SGU vs SABA & Cost

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How many lousy residencies in high crime areas?

I have to take issue with this point. A "lousy" residency is one that treats its residents like dirt while not preparing them, either practically or academically, for independent practice. Some of the best residencies out there are in cities with "high crime".

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I have to take issue with this point. A "lousy" residency is one that treats its residents like dirt while not preparing them, either practically or academically, for independent practice. Some of the best residencies out there are in cities with "high crime".
I'll defer to our wise resident colleagues on this, but it's point I've seen more than one of them make on SDN. In general the mindset is that if a program has a certain number of IMGs, it's not considered a good program. Behind this is the logic of "that's all you can get? IMGs?" Keep in mind that this elitism extends to residencies that take DOs, so I feel that sting as well.

A wise Dean once told me "if it's your first choice, then it's a good residency."
 
This is not scientific thinking. A success rate requires a numerator and denominator. Without that you have anecdote rather than evidence. Everyone accepts that some folks make it out of SGU and some from SABA. A ROI calculation for risking $300k vs $400k done honestly and not simply to stroke your psyche is not possible with the available data.

Yeah I agree with you, the numbers are not all there. It is frustrating but SGU is a a business 1st and a school second. That isn't to say they are lying. The best you can do is get your info from people who have experienced it.
 
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USMLE Step I is 3X harder than MCAT. Even COMLEX is at least twice as hard. If you cannot even get a decent score on MCAT or your undergrad classes, what make you think you will ace USMLE? Just sad to think about how you will face the truth in Caribean.

On what scale do you base that judgement? I don't believe step 1 is anywhere near 3x as hard as the MCAT. Regardless that is hugely subjective. I found the MCAT harder. It is like running distance. When you just start running, 1 mile is very hard. It becomes easier and then running 5 miles becomes hard. Saying running 5 miles is 5x as hard as running 1 isn't really an accurate perspective. Both are hard when you are at a certain level.

What you have to consider is that not everyone gives 100% on the MCAT. Having gone through SGU I discovered that many students have amazing stories. Some had to work during college and didn't have the time, others didn't quite mature fast enough, and many other circumstances that prevented their gpa / MCAT scores from reflecting their true potential. I did poorly on the MCAT and smashed step 1/2. I didn't apply myself in college and needed an opportunity...

Now that isn't to say there are many students who did work hard and do poorly in college / MCAT or continue their sub par efforts in med school. And of course the best predictor of future outcomes are past outcomes... Many people face reality that average scores and barely passing Step 1 won't land them their dream residency spot. Many people with decent B grades and decent steps in the 230's don't land surgery or quality IM programs.

That being said the board exams aren't insanely difficult. I think it is actually pretty easy to pass and the vast majority at SGU / Ross do pass. You don't have to ace them. An average score of 220 and a B GPA lands you options at many low tier residencies. I have many friends who had 220 step scores and B GPA's and are in residencies for FM, psych, peds, IM.
 
I'll defer to our wise resident colleagues on this, but it's point I've seen more than one of them make on SDN. In general the mindset is that if a program has a certain number of IMGs, it's not considered a good program. Behind this is the logic of "that's all you can get? IMGs?" Keep in mind that this elitism extends to residencies that take DOs, so I feel that sting as well.

A wise Dean once told me "if it's your first choice, then it's a good residency."

What does that have to do with your comment of bad residencies in high crime areas?

Yes that mindset exists and has truth but there are many quality IMG residency programs out there. There are many AMG university programs that are low tier as well. More important than generalizations and old stigmas are fellowship match data and real stats.
 
On what scale do you base that judgement? I don't believe step 1 is anywhere near 3x as hard as the MCAT. Regardless that is hugely subjective. I found the MCAT harder. It is like running distance. When you just start running, 1 mile is very hard. It becomes easier and then running 5 miles becomes hard. Saying running 5 miles is 5x as hard as running 1 isn't really an accurate perspective. Both are hard when you are at a certain level.

What you have to consider is that not everyone gives 100% on the MCAT. Having gone through SGU I discovered that many students have amazing stories. Some had to work during college and didn't have the time, others didn't quite mature fast enough, and many other circumstances that prevented their gpa / MCAT scores from reflecting their true potential. I did poorly on the MCAT and smashed step 1/2. I didn't apply myself in college and needed an opportunity...

Now that isn't to say there are many students who did work hard and do poorly in college / MCAT or continue their sub par efforts in med school. And of course the best predictor of future outcomes are past outcomes... Many people face reality that average scores and barely passing Step 1 won't land them their dream residency spot. Many people with decent B grades and decent steps in the 230's don't land surgery or quality IM programs.

That being said the board exams aren't insanely difficult. I think it is actually pretty easy to pass and the vast majority at SGU / Ross do pass. You don't have to ace them. An average score of 220 and a B GPA lands you options at many low tier residencies. I have many friends who had 220 step scores and B GPA's and are in residencies for FM, psych, peds, IM.


KEY THING HERE^^^^ FM and PSYCH not saying they're not good fields but make sure you're happy in them. IM and peds are excellent but probably in remote areas of the country. It can be done but you can't be picky just say that
 
I'll defer to our wise resident colleagues on this....

Somehow I don't believe you, but... your post reminded me of two things I've heard frequently from colleagues over the years...

(1) P = MD
(2) You know what they call the med student who graduates last in his class at the worst medical school in the country? Doctor.

-Skip
 
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So Skip:

As the best informed guy around, what do you estimate the likelihood of successful ACGME categorical residency placement for a student starting Day 1 today at SGU?
 
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What does that have to do with your comment of bad residencies in high crime areas?

Yes that mindset exists and has truth but there are many quality IMG residency programs out there. There are many AMG university programs that are low tier as well. More important than generalizations and old stigmas are fellowship match data and real stats.

For my specialty, fellowship match data:
85% of AMGs accepted
30% of IMGs accepted
30% of DOs accepted
 
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For my specialty, fellowship match data:
85% of AMGs accepted
30% of IMGs accepted
30% of DOs accepted

Yeah, that sounds about right. There are more AMG's at higher tier residencies and more IMG's at lower tier residencies.
 
So Skip:

As the best informed guy around, what do you estimate the likelihood of successful ACGME categorical residency placement for a student starting Day 1 today at SGU?
I'll chime in. I was at Ross from 2011-2014 and followed the numbers during my year, I presume that the Ross and SGU numbers are similar. I also presume that the match percentages today are similar seeing as the data from the NRMP and ACGME hasnt shown any significant decline in IMG match success.

For my year, the number was ~70%. 20-25% were lost to attrition, and 5-10% didn't (and likely won't) match. The vast majority of matches were in categorical positions. This idea that a hugely significant percentage of Caribbean matches are in "dead-end" prelim positions is nonsense.
 
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I would hardly call myself the "best informed guy around", but thank you for the compliment... if it wasn't meant as a backhanded tongue-in-cheek one.

My experience and impression is similar to the argus and what he notes. I was there 2001-2005 and, if anything, Ross has increased it's infrastructure at the school. Yes, they are "for profit" and a business. That is part-and-parcel to the experience. The "product" they are delivering is a medical education. If anything, this has been an evolving trend in "healthcare as a business" which has been increasing exponentially even since I started practice. If that is the fault you find with these schools, then you must equally find fault with the entire system. If anything, these schools (DeVry, etc.) may even be considered "technology disrupters" and have been leaders in this trend... right, wrong, or indifferent.

My biggest complaint when I was there is that the schools were like the ugly little sister (i.e., so desperate for dates, they would go out with anyone who asked). There were co-students in my (and other) classes who clearly should never have been there to begin with. And, of course they failed out (and/or were never seen again for whatever reason). I think the schools have tried to address this with MERPs and whatever-else-you-call-it premed programs. (My feelings is why add insult to injury. Why extend the race? You're either going to the Caribbean as a last resort - and you should get in right away - or, you should rethink your entire prospects for a career in medicine. If I had been 'MERP'd', or whatever, I promise you I would be doing something else with my life right now.)

However, the majority of students who make it off the island(s) end up with a viable career. The "weeding out", if you will, occurs in the pre-clinical phase. If you pass the Steps, get your clerkships done, and graduate, you are likely to find residency. Then, the rest is up to you. This notion that you are "doomed" if you choose this path and will be saddled with lifelong debt is not common. You will have debt if you go an fail. You can't absolve that debt. Everyone needs to know that going in.

Other than that, the Caribbean is still a viable pathway that delivers. People who see it as a dead-end fraught with certain disaster are nothing more than fear-mongerers who have some deep-seated, and maybe not even fully self-realized, negative agenda to serve. They see a Caribbean-educated doctor, as I have heard some put it, as a "fake" doctor or "not really a doctor" or whatever. I've worked with enough U.S. medical students, residents, and attending physicians to know that those who survive the Caribbean, and their residency, to go onto to get a license are every bit as competent as the next guy/gal. And, that's all that matters: surviving and thriving.

-Skip
 
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This is not scientific thinking. A success rate requires a numerator and denominator. Without that you have anecdote rather than evidence. Everyone accepts that some folks make it out of SGU and some from SABA. A ROI calculation for risking $300k vs $400k done honestly and not simply to stroke your psyche is not possible with the available data.

There's also a reason why every US MD schools has publicly available stats on their class size and match list but the Carib is this weird black hole of information. There's really no reason for it unless they're trying to hide something
 
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There's also a reason why every US MD schools has publicly available stats on their class size and match list but the Carib is this weird black hole of information. There's really no reason for it unless they're trying to hide something

US schools are non profit and have the "creme" of students. SGU / Ross are for profit and have the bottom tier. That should answer your question.

That being said you can find starting class sizes and match lists for SGU / Ross. You are right, they don't explicitly state the attrition is ~30% (what I would say based on my experience). That was scary when I started at SGU but after my time there I realized that the majority drop out in term 1. Solution is to contact a student or graduate.
 
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US schools are non profit and have the "creme" of students. SGU / Ross are for profit and have the bottom tier. That should answer your question.

That being said you can find starting class sizes and match lists for SGU / Ross. You are right, they don't explicitly state the attrition is ~30% (what I would say based on my experience). That was scary when I started at SGU but after my time there I realized that the majority drop out in term 1. Solution is to contact a student or graduate.

Except for the fact that Rocky Vista, is slaughtering every DO school in the country with their COMLEX pass rates and match list. However, I agree with everything else.
 
Except for the fact that Rocky Vista, is slaughtering every DO school in the country with their COMLEX pass rates and match list. However, I agree with everything else.

If I'm correct though don't they also only accept like MD level MCAT scores...hence why they blow the COMLEX out too?
 
If I'm correct though don't they also only accept like MD level MCAT scores...hence why they blow the COMLEX out too?

Same could be said for Touro CA and NY (and I believe MCAT averages are higher than Rocky Vista), but their COMLEX pass rates are closer to the mean.

COMLEX Level 1 First Time Pass Rates - 2012-2016

There is something to be said about Rocky Vista's curriculum...
 
US schools are non profit...

This is completely irrelevant... and not necessarily true. Just because a school/hospital system is "non-profit" doesn't mean that it doesn't try to achieve a positive operating margin (which is what non-profits call their "profit", which is given out in the form of bonuses to executives, expanding services lines to capture marketshare and create service monopolies, etc.).

In other words, this is an extremely naive way to look at things and should have zero factor in anyone's decision whether or not to attend a school, residency, job, etc.

The Nonprofit Scam - Authentic Medicine

-Skip
 
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This is completely irrelevant... and not necessarily true. Just because a school/hospital system is "non-profit" doesn't mean that it doesn't try to achieve a positive operating margin (which is what non-profits call their "profit", which is given out in the form of bonuses to executives, expanding services lines to capture marketshare and create service monopolies, etc.).

In other words, this is an extremely naive way to look at things and should have zero factor in anyone's decision whether or not to attend a school, residency, job, etc.

The Nonprofit Scam - Authentic Medicine.

-Skip

Of course. The world revolves around money but I wasn't trying to give that as a reason behind making a decision at all.
 
Also an outlier. There seems to be a lot of us these day; mucking up your "tales of woe"
The point here isn't that there are successful Carib grads. The point is how many additional obstacles to success one faces by going to a Carib school.

Successful SDNers should always be applauded, but they should not try to affirm their risky choices as being wise ones, or universally applicable. I know Lotto winners, but it's a poor strategy for retirement planning.
 
The point here isn't that there are successful Carib grads. The point is how many additional obstacles to success one faces by going to a Carib school.

Successful SDNers should always be applauded, but they should not try to affirm their risky choices as being wise ones, or universally applicable. I know Lotto winners, but it's a poor strategy for retirement planning.

The less you are prepared, the greater the gamble. Otherwise, yours is a poor analogy.

Matriculants at the long-established reputable Carib schools have far better odds than black or red on the roulette wheel. And, those who do fail usually have themselves to blame. To argue otherwise is disingenuous.

-Skip
 
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Obviously an old thread, but I thought I would add my two cents after about a decade away from this board. I am on the other side, having completed Saba several years back, finished my first choice residency (Family Medicine, obtained through the Match) and licensed and practicing medicine. I consider Saba a good choice due to reputation, cost and class size. I do not feel like they tried to "eliminate" me. True, some people dropped out or flunked out, but I found that the school generally tried to help those who were suited for a medical career. The difference with a Caribbean school is that they essentially take on all comers. You have a chance to find out for yourself if you are motivated enough to complete the program after you are admitted. US schools weed out applicants before they start. I visited the islands prior to applying (except Granada. I did not apply to SGU). I found Saba to be quieter, cheaper and somewhat safer. It's a good place for a family. Don't let the island sway your decision too much though (Dominica is beautiful but a little rough, St. Maarten is one of my favorite places, but you have to watch your back all the time), because you won't be on an island very long. Check to see where your clinical rotations might be. I know folks who transferred schools just for clinicals. I thinks it's probably better to stay in one school. The cost difference between SGU and Saba is pretty big. That's one of the reasons I didn't even apply to SGU. It's a fine school but very costly. $100,000 is a pretty big difference, even if you're making a Physcian's salary. If you want to do FM or IM (the start for a lot of specialties) Saba will get you there. I have classmates who also matched in Surgery, Neurology, Psychiatry, ObGyn and Radiology to name a few.

Bottom line : Try your best to get into a US school. MD or DO. If you can't, go to the islands and check the schools out. Talk to grads. Talk to residents. Talk to me if you want. If you think you still want to be a Doctor, go IMG. Understand that nothing is for sure until you have a medical license in your hand. No matter where you go to school.

Best Wishes,
PracticingGuy
 
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People falsely believe that they will be ok if they work hard and "get good grades" but they do not realize that the big 4 schools grade on a curve and rank students. it doesn't matter if you get straight A's- if everyone else does too (or at least enough other people), you can still fail due to grade deflation. The attrition rate at SGU/AUC/Ross/ETC is 60-80% from start to finish (this data is publicly available on the NRMP website or you can do the math your self by looking at the huge class sizes vs the graduating class sizes). The program is Designed for most students to fail.
 
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I'll leave the direct stats to the wise @gonnif, but ay Carumba! I get my numbers right here from Carib apologists, such as yourself, who have stated that their classes have started with X students. When asked what % have dropped out or been dismissed, the numbers are usually 20-40%. And, Skip, you were asked above the same question, and evaded it.

Next we have to look at how many students these schools take in, and how many rotation spots they have. It's NOT the 1:1 mandated by COCA or LCME. Hence, the nefarious business is to get rid the weakest students.

Then we get to the nitty-gritty of how many of the survivors actually make it to the match. What we see from NRMP is that it's in the 50-80% range.

And what are those matches? How many Prelimary? How many lousy residencies in high crime areas?

This is what we object to. These schools sell a dream, but it's a lie.
Why are you so bitter and so negative, goro?!
Were you by any chance turned down for a faculty position by those ‘damn’ Carib schools? ... or dumped by a ‘damn’ Carib school graduate? ... or you just hate the fact that the US physician shortage is undermined by the inflow of those ‘damn’ Carib MD’s?

Why don’t you instead, address the [US] medical education internal issues that allows for the existence and the undeniable high demand for such schools?
I’ll only agree with the part that one needs to consider the US schools FIRST; and accept most of the facts you point to. However, I categorically dismiss/despise the spirit of your arguments/motives!

As an outlier applicant, I’ll be thankful to whichever medical institution ‘catches’ me; then, it will be mostly up to me - don’t you agree, goro?
 
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Why are you so bitter and so negative, goro?!
Were you by any chance turned down for a faculty position by those ‘damn’ Carib schools? ... or dumped by a ‘damn’ Carib school graduate? ... or you just hate the fact that the US physician shortage is undermined by the inflow of those ‘damn’ Carib MD’s?

Why don’t you instead, address the [US] medical education internal issues that allows for the existence and the undeniable high demand for such schools?
I’ll only agree with the part that one needs to consider the US schools FIRST; and accept most of the facts you point to. However, I categorically dismiss/despise the spirit of your arguments/motives!

As an outlier applicant, I’ll be thankful to whichever medical institution ‘catches’ me; then, it will be mostly up to me - don’t you agree, goro/faculty?
Bitter? Hardly. I simply dislike seeing desperate and gullible people being fleeced by criminal enterprises.

Have fun driving for Uber, since that's more likely than you ever being a doctor.
 
Bitter? Hardly. I simply dislike seeing desperate and gullible people being fleeced by criminal enterprises.

Have fun driving for Uber, since that's more likely than you ever being a doctor.
I agree with the first statement... especially after reading and realizing your great and invaluable contribution to the site and to thousands of prospective med students - I respect you for that!

At the same time, your last statement is so disappointing - for making a baseless prediction (or maybe you misunderstood the meaning of me being an ‘outlier’...?), and for not being in-the-know: In 4 years, Uber will offer only driverless cars, goro.
 
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I agree with the first statement... especially after reading and realizing your great and invaluable contribution to the site and to thousands of prospective med students - I respect you for that!

At the same time, your last statement is so disappointing - for making a baseless prediction (or maybe you misunderstood the meaning of me being an ‘outlier’...?), and for not being in-the-know: In 4 years, Uber will offer only driverless cars, goro/faculty!
Sorry to be so harsh...it's the NYer in me, but I'm simply trying to educate you on the odds facing matriculants to Carib schools. Much better to take the time to improve your app and go for MD/DO . There are schools that reward reinvention.
 
Sorry to be so harsh...it's the NYer in me, but I'm simply trying to educate you on the odds facing matriculants to Carib schools. Much better to take the time to improve your app and go for MD/DO . There are schools that reward reinvention.
No hard feelings whatsoever; and thanks!
I drove a yellow cab in NYC while in college... a decade+ back...
 
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