Should I even apply to any MSTP or just lower tier md/phds?

[throwawaymyname]

.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[JoaoMoutinho]

I read the wiki/faq for WAMC, but I am feeling pretty lost now with application season right around the corner and would really appreciate some insight. I was planning to apply this cycle for mostly MSTP and some stronger fully-funded md/phd programs...until I got my MCAT back this week and did much worse than expected.

here is where I stood pre-mcat:

• White / male, 2nd year out of UG (graduated 2016)

• UG = top 25 / top 5 public

• cGPA 3.88, sGPA 3.80, summa cum laude

• Research: overall no pubs, lots of time and posters.
  • 7/8 semesters in undergrad (basically all four years) + 2 of 3 summers, all the same lab, ~15 hours a week. on 2 national posters (no 1st author), 1 regional poster (2nd author). Presented honors thesis as poster (1st author), thesis talk also placed 1st among all other honors students during presentation. Got my last year/thesis funded from school grant, used some for travel to learn new methodology for thesis. 1 publication this year hopefully (not sure when and likely middle authorship).
  • Post-graduation (current): Full-time at fairly prestigious research center, 1 poster already. 1 national poster (1st author) and 2 other (middle author) and publication (again middle author probably) by end of year

• clinical volunteering: 2 different rural free clinics (~40 hours total, 20/each), ED volunteer (~10-15 hours)

• shadowing: ~20 hours peds neuro, ~40 hours radiology, ~20 hours ED department

• non clinical volunteering: ~30 hours

• teaching: I TA'd an intro neurobiology course and also assisted with another scientific workshop at my university
• LOR: 1 from UG PI, 1 from post-grad PI, 1 from advisor/prof, 1 from prof I whom I edited a textbook for (paid work and non-science textbook if that matters)

Anyway I thought I was in decent shape to at least get by foot in the door for some lower MSTP and some better fully funded md/phds. But then I scored a 513 (fairly even: 129 CP, 129 CARS, 128 Bio, 127 psych/soc) on my MCAT.

Looking online it seems that I am really far away from the median MCAT (517-519) for most schools. I really want to do an md/phd with a phd in neuro-related fields, but I have no idea where to find schools that could actually apply to? I feel that my research experience is pretty good (Both PIs said I have been one of their better/best researchers), but the MCAT is really giving me a lot of doubt.

Sorry for the long post, would love any insight people can lend, particularlly schools that could be a good match? I've heard the MSAR does not have much md/phd stats and of the programs that do post stats (Penn, NYU, TRI-I etc) are way out of my league.

Thank you all so much

IIRC U of Iowa posts their stats online and they are not nearly as competitive as any of the schools you mentioned. They are an MSTP and are a great school as far as I can tell. If you do some digging, quite a few schools do actually have average stats on their websites.

I'll let the more experienced members give advice on your chances, though I think you'll probably be okay for some of the less prestigious MSTPs and most of the fully-funded non-MSTPs.
Look at data from the AAMC here: your MCAT is less than 1 point below the mean for matriculating students.

 

[Lucca]

With your stats, if MD/PhD is the goal, it would not be a terrible idea to retake the mcat.

If you don't (understandably) want to put yourself through such an ordeal, you can still be competitive at a lot of md phd programs and potentially MSTPs. You say you want to do neuro research, so look for programs with strong research in that area that are likely to value your experience.

 

[throwawaymyname]

thank you both for the suggestions! how does this look:?

• Maryland
  
  
• Einstein
  
  
• Iowa
  
  
• Colorado
  
  
• Dartmouth
  
  
• Rochester
  
  
• Cincinnati
  
  
• Brown
  
  
• OHSU
  
  
• Wisconsin
  
  
• Medical College of Wisconsin
  
  
• BU
  
  
• Tufts
  
  
• Umass
  
  
• Mayo
  
  
• Minnesota
  
  
• UC-Davis
  
  
• UC-Irvine
  
  
• Illinois (Chicago)
  
  
• Stony Brook
  
  
• Buffalo
  
  
• Hofstra
  
  
• Robert wood Johnson medical

• VCU
  
  
• Virginia Tech
  
  
• WVU
  
  
• SUNY Downstate
  

 

[cloudstrife2054]

Most MSTP programs have double digit matriculants and I am fairly certain most MD/PhD with double-digit matriculants are MSTP and MSTP make roughly, if not half of MD-PhD matriculants. That MCAT score is great.

Also, some schools, including MSTP give secondaries to all. I contacted the director of the MSTP program of a school (I won't disclose the school name) and was told they did a retrospective study of over 100 matriculants over 7 years and found out numerical values DO NOT predict performance in MSTP programs, number of publications, or even USMLE Step 1 scores. So the school gives secondaries to everyone (meaning they review everyone in-depth) to find the non-quantifiable characteristics that they believe makes an applicant a successful physician-scientist. Also, adcoms are composed of several individuals, each with preferences of their own. In theory, one member of the adcom can even ignore stats and focus completely on the written application: essays, experiences, and letters.

As for your stats, I do believe you have the stats to make it through the pre-screening of schools that pre-screen. 513 is among the top 10%.

Also, one of the links I attached shows the lowest GPA and MCAT to matriculate. Not saying these are the same person, but it does show those with sub-standard stats, but the right attitude can make it. Everything all rides on how you can impress the adcoms at this point.

https://www.aamc.org/download/321544/data/factstableb8.pdf

https://www.aamc.org/download/321548/data/factstableb10.pdf

 

[Lucca]

Most MSTP programs have double digit matriculants and I am fairly certain most MD/PhD with double-digit matriculants are MSTP and MSTP make roughly, if not half of MD-PhD matriculants. That MCAT score is great.

Also, some schools, including MSTP give secondaries to all. I contacted the director of the MSTP program of a school (I won't disclose the school name) and was told they did a retrospective study of over 100 matriculants over 7 years and found out numerical values DO NOT predict performance in MSTP programs, number of publications, or even USMLE Step 1 scores. So the school gives secondaries to everyone (meaning they review everyone in-depth) to find the non-quantifiable characteristics that they believe makes an applicant a successful physician-scientist. Also, adcoms are composed of several individuals, each with preferences of their own. In theory, one member of the adcom can even ignore stats and focus completely on the written application: essays, experiences, and letters.

As for your stats, I do believe you have the stats to make it through the pre-screening of schools that pre-screen. 513 is among the top 10%.

Also, one of the links I attached shows the lowest GPA and MCAT to matriculate. Not saying these are the same person, but it does show those with sub-standard stats, but the right attitude can make it. Everything all rides on how you can impress the adcoms at this point.

https://www.aamc.org/download/321544/data/factstableb8.pdf

https://www.aamc.org/download/321548/data/factstableb10.pdf

A 513 is certainly a good score if you are looking at the overall testing pool. However, remember that the average for all accepted MD/PhD students was 514 for the last cycle. The average MCAT at many MSTPs is 518+.

A 513 won't make the cut at a lot of programs, but is certainly not out of the running.

I think the list OP posted above is a good starting point

 

[cloudstrife2054]

A 513 is certainly a good score if you are looking at the overall testing pool. However, remember that the average for all accepted MD/PhD students was 514 for the last cycle. The average MCAT at many MSTPs is 518+.

A 513 won't make the cut at a lot of programs, but is certainly not out of the running.

I think the list OP posted above is a good starting point

Some top tiers give secondaries to everyone, including Harvard (no Harvard was not the director I contacted, but the school I contacted was a top tier school as well). Based on my conversation with the MSTP director, apply to all schools that give secondaries to everyone regardless of your stats. What you lack for in stats, you can make up for in the written portion. These schools give secondaries/review all applications in-depth without pre-screening for a reason.

 

[throwawaymyname]

I really appreciate it everybody, I think I'm going to give it a go and hope I can show through the MCAT in my secondaries and interviews.

Are there any schools I missed that may be good to add?

 

[cloudstrife2054]

Just look at MSAR and put EVERY school that gives secondaries to everyone on your list.

 

[jesie]

If it counts for anything I met a guy at my BCM MSTP interview with a 510 on his MCAT. I'm still trying to figure out what compelled him to tell me as I certainly didn't ask or intend to share my score haha

 

[Neuronix]

Some top tiers give secondaries to everyone, including Harvard (no Harvard was not the director I contacted, but the school I contacted was a top tier school as well). Based on my conversation with the MSTP director, apply to all schools that give secondaries to everyone regardless of your stats. What you lack for in stats, you can make up for in the written portion. These schools give secondaries/review all applications in-depth without pre-screening for a reason.

This is incorrect reasoning. Schools can give secondaries to everyone but still screen based on stats.

 

[cloudstrife2054]

This is incorrect reasoning. Schools can give secondaries to everyone but still screen based on stats.

I never said stats don't matter. Adcoms have a variety of people each with their own preference. Some can look at stats only. Others can focus on the written only. It is the combined decision that decides whether or not to interview and accept you.

What I am saying is you don't know exactly how schools process applications because you don't know what their committee members prefer to look at. Some schools have pushed their adcoms to review all applications in depth and because of that, it makes sense to apply to schools that give secondaries to everyone even if your stats are substandard because you will be given a fair review just like everyone else so if your letters and written application is glowing, it might just give the push you need to get in. BCM is a school that gives secondaries to everyone and someone said they were interviewed by a 510 MCAT. This is like the lotto. You don't know what the winning numbers will be, but you still buy tickets on the chance you do get in.