Texas academic fresh start question

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Hope you get a positive response, but if not, try the Houston metropolitan area. The CCs there allow for AFS. An option is move to Houston temporarily, enroll in CC under AFS just to get the AFS declaration on your transcript, then transfer to a 4 year institution in DFW (if you are dead set on living there) to finish out the remaining hours needed to make the 90. TMDSAS only wants to see the AFS declaration on any transcript before they discount grades >10 yrs.

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I know U of Houston doesn't do it if you have a degree. Actually says it on their website. Do the Houston CCs do it with a degree for sure? That would be music to my ears!


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Yup.

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As recent as 2009. Can't say for sure all CCs, but main one Houston CC honors AFS for those with undergraduate degrees. Search their website for the AFS declaration pdf.
 
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As recent as 2009. Can't say for sure all CCs, but main one Houston CC honors AFS for those with undergraduate degrees. Search their website for the AFS declaration pdf.

Thank you so much! Dallas was certainly the plan, but Houston is no slouch at all. We may go there just to get an academic fresh start, but we very well could end up loving it and just stick around. I cannot even begin to express how grateful I am for this new information.


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Hey. Good luck man. I was in your position awhile back and I got a lot of help from SDNers, so just paying it back.
 
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Hey. Good luck man. I was in your position awhile back and I got a lot of help from SDNers, so just paying it back.

Does their academic fresh start declaration PDF actually state that they except people with degrees? I found a PDF of the form that you sign, a declaration page, but it doesn't state anything about excepting those with undergraduate degrees. Just making sure I'm looking at the right form.


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No, the AFS form does not specify. But take me as the example, it works. I have multiple degrees. You'll be alright. If you are still uncertain, just call their registrar's office on Monday to confirm.
 
No, the AFS form does not specify. But take me as the example, it works. I have multiple degrees. You'll be alright. If you are still uncertain, just call their registrar's office on Monday to confirm.

It almost seems like if you mentioned it like it's a potential issue they start to question it. I may just have to take a leap of faith knowing that you actually did it with multiple degrees and go for it. A couple of people told me yes at Dallas schools until they realize I had asked about having a previous degree. Then, they went back on their initial ruling after checking with a higher up and said no.


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It won't be an issue. HCC is open admissions, so they don't care about your previous history, just want your money. If you paid for your classes and never show up, HCC wouldn't bat an eye. But they do follow the law and their credits transfer to 4 yr universities.
 
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It won't be an issue. HCC is open admissions, so they don't care about your previous history, just want your money. If you paid for your classes and never show up, HCC wouldn't bat an eye. But they do follow the law and their credits transfer to 4 yr universities.

Bam! I'll wait to hear from these Dallas schools and report back to help folks out, but I'll know HCC is a go and devise my plan around that school. Already told the wife and she's on board as long as we're not moving there and hoping it works out. I'm no longer worried. Gotta take some risks anyway. This entire medical school process will be a risk anyway, haha.

Thank you again.


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No Problem. All you need is the TAFS declaration on your transcript and when you enroll at HCC with the AFS declaration, you will see the declaration on your HCC transcript, which you can use after the 1st or 2nd semester to transfer to a 4 yr uni for upper division science classes to satisfy the 90 hours. TMDSAS only has to see the AFS declaration on a transcript to discount grades >= 10 yrs old.
 
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Perfect. I won't even ask HCC, I'll just wait to hear from Dallas schools and if they won't honor it after some healthy discourse, we'll go for Houston. If I make AFS with a degree seem like a big deal, HCC might turn it in to a big deal. I'll just fill out the form and let nature take its course, since you've done it before. I don't know if anyone whose done it at the Dallas CC's or schools with a degree so it seems they are continuing to do what they've always done. I expect HCC to do the same.


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I'll just wait to hear from Dallas schools and if they won't honor it after some healthy discourse, we'll go for Houston.
Please do keep us posted if it works out for you... In the end, I did not ever find any school willing to honor it. So I gave up. However, I apply next year so if you find a solution that would be huge. I'm limited to the DFW region.
 
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The law is clear, but the problem is that it is so rarely declared by students relative to the amount of students who register at any given college that registrars are ignorant of it. I had to go back and forth via email with the CC I declared AFS at before she came to her senses and changed the transcript to delete grades >10 years.
When you say she "deleted the grades" that were over ten years old, do you mean you had previously attended that very same CC? I only ask because that was some of the push back I received from CC's. They won't give me a "fresh start" if I had never taken classes there to begin with. Regardless of the fact that I already had degrees...
 
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When you say she "deleted the grades" that were over ten years old, do you mean you had previously attended that very same CC? I only ask because that was some of the push back I received from CC's. They won't give me a "fresh start" if I had never taken classes there to begin with. Regardless of the fact that I already had degrees...

I made it work after they kept telling me "no". I enrolled under Fresh Start as a non-degree seeking student at a school that already awarded me an AA degree in 2012. I took one course with them, got the transcripts annotated and bounced.
It was no fun.
I took a summer mini online course and turned in my transcripts as soon as they fixed it. Applied TMDSAS in June which annoyed me.

I even emailed them the TMDSAS info on what was required to help them out. :)
I doubt they ever dealt with my issue before.
Final sGPA ~ 3.8
Final cGPA ~ 3.7x
TMDSAS verified
 
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Please do keep us posted if it works out for you... In the end, I did not ever find any school willing to honor it. So I gave up. However, I apply next year so if you find a solution that would be huge. I'm limited to the DFW region.

I got you!


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When you say she "deleted the grades" that were over ten years old, do you mean you had previously attended that very same CC? I only ask because that was some of the push back I received from CC's. They won't give me a "fresh start" if I had never taken classes there to begin with. Regardless of the fact that I already had degrees...

This is an excellent question. @DV-T did you attend HCC prior to going for AFS or only when you decided to go for AFS? That could make a huge difference. The fact that you got them to do it with a degree earned is still amazing.


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When you say she "deleted the grades" that were over ten years old, do you mean you had previously attended that very same CC? I only ask because that was some of the push back I received from CC's. They won't give me a "fresh start" if I had never taken classes there to begin with. Regardless of the fact that I already had degrees...

Yes, I did take classes with the CC way back when for my first undergrad degree. But as evidenced by @CastleG8, you just need to enroll at HCC, with the AFS declaration, take some classes, get the transcript with the AFS designation and transfer to a 4 year for upper level science division.

When I transferred my AFS credits to another accredited university (with which I never took classes with them before), I was able to get a signed letter from the register indicating my AFS status (since they wouldn't put the designation on their transcript).

TMDSAS either wants the AFS designation on the transcript or a letter from the registrar indicating AFS status.

@CareerNumTwo You said you were limited to DFW, so there is no possibility to come temporarily during the summer or winter session (3 week English 101 course, a prerequisite) to enroll at HCC for a class under AFS and then return to DFW with the AFS designation on your HCC transcript?

Gotta think outside the box here.
 
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This is an excellent question. @DV-T did you attend HCC prior to going for AFS or only when you decided to go for AFS? That could make a huge difference. The fact that you got them to do it with a degree earned is still amazing.


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Yes, see above answer, but that shouldn't make a difference. However, a quick call to the register might be appropriate if you are unconvinced.

My reasoning is that since the HCC AFS declaration does not mention anything about a previous degree (unlike UofH) or limited to previous classes taken at HCC, then it should not be an issue. If they wanted to limit the AFS declaration to only students who took classes at HCC, then I think they would have had the foresight to include it in the AFS Declaration form, right?
 
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I doubt they ever dealt with my issue before.
Final sGPA ~ 3.8
Final cGPA ~ 3.7x
TMDSAS verified

Congrats on your new GPAs. That's awesome.

I agree that many (ALL in my experience) have little to no experience dealing with this. What annoys me is that we're not spring chickens and we've all overcome really poor performance in our pasts. Yet when I speak with the higher ed administration people, i get push back and power trips. It's disheartening.


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What do you mean when you mention contacting a representative. Who is this representative? I feel like getting someone on my side to help me convince UNT that having a degree is not a barrier under Texas law would be of the benefit.

representative, as in whatever corrupt politician serves your district :D
 
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Yes, see above answer, but that shouldn't make a difference. However, a quick call to the register might be appropriate if you are unconvinced.

My reasoning is that since the HCC AFS declaration does not mention anything about a previous degree (unlike UofH) or limited to previous classes taken at HCC, then it should not be an issue. If they wanted to limit the AFS declaration to only students who took classes at HCC, then I think they would have had the foresight to include it in the AFS Declaration form, right?

Aaaaaah. I hope it doesn't make a difference but it does seem like when folks meet resistance from the CCs it is always in regard to either no Bachelor's degree or not having taken classes at that school before. We'd be good with the degree, which is awesome. If they follow suit and only allow AFS if you've taken courses there before, no dice.

I really, really don't want to call and ask anyone about this. On the other hand, there is no other way to be sure that not attending there in the past won't pose a problem with invoking AFS.

The one bright spot is that they do allow a previous Bachelor's degree. Most schools in the DFW area do not and UH doesn't either. Since HCC does allow the degree, it is highly possible that they'll allow AFS having not attended HCC before. I figure if they are standing apart on one major issue with AFS it is likely they do their own thing in general. I just need to decide if I want to chance it by showing up or give them a shout and risk putting a concept in their head that may not even exist.

Such a simple law shouldn't create such difficulty, haha.
 
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Here is what I would do if I was in your shoes right now. Don't call because you are going to get someone who will have little to no idea about AFS. If you can, come down to Houston during the winter for 3 weeks, enroll in HCC declaring AFS, and take an English 101 prereq. (3 weeks only) for $120 or so. Then afterwards, request a transcript and see it the AFS declaration is on it. I have no doubt that it will be, so then you can move your wife down to Houston to finish enough hours to transfer to 4 yr uni.

What have you got to lose but a little over $1000 total for 3 week lodging and the course? In the grand scheme of things, if this works, $1000 compare to the lifetime earnings of a doctor? No contest. Gotta roll the dice if you want it bad enough.
 
Here is what I would do if I was in your shoes right now. Don't call because you are going to get someone who will have little to no idea about AFS. If you can, come down to Houston during the winter for 3 weeks, enroll in HCC declaring AFS, and take an English 101 prereq. (3 weeks only) for $120 or so. Then afterwards, request a transcript and see it the AFS declaration is on it. I have no doubt that it will be, so then you can move your wife down to Houston to finish enough hours to transfer to 4 yr uni.

What have you got to lose but a little over $1000 total for 3 week lodging and the course? In the grand scheme of things, if this works, $1000 compare to the lifetime earnings of a doctor? No contest. Gotta roll the dice if you want it bad enough.

That would be amazing if it would work. The problem is, you have to be a resident. I'd need 12 months to establish residency. I live in Washington state.
 
Nope. 12 month residency status is only used to determine the rate of tuition you will pay. So it will not be $120, but a little more if you do what I suggested. You can enroll at HCC as an out of state resident.

Admissions - Houston Community College | HCC

Sec. 51.931. RIGHT TO AN ACADEMIC FRESH START. (a) This section applies to any public institution of higher education as defined in Section 61.003 of this code.

(b) Unless otherwise prohibited by law, a resident of this state is entitled to apply for admission to and enroll as an undergraduate student in any public institution of higher education under this section.
 
Ok. You got me. But the part about taking a risk still stands, if all other options fail.
 
Ok. You got me. But the part about taking a risk still stands, if all other options fail.

Indeed. I think it's worth the risk. Worst case, we spend a year in Texas and get to see what life is like. I may even go on my own and establish residency then apply under AFS and send for the family if all goes well.
 
That's a good approach!!

As an aside, you want to come to Texas, ironically, UW Med is my top choice!!
 
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This is a link to HCC's AFS petition.


http://www.hccs.edu/media/houston-c...mic-affairs/Academic-Fresh-Start-(Update).pdf


Provisions
Students seeking admission to Houston Community College may utilize the provisions outlined in Subchapter Z, Chapter 51, Section 51.929 of the Education Code. This allows any applicant at Houston Community College to be admitted by excluding from consideration all academic course credits or grades earned by the applicant 10 or more years prior to the starting date of the semester in which the applicant seeks to enroll. An applicant who makes the election to apply under this section and is admitted as a student may not receive any course credit at Houston Community College for any courses undertaken 10 or more years prior to enrollment under this section from any institution.

I am starting to think one might be able to get away with using AFS at HCC even as a non-resident. I wouldn't be willing to risk that but I am definitely starting to think that they will not care about where you attended prior to enrolling at HCC under AFS. They say any applicant is allowed. Something about the way this entire petition is worded gives me the impression that they don't reject any AFS application. They want to make sure you understand that this is a permanent choice, mentioning this multiple times.

I think it'll be cool.

Side note: They don't even have the right section of the education code listed.
 
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@DV-T Just a thought... I know the code says the class must be taken "in residence" and this could completely fail, but what are the chances HCC would give me a letter/transcript designation from an online course? I'm not aware of any accredited school that differentiates between "online" and classroom based instruction...
 
Based on the following sections of the Texas Education Code, I do not see how it is possible for any school to deny you admission under AFS, regardless of having previously earned a Bachelor's degree or not. I'm not sure that they are aware of the actual wording of the law. When you speak to the admissions counselors, most of them cite the "College For All Texans" website that has a simplified explanation, but does not outline the state law itself.

I just relooked at the website and yes, it's a simplified explanation and it doesn't bode well for people in our situation. Especially this line: "The Director of Admissions at the college or university where you are planning to enroll is the final authority on applying or interpreting your right to an Academic Fresh Start." College For All Texans: Academic Fresh Start

Looking forward to seeing if you can make it work!
 
I just relooked at the website and yes, it's a simplified explanation and it doesn't bode well for people in our situation. Especially this line: "The Director of Admissions at the college or university where you are planning to enroll is the final authority on applying or interpreting your right to an Academic Fresh Start." College For All Texans: Academic Fresh Start

Looking forward to seeing if you can make it work!

I've seen that as well, so I feel you. My argument would be that statement comes from a generic website, not any section from the official Texas law. Most of these schools probably go straight to that website but never look at what the applicable sections from the law state. That's why I made sure to include the actual sections from the Education Code of Texas state law to back up my position. I think that their use of that College For All Texans website would be a lazy ruling and looking at the actual law, they won't have a leg to stand on.

EDUCATION CODE CHAPTER 51. PROVISIONS GENERALLY APPLICABLE TO HIGHER EDUCATION

Check out section 51.931. It says nothing about the Director of Admissions having the final say. It says Texas residents are entitled to an Academic Fresh Start. I think it is a simple as them being challenged using the actual code. If they still refuse to budge, I believe @esob is correct in that contacting a Texas state representative would put an end to any further resistance. Based on what I'm reading in the law, the schools aren't following the law at all. They've come up with some random ruling on how they choose to handle the Fresh Start law. It really isn't up to their interpretation. It's state law and actually uses the word "entitled." As a resident, you're entitled to an Academic Fresh Start. Their opinions shouldn't matter. It looks like only Houston CC actually gets this.
 
I dug deeper and I don't believe that College For All Texans site is generic after all. It actually appears to be a website run by the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board (THECB). Even knowing that, I bet you that presenting the actual code would go a long way. I just don't think many if any schools have ever looked at the text of the code. The THECB says on that website that final authority is with the Director of Admissions. A prospective AFS applicant would need to persuade the Director of Admissions. It's up to us to present the code and argue that we're entitled to AFS as Texas residents, per the code.

If I meet too much resistance with the DFW schools, I am going to take a shot with HCC. It's absolutely worth it in my opinion. I'd move to Texas and take core classes online while establishing residency and then once I hit 12 months I'd apply to HCC as a resident and submit the AFS petition along with my application for admission. I won't ask them for permission or mention a degree, nor the fact that I've never attended HCC. They will figure that out anyway. If it works (I'm confident it will), success! If it doesn't work, I'll present the code to them in person at a meeting with the Director of Admissions. If they still don't budge, at least I tried. It's a calculated risk that I believe is going to pay off, one way or another.
 
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@DV-T Just a thought... I know the code says the class must be taken "in residence" and this could completely fail, but what are the chances HCC would give me a letter/transcript designation from an online course? I'm not aware of any accredited school that differentiates between "online" and classroom based instruction...

Unlike @drdakdoc in Washington state, I was under the impression you were already a TX resident. If so, this might work with a prerequisite taken online after declaring AFS. If you are not an established resident already, an AFS declaration upon enrolling in an online class might trigger closer scrutiny of your application. But, it is worth a shot, if all other options fail. The only thing you lose is time/hassle if they reject your application for admission and AFS declaration upon enrolling online (if you are not a resident).

If I meet too much resistance with the DFW schools, I am going to take a shot with HCC. It's absolutely worth it in my opinion. I'd move to Texas and take core classes online while establishing residency and then once I hit 12 months I'd apply to HCC as a resident and submit the AFS petition along with my application for admission. I won't ask them for permission or mention a degree, nor the fact that I've never attended HCC. They will figure that out anyway. If it works (I'm confident it will), success! If it doesn't work, I'll present the code to them in person at a meeting with the Director of Admissions. If they still don't budge, at least I tried. It's a calculated risk that I believe is going to pay off, one way or another.

For this to work, you cannot take core classes online while establishing residency since once you declare AFS, they will not count towards the 90 hours needed and you will have to take them again. (see TMDSAS provision, "A minimum of 90 undergraduate semester hours, including ALL of the required courses, must be earned, after the 10 year cutoff date is established by enrolling under Academic Fresh Start."

What I suggest is take 1 or 2 upper division science courses at one of the Houston 4 year universities (UH Downtown, UH ClearLake, Texas State University, etc) or DFW area uni as a part-time student to establish residency, then after residency is secured, apply to HCC under AFS to start the 90 hours required and take core classes like English 101, 102, etc to get enough hours to then transfer to another 4 year university (UH Central or a uni in DFW area) to finish off the 90 hour minimum with 3000/4000 science courses.

This way, you will meet the TMDSAS 90 minimum required after declaring AFS. The sciences courses you take as a part-timer while est. residency will also be counted by TMDSAS as BMCP because they are not over 10 yrs old.
 
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Unlike @drdakdoc in Washington state, I was under the impression you were already a TX resident. If so, this might work with a prerequisite taken online after declaring AFS. If you are not an established resident already, an AFS declaration upon enrolling in an online class might trigger closer scrutiny of your application. But, it is worth a shot, if all other options fail. The only thing you lose is time/hassle if they reject your application for admission and AFS declaration upon enrolling online (if you are not a resident).



For this to work, you cannot take core classes online while establishing residency since once you declare AFS, they will not count towards the 90 hours needed and you will have to take them again. (see TMDSAS provision, "A minimum of 90 undergraduate semester hours, including ALL of the required courses, must be earned, after the 10 year cutoff date is established by enrolling under Academic Fresh Start."

What I suggest is take 1 or 2 upper division science courses at one of the Houston 4 year universities (UH Downtown, UH ClearLake, Texas State University, etc) or DFW area uni as a part-time student to establish residency, then after residency is secured, apply to HCC under AFS to start the 90 hours required and take core classes like English 101, 102, etc to get enough hours to then transfer to another 4 year university (UH Central or a uni in DFW area) to finish off the 90 hour minimum with 3000/4000 science courses.

This way, you will meet the TMDSAS 90 minimum required after declaring AFS. The sciences courses you take as a part-timer while est. residency will also be counted by TMDSAS as BMCP because they are not over 10 yrs old.

I'm confused. Why do you say that core classes taken online won't count? Any classes taken after the 10 year cutoff will count, including courses taken before declaring AFS. I was actually thinking of taking online courses at a school outside of Texas while establishing residency, so that I didn't have to find a school outside of HCC to take courses. I guess I could always take some at another local school that isn't HCC. I just don't understand why you say the courses taken won't count towards the 90 hours needed. It doesn't matter if they are core classes or the science prerequisites, as long as they were taken after the 10 year cutoff date. The 10 year cutoff date would be well before 2018, for example.
 
Ah! Were you under the impression that I was talking about taking these core classes at HCC? I meant a different school entirely. Whether core classes, prerequisites or upper division sciences, the type of class doesn't matter as long as it is taken after the 10 year cutoff date. I do understand what you mean if you thought I'd take them at the same school (HCC in this case), as they might be erased by that school. Seems the CCs will not count any coursework taken at their school regardless of cutoff date, if I am understanding correctly. Otherwise, I don't understand what you meant.
 
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The core classes I am referring to are the basic core courses TX medical schools require in order for you to be eligible to apply (6 hours of English, 8 hours general bio with lab, General chem, physics, etc). If you take these TX medical school requirements before you declare AFS at HCC, TMDSAS will not count them toward the 90 hour minimum. You will need to take them again after declaring AFS at HCC.
 
The core classes I am referring to are the basic core courses TX medical schools require in order for you to be eligible to apply (6 hours of English, 8 hours general bio with lab, General chem, physics, etc). If you take these TX medical school requirements before you declare AFS at HCC, TMDSAS will not count them toward the 90 hour minimum. You will need to take them again after declaring AFS at HCC.

I see what you mean after reading the TMDSAS AFS page. It's tough, because that can be interpreted in two different ways.

1. You have to complete 90 hours after invoking AFS. Even though courses taken less than 10 years after you declare AFS count, they don't count toward the 90 hours TMDSAS requires to apply to medical school.

2. You have to complete a total of 90 hours from the date that is established as the 10 year cutoff. In this case, anything taken after the date established as the 10 year cutoff works.

Based on several accounts offered by SDN members who have declared AFS, the second of those two scenarios seems to be the consensus. It would be nice to clear this up though.

@esob or anyone else who has declared AFS, can you add your input and let us know if your courses taken after before AFS declaration but after the 10 year cutoff date have been confirmed as recognized by TMDSAS for the 90 hours needed?


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@drdakdoc Number 2 is definitely correct. The cutoff date is ten years ago, not when you declare AFS. I had this cleared up by TMDSAS. They advised me that I only need to complete one class after declaration to make it official.

@DV-T I'm a Texas resident living out of state, which makes my situation tricky. I'm active military and both Texas and TMDSAS consider me a resident. Fortunately I'm moving back to the state early next year so it will make things less complicated.


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Well, I stand corrected. Then that is great for @drdakdoc and @CareerNumTwo.

I heard TX medical schools love military!! Thank you for your service!!
 
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So it really all comes down to whether Houston CC or any of the DFW schools will require an applicant to have previously attended their school in order to declare AFS. I can't wait to hear back from some Dallas schools in the next few days. I wrote them all later in the day on Friday. If it comes down to Houston CC being the only option, I'm not going to call and ask, I'm just going to go for it and trust my gut.
 
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