Terminal/Transitional Leave Shenanigans

[Homunculus]

the big green weenie strikes again.

a little background info-- my wife and I are active duty, I'm currently deployed, and we are both subspecialists. her ADSO is up 30 Jun. she's in a department of 2. so you see where this is going. I don't have the best of relationships with my OIC-- I'm respectful and we have a working relationship but that's how I would leave it. my wife has i think been grouped with me unfairly by our OIC but has never done anything other than her best work and still continues to run circles around her civilian colleague who is routinely 2-3 weeks behind on charts.

we warned our command last fall that there could be an issue with coverage if/when my wife REFRADed out. they didn't seem to care. so, in jan or so she put in Aug 20 as her last date, planning on 1 month of transitional leave from 20Jul-20Aug to allow for her replacement to at least show up and sign in.

fast forward to recent, and now our OIC is wanting to deny her leave. further, they want our section chief to deny it as an "exercise in leadership." yes, I **** you not. exact reasonings are still pending since this is a recent development.

this stinks to high heaven. i personally think there are other motives at play-- there are no other specialists available for backfill, and we had discussed having my wife extend until Nov to help with the transition but she has a job offer and is done with active duty and the games that are played. she couldn't be deployed but could definitely be tasked to NTC or some other stupid thing once her replacement arrives giving them a "spare" body-- and needless to say we don't trust our OIC not to do something like that. otherwise i can't for the life of me see the rationale behind denying it. it seems arbitrary and punitive for no reason which i will explain below.

we've discussed it, and our first step is asking the middle man in the situation to defer his decision-- or even "approve" the leave since he personally disagrees with our OIC's position. this will (should) force our OIC to 1) officially deny it and 2) allow us to make them give rationale for why.

then things get interesting. there is precedent in the department of a previous physician getting out and leaving 1 colleague behind. interestingly, his terminal leave was approved and he was gone 6 weeks before his final out. this was less than a year ago. further-- i deployed, leaving my colleague as an n of 1 for at least 5, and up to 9 months. this did not seem to be a problem. finally she was on the OML to deploy as well (which would have also left them with an N of 1 but for 5-9 months instead of 1 month) but we avoided it because of my deployment. none of those scenarios seemed to cause any consternation.

the situation is young, but i think we have 3 options. one, try to have a conversation behind the rationale and see if something can be worked out (not likely but possible), two, file an official complaint (there's a UCMJ process that slips my mind at the moment) and attempt to go over the OIC's head, or three, attempt to potentially backdate my wifes REFRAD to an earlier date. the reason this is important is that she's planning on spending time with extended family in august-- which previously would have been terminal leave but now barring any changes she'll be expected to report to work.

i know this has been hashed/rehashed before, but was wondering if anyone had any advice. and also wanted to throw it out there that it's not just the navy that pulls this ****.

--your friendly neighborhood BOHICA and A and A caveman

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[d2305]

Use with caution Article 138 Complaints · GI Rights Hotline: Military Discharges and Military Counseling

 

[Clap MD]

Shocking, but not surprising. I've heard of similar terminal leave issues caused by a supervisor's personal "policies" in the AF.

 

[Vandalia]

"Use with caution" is right. Be aware that once Article 138 has been set in motion, it essentially creates an "independent prosecutor" to use a Washington DC political example. I have seen cases where an individual used the "Article 138" route and had it boomerang back in their face. Once an officer is assigned as an Article 138 investigator, he can follow any path and can investigate any misconduct he uncovers - he is not limited to only those things that are the basis of the complaint. In one case, an officer complained that his hospital commander did not recommend him for GME. It ended with the complainant facing a court martial for travel fraud.

If you go the Article 138 route, make absolutely, positively sure there are no skeletons in your closet.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Sucks but this stuff is standard. Once you've shown you are a quitter, your value is zip. In the Navy, terminal leave for separation is explicitly at the discretion of the CO. They don't have to be consistent because they can argue the situation is different. Not sure about the Army.

How much longer do you have here (will you have to walk on the scorched earth)?

Step 1: get approved with a sep date. Until that has happened, they can always hurt you more. Once you have that formally in hand, then start negotiating separation leave.

Step 2: eat it. Or ask for the exact same amount that was approved last year. have the EO officer in the room because she "feels uncomfortable" due to past interactions. If declined, appeal to the next senior officer (he or she will know that an EO related IG investigation can keep him from making flag until its resolved).

Don't raise a ruckus until she is approved to quit.

Don't offer to stay. That will just prolong the pain.

Remember, what you are really talking about is money. She loses a couple grand after taxes by selling back instead of taking leave. That's money well spent to GTFO. She should ask for a sep date that is the first day she's eligible. If you guys need cash, she can work a locums gig or two.

 

[Apollyon]

Step 2: eat it. Or ask for the exact same amount that was approved last year. have the EO officer in the room because she "feels uncomfortable" due to past interactions. If declined, appeal to the next senior officer (he or she will know that an EO related IG investigation can keep him from making flag until its resolved).

Exactly - the "kiss of death" if anything sticks.

 

[Homunculus]

"Use with caution" is right. Be aware that once Article 138 has been set in motion, it essentially creates an "independent prosecutor" to use a Washington DC political example. I have seen cases where an individual used the "Article 138" route and had it boomerang back in their face. Once an officer is assigned as an Article 138 investigator, he can follow any path and can investigate any misconduct he uncovers - he is not limited to only those things that are the basis of the complaint. In one case, an officer complained that his hospital commander did not recommend him for GME. It ended with the complainant facing a court martial for travel fraud.

If you go the Article 138 route, make absolutely, positively sure there are no skeletons in your closet.

definitely sounds like a 138 is the nuclear option. but perhaps mentioning the possibility may open our OICs eyes a little-- especially when presented with information that 2 previous docs have been allowed terminal leave that left their departments understaffed. I think it fits the category in the 138 of "arbitrary or capricious" and "materially unfair" when within the past year two other subspecialists have been allowed to leave-- and for longer periods of time and more expensive subspecialists, no less.

we're squeaky clean as far as skeletons go. except for me posting here, haha.

I'd recommend IG or congressional inquiry over article 138. 138 investigating officer would most likely come from a pool of officers that know the oic.

Is the section chief or this problem oic the approval authority for the leave?

section chief is good with it, but is being pressured by the OIC to disapprove it as an "exercise in leadership." our recommendation to our section chief (who we know/respect/are friends with) is to approve it and let the OIC deny it. we don't want him caught up in anything.

Sucks but this stuff is standard. Once you've shown you are a quitter, your value is zip. In the Navy, terminal leave for separation is explicitly at the discretion of the CO. They don't have to be consistent because they can argue the situation is different. Not sure about the Army.

How much longer do you have here (will you have to walk on the scorched earth)?

Step 1: get approved with a sep date. Until that has happened, they can always hurt you more. Once you have that formally in hand, then start negotiating separation leave.

Step 2: eat it. Or ask for the exact same amount that was approved last year. have the EO officer in the room because she "feels uncomfortable" due to past interactions. If declined, appeal to the next senior officer (he or she will know that an EO related IG investigation can keep him from making flag until its resolved).

Don't raise a ruckus until she is approved to quit.

Don't offer to stay. That will just prolong the pain.

Remember, what you are really talking about is money. She loses a couple grand after taxes by selling back instead of taking leave. That's money well spent to GTFO. She should ask for a sep date that is the first day she's eligible. If you guys need cash, she can work a locums gig or two.

no kidding. my wife became persona non grata once she dropped her REFRAD. I assume the same will happen to me. the article 138 for the army has the "arbitrary" clause which in my opinion this feels very much like it fits-- especially with recent examples to cite.

my wife has a confirmed REFRAD date of 20 Aug, which she was trying to do to throw our OIC a bone and give some july coverage to minimize the single staffing issue. that obviously didn't work. we are looking into contacting HRC to change this to 20 Jul in which case she'll just go to our OIC and say don't worry about the transitional leave anymore and drop the mic.

our OIC is stepping down in july and going back to clinical medicine for a year I assume so they can get a post-military job. they're not looking for any more promotions or a star. which is why EO or IG might be a good intermediate option but I'm not sure they'll necessarily give a ****.

as for me, when I return from deployment the OIC will be a colleague (though in a different subspecialty). will be awkward but depending if I get back in July or Nov (pending my ETP to split my current deployment getting accepted/rejected by MEDCOM) the time spent before I drop my own REFRAD will be minimal. I may get ahead of the game and with all my accumulated leave take every other week off from March until I get out in June. or maybe 4 day weekends from Jan on? my partner is retiring when I hit my ADSO which will leave us with zero of my specialty until a new graduating fellow gets here and gets credentialed. it's going to be a mess. there's no one to backfill and they think they can get a civilian contract (good luck with the quality of applicant who wants 50% call and 1099 pay) to cover the gap. best of luck to them.

we're still in phase 1-- getting official denial and rationale. our section chief is advocating for us. however I don't trust our OIC will approve it then deny it later.

will keep people posted. oh the drama.

--your friendly neighborhood as the world turns caveman

 

[Monty Python]

But Sarge ..... (may you have a happier ending than the video's).

 

[Gastrapathy]

I agree that moving her date is the best play if possible. I wouldn't even interact locally until you know the answer. Also, who is her leave approver for non-sep leave? She could take a couple weeks and just come back for a day to check out.

Hard to see from Kuwait but there is a light at the end of the tunnel for both of you now.

 

[Homunculus]

I agree that moving her date is the best play if possible. I wouldn't even interact locally until you know the answer. Also, who is her leave approver for non-sep leave? She could take a couple weeks and just come back for a day to check out.

Hard to see from Kuwait but there is a light at the end of the tunnel for both of you now.

yes, no good deed goes unpunished. should have just left 30 Jun and told them to deal with it. will make my planning easier for next summer when I likely leave. she's going back to HRC to see if she can move her dates. this requires the approval of someone higher than the OIC, who may (hopefully) not care.

her non-sep leave approval is our section chief who we are on great terms with. that's another option as well but we're assuming as OIC she could nuke that zeus thunderbolt style if they wanted to.

-- your friendly neighborhood we need to make an SDN military survival guide caveman

 

[Perrotfish]

When I hear things like this it makes me wonder, why does everyone wait for terminal to start burning their leave? I have about 3o days saved up, and I could easily just have 8 weeks off per year for my last 2 years if I used them strategically. I feel like that would be better for my mental health than one month off at th end, too.

 

[ArmyTiger]

Is it written in a policy memo that there's a different approval authority for transition leave? If not, should be the same approver as normal leave as long as there's no ptdy included. Probably one of the reasons they're leaning hard on the section chief to deny.

Usually, over 30 days requires brigade commander approval, or equivalent. Over 120, i think, requires a flag officer approval, if it's possible.

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[pgg]

When I hear things like this it makes me wonder, why does everyone wait for terminal to start burning their leave? I have about 3o days saved up, and I could easily just have 8 weeks off per year for my last 2 years if I used them strategically. I feel like that would be better for my mental health than one month off at th end, too.

That's the way to do it. If you get to the 2 year mark with 45 or 50 days on the books, you can burn a day per week and have a 3-4 day weekends every week for your last two years.

I'm 93% certain I won't have any terminal leave shenanigans of my own because I won't have any leave left to ask for.

 

[River Rat]

I'm sitting pretty at 40+ right now going into my last year of payback (not by choice....) expected 82 by my DOS. Best case scenario I get a ton of terminal leave to start residency on time, worst case scenario, I take 2 weeks off every month until I've fulfilled my duties. Pick your poison, Blue, I ain't sellin' these back.

 

[Homunculus]

When I hear things like this it makes me wonder, why does everyone wait for terminal to start burning their leave? I have about 3o days saved up, and I could easily just have 8 weeks off per year for my last 2 years if I used them strategically. I feel like that would be better for my mental health than one month off at th end, too.

in a department of N=2 or even 3 it's hard to take that much leave without screwing over your colleagues. our leave balances have always been 50's. that being said, that's my plan for next year when I likely get out. a lot of people use their transitional leave to move and get settled in to a new location. fortunately for us we don't have any major life changes hinging on this.

an important sidenote-- you have to drop your REFRAD packet at least 180 days from your anticipated date of separation. you can't just assume you're getting out in june and submit your leave paperwork in april/may. otherwise you'll be stuck until that 180 day timer is up from the date you submit. Luckily we submitted in Jan so a july out date is possible and the easiest solution to the problem.

Is it written in a policy memo that there's a different approval authority for transition leave? If not, should be the same approver as normal leave as long as there's no ptdy included. Probably one of the reasons they're leaning hard on the section chief to deny.

I think the OIC has the last word on transition leave. not completely sure. the reg states "commander or designee" which we have different people that fit that description. is that our OIC? or medical battalion CO? typically it is my section chief or ordinary leave. so many regulations are (rightfully so) addressed to the line that medical personnel are seemingly always in some gray area.

Do you mean usually as in a written policy? The AR doesn't impose this restriction.

the only thing I've found is transitional leave maxes at 60 days. can be approved by your "unit commander or designee." as such I'm sure the "designee" who is our section chief can have this status revoked. it can only be combined with pTDY if you are retiring or being involuntarily separated.

will keep people posted. I'm hoping when presented with their previous decisions they'll see why it doesn't make much sense from our point of view. but logic is often fleeting in the army.

--your friendly neighborhood too many bosses caveman

 

[d2305]

Does the Army have TAP? It will get you out of clinic for a week.

 

[colbgw02]

Does the Army have TAP? It will get you out of clinic for a week.

They do, but I think it goes by a different abbreviation now.

I got out of two days of it by producing by CV and a signed employment contract. Three days was still too much. I would have much rather have been at work in the hospital.

 

[CitizenQ]

I have seen two successful 138s. This case isn't close because transition leave is discretionary.

Your wife should put in for the transition leave. If it gets denied, she should file for leave at other times. If that gets denied, then there is an IG complaint because leave is a right, not a privilege per the Army Regulation. However, some IGs are more useful than others.

 

[Homunculus]

update: a good example of the using the bureaucracy (left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing) to your advantage. we went with option 3, attempt to move REFRAD date. I thought this had maybe a 50/50 chance, since it has to be approved by the chief of medicine and the hospital commander, who you would expect to contact the OIC of the person requesting a changed REFRAD date to make sure this was ok. well, lo and behold, they both simply signed it without any fanfare. submitted to HRC and the new date was approved. so now her REFRAD date is the original date she was wanting to start terminal leave. only downside is having leave still on the table to sell back, but all in all we'll take it.

we haven't notified our OIC of the change. we'll see how that goes. suspect it will be either "meh, whatever" or something a little more dramatic. I'd be lying if I didn't kinda want the more dramatic response >

moral of the story: if you really need to be out on a certain date, make that your REFRAD date. don't trust command to abide by previous verbal agreements. nothing new, but in this case somewhat surprising given the date was set to attempt to help the MTF out. no good deed goes unpunished.

--your friendly neighborhood fended of the BGW on this but sure more attempts are coming caveman

 

[Perrotfish]

update: a good example of the using the bureaucracy (left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing) to your advantage. we went with option 3, attempt to move REFRAD date. I thought this had maybe a 50/50 chance, since it has to be approved by the chief of medicine and the hospital commander, who you would expect to contact the OIC of the person requesting a changed REFRAD date to make sure this was ok. well, lo and behold, they both simply signed it without any fanfare. submitted to HRC and the new date was approved. so now her REFRAD date is the original date she was wanting to start terminal leave. only downside is having leave still on the table to sell back, but all in all we'll take it.

we haven't notified our OIC of the change. we'll see how that goes. suspect it will be either "meh, whatever" or something a little more dramatic. I'd be lying if I didn't kinda want the more dramatic response >

moral of the story: if you really need to be out on a certain date, make that your REFRAD date. don't trust command to abide by previous verbal agreements. nothing new, but in this case somewhat surprising given the date was set to attempt to help the MTF out. no good deed goes unpunished.

--your friendly neighborhood fended of the BGW on this but sure more attempts are coming caveman

I'm surprised you only moved the REFRAD date up to 20JUL. I would have asked to move the date to 01JUL, just on principle.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Nice work.

I'd let your OIC know via a terminal leave request. Now you might as well ask for a few weeks of terminal.

 

[Vandalia]

Youngsters come to this board to discuss the advantages/disadvantages of military medical service.

One of the advantages is that you will (or at the very least should) become expert at navigating a complicated bureaucracy. (The downside is that this expertise usually comes with a personal cost.) Trust me, that will come in handy and can become a valuable and lucrative resource in dealing with the amateur bureaucracy of "civilian medicine."

 

[Homunculus]

Nice work.

I'd let your OIC know via a terminal leave request. Now you might as well ask for a few weeks of terminal.

she gets 10 business days of administrative outprocessing so that will take up most of july when you figure in the holiday. the june schedule is already set so she'd have a hard time taking anything then. I told her from here on out just see followups only and coast out the door. I'm already formulating my strategy for next year. Is 6 months of 3 day weeks unreasonable?

--your friendly neighborhood she's on the glide path now caveman

 

[Gastrapathy]

The midweek day off is glorious. I liked it so much it changed how I structured my civilian practice.

 

[jabreal00]

the only thing I've found is transitional leave maxes at 60 days. can be approved by your "unit commander or designee." as such I'm sure the "designee" who is our section chief can have this status revoked. it can only be combined with pTDY if you are retiring or being involuntarily separated.

--your friendly neighborhood too many bosses caveman

Total dick move by your OIC. I am a bit confused at your wife's chain of command. I was Army. I got out last year. I had about 45 days of terminal leave. It was the most glorious thing ever. I stayed in the area so didn't have to move and I had a job lined up after my terminal leave was over and felt refreshed. Anyways for me, I got the section chief to approve my terminal leave on the local level. The next step it was routed to the brigade commander (06) to give final approval. The brigade commander is a non-medical guy. If your wife's section chief is the one who is her immediate supervisor and does the initial sign off, then just route that to her brigade. It's the brigade commander who gives the final say so. All of you guys fall under that command, who is a non-medical guy/gal.

Your wife won't be able to get her final separation orders (regardless of whether she has a date or not) cut until she gets her leave form done and approved. This will be needed by the S1 to process her orders. If your OIC is that much of a dick where they will meddle, then you all have to negotiate how much time she can get off whether it's weeks or days prior to her separation date.

I wouldn't try the nuclear option. It won't work. Big Army will always leave it to the discretion of the local commander. Assignments, deployments, awards and promotions in the Army has never been on merit alone. There's a lot of subjectivity.

 

[Homunculus]

finally received a response. was lukewarm, not too satisfying. however, our OIC later went to our section chief asking if it was a "done deal" or if it was just being processed-- we assume in an attempt to try to stop it. we're not *that* dumb and he told the OIC that it was already signed/approved by the MTF command and HRC.

Total dick move by your OIC. I am a bit confused at your wife's chain of command. I was Army. I got out last year. I had about 45 days of terminal leave. It was the most glorious thing ever. I stayed in the area so didn't have to move and I had a job lined up after my terminal leave was over and felt refreshed. Anyways for me, I got the section chief to approve my terminal leave on the local level. The next step it was routed to the brigade commander (06) to give final approval. The brigade commander is a non-medical guy. If your wife's section chief is the one who is her immediate supervisor and does the initial sign off, then just route that to her brigade. It's the brigade commander who gives the final say so. All of you guys fall under that command, who is a non-medical guy/gal.

we can't take leave without it being cleared by the OIC or the OIC's minion who scrubs the schedules to make sure it doesn't conflict with anything. this in particular was under high scrutiny due to my wife being half her subspecialty section.

my wife has close to 60 days-- which she'll just sell back now. it's too late to submit any leave for June and july will be mostly 10 business days of admin/outprocessing.

--your friendly neighborhood prepping for next year for myself caveman

 

[Special Delivery]

Thanks for sharing this. For the uninformed, is selling back a worse deal than getting the terminal leave?

 

[SeminoleFan3]

Thanks for sharing this. For the uninformed, is selling back a worse deal than getting the terminal leave?

You only get base pay I believe, so not BAH/BAS, etc.

 

[DD214_DOC]

Interesting thread, especially as I have less than 2 years to my ADSO and am literally an N = 1 in my subspecialty. Wonder who will get my panel of several hundred.


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[Gastrapathy]

At 2 years out, it's time to plan out using up your leave. Shoot for <14 days of terminal so they can't really hurt you. Remember to factor in the 60 days that will accrue during that period.

 

[Homunculus]

Interesting thread, especially as I have less than 2 years to my ADSO and am literally an N = 1 in my subspecialty. Wonder who will get my panel of several hundred.


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not to sound like a jaded @sshole, but where they go isn't really your problem. your command won't care. probably to the network unless they bring someone in to replace you. you consultant should replace you next summer if you're at the 2 year mark.

remember to drop your REFRAD paperwork at least 6 months prior to your ADSO date.

@Gastrapathy is correct. when i get back from this deployment I'm dropping a stack of leave to start in Dec or so-- either every fri or Monday off plus a week here and there. I'm not leaving anything to chance with transitional leave and it will at least make my last 6 months more tolerable. downside is my partner who is retiring next October is planning on something similar. should be interesting, lol

-- your friendly neighborhood full time part time caveman

 

[DD214_DOC]

not to sound like a jaded @sshole, but where they go isn't really your problem. your command won't care. probably to the network unless they bring someone in to replace you. you consultant should replace you next summer if you're at the 2 year mark.

remember to drop your REFRAD paperwork at least 6 months prior to your ADSO date.

@Gastrapathy is correct. when i get back from this deployment I'm dropping a stack of leave to start in Dec or so-- either every fri or Monday off plus a week here and there. I'm not leaving anything to chance with transitional leave and it will at least make my last 6 months more tolerable. downside is my partner who is retiring next October is planning on something similar. should be interesting, lol

-- your friendly neighborhood full time part time caveman

No, I agree it's not my problem. For the record, there is no network where I'm at. I am literally all there is within an hour drive.

Thanks for the heads up about REFRAD. No idea what it is but I'll look into it and start planning my timeline.

Now just yo figure out wtf I'm doing when I get out. Two years will go by fast.


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[Apollyon]

not to sound like a jaded @sshole, but where they go isn't really your problem. your command won't care. probably to the network unless they bring someone in to replace you. you consultant should replace you next summer if you're at the 2 year mark.

remember to drop your REFRAD paperwork at least 6 months prior to your ADSO date.

@Gastrapathy is correct. when i get back from this deployment I'm dropping a stack of leave to start in Dec or so-- either every fri or Monday off plus a week here and there. I'm not leaving anything to chance with transitional leave and it will at least make my last 6 months more tolerable. downside is my partner who is retiring next October is planning on something similar. should be interesting, lol

-- your friendly neighborhood full time part time caveman

Going ROAD! Yeah, baby!

Edit: I do not mean in ANY way that you are going to do piss poor work or become LTC ****bag. That sure ain't your style, at all.

 

[Gastrapathy]

His leadership basically fined his wife for separating. Terminal leave would have paid more than selling leave.

@Homunculus Fridays and Mondays are nice and all, but you've gotta try taking tues-wed. It's awesome.

 

[d2305]

It's funny, the Coast Guard actually has flight instructors that are retired on active duty.

 

[a1qwerty55]

His leadership basically fined his wife for separating. Terminal leave would have paid more than selling leave.

@Homunculus Fridays and Mondays are nice and all, but you've gotta try taking tues-wed. It's awesome.

I also made a weekday off part of my contract. No matter how bad you get smashed by patients having recovery day mid week is critical. As long as you hit financial targets many employers don't care how you get there.

 

[a1qwerty55]

You only get base pay I believe, so not BAH/BAS, etc.

This is correct. Much better to take two months of terminal leave and double dip.