The health care industry is bound to collapse soon, experts say

[urge]

If people would just go beyond the Fox news interpretation of a single payer system they might see that the rest of the world is really not as horrible as they were made to believe.
Every advanced country other than the US has a single payer system where people are entitled to health care the way they entitled to air, water, and dignity.
Most of those countries have much better outcomes than us at a fraction of the price.

And you chose to move from one of those great countries to the US for what reason?

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[ploidy]

I understand what you said. I think you don't understand exactly what you said. You have one kidney to transplant and two possible matches - one homeless, one is a CEO who never misses his doctor appointments or his meds. Who gets the kidney? Maybe he's not homeless, but works 2 minimum wage jobs. He isn't going to be able to afford transportation to get to and from follow up appointments.

Life isn't fair. We're not all equal. It would be great if we all had unicorns, but we don't.

I'm not offering solutions I'm saying how it should be. What makes the CEO's life more important than the person who works 2 minimum wage jobs. Hospitals obviously imagine the CEO deserves the organ more, but a doctor shouldn't put one life over another because of money it's really petty.

 

[ploidy]

You obviously have never seen a patient on Medicaid. They get everything done for them. Knee replacements, transplants, cataracts, you name it. They even send a driver to pick them from home and drive them back for their scheduled appointments.

The ones who suffer are the people who work and make just enough not to qualify for Medicaid.

I completely agree with you.

 

[deleted547339]

I'm not offering solutions I'm saying how it should be. What makes the CEO's life more important than the person who works 2 minimum wage jobs. Hospitals obviously imagine the CEO deserves the organ more, but a doctor shouldn't put one life over another because of money it's really petty.

You are oblivious to my point - probably because you don't practice medicine. A patient without the means to care for themselves cannot be given a transplant. It takes a lot of time off from work to recover from an organ transplant, you have to have constant access to reliable transportation, the ability to take off work frequently to have appointments with many specialists. It's not even that this person can't afford the transplant, it's that they can't afford to live with a transplant. Even if you take the cost of the medical care out of the picture, it's a bad move.

 

[ploidy]

You are oblivious to my point - probably because you don't practice medicine. A patient without the means to care for themselves cannot be given a transplant. It takes a lot of time off from work to recover from an organ transplant, you have to have constant access to reliable transportation, the ability to take off work frequently to have appointments with many specialists. It's not even that this person can't afford the transplant, it's that they can't afford to live with a transplant. Even if you take the cost of the medical care out of the picture, it's a bad move.

That's fair. What if in this scenario the person was able to afford the appropriate amount of time off work and have transportation to appointments? Still no where close to being as wealthy as the CEO.

 

[deleted547339]

That's fair. What if in this scenario the person was able to afford the appropriate amount of time off work and have transportation to appointments? Still no where close to being as wealthy as the CEO.

Then it's an entirely different discussion. But my point is that you can't see the whole picture, or even anywhere close. Not to mention that healthcare can't be a right. By definition, a right can't involve taking something from someone else. The only way to get healthcare is to get someone else's time. You are therefore taking something away from someone else to get your "right."

 

[Planktonmd]

And you chose to move from one of those great countries to the US for what reason?

For the same reason your ancestors came to this country... definitely not health care. By the way xenophobia is another direct result of having Fox news as your only source of education.

 

[Planktonmd]

Have you seen the healthcare worker strikes in U.K. ? The system is falling apart.

Health can be a human right, but not health care.

Health care means there is someone providing it and since slavery was abolished, nobody is entitled to other people's work.

No... in the 21st century health care is a human right, and should be guaranteed by society.

 

[Planktonmd]

What's their obesity and diabetic rate relative to ours?

A lot of data coming out has shown through Obamacare that increased access to healthcare coverage does not improve outcomes. In fact, at least one study I saw showed Obamacare may have harmed outcomes.

Did increasing access to opioid prescriptions through patient satisfaction reporting and expanding Medicaid coverage to low-income groups start an epidemic? Interesting thought to ponder.

The secret to their better outcomes is that they focus on prevention and education, while we focus on treating the results of the lack of prevention and education.

 

[Planktonmd]

Do they really?

Most of those countries are a lot less fat than we are.

Because they focus on prevention and education which is much cheaper than trying to fix the results of ignorance.

 

[dhb]

Because they focus on prevention and education which is much cheaper than trying to fix the results of ignorance.

Very untrue

 

[GravelRider]

Then it's an entirely different discussion. But my point is that you can't see the whole picture, or even anywhere close. Not to mention that healthcare can't be a right. By definition, a right can't involve taking something from someone else. The only way to get healthcare is to get someone else's time. You are therefore taking something away from someone else to get your "right."

Our Constitution says that we have the right to counsel. You have that right even if you don't have the means to pay the lawyer. You are utilizing that lawyer's time without the ability to compensate the lawyer.

 

[anbuitachi]

No... in the 21st century health care is a human right, and should be guaranteed by society.

says who

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

The secret to their better outcomes is that they focus on prevention and education, while we focus on treating the results of the lack of prevention and education.

You didn't read my link, did you?

 

[chessknt]

Our Constitution says that we have the right to counsel. You have that right even if you don't have the means to pay the lawyer. You are utilizing that lawyer's time without the ability to compensate the lawyer.

See I thought this too but then I realized that a public defender is the **** tier of the legal system. It would be like if Medicaid patients had used needles and unsupervised resident care. Nobody has ever floated the idea of making the law single payor so why are we doing it for medicine?

 

[Planktonmd]

Based on the logic of some people above it seems that when one calls the fire department or the police to request their services, they probably should ask for a credit card before they provide the service...
We are after all utilizing their time and they deserve that we pay them for it!

 

[mxg67]

Not sure about the other hospitals, but MD Anderson's issues were due to poor management and decision-making. They transitioned to EPIC and didn't plan well for costs or patient revenue, they spent money on a IBM watson project that failed, and the CEO's wife was getting some extra perks. That's not to say that they, as well as most hospitals, couldn't stand to cut some of their workforce, especially on the non-provider side. For MD anderson, it seems that ended up being the case.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Based on the logic of some people above it seems that when one calls the fire department or the police to request their services, they probably should ask for a credit card before they provide the service...
We are after all utilizing their time and they deserve that we pay them for it!

Why don't you look into how fire departments and police are paid. In my state, at least, its done with property taxes.

There are instances of voluntary fees for fire coverage that, when not paid, result in no fire service: Firefighters let home burn over $75 fee -- again

 

[urge]

No... in the 21st century health care is a human right, and should be guaranteed by society.

Do you want to go back to slavery?

 

[urge]

The secret to their better outcomes is that they focus on prevention and education, while we focus on treating the results of the lack of prevention and education.

Disagree. They turn down the tough cases. Only so the easy ones. That's why a lot of them come to the US for training after they finished training in their country

 

[urge]

Because they focus on prevention and education which is much cheaper than trying to fix the results of ignorance.

It's cheaper to deny care to high risk cases.

 

[Consigliere]

Based on the logic of some people above it seems that when one calls the fire department or the police to request their services, they probably should ask for a credit card before they provide the service...
We are after all utilizing their time and they deserve that we pay them for it!

We do; by way of our taxes.

 

[urge]

For the same reason your ancestors came to this country... definitely not health care.

My ancestors have long been dead before I got a chance to ask them. Do you care to answer the question why you came here if you think what you left behind is so great?

 

[urge]

Our Constitution says that we have the right to counsel. You have that right even if you don't have the means to pay the lawyer. You are utilizing that lawyer's time without the ability to compensate the lawyer.

There is nothing about healthcare in the constitution.

 

[doctalaughs]

I agree healthcare is not a "right".

You could make the argument that we should as a society provide a basic level of healthcare to those that can't afford it. However, we have to admit the obvious fact that resources are NOT unlimited and we have to ration care into a tiered system. Those that pay more get better care. It's simple math yet people insist on ignoring that.


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[Chibucks15]

So assuming it does crash? Pretty much everyone's screwed but docs? I feel like we're pretty indispensable


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[Man o War]

If the crash involves less clipboard warriors measuring fingernails in the OR or bitching about the tshirt I've been wearing under my scrubs for decades, I might be ok with it.
I wonder how much money is wasted on these upper management wanna bes while the hospital "can't afford" subsidies for docs and benefits/salary for nursing staff. You know, the people actually providing the health care.

 

[d9sccr]

For those arguing that healthcare is a right and everyone deserves it, how do you feel about personal responsibility?

Should society be accountable for providing healthcare for:

Smokers
Alcoholics
Drug abusers
Patients meeting criteria for metabolic syndrome and noncompliant with weight loss and lifestyle interventions to get out of this category
Patients that despite access continue to have uncontrolled HgbA1c (not patients with brittle diabetes)
Non-compliant patients in general

 

[Planktonmd]

My ancestors have long been dead before I got a chance to ask them. Do you care to answer the question why you came here if you think what you left behind is so great?

I already answered your question! I came here for the same reason your ancestors decided to leave wherever they were from and come here. You are smart enough and I am sure you could figure out the answer without asking your dead ancestors.

 

[urge]

I already answered your question! I came here for the same reason your ancestors decided to leave wherever they were from and come here. You are smart enough and I am sure you could figure out the answer without asking your dead ancestors.

I'll interpret your silence on the matter. You are wanted by the law. That's it.

 

[Planktonmd]

We do; by way of our taxes.

But some people don't pay taxes because they don't make enough money, so should they be excluded from fire and police services?

 

[Planktonmd]

I'll interpret your silence on the matter. You are wanted by the law. That's it.

Oh no... did you really have to tell everyone?

 

[deleted162650]

Man, @urge getting fiesty lately. You OK dude? Let's not lose another long time contributor here.

 

[Consigliere]

For those arguing that healthcare is a right and everyone deserves it, how do you feel about personal responsibility?

Should society be accountable for providing healthcare for:

Smokers
Alcoholics
Drug abusers
Patients meeting criteria for metabolic syndrome and noncompliant with weight loss and lifestyle interventions to get out of this category
Patients that despite access continue to have uncontrolled HgbA1c (not patients with brittle diabetes)
Non-compliant patients in general

Be careful there, Sparky. There are many who would argue that alcoholism and drug addiction are diseases, much like diabetes.

 

[waterbottle10]

For those arguing that healthcare is a right and everyone deserves it, how do you feel about personal responsibility?

Should society be accountable for providing healthcare for:

Smokers
Alcoholics
Drug abusers
Patients meeting criteria for metabolic syndrome and noncompliant with weight loss and lifestyle interventions to get out of this category
Patients that despite access continue to have uncontrolled HgbA1c (not patients with brittle diabetes)
Non-compliant patients in general

Yes. In America nothing is the customers/patients fault.

 

[deleted126335]

There is nothing about healthcare in the constitution.

Actually under the eighth amendment there is one group in the US that has a constitutional right to health care....wait for it....the incarcerated.


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[ploidy]

Then it's an entirely different discussion. But my point is that you can't see the whole picture, or even anywhere close. Not to mention that healthcare can't be a right. By definition, a right can't involve taking something from someone else. The only way to get healthcare is to get someone else's time. You are therefore taking something away from someone else to get your "right."

My entire point was that health care should not distinguish between social status. I am not a politician or a doctor, I offer no solutions to it I am simply stating my opinion as someone who has seen the differences in health care between the wealthy and poor.

Also, if I am recalling past studies correctly there is a positive correlation between cocaine, alcohol and marijuana use and higher family income rates.

 

[GravelRider]

Can we get back on the topic of the impending healthcare implosion? I get giddy thinking about it.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

But some people don't pay taxes because they don't make enough money, so should they be excluded from fire and police services?

Everyone pays property taxes, otherwise you have no property to worry about catching fire

 

[doctalaughs]

My entire point was that health care should not distinguish between social status. I am not a politician or a doctor, I offer no solutions to it I am simply stating my opinion as someone who has seen the differences in health care between the wealthy and poor.

Also, if I am recalling past studies correctly there is a positive correlation between cocaine, alcohol and marijuana use and higher family income rates.

Seeing things in black and white is a childish point of view. Providing "healthcare" (a nebulous term) equally is not like providing water, as a single person can only drink so much water.

Lets say there is a cancer treatment that provides a 20% cure for an otherwise terminal disease. If you don't get it, you will die within 1 year. If you do, 80% of patients live an extra year and 20% are "cured." However, the treatment costs 1 million dollars initially and the 20% "cured" will take the drug for the rest of their lives at the cost of 1 million/ year. There is no other treatment like it.

This is a very realistic example of choices we have today:

1. This treatment is a "right" we have to provide everyone in the US with. Along with other expensive interventions, if we offer it to everyone, it will bankrupt our nation.

2. We do not offer this treatment to anyone. Those with the cancer will die or get treatment on the black market or overseas if they can afford it.

3. The government immediately seizes the drug/treatment from private industry, nationalizes the involved companies and forces them to produce it for 500k/year. We might be able to offer it to 2x more people (but still not all) and in the future no further drugs/ innovations are made.

4. We provide basic cost effective treatment to the general populace ( vaccines, generic meds, etc) but if you want super-expensive stuff you pay for it, like anything else.


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[GravelRider]

I think that as a country we have already decided that there is a right to basic healthcare and emergent life-saving services. The problem is that we have not defined what constitutes "basic." The other problem is that some people are being excluded from certain treatments because of the ridiculous and absurd price inflation that occurs in healthcare. It is not a normal supply and demand market.

 

[ploidy]

Seeing things in black and white is a childish point of view. Providing "healthcare" (a nebulous term) equally is not like providing water, as a single person can only drink so much water.

Lets say there is a cancer treatment that provides a 20% cure for an otherwise terminal disease. If you don't get it, you will die within 1 year. If you do, 80% of patients live an extra year and 20% are "cured." However, the treatment costs 1 million dollars initially and the 20% "cured" will take the drug for the rest of their lives at the cost of 1 million/ year. There is no other treatment like it.

This is a very realistic example of choices we have today:

1. This treatment is a "right" we have to provide everyone in the US with. Along with other expensive interventions, if we offer it to everyone, it will bankrupt our nation.

2. We do not offer this treatment to anyone. Those with the cancer will die or get treatment on the black market or overseas if they can afford it.

3. The government immediately seizes the drug/treatment from private industry, nationalizes the involved companies and forces them to produce it for 500k/year. We might be able to offer it to 2x more people (but still not all) and in the future no further drugs/ innovations are made.

4. We provide basic cost effective treatment to the general populace ( vaccines, generic meds, etc) but if you want super-expensive stuff you pay for it, like anything else.


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Again, I never offered solutions to anything, I have no idea how **** works. Perhaps the problem lies within the pharmaceutical companies, I don't know. I still think how wealthy someone is should not be a factor when giving treatment.

 

[doctalaughs]

Again, I never offered solutions to anything, I have no idea how **** works. Perhaps the problem lies within the pharmaceutical companies, I don't know. I still think how wealthy someone is should not be a factor when giving treatment.

Thats fine to say as an impossible ideal, but does not help. Kids "should" not get murdered either, but it happens. Life is not fair.

Logistically, the only way to offer a limited resource equally is to have an authoritarian government who decides which services will be affordable to provide to everyone, and those that have money who illicitly seek additional better care are shot on sight.

Even most European socialist-leaning countries have a private sector where you can pay to get better/ faster care, although they try to hide this.


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[deleted547339]

Are we all getting trolled hard?

 

[Mman]

health care is not and should not be a right in the same fashion of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness that are enshrined in our Declaration of Independence. To argue that it is a human right is to argue that somebody must provide it to you for free, even against their will. Health care is a service provided by skilled and knowledgeable people. If it was a basic right, it would've been free all along in many societies for thousands of years. But even today it isn't a right in any society. In many, it is a service that is paid for by taxes, but that isn't a right.

If people want to argue that as a civilized society we should provide some level of health care as a service freely available to all, make that argument. Just don't pretend it's a human right. Because if it's a human right, than we as a society require the ability to stop you from smoking, being sedentary, and eating a bunch of crap.

 

[urge]

Our Constitution says that we have the right to counsel. You have that right even if you don't have the means to pay the lawyer. You are utilizing that lawyer's time without the ability to compensate the lawyer.

I thought about this for a while and realized the reason for it. This only applies to criminal cases, the sort where your liberty is taken (jail time) before even knowing if you are guilty. It's the least they could do and it is not enough.

Which basic human right are healthcare workers taking from individuals to merit their enslavement in the sake of human rights?

AMENDMENT VI
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In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

Constitute

 

[deleted126335]

I thought about this for a while and realized the reason for it. This only applies to criminal cases, the sort where your liberty is taken (jail time) before even knowing if you are guilty. It's the least they could do and it is not enough.

Which basic human right are healthcare workers taking from individuals to merit their enslavement in the sake of human rights?



Constitute

The right to have an attorney without charge wasn't codified till the 1960s. Prior to that you had the right to counsel if you could afford it, or knew a lawyer that would work for free. A guy representing himself changed the law of the land. We should all be proud.
Gideon v. Wainwright - Wikipedia

 

[GravelRider]

health care is not and should not be a right in the same fashion of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness that are enshrined in our Declaration of Independence. To argue that it is a human right is to argue that somebody must provide it to you for free, even against their will. Health care is a service provided by skilled and knowledgeable people. If it was a basic right, it would've been free all along in many societies for thousands of years. But even today it isn't a right in any society. In many, it is a service that is paid for by taxes, but that isn't a right.

If people want to argue that as a civilized society we should provide some level of health care as a service freely available to all, make that argument. Just don't pretend it's a human right. Because if it's a human right, than we as a society require the ability to stop you from smoking, being sedentary, and eating a bunch of crap.

Life?, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness...

For the record, I don't know if I would go as far as saying healthcare is a basic human right, but I'm not sure this is the best argument to say that it isn't. We have a fair number of "rights" in our Constitution that I would argue are rights granted by the United States and not basic human rights. These are like the perks of living in America.

 

[GravelRider]

I thought about this for a while and realized the reason for it. This only applies to criminal cases, the sort where your liberty is taken (jail time) before even knowing if you are guilty. It's the least they could do and it is not enough.

Which basic human right are healthcare workers taking from individuals to merit their enslavement in the sake of human rights?



Constitute

Are public defenders slaves?

 

[urge]

Are public defenders slaves?

No, they are paid with the liberty they took from you.

Which basic right would you like to lose in order in oder to pay healthcare workers?

I say the right to vote. Or maybe liberty. I'm sure POD could use a few extra hands in his farm business. The possibilities are endless.