon graduation, I've seen strange things happen (in a good way).

 

[PAtoPharm]

As someone else posted, we are 2 months and 11 pages in. Not to mention the 2 previous years of threads from PAtoPharm.

I try not to divulge too much of my personal life here, but I have to say PAtoPharm, you remind me sooooo much of my, um parent. My parent who has has always 2nd guessed, 3rd guessed, 4th guessed, etc. every decision ever made, who has never been happy, never been free of worry or 2nd guessing, and who tried to raise me to be the same. Unlike my parent, I did get counseling and read a lot of self-help books, and I learned to make the best of every choice I make, even when it leads to unexpected consequences. My life isn't perfect (nor is anyones), but I am very satisfied and content with the choices I've made....and when I do make a choice that has unsettling consequences, I take reasonable steps to adjust and work with those consequences. I *NEVER* 2nd guess my choices, even if I later learn they are not the best choices, because I 1) don't want to end up pathetically & eternally unhappy as my parent has, and 2) I realize any choice I made, was THE best choice I could make with the limited knowledge I had at the time I made it.

I can't say this enough, PAtoPharm....please talk to a counselor/psychologist/psychiatrist, even a pastor/priest/religious leader. You clearly aren't happy, and I don't think you will ever be happy with any choice you make, until you learn to have reasonable expectations, self-esteem, and problem coping techniques. Please talk to someone, you have very little to lose (at most a bit of money and time) and ALOT to gain (a vibrant, contented life.)

I will also add that your being certain that you don't ever want a SO or children also reminds me of myself. When one feels uncertain about their own life and choices, then there is no energy left over for a SO or children. I also felt certain I never wanted a SO or children, but once I learned how to cope with life, I had the energy and love to share with a SO and children. And I now realize how much fuller and vibrant my life is because of my SO and children. I'm not saying you (or anyone) needs to have a SO or children, I'm saying that when you aren't content and happy in your own life, you are going to shut out all kinds of relationships and other avenues that could bring fullness and vibrancy to your life.

Just talk to someone, someone trained. You can be happy, you can live life without 2nd guessing your decisions, trust me you really can. Talk to someone and give it a chance. After that, you won't have to post for 2 months on boards wondering what you should do, you will know the right choice to make for yourself, and you will know how to work with any unexpected consequences of that choice.

Just do it.

When a career pathway like pharmacy school has become such an objectively bad idea, psychiatry has nothing to do with it. What if someone was truly passionate about sculpting or art history? Art-related degrees have historically been known as the worst investments someone can make in a college education (if someone's goal is to actually have a career), so even if someone was really motivated to get a degree in one of those fields, it would still be an objectively bad idea, even if they really wanted to study the subject matter. At least if I go to AA school or medical school (I would list dental school as another example, but the increased interest in the field among applicants combined with the ADA's commitment to actually protecting practicing dentists' interests would make it impossible for me to get accepted), I can earn enough money to actually pay off my loans instead of spending 20 yrs paying on an IBR/REPAYE plan, and I would also be able to save up enough money to have a comfortable retirement and not have to worry about much else. The future of pharmacy is so bleak (like I said, just crunch the numbers) that someone's psychiatric status has nothing to do with it. In fact, it would probably indicate mental stability if someone DIDN'T consider alternative careers at this point.

 

[PAtoPharm]

There is no argument that PA/AA profession is much much more rewarding financially... I believe you times 1000000. Problem is you getting into one with your academic history. I am not trying tome mean or hater, it's just what it is. If you don't get into one, you've given up a potentially good financial life being an RPh. We can't predict what kind of a job that you can get upon graduation, I've seen strange things happen (in a good way).

The one potential upside I have working in my favor is that lots of AA schools (at least compared to the number of programs that existed for the last few decades) have opened up over the last few years, and it seems like at least a few of them are having a hard time attracting applicants. Someone even made a post in this thread about how one program even extended their application deadline recently. Keep in mind that AAs can't practice in states like CA and NY or NJ, so that artificially reduces the size of the applicant pool. Now the question comes down to, would an AA be willing to take a chance on an applicant like myself for the sake of filling their class (or even just to have a substantial waitlist)... or would they rather leave a spot in their class vacant than consider filling it with someone with my history?

 

[yungnaira]

I really tried to read this entire thread, but after 2 pages I realized there was 9 more. NAH I'll pass

I'll just assume this thread has been a "woe is me and my life choices thus far" For me I never was really interested in the career prospects that pharmacy will afford. I didnt/(still dont) believe the hype of residency or mundane retail hours (no offense to those who enjoy it).

What I will say is that pharmacy does provide you a means to an end, now what that end is, is different for everyone. Some folks end after 4th year, graduate and make great money working retail. Some pursue other post-graduate opportunities, some go back to school, some open up their own business, etc.. It all really depends. The talk of saturation, is well, to be taken with perspective. These are the same folks that are getting pushed out of their positions for lower paid, hungry new grads. Whether they want to admit it or not, its happening or will happen soon.

SO, where does that leave ppl like us OP? Make a damn decision and stick with it bro. I graduate in May, yes I am worried about finding a great job. You can throw numbers around all you want. At the end of the day, you have been trolling on SDN complaining for years. It takes a sizable amount of gumption to confront your fears. It looks like you aren't ready to grow up. The only reason this thread is as long as it is, is because nobody has said what you want to hear. Maybe you have a problem identifying the real problem

 

[PAtoPharm]

I really tried to read this entire thread, but after 2 pages I realized there was 9 more. NAH I'll pass

I'll just assume this thread has been a "woe is me and my life choices thus far" For me I never was really interested in the career prospects that pharmacy will afford. I didnt/(still dont) believe the hype of residency or mundane retail hours (no offense to those who enjoy it).

What I will say is that pharmacy does provide you a means to an end, now what that end is, is different for everyone. Some folks end after 4th year, graduate and make great money working retail. Some pursue other post-graduate opportunities, some go back to school, some open up their own business, etc.. It all really depends. The talk of saturation, is well, to be taken with perspective. These are the same folks that are getting pushed out of their positions for lower paid, hungry new grads. Whether they want to admit it or not, its happening or will happen soon.

SO, where does that leave ppl like us OP? Make a damn decision and stick with it bro. I graduate in May, yes I am worried about finding a great job. You can throw numbers around all you want. At the end of the day, you have been trolling on SDN complaining for years. It takes a sizable amount of gumption to confront your fears. It looks like you aren't ready to grow up. The only reason this thread is as long as it is, is because nobody has said what you want to hear. Maybe you have a problem identifying the real problem

Yeah, of course "the real problem" is just me and my attitude. Everyone else knows that people who are willing to do what it takes to out-compete their classmates won't have to worry about finding a job, because of course the hardest workers and the best networkers in any profession will always have a job. The numbers I'm "throwing around" are just numbers, and they might as well have been made up by me. So tell me, what would someone who has "grown up" do? Suck it up, finish pharmacy school, and just deal with whatever cards they're dealt at that point? How about this -- I will let you and all the others who are confident they make pharmacy work put your money where your mouth is, and I'll pass on all of it and pursue something that will see me graduating at least a year earlier into a job market that will afford me the opportunity to work wherever I want (as opposed to one of a select few locations in the BFE midwest) and for a much higher salary than any pharmacist in the country earns.

 

[BidingMyTime]

When a career pathway like pharmacy school has become such an objectively bad idea, psychiatry has nothing to do with it. What if someone was truly passionate about sculpting or art history? Art-related degrees have historically been known as the worst investments someone can make in a college education (if someone's goal is to actually have a career), so even if someone was really motivated to get a degree in one of those fields, it would still be an objectively bad idea, even if they really wanted to study the subject matter.

What is worse is picking a career choice solely based on the salary you expect to make. What reasonable people do is look at their interests and aptitudes, THEN look at possible career choices, considering salary and other things. You have never indicated that you have any interest in pharmacy, AA/PA, NP, MD/DO, or dentist, or that you had any aptitude in the subjects that must be mastered in order to obtain those degrees (in spite of your supposedly high grades in AA school, reality is you ended up flunking out of it and you are now getting mediocre grades in your 1st year of pharmacy school.) In fact, quite the opposite, you have expressed disinterest in the job requirements of pharmacy, AA/PA, NP, MD/DO.

You will never succeed picking a job solely based on what you think will make you the most money. The passionate artist who got a relatively low-cost art degree from a public institution and works as a cashier at Wal*Mart while teaching weekly art classes at the local library has indeed made a better choice than you are making, because that person is likely content and happy in their life, and that is something that money can't buy.

 

[PAtoPharm]

What is worse is picking a career choice solely based on the salary you expect to make. What reasonable people do is look at their interests and aptitudes, THEN look at possible career choices, considering salary and other things. You have never indicated that you have any interest in pharmacy, AA/PA, NP, MD/DO, or dentist, or that you had any aptitude in the subjects that must be mastered in order to obtain those degrees (in spite of your supposedly high grades in AA school, reality is you ended up flunking out of it and you are now getting mediocre grades in your 1st year of pharmacy school.) In fact, quite the opposite, you have expressed disinterest in the job requirements of pharmacy, AA/PA, NP, MD/DO.

You will never succeed picking a job solely based on what you think will make you the most money. The passionate artist who got a relatively low-cost art degree from a public institution and works as a cashier at Wal*Mart while teaching weekly art classes at the local library has indeed made a better choice than you are making, because that person is likely content and happy in their life, and that is something that money can't buy.

I'm earning mediocre grades in pharmacy school? Not sure where you're getting that from; I don't want to be too specific, but my first semester GPA was between a 3.6 - 4.0 (closer to the higher end of that scale), and the lowest grade I have in any of my classes I'm taking currently is a high B. You must have conflated the statements I made on here a few weeks ago about losing the motivation to do well with me saying that I'm actually doing poorly (that isn't the case... yet).

I'm not the kind of person who develops a significant interest in any one pursuit and decides to make a career out of it. I have always been a pragmatic person who approaches careers on the basis of choosing something that will give me what I want in life while also providing work of a tolerable nature, or that is at least not flat-out unenjoyable. Going into a field with a very low earning potential would not satisfy me. Neither would pursuing a profession with a job market that will be completely and utterly saturated in entire regions of the country.

 

[Dalteparin]

I'm not the kind of person who develops a significant interest in any one pursuit and decides to make a career out of it.

Finally, you posted something I agree with.

You were warned multiple times about the job market. You were warned multiple times about what pharmacy is really like. You were warned multiple times that you should get a pharmacy tech job before school so that you could have a better idea of whether this is a good fit. You were warned multiple times that while you may be a smart person who can breeze through the academic work, you seem to struggle with making decisions in high stress situations (a crucial skill for a pharmacist) and that you probably needed counseling to help you deal with this issue. You chose to ignore the many warnings and pursue pharmacy anyway, and now you've spent the last two months whining that it isn't what you expected and you're unhappy and want to drop out. Pharmacy is not what you expected because your expectations were completely wrong. We tried to tell you this many times before you applied and again during the summer before school started and you did not listen. You have no one but yourself to blame for the situation you are in, and nobody but you can get you out of it.

Going into a field with a very low earning potential would not satisfy me. Neither would pursuing a profession with a job market that will be completely and utterly saturated in entire regions of the country.

So drop out. Pharmacy sucks and you hate it, we get it. You don't want to be in pharmacy school anymore, fine, stop wasting everyone's time (including your own).

I urge you to go back and re-read BidingMyTime's post from yesterday because, with respect, you appear to have missed the point. Every time you choose a career, a year or two later you panic, bail out, and start over in a new field. That's not what healthy, well-functioning adults do. Talk to somebody - a psychiatrist, a career counselor, a religious leader if that's what floats your boat - and for the love of heaven, take some time away from school before you apply to any more professional schools. Work, volunteer, figure out what your talents are and find a way to make money with them. Otherwise you'll be in this same position two years from now when your next professional school (whatever it turns out to be) doesn't meet your expectations and you're thinking of jumping ship and changing career paths yet again.

 

[PharmtoCS]

Otherwise you'll be in this same position two years from now when your next professional school (whatever it turns out to be) doesn't meet your expectations and you're thinking of jumping ship and changing career paths yet again.

You left out the part which he will come back and start another long-winded blog thread after he decides again that his next profession that he chose isn't for him.

 

[gwarm01]

Yeah, of course "the real problem" is just me and my attitude. Everyone else knows that people who are willing to do what it takes to out-compete their classmates won't have to worry about finding a job, because of course the hardest workers and the best networkers in any profession will always have a job. The numbers I'm "throwing around" are just numbers, and they might as well have been made up by me.

Dude. Everyone here is aware of the saturation. We have had a doom and gloom thread stickied since May 26th, 2005. There's maybe two or three people who keep telling you to stay in pharmacy school and I'm not enitrely sure if its because they are trolling you or just don't think you'll be able to get into these other programs. Just stop engaging with those guys and let it go.

 

[yungnaira]

If anything, this thread should be saved to serve as a warning to those who think jumping ship after a few hard classes is worth it in the long run regardless of profession. At the end of the day you have wasted a considerable amount of time doing absolutely nothing.

But at this point, I think he is trolling us. Clearly, several of the seasoned and us new pharmacists have said the same thing repeatedly.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Finally, you posted something I agree with.

You were warned multiple times about the job market. You were warned multiple times about what pharmacy is really like. You were warned multiple times that you should get a pharmacy tech job before school so that you could have a better idea of whether this is a good fit. You were warned multiple times that while you may be a smart person who can breeze through the academic work, you seem to struggle with making decisions in high stress situations (a crucial skill for a pharmacist) and that you probably needed counseling to help you deal with this issue. You chose to ignore the many warnings and pursue pharmacy anyway, and now you've spent the last two months whining that it isn't what you expected and you're unhappy and want to drop out. Pharmacy is not what you expected because your expectations were completely wrong. We tried to tell you this many times before you applied and again during the summer before school started and you did not listen. You have no one but yourself to blame for the situation you are in, and nobody but you can get you out of it.



So drop out. Pharmacy sucks and you hate it, we get it. You don't want to be in pharmacy school anymore, fine, stop wasting everyone's time (including your own).

I urge you to go back and re-read BidingMyTime's post from yesterday because, with respect, you appear to have missed the point. Every time you choose a career, a year or two later you panic, bail out, and start over in a new field. That's not what healthy, well-functioning adults do. Talk to somebody - a psychiatrist, a career counselor, a religious leader if that's what floats your boat - and for the love of heaven, take some time away from school before you apply to any more professional schools. Work, volunteer, figure out what your talents are and find a way to make money with them. Otherwise you'll be in this same position two years from now when your next professional school (whatever it turns out to be) doesn't meet your expectations and you're thinking of jumping ship and changing career paths yet again.

A couple things here... I'm not sure if you're just referring to the job market with your statements you made in your first paragraph about how pharmacy isn't what I thought it would be, but the only thing I'm disillusioned with is the job market issue. Granted, they may develop later, but as of now, I don't have any problems that I know of with actual pharmacy-related subject matter or practice. I wouldn't say it's enjoyable, but I guess it fits the "tolerability" requirement I mentioned above (for now)? That goes back to what I said before about not being the kind of person who enjoys doing any one particular job or activity enough to want to pursue a career specifically in that field. That is why I said before that I was originally open to considering all potential graduate health careers -- DO, dental, AA, pharmacy, etc. As long as I don't absolutely hate something and it offers the pay/lifestyle I'm looking for, I'm willing to consider it as a career. So that's why I said I wasn't sure what you meant when you said that I seem to not like pharmacy because it doesn't meet my expectations; if you are referring to my disdain over the job market issues that have finally reached my area, then you are absolutely right. Otherwise, I'm not really sure what you are referring to. I don't think I've mentioned anything on here about not liking the material or whatever.

It simply comes down to this: the job market issue is a deal-breaker for me, and it would be when it comes to pursuing any sort of graduate degree. I'm not in pharmacy school (or AA, or DO, or dental, or accounting, or any other program) because I simply enjoy learning the material and want to get a degree in it. My only reason for being in pharmacy school (or any of the other professional programs I mentioned) is to have a relatively good-paying career that I don't have to move to BFE to get, so if someone's reasons for choosing a particular career are that singular and narrow-minded, then either a particular career will satisfy that criteria or it's a bad choice for that person.

The one upside to the time I've wasted in pharmacy school is that I now have a renewed, positive perspective on the AA profession/school and am ready to get started again with any program that will accept me and focus on practicing the lab routines on a daily basis. BTW, I'm not sure if I mentioned this on here before, but when I first got kicked out of AA school for failing the lab, I had to have a "hearing" before some sort of faculty committee. During the hearing, a couple faculty members talk to you about where/why you screwed up and ask what you'd do differently if they let you came back. A day or so after the meeting, they emailed me and said the committee decided to allow me to return to re-matriculate with the next class if I wanted. I believe I posted on here before about how I had the opportunity to return to AA school with the immediate next class, but I don't think I mentioned that this was considered to be a privilege and not some policy applied by default to every student who fails out, so I just wanted to mention this as an indication that even the AA program faculty thought I could pass the lab classes if I put in more effort. Of course, my mistake was not taking their "no questions asked" offer to return to the program, and now I'd have to re-apply as a totally new applicant.

If the pharmacy job market wasn't on the verge of being disastrously oversaturated (with a likely dramatic decrease in salary as well), I probably wouldn't be looking at quitting school. Think about it like this -- if I was in AA school, doing well, but the AA/CRNA job market was in the same shape as pharmacy's, I would probably be looking to leave that field as well. I get that I shouldn't have started pharmacy school in the first place and that it's my fault I'm in this situation, but it still doesn't mean someone should be obligated to staying on such an obviously dead-end pathway.

It's like if a girl has been married and divorced 4 times, and when she tells her family that she is about to marry husband #5, her family members tell her to be SURE this time that she is marrying the right person because she really can't afford to get married and then divorced again. So she gets married, and 4 months into the marriage, it turns out that the husband is an alcoholic wife-beater with a gambling addiction. So even though it might look bad to everyone around her to get divorced a 5th time, wouldn't it still be (objectively speaking) the best decision for her to get divorced, regardless of whether it is her 1st or 5th marriage?

 

[DrfluffyMD]

You seem to have a good idea on what to do. Go ahead and execute.

 

[TheBlaah]

A day or so after the meeting, they emailed me and said the committee decided to allow me to return to re-matriculate with the next class if I wanted. I believe I posted on here before about how I had the opportunity to return to AA school with the immediate next class, but I don't think I mentioned that this was considered to be a privilege and not some policy applied by default to every student who fails out, so I just wanted to mention this as an indication that even the AA program faculty thought I could pass the lab classes if I put in more effort. Of course, my mistake was not taking their "no questions asked" offer to return to the program, and now I'd have to re-apply as a totally new applicant.

...What? Ugh. I'm going to guess you rejected their offer because of the same reason you're quitting pharmacy school now: you thought there were greener pastures.

Don't even try to call yourself a pragmatist. A pragmatist would have had a job by now. I won't argue with you whether or not switching to PA will be the better decision.

 

[Dalteparin]

A couple things here... I'm not sure if you're just referring to the job market with your statements you made in your first paragraph about how pharmacy isn't what I thought it would be, but the only thing I'm disillusioned with is the job market issue. Granted, they may develop later, but as of now, I don't have any problems that I know of with actual pharmacy-related subject matter or practice. I wouldn't say it's enjoyable, but I guess it fits the "tolerability" requirement I mentioned above (for now)? That goes back to what I said before about not being the kind of person who enjoys doing any one particular job or activity enough to want to pursue a career specifically in that field. That is why I said before that I was originally open to considering all potential graduate health careers -- DO, dental, AA, pharmacy, etc. As long as I don't absolutely hate something and it offers the pay/lifestyle I'm looking for, I'm willing to consider it as a career. So that's why I said I wasn't sure what you meant when you said that I seem to not like pharmacy because it doesn't meet my expectations; if you are referring to my disdain over the job market issues that have finally reached my area, then you are absolutely right. Otherwise, I'm not really sure what you are referring to. I don't think I've mentioned anything on here about not liking the material or whatever.

Yes, the job market is mainly what I was referring to. That issue has been discussed ad nauseam in these forums - for over ten years, as @gwarm01 pointed out! You were told our job market sucks in your threads. You also could have read the numerous discussions about it, or any number of threads where current pharmacists tell pre-pharmers to turn back while they still can. You ignored our advice and said you'd be fine since you live in an undesirable area.

However, you've also mentioned that you struggle with decision-making, especially in high-stress, high-acuity situations. In fact, you told us that this is one of the reasons you failed out of PA school. You seem to think that you would not have to deal with this stuff in pharmacy, and we've told you many times that yes, you definitely would, regardless of what setting you choose to practice in. It's a moot point now, of course, but if you did stay in pharmacy school long enough to go to an APPE or even an IPPE, your ideas about pharmacy being a calm job would be shattered right away.

I get that I shouldn't have started pharmacy school in the first place and that it's my fault I'm in this situation, but it still doesn't mean someone should be obligated to staying on such an obviously dead-end pathway.

I did not say that you were obligated to stay on. In fact, I said the opposite: If you don't want to do pharmacy, drop out. You don't need to give me another wall of text with your reasons why; it's really none of my business anyway. I do think it would be wise for you to get counseling, get work experience, and volunteer experience in the field before you plunge into another professional school, but I suspect this is yet another piece of advice you'll ignore.

 

[wagrxm2000]

He has clearly stated he's in it for the money. He will never enjoy being a pharmacist if that's the sole reason. You have to be in it for the patient interaction or you will hate your job.

Now's the time to get out and also move over to a different forum.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Yes, the job market is mainly what I was referring to. That issue has been discussed ad nauseam in these forums - for over ten years, as @gwarm01 pointed out! You were told our job market sucks in your threads. You also could have read the numerous discussions about it, or any number of threads where current pharmacists tell pre-pharmers to turn back while they still can. You ignored our advice and said you'd be fine since you live in an undesirable area.

However, you've also mentioned that you struggle with decision-making, especially in high-stress, high-acuity situations. In fact, you told us that this is one of the reasons you failed out of PA school. You seem to think that you would not have to deal with this stuff in pharmacy, and we've told you many times that yes, you definitely would, regardless of what setting you choose to practice in. It's a moot point now, of course, but if you did stay in pharmacy school long enough to go to an APPE or even an IPPE, your ideas about pharmacy being a calm job would be shattered right away.



I did not say that you were obligated to stay on. In fact, I said the opposite: If you don't want to do pharmacy, drop out. You don't need to give me another wall of text with your reasons why; it's really none of my business anyway. I do think it would be wise for you to get counseling, get work experience, and volunteer experience in the field before you plunge into another professional school, but I suspect this is yet another piece of advice you'll ignore.

Yes, I regret ignoring everyone's advice to give more consideration to the job market situation. I guess I just figured that since my area has always been safe in every other healthcare profession's oversupply scenario (e.g., anesthesia, physical therapy, etc.), then of course the pharmacy job market here would never get saturated. At the time I applied to pharmacy school, I told myself that talk of job market saturation in the anesthesia field had been going on for 6-7 years, and yet the anesthesia groups in my area are still hiring and even offering sign-on bonuses, so I figured that pharmacy would be yet another example of a healthcare career that will become saturated everywhere but my region of the country. Obviously, I made a bad call with that presumption and now I'm paying for it (literally).

Ironically enough, the problem with me getting work experience prior to starting PA/AA school is that, given my current living situation, once I lose the "momentum" of being in graduate professional school, it will be harder for me to ever get back started as a student in one. It's hard to explain, but since I still live with my family and have managed to reach an unusually advanced age without ever accomplishing anything career-wise, I'm basically still treated by my family as a pre-teen who is obligated to take their life advice, and they already think I'm just not one of those people who is meant to be a high income earner in general. In addition, one side of my family is made up of liberal Democrats who think it's practically morally/ethically wrong to spend lots of time in school to pursue a career, and that people should instead just get whatever damn job they can find, even if it doesn't pay the money they're looking to make. If I say, "... but that kind of career often tops out at paying $15 or $16 an hour," they give me the "and what's wrong with that?" look that most reasonable-minded people would give to someone who says "but that career only pays $500k." They also usually choose to interpret me saying that as a crack against hard-working lower income people and so they shake their heads, tell me I have a bad attitude, etc.

Even though my own immediately family doesn't have that mindset, they still think that me obtaining a career by pursuing higher education has become a "boy who cried wolf" situation, so if I quit pharmacy school and simply start working some dead-end job, it will be much more disruptive (if that's the word for it) to go back to professional school yet again in 6-8 months. I know that in the end, it's 100% my decision anyways, but it's still a somewhat complicated situation to be in when you still live with your family and most of them think that it's stupid even for someone who is smart, motivated, and capable to spend 9+ years in school/residency after college to become (for example) an orthopedic surgeon, even if they're highly likely to succeed with it.

 

[steveysmith54]

so,sounds like you're on track not to drop out, nor do anything to gain experience as an intern... instead make excuses... oh well. Hope that new students will understand that it's imperative to actually:

1. experience what pharmacy is prior to applying
2. Be capable and willing to work at CVS in undesirable location and terrible working conditions
3. Understand that pharmacy is no longer a guaranteed 6 figure pay check.
4. Realize that saturation is real and will get much much worse in the next couple of yrs.

To all a good night

 

[PAtoPharm]

so,sounds like you're on track not to drop out, nor do anything to gain experience as an intern... instead make excuses... oh well. Hope that new students will understand that it's imperative to actually:

1. experience what pharmacy is prior to applying
2. Be capable and willing to work at CVS in undesirable location and terrible working conditions
3. Understand that pharmacy is no longer a guaranteed 6 figure pay check.
4. Realize that saturation is real and will get much much worse in the next couple of yrs.

To all a good night

Good points on #'s 1-4, but where did you get that I'm not on track to drop out? Did you miss the part about me applying to AA schools, PA schools, and the DO post-bac programs? In the post I made prior to this one, I meant that it would make things more difficult for me in the context of dealing with my family if I just dropped out of pharmacy school without at least being on track to getting accepted to AA, PA, DO, or whatever school.

 

[Z-Qualizer]

Good points on #'s 1-4, but where did you get that I'm not on track to drop out? Did you miss the part about me applying to AA schools, PA schools, and the DO post-bac programs? In the post I made prior to this one, I meant that it would make things more difficult for me in the context of dealing with my family if I just dropped out of pharmacy school without at least being on track to getting accepted to AA, PA, DO, or whatever school.

So what are you doing to prepare to apply... besides researching the job market? Will you be registering for CASAA, CASPA (April), or AACOMAS (May) when they open? Will you be registering for the GRE or MCAT soon? Are you going to shadow a PA or DO? Do you have good LOR's?

 

[BidingMyTime]

It's like if a girl has been married and divorced 4 times, and when she tells her family that she is about to marry husband #5, her family members tell her to be SURE this time that she is marrying the right person because she really can't afford to get married and then divorced again. So she gets married, and 4 months into the marriage, it turns out that the husband is an alcoholic wife-beater with a gambling addiction. So even though it might look bad to everyone around her to get divorced a 5th time, wouldn't it still be (objectively speaking) the best decision for her to get divorced, regardless of whether it is her 1st or 5th marriage?

If a gal has been married 5 times and is on the verge of divorce, the problem is with HER. Absolutely with her. Regardless of how horrible her partners are, there is a psychological reason why SHE is repeatedly picking back partners, and divorcing one bad partner and moving on to the next bad partner won't change anything in HER life. SHE needs to get counseling so SHE can make better choices. PERIOD. This is YOU! Regardless of how wrong pharmacy is for you, "divorcing" pharmacy and moving on to the next bad career choice won't change anything in your life, YOU need to get counseling to figure out how YOU can make better career choices for YOU!

It's hard to explain, but since I still live with my family and have managed to reach an unusually advanced age without ever accomplishing anything career-wise, I'm basically still treated by my family as a pre-teen who is obligated to take their life advice, and they already think I'm just not one of those people who is meant to be a high income earner in general.

I cut a lot of your post for brevity, but THIS explains a lot of your situation. The situation may be hard to explain, but I do understand where you are coming from here, even if your specifics are different than the family I grew up with. I totally understand the family dynamics that refuse to recognize an adult child as an adult. Again, all I can do is STRONGLY recommend you get counseling of some type...and that you TRUELY listen to your counselor. I switched counselors more than once because I didn't want to believe my biological family was as dysfunctional as it really was. I thought the counselor just couldn't possibly understand my particular situation.....I'm sure you are now thinking the same. But thankfully, I did eventually realize my counselors were being truthful with me, and that my biological family was completely dysfunctional. I slowly learned to set healthy boundaries, which is what you need also need to learn to set. I heard this kind of sentiment many times in my younger days, and completely disregarded it as irrelevant to my life, but there was thankfully a breaking point where I realized the truth everyone outside of my immediate family was telling me, and I realized the changes (which weren't easy) that I had to make. I was in my early 30's, I could beat myself up for not accepting counseling/changing my life sooner, but I am very thankful that if I have an average lifespan of ~80yrs, then the majority of my life will have been spent living psychologically healthy.

You are a smart guy, you can intellectually decide to make the right choice of seeking counseling, now. You have a lot of life left to enjoy, don't waste it in whatever unhealthiness your parents/environment have taught you.

 

[PAtoPharm]

So what are you doing to prepare to apply... besides researching the job market? Will you be registering for CASAA, CASPA (April), or AACOMAS (May) when they open? Will you be registering for the GRE or MCAT soon? Are you going to shadow a PA or DO? Do you have good LOR's?

I will be registering for both CASAA and CASPA, although I won't be registering for AACOMAS at first since I will initially apply for the DO post-bac programs over the next couple weeks prior to that. I don't know if it would even be worth it to apply to DO programs the traditional way via AACOMAS with my academic record at this point.

For LORs, I will be getting one of the AAs I shadowed previously to provide me with an LOR for AA school and a PA I know to give an LOR for PA school. I will shadow a DO and get a letter from them if I end up applying the traditional way. For a second LOR to submit to all programs, I will probably get a letter from one of my basic science professors I had in AA school. These professors aren't actually AA program faculty; they teach the same anatomy, physiology, microbiology, etc. courses to AA, PA, and MD students, so I would basically be applying with an LOR from a medical school professor whose medical school-level class I made an A in.

Going to shadow both AAs and PAs (especially PAs, since most of my shadowing hours are from following around AAs). I think I will focus on shadowing primary care PAs since having an expressed interest in pursuing primary care seems to be one of the "du jour" methods for getting accepted to PA and/or medical school

 

[PAtoPharm]

If a gal has been married 5 times and is on the verge of divorce, the problem is with HER. Absolutely with her. Regardless of how horrible her partners are, there is a psychological reason why SHE is repeatedly picking back partners, and divorcing one bad partner and moving on to the next bad partner won't change anything in HER life. SHE needs to get counseling so SHE can make better choices. PERIOD. This is YOU! Regardless of how wrong pharmacy is for you, "divorcing" pharmacy and moving on to the next bad career choice won't change anything in your life, YOU need to get counseling to figure out how YOU can make better career choices for YOU!



I cut a lot of your post for brevity, but THIS explains a lot of your situation. The situation may be hard to explain, but I do understand where you are coming from here, even if your specifics are different than the family I grew up with. I totally understand the family dynamics that refuse to recognize an adult child as an adult. Again, all I can do is STRONGLY recommend you get counseling of some type...and that you TRUELY listen to your counselor. I switched counselors more than once because I didn't want to believe my biological family was as dysfunctional as it really was. I thought the counselor just couldn't possibly understand my particular situation.....I'm sure you are now thinking the same. But thankfully, I did eventually realize my counselors were being truthful with me, and that my biological family was completely dysfunctional. I slowly learned to set healthy boundaries, which is what you need also need to learn to set. I heard this kind of sentiment many times in my younger days, and completely disregarded it as irrelevant to my life, but there was thankfully a breaking point where I realized the truth everyone outside of my immediate family was telling me, and I realized the changes (which weren't easy) that I had to make. I was in my early 30's, I could beat myself up for not accepting counseling/changing my life sooner, but I am very thankful that if I have an average lifespan of ~80yrs, then the majority of my life will have been spent living psychologically healthy.

You are a smart guy, you can intellectually decide to make the right choice of seeking counseling, now. You have a lot of life left to enjoy, don't waste it in whatever unhealthiness your parents/environment have taught you.

And what if some counselor was to tell me that my only possible hope of having a professional career was in doing something I have no interest in for whatever reason (I don't actually like it even if I might be good at it, it doesn't pay enough, the lifestyle sucks, I'd have to live where I don't want to live, etc.)? Keep in mind that I have a specific set of criteria for whatever career I pursue, and I'm not willing to settle for something that doesn't meet those criteria. I would rather just randomly get hit by a speeding car and never know the difference than go into one of the fields a counselor would be likely to recommend.

At this point, I am bound to settle on some career I enjoy since I have basically narrowed the possibilities down so much already. When I was in AA school, what I hated most was where I had to live. After I got kicked out, I asked myself if I would've enjoyed my experience as an AA student more if I had been living somewhere I liked living in. I think the answer would have been yes. The fact is, that was the best opportunity I have ever had up until this point, and I am approx. 95% certain I could have passed by putting in more effort. Even my family was trying to convince me to get my act together when I was in school.

 

[Dalteparin]

And what if some counselor was to tell me that my only possible hope of having a professional career was in doing something I have no interest in for whatever reason (I don't actually like it even if I might be good at it, it doesn't pay enough, the lifestyle sucks, I'd have to live where I don't want to live, etc.)? Keep in mind that I have a specific set of criteria for whatever career I pursue, and I'm not willing to settle for something that doesn't meet those criteria. I would rather just randomly get hit by a speeding car and never know the difference than go into one of the fields a counselor would be likely to recommend.

With respect, that's not what counseling is. Good therapists don't tell you what to do. They help you develop decision-making and coping skills so that you can choose what's best for you.