Starting Salary

[sagat]

What is the starting salary for neurologists?

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[typhoonegator]

Depends on subspecialty, practice model, location, buildup plan, fringe benefits, referral systems, procedure load, etc. $150,000 - $400,000 plus.

 

[Thama]

The higher end of the payscale is usually reserved for undesirable jobs. In my metro area there's been a job offer out for multiple years for 500k but the call requirements are such that nobody in their right mind would ever consider taking it, and nobody has. On the other hand, there's an MS only practice (not starting salary) that's managed to get themselves enough drug money that they each make about 500-800k annually, and I have no desire to know the likely shady specifics of that deal.

 

[sagat]

Thanks for the response guys. But I'm wondering what is the typical offer for fresh neurologist out of residency with no subspecialty training. Thanks

 

[TUGM]

Probably about $150-200k depending on the specific practice model

 

[gagahaha1992]

Probably about $150-200k depending on the specific practice model

Depends on subspecialty, practice model, location, buildup plan, fringe benefits, referral systems, procedure load, etc. $150,000 - $400,000 plus.

What subspecialities lie on the lower and higher end of the spectrum?

 

[Thama]

What subspecialities lie on the lower and higher end of the spectrum?

Has less to do with subspecialty than with practice type and location. Want to do academics in California or the urban NE? 150k would be very optimistic outside of neurocritical care.

 

[Neurologo]

The higher end of the payscale is usually reserved for undesirable jobs. In my metro area there's been a job offer out for multiple years for 500k but the call requirements are such that nobody in their right mind would ever consider taking it, and nobody has.

Could you tell me what that call schedule is? I would like to see how my current call schedule compares to it. Mine is 7 days-on-7 days-off 100% inpatient with 24 hrs continuous call during the week I am on.

 

[Neurologo]

Thanks for the response guys. But I'm wondering what is the typical offer for fresh neurologist out of residency with no subspecialty training. Thanks

150k quoted above is more likely in academic settings and perhaps in a fully saturated major city where "everyone" wants to be. In private practice setting, it would be around 250k and up depending on your required work load.

In my personal view, salary in medicine has little difference in terms of "healthy reward" after about 300k. This is because of income tax and the higher demands on your time, energy, health and wellbeing. For example, the after-tax difference between 300k and 500k is only 100k. Yes, 100k may still be a lot. But to make that 100k, one has to sacrifice so much more. Is that really worth it? That is something each has to decide. This view may be limited to employed positions. The point is once the amount is reached where you can pay off the student loans and afford a reasonably comfortable living, what matters is not so much how much more you make, but how much you enjoy what you do.

 

[Thama]

Could you tell me what that call schedule is? I would like to see how my current call schedule compares to it. Mine is 7 days-on-7 days-off 100% inpatient with 24 hrs continuous call during the week I am on.

q3 overnight call (actual inpatient call, not "i might get called from home a few times" BS call) with no breaks. Utterly unsustainable.

 

[sagat]

what's the subspeciality with the highest pay and which subspeciality has the best lifestyle?

 

[TUGM]

As we keep repeating, depends on the practice model. Typically procedural specialties reimburse more. Highest starting salaries in general are for neurointervention and then critical care. There are some MS docs I know with their own infusion center that make nearly 600k a year.

As far as lifestyle, also depends on practice model. Doing full time neurophysiology in a strictly outpatient setting at an academic center where residents and fellows do the grunt work seems to be the cushiest thing I can think of right now.

 

[Acherona]

How do certain locations pay so much more than others? I'm assuming an epileptologist for example in a rural area brings in the same revenue for the same work as someone in a big city. Is the city person being underpaid and more of their revenue taken from them to support the practice/hospital? Or are the rural doctors just working that much harder for their salary?

 

[typhoonegator]

Groups/Departments/Hospitals can subsidize strategic hires with hard money if they deem it important enough.

But also, you see these vascular neurology jobs posted at regional medical centers in rural environs, for a "stroke director". Big salary, sounds great. But the catch is that you're responsible for setting up the call schedule, and they expect 24/7. You might find a few people who want to share call, but you're the safety valve. You work your buns off.

 

[Notch3]

So I'll tell you guys from my personal and co-fellow experiences and offers. Most of the private places didn't require fellowship training.

CA Academic position offers: $160 - 230K.
CA private/hospital offers: $230 - 375k. Major coastal cities more like $230-275k range. Central valley = More in the $265-375k range. One place even offered an additional $100K sign on bonus but with the stipulation you stay there for at least 10 yrs.
Tack on an additional $20-25K on average for a directorship position.

What has been previously said is generally true tho: expectations grows exponentially as the salary offer increases. Nothing is free.

Would recommend checking the MGMA pay for your region as well when it comes to negotiating pay. All I can say is money won't be an issue for most of us. =p

 

[JenniferC]

Thanks for the response guys. But I'm wondering what is the typical offer for fresh neurologist out of residency with no subspecialty training. Thanks

There is no exact answer of how much can you earn. There are more factors to keep in mind such as geographic area, work hours bonuses and benefits packages. A common fresh out of residency neurologist earns somewhere around $160.000 and $200.000 per year. This article(Neurologist Salary Guide | Healthcare Salaries Guide) says that an average neurologist from California earns around $188.560. Meanwhile, in South Dakota, the salary can go up to even $232.530 per year, but the study shows that the employment rate is pretty low in that particular area. If you want a precise answer, just go to Payscale.com and complete a salary survey.

 

[Ngo3]

Neurologist income seems to be low. Is there any way for a neurologist to earn over 300-350k with experience?

 

[oopsy]

Neurologist income seems to be low. Is there any way for a neurologist to earn over 300-350k with experience?

Not true. It's just trade-offs and sacrifices.

I routinely get recruiter emails of clinic jobs from 300-350k, literally every day (that go straight to trash). I can't remember the last one that said anything less than 300k. These are places where you're part of a very limited neurology pool (read: huge wait times to see you), working mostly 8-5 M-F, but living NOT in a place like NYC, LA, etc. They will probably expect you to be proficient in EMG/EEG because you can bill more. If you're willing to live where most of the country lives, you can easily meet and exceed that threshold. That's simply not a problem.

It's not the same earning potential as a surgeon, but you're not working like one either. Otherwise, a neurologist can bill higher amounts by doing pain, sleep, ICU, IR, or other procedural/RVU dense fields. You could be a more savvy businessperson, and coopt the infusion billing and make bank as an MS/neuro-immuno subspecialist (note: that's how oncologists command a ~400k salary in the community even though they dont rely on procedures to bill).

Again, it's just about trade-offs and choices. There's plenty of comfortable income to be made as a neurologist, you just have to be willing to make the trade-off. Your clinic will be busy, you wont be shielded by residents, and you won't be working half-days. But you'll have an objectively desirable standard of living.

 

[Ngo3]

Not true. It's just trade-offs and sacrifices.

I routinely get recruiter emails of clinic jobs from 300-350k, literally every day (that go straight to trash). I can't remember the last one that said anything less than 300k. These are places where you're part of a very limited neurology pool (read: huge wait times to see you), working mostly 8-5 M-F, but living NOT in a place like NYC, LA, etc. They will probably expect you to be proficient in EMG/EEG because you can bill more. If you're willing to live where most of the country lives, you can easily meet and exceed that threshold. That's simply not a problem.

It's not the same earning potential as a surgeon, but you're not working like one either. Otherwise, a neurologist can bill higher amounts by doing pain, sleep, ICU, IR, or other procedural/RVU dense fields. You could be a more savvy businessperson, and coopt the infusion billing and make bank as an MS/neuro-immuno subspecialist (note: that's how oncologists command a ~400k salary in the community even though they dont rely on procedures to bill).

Again, it's just about trade-offs and choices. There's plenty of comfortable income to be made as a neurologist, you just have to be willing to make the trade-off. Your clinic will be busy, you wont be shielded by residents, and you won't be working half-days. But you'll have an objectively desirable standard of living.

So if you were to live in the popular, more livable city environment, you will make about 200k? jeez

 

[mr.mkitty]

Anyone know what the pay is generally like on the north east coast like in places like in New York and Vermont?

 

[Thama]

So if you were to live in the popular, more livable city environment, you will make about 200k? jeez

Unless you have the kind of ADD addled brain that prevents you from appreciating life anywhere that isn't NYC, SF or LA, you'll do just fine financially as a neurologist. If you are one of those people then you have bigger problems than this.

 

[BrianUM]

.

 

[Notch3]

There is no exact answer of how much can you earn. There are more factors to keep in mind such as geographic area, work hours bonuses and benefits packages. A common fresh out of residency neurologist earns somewhere around $160.000 and $200.000 per year. This article(Neurologist Salary Guide | Healthcare Salaries Guide) says that an average neurologist from California earns around $188.560. Meanwhile, in South Dakota, the salary can go up to even $232.530 per year, but the study shows that the employment rate is pretty low in that particular area. If you want a precise answer, just go to Payscale.com and complete a salary survey.

First off, demand for neurology is still high at this current time. Of course, demand will always be less in saturated cities but I was still able to receive multiple interviews in CA along with multiple offers and was able to easily negotiate my salary up.

Not sure where the numbers above are coming from but again I can tell you that from my anecdotal experience, the offers I have received exceed these numbers. I'm not talking about emails with potential salaries. I'm talking about me going to interview and being presented letter of offer with $$$ in amount x 1-2 yrs followed by a minimum salary of $2--,--- with additional production bonus. My former co-residents have also had similar offers presented at places they've interviewed at on the west coast. My co-fellow is going into academics and his offers have been more in this range ($160 - 230K). One thing to remember that these salary surveys are purely based on surveys, so depending on # of replies and career setting, these numbers can be all over the place. Perhaps this scale had more ppl in academics who participated?

 

[neurochica]

So if you were to live in the popular, more livable city environment, you will make about 200k? jeez

There is a place hiring in San Fransisco that is paying more than $300,000. Granted, with that salary in SF, you are barely above poverty line if you have any med school loans.

 

[Hockeyfan23]

I will be starting my neurology residency this July and was also curious about the whole fellowship scenario. I have really no intention of going into academics or research at this point so is it really worth it to do a fellowship, especially if you are proactive during residency? Any advice from recent residency grads and/or attendings in the hiring process would be greatly appreciated.

 

[typhoonegator]

I will be starting my neurology residency this July and was also curious about the whole fellowship scenario. I have really no intention of going into academics or research at this point so is it really worth it to do a fellowship, especially if you are proactive during residency? Any advice from recent residency grads and/or attendings in the hiring process would be greatly appreciated.

Define "worth it". And define being "proactive during residency". You'd have a hard time getting credentialed for interventional pain procedures based on your proactivity during residency.

Do you want to practice at an MS Center? Headache center? Run a community stroke program? Convince your private practice colleagues to let you focus on mostly epilepsy patients? Convince insurance companies to let you bill for sleep studies? Then yeah, probably "worth it".

On the other hand, if Cruise Ship Doctor is your life goal, definitely not worth it. Or if you prioritize getting out into practice immediately because you hate hate hate training and you're so done with it you can't even. Or if your goal is to be a general neurologist (but even then, many will tell you that fellowship training expands billing opportunities).

There are a lot of fellowship experiences that are definitely not tailored to becoming a scientist or an academic. There is opportunity-cost involved because time in training is time not earning, but you're going to practice for a long time, so even a marginal increase in salary will be easily justified financially in the long run.

 

[CaliAtenza]

First off, demand for neurology is still high at this current time. Of course, demand will always be less in saturated cities but I was still able to receive multiple interviews in CA along with multiple offers and was able to easily negotiate my salary up.

Not sure where the numbers above are coming from but again I can tell you that from my anecdotal experience, the offers I have received exceed these numbers. I'm not talking about emails with potential salaries. I'm talking about me going to interview and being presented letter of offer with $$$ in amount x 1-2 yrs followed by a minimum salary of $2--,--- with additional production bonus. My former co-residents have also had similar offers presented at places they've interviewed at on the west coast. My co-fellow is going into academics and his offers have been more in this range ($160 - 230K). One thing to remember that these salary surveys are purely based on surveys, so depending on # of replies and career setting, these numbers can be all over the place. Perhaps this scale had more ppl in academics who participated?

A buddy of mine who's finishing up his PGY1 year was telling me about one of his PGY4 seniors who just accepted a general neurology position somewhere in Georgia (not sure if it was private or academic, can't remember now) with a starting salary of $300k.

 

[Neuro244]

How about a neurologist fresh out of residency working at an outpatient clinic in Los Angeles California? What would be the starting salary for that type of neurologist? How about one that has subspecialty training in sleep medicine?

 

[typhoonegator]

How about a neurologist fresh out of residency working at an outpatient clinic in Los Angeles California? What would be the starting salary for that type of neurologist? How about one that has subspecialty training in sleep medicine?

Sigh. Still so many variables that can dramatically affect the take-home salary. Private practice or hospital owned? Partner track or employee? Are you buying in up front or paying your way? How much inpatient call is your practice contracted for? If you're joining a sleep practice, do they own a sleep center? Are you going to see only sleep patients or will the clinic ask you to see general neurology 5 sessions per week? What insurance will you be accepting? Are there non-salary remunerative benefits, like loan repayment, 401K matching or annuity disbursements, payments towards practice share ownership?

I'm not being pedantic. The answers to these questions can mean the difference between $150K and $300K per year, or more.

 

[Neuro244]

1. Hospital owned
2. Employee
3. Not sure what you mean by "buying in up front or paying your way".
4. I'm looking to do mostly outpatient call. (Ideally-80% outpatient cases and 20% inpatient cases).
5. Yes if I am joining a practice, they would own a sleep center that is contracted through a hospital (i.e. Kaiser or UCLA).
6. I will see neurology patients 3 days a week and sleep patients 2 days a week and do EEG readings.
7. PPO, Medical, Blue shield. (not 100 % sure about this, but I will say the general/most commonly accepted insurances across the majority or most of practicing physicians who are specialists).
8. Yes, there will be non-salary remunerative benefits. However, I'm considering solely base salary without these benefits included.

 

[Thama]

1. Hospital owned
2. Employee
3. Not sure what you mean by "buying in up front or paying your way".
4. I'm looking to do mostly outpatient call. (Ideally-80% outpatient cases and 20% inpatient cases).
5. Yes if I am joining a practice, they would own a sleep center that is contracted through a hospital (i.e. Kaiser or UCLA).
6. I will see neurology patients 3 days a week and sleep patients 2 days a week and do EEG readings.
7. PPO, Medical, Blue shield. (not 100 % sure about this, but I will say the general/most commonly accepted insurances across the majority or most of practicing physicians who are specialists).
8. Yes, there will be non-salary remunerative benefits. However, I'm considering solely base salary without these benefits included.

It sounds like you are looking for MGMA data. This is usually a bit pricey but if you search SDN from a few years ago there was a copy of the data circa ~2014 floating around.

Other than that unless there happens to be someone in your same subspecialty, practice type and specific location (either your partners or direct competitors) posting here, there's no way to give you the specific information you are looking for.

 

[Neuro244]

I'm just looking to find out how much the average salary is for a Neurosomnologist. I've heard that for neurologists only (non-academic track), the starting salary is anywhere from 225k-300k roughly. I'm thinking by sub-specializing in sleep, I can bump it up to 300k if I start at let's say 225k as a neurologist straight out of residency. That's an additional 75k per year, and for me, 300k a year is a great starting point and is the minimum I want to make considering the debt I'll be in.