SGU or UQ-Ochsner

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CAnola1990

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Hi all, I have spent the last two years navigating my way through state-side med school applications in the US, have been on waitlists for a while and with no luck state-side I am considering the IMG route now. I have been accepted to SGU and UQ-Ochsner now for the upcoming academic year. I know SGU carries the stigma of a Caribbean school while UQ-Ochsner at least is gaining reputation with every graduating class. At the same time, my goal is to return to NYC to an EM residency. What steers me away from SGU more than anything else is the attrition and enormous class size, at the same time they are affiliated with some great hospitals in NYC (one of which I hope to do my residency in). I am at a serious crossroads, deep down I was hoping for this acceptance, now I dunno, I am weighing my options and hopes for my future 4 years from now. Sorry for the rant, I guess what I am asking is despite the vast difference in attrition between the two schools, knowing that I would like to eventually return to NYC (specifically for EM), if not during residency, then definitely during my career after residency, does UQ-Ochsner afford me that much better of an opportunity than SGU?

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I'm a USIMG at USyd, but I have friends at Ochsner. Class size at Ochsner isn't great either and you'll have to teach yourself a lot of stuff for Step 1--biochemistry, microbiology, pharmacology, etc.--that Australian schools simply don't teach. You will also lose access to Australian internships as backup since Ochsner students are exempted. Finally, if NY is your goal, Ochsner might be a no-go to begin with, since NY has the 12-week rule for overseas rotations. Google that and read it carefully.

For me, it was between the US and Australia. I didn't research match outcomes carefully enough. I thought I'd rather have the adventure.

I LOVE USyd. I'm happy with being in Australia. I will probably match well, and I'll probably have an Australian spot as backup. BUT, given all the heartache and pain, I would've stayed in the US. Good luck.
 
I'm a USIMG at USyd, but I have friends at Ochsner. Class size at Ochsner isn't great either and you'll have to teach yourself a lot of stuff for Step 1--biochemistry, microbiology, pharmacology, etc.--that Australian schools simply don't teach. You will also lose access to Australian internships as backup since Ochsner students are exempted. Finally, if NY is your goal, Ochsner might be a no-go to begin with, since NY has the 12-week rule for overseas rotations. Google that and read it carefully.

For me, it was between the US and Australia. I didn't research match outcomes carefully enough. I thought I'd rather have the adventure.

I LOVE USyd. I'm happy with being in Australia. I will probably match well, and I'll probably have an Australian spot as backup. BUT, given all the heartache and pain, I would've stayed in the US. Good luck.

Doing my residency in NY is a goal but I would be just as happy doing it around NYC like Boston or Philly and then just moving back to NY after residency. The NYS clause concerning the overseas rotations is a bit confusing though. I've read it before and they include a list of overseas schools (mainly in the Caribbean) that are exempt from the rule. UQ-Ochsner isn't on the list but they have matched a student to SUNY-Downstate's Anesthesiology program 2 years ago. I also don't see Sackler on the list but I know for a fact that Sackler grads have tremendous success matching in NYC especially among some of the super prestigious Manhattan hospitals. The whole thing is very confusing. Oh and yeah I know the UQ class size isn't great either but the Ochsner cohort is only around 120, at SGU its something like 800+/semester (2x a year). But SGU does seem to have some advantages, closer to the US, curriculum geared toward Step 1, probably cheaper when cost of living is factored in, and a strong history in NY. That attrition though.
 
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I'm a USIMG at USyd, but I have friends at Ochsner. Class size at Ochsner isn't great either and you'll have to teach yourself a lot of stuff for Step 1--biochemistry, microbiology, pharmacology, etc.--that Australian schools simply don't teach. You will also lose access to Australian internships as backup since Ochsner students are exempted. Finally, if NY is your goal, Ochsner might be a no-go to begin with, since NY has the 12-week rule for overseas rotations. Google that and read it carefully.

For me, it was between the US and Australia. I didn't research match outcomes carefully enough. I thought I'd rather have the adventure.

I LOVE USyd. I'm happy with being in Australia. I will probably match well, and I'll probably have an Australian spot as backup. BUT, given all the heartache and pain, I would've stayed in the US. Good luck.

What was the application process for Usyd like for you? Were they as lenient with the admission requirements as Oschner? How did you explain why you wanted to go there
 
What was the application process for Usyd like for you? Were they as lenient with the admission requirements as Oschner? How did you explain why you wanted to go there

Straightforward. I took the GAMSAT instead of the MCAT (which you can't do anymore) and scored above the CSP threshold. I went to USyd for family reasons, money (I had an independent scholarship), and adventure. I'm 50/50 about doing it over. Still, no regrets.
 
Hey EMhopeful, came over here from the Ochsner thread. I'm sure you could apply to a bunch of residencies in NY but, since there are no guarantees on match day, it might make sense to apply broadly in your field of interest. I'm not completely certain on the match details but it might be possible that you get placed into your second or third choice of specialty. Is the location more important than the specialty? Don't take my word at face value, I am no expert on the match process.

Worse case scenario you can always go to NY after residency, right? I've always been told that med students often change their mind about what field they want to go into, although it sounds like you are dead set on EM. But it would suck to make a decision now for a reason you don't care for later. I think UQ has better research opportunity, but I am UQ biased. Up to you though, at the end of the day you will have to live with the decision. Be hesitant to take advice from people who don't have to live with the consequences...
 
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Hey EMhopeful, came over here from the Ochsner thread. I'm sure you could apply to a bunch of residencies in NY but, since there are no guarantees on match day, it might make sense to apply broadly in your field of interest. I'm not completely certain on the match details but it might be possible that you get placed into your second or third choice of specialty. Is the location more important than the specialty? Don't take my word at face value, I am no expert on the match process.

Worse case scenario you can always go to NY after residency, right? I've always been told that med students often change their mind about what field they want to go into, although it sounds like you are dead set on EM. But it would suck to make a decision now for a reason you don't care for later. I think UQ has better research opportunity, but I am UQ biased. Up to you though, at the end of the day you will have to live with the decision. Be hesitant to take advice from people who don't have to live with the consequences...

Um... I'm 99% sure that you can't even apply to NY after Oschner. Google the NY 12-Week Elective rule. Please let me know if you know otherwise.
 
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Um... I'm 99% sure that you can't even apply to NY after Oschner. Google the NY 12-Week Elective rule. Please let me know if you know otherwise.

I just got accepted into UQ-Ochsner's program and I've been researching the same thing... From what I've gathered, that clause about NY licensing should not apply to UQ-Ochsner's program. Ochsner technically has a mobile campus for UQ on their campus grounds so you're not really doing rotations away from UQ. I have physically visited Ochsner and have seen UQ-Ochsner's building in New Orleans, LA. It's the unique advantage their partnership.
 
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I just got accepted into UQ-Ochsner's program and I've been researching the same thing... From what I've gathered, that clause about NY licensing should not apply to UQ-Ochsner's program. Ochsner technically has a mobile campus for UQ on their campus grounds so you're not really doing rotations away from UQ. I have physically visited Ochsner and have seen UQ-Ochsner's building in New Orleans, LA. It's the unique advantage their partnership.

I don't disbelieve you, but can you cite any sources? I've known a few people burned by this issue (not at UQ though).
 
I don't disbelieve you, but can you cite any sources? I've known a few people burned by this issue (not at UQ though).

Let me clarify a point first. Ochsner is one of UQ's clinical schools which makes this partnership very unique. I would argue that if it was a school/hospital outside UQ-Ochsner, then this clause would apply.

Refer to this page where arguments go back and forth for and against the statement that "UQ-Ochsner grads can apply to all 50 states"

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...c-program-recognized-by-all-50-states.881074/

What gives credibility to the "pro UQ-Ochsner" standpoint is that the person describing the partnership is the Academic Officer for the Ochsner Student Medical Association. After you read the arguments on that page, refer to this link:

http://www.mbc.ca.gov/Applicants/Medical_Schools/Schools_Recognized.aspx

They weren't initially recognized by California, but now they are recognized. They are doing what needs to be done. In 2014, they had a graduate match at SUNY HSC Brooklyn:

http://www.mededpath.org/residency_match.html

Whatever is happening with New York, definitely depends on the program you're applying to and I am certain that they will try to put an end to this issue soon. If there's any disadvantage to this program (or any other international program for that matter) it is that you have to walk the extra mile and rock your USMLE's because that's ultimately what represents the extent of your preparation for residency.

I hope this is somewhat helpful. I am excited about this program and I have a good degree of clarity of pros and challenges that we (us applicants) will be up against.
 
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Let me clarify a point first. Ochsner is one of UQ's clinical schools which makes this partnership very unique. I would argue that if it was a school/hospital outside UQ-Ochsner, then this clause would apply.

Refer to this page where arguments go back and forth for and against the statement that "UQ-Ochsner grads can apply to all 50 states"

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...c-program-recognized-by-all-50-states.881074/

What gives credibility to the "pro UQ-Ochsner" standpoint is that the person describing the partnership is the Academic Officer for the Ochsner Student Medical Association. After you read the arguments on that page, refer to this link:

http://www.mbc.ca.gov/Applicants/Medical_Schools/Schools_Recognized.aspx

They weren't initially recognized by California, but now they are recognized. They are doing what needs to be done. In 2014, they had a graduate match at SUNY HSC Brooklyn:

http://www.mededpath.org/residency_match.html

Whatever is happening with New York, definitely depends on the program you're applying to and I am certain that they will try to put an end to this issue soon. If there's any disadvantage to this program (or any other international program for that matter) it is that you have to walk the extra mile and rock your USMLE's because that's ultimately what represents the extent of your preparation for residency.

I hope this is somewhat helpful. I am excited about this program and I have a good degree of clarity of pros and challenges that we (us applicants) will be up against.

This is from another Ochsner student in 2014. Has this issue been clarified? (Again, I don't mean to challenge, but I have friends at another Australian school being burned by this very issue and am hoping to get to the bottom of it--I appreciate your help.) To my knowledge, Ochsner has not been added to the list of exempt schools.

http://medclerkships.com/new-york-states-12-week-clerkship-rule-explained/

NY:
Much more complicated. This stems from the "12 week rule" which was entirely designed to prevent the for-profit Caribs from usurping spots for NY students. Basically they made it so that you had to be on their "The List" so that random places couldn't just pay boatloads of money to hospitals in NY to guarantee rotating spots and displace NY med students (which was happening). Once again from a purely technical and legal standpoint this shouldn't affect UQO since Ochsner is a clinical school under UQ's AMC accreditation making it sort of like an embassy. Anyways, apparently NY decided that we do actually violate the "12 week rule" and that we would need approval there as well. The process has been under way with Ochsner putting a $40kUSD downpayment for the process. The weird thing is that in NY this process is not handled by the NY medical board but by the NY Dept of Education (which I found really strange when I learned about that). Of course there is a position that is in charge of such things. Things were progressing nominally until sometime around late summer of last year, when the person who was in that position left it for another job. The last I heard (Sept/Oct 2013) the position had been empty for a couple of months and nobody from the NY Dept of Education had been responding to inquiries from UQO. Once again, just like CA there is absolutely no reason to believe that the UQO stream wouldn't be approved and put on the list, it is just a matter of when and getting through the paperwork. I do not know the specific of the process like I do the CA process, nor do I know what progress has been made since Oct of last year. At that time it was guesstimated that there would be about another 12-18 months before it was all buttoned up, but that was just a rough guess. And, of course, it depended on someone being in that job title to actually do it.

So for people in the year behind me NY may not be an option. The year behind is a decent chance, and anyone currently in Year 1 or 2 (or not yet started the program) will most likely be fine.

NY is a definite no go for at least 1 more year, possibly more, but maybe less and I have not been up to speed on that since Oct of 2013.
 
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Hey y'all -

Regarding the NY thing...

First let me caveat very heavily that I am very out of the loop on this after 2 years of residency. That said, to my understanding NY still has not put UQO on the list though I really have no idea what the hold up is. I stand behind everything I said back in 2014, but it seems I really have to recalibrate my estimation of time frames for bureaucracies. It certainly burned me for Cali (though to be honest I think things worked out incredibly well for both me and my fiance as a result of how things did turn out).

I'm pretty sure you could actually apply and even possibly get a spot, because UQ has been on the list and it may fly under the radar (it almost did for me when I applied to CA back in the day, but I got "found out" by a comedy of errors leading the MBC analyst to call me and ask to clarify), but it would obviously not be a kosher deal and you could get really burnt if you try so I would certainly not advise it.

In any case, last I hear sometime last year things had not moved forward. If anyone has any info otherwise I'd love to see it, because I'd be surprised it flew under my radar.
 
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Hey y'all -

Regarding the NY thing...

First let me caveat very heavily that I am very out of the loop on this after 2 years of residency. That said, to my understanding NY still has not put UQO on the list though I really have no idea what the hold up is. I stand behind everything I said back in 2014, but it seems I really have to recalibrate my estimation of time frames for bureaucracies. It certainly burned me for Cali (though to be honest I think things worked out incredibly well for both me and my fiance as a result of how things did turn out).

I'm pretty sure you could actually apply and even possibly get a spot, because UQ has been on the list and it may fly under the radar (it almost did for me when I applied to CA back in the day, but I got "found out" by a comedy of errors leading the MBC analyst to call me and ask to clarify), but it would obviously not be a kosher deal and you could get really burnt if you try so I would certainly not advise it.

In any case, last I hear sometime last year things had not moved forward. If anyone has any info otherwise I'd love to see it, because I'd be surprised it flew under my radar.

Man... a million props for responding to that necro-quote!
 
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Man... a million props for responding to that necro-quote!

I have contacted mededpath about this hickup and I found out that they scheduled a site visit with the NY Medical Board for later this year to get on their exempt list. If you guys are really concerned about NY residency possibilities for this program, contact them and ask when they expect to have it resolved.
 
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Man... a million props for responding to that necro-quote!

Yeah, sorry... I try and be at least somewhat haunt these parts but my life has been beyond insanely hectic for the last few months so I simply haven't had time.

In any case, by honestly random chance, I had a meeting with one of the top faculty today (about something entirely not related to the UQ program and planned before I came here and commented) and I decided to ask. @DocWannaBe2012 is correct: there is a scheduled site visit with the NY folks.

Apparently they decided they wanted to do a site visit in Brisbane (the MBC did their site visit at Ochsner) and everything is all set up for.. ah crap I'm blanking on exactly but it was somewhere in October-ish. The board meets every month and so the hopefully anticipated course is that site visit happens in Oct, they have a meeting in Nov, they approve the program in Dec, and then by Jan everything is copacetic. So at least hypothetically this year's graduating class could be able to match into NY for next year. I say hypothetically because I watched how the MBC handled their stuff and was astounded at the alacrity with which they were able to drag their feet. So I would assume the same for NY (and this faculty member told me that NY has proven to be even more of a headache than CA, which surprised both of us so who the hell knows).

All that said, it would likely be difficult for the current graduating class to match in NY for next year since even the best case timeframe puts the decision at literally just a month-ish before rank order list submission. Speaking from experience that makes it very tough. However, I would count it out for graduates who are highly motivated to go to NY.

But the good news is that it seems nearly a fait accompli that for next year's graduating class NY should no longer be an issue. Though I wouldn't be surprised if those pencil pushers managed to find a way to drag it on long enough to make me eat my words.

Anyways, hope that helps!

Edit - Sorry, realized there was a typo where I forgot a word. Above should read "however I would not count it out for graduates highly motivated to go to NY. And to expound on that a bit, for this year those who really want to go to NY should basically apply and push hard, inform programs of what is going on and ask for interviews and then if all goes well things get approved and they can match there. The problem is that many programs don't want to waste interview spots if they believe there is a chance that the candidate will simply not be able to match there because of licensing stuff. Obviously this will vary depending on program (and some may not even be aware of the issues, though I think most of them are by now... I've seen NY program directors posting around these parts and elsewhere commenting to that effect) and I think moreseo depending on the number of interview spots they offer. For a medicine program that interviews 2-400 people, having a few interviewees from our pool won't make any real difference. But for say, an ortho program that only offers a total of 50 interviews, that would be a potentially big issue for them they would be unlikely to be willing to risk.
 
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Yeah, sorry... I try and be at least somewhat haunt these parts but my life has been beyond insanely hectic for the last few months so I simply haven't had time.

In any case, by honestly random chance, I had a meeting with one of the top faculty today (about something entirely not related to the UQ program and planned before I came here and commented) and I decided to ask. @DocWannaBe2012 is correct: there is a scheduled site visit with the NY folks.

Apparently they decided they wanted to do a site visit in Brisbane (the MBC did their site visit at Ochsner) and everything is all set up for.. ah crap I'm blanking on exactly but it was somewhere in October-ish. The board meets every month and so the hopefully anticipated course is that site visit happens in Oct, they have a meeting in Nov, they approve the program in Dec, and then by Jan everything is copacetic. So at least hypothetically this year's graduating class could be able to match into NY for next year. I say hypothetically because I watched how the MBC handled their stuff and was astounded at the alacrity with which they were able to drag their feet. So I would assume the same for NY (and this faculty member told me that NY has proven to be even more of a headache than CA, which surprised both of us so who the hell knows).

.

You found out about it before the student body did. :(

New York Site Visit Confirmed
Posted on: Saturday, 2 July 2016 6:35:35 AM AEST

Dear Students,

We are happy to announce that the University of Queensland School of Medicine (UQ SOM) Site Visit by the New York State Education Department (NYSED) has been confirmed. The NYSED will be visiting UQ SOM October 1-8, 2016. As more details evolve pertaining to the actual site visit and subsequent outcome deliverables we will keep you abreast of those developments.

https://medicine.uq.edu.au/uq-ochsner-md-program
 
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Shoulda gone to bone wizard school. Now instead you're rolling the dice overseas and very likely to graduate into a residency nightmare scenario. Between the two, I'd say SGU. Neither is a fantastic option these days though.
 
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Shoulda gone to bone wizard school. Now instead you're rolling the dice overseas and very likely to graduate into a residency nightmare scenario. Between the two, I'd say SGU. Neither is a fantastic option these days though.

Best decision I ever made.

I'm competitive for the US and have an Australian residency as a "fall-back"--still deciding. The residency confers Aussie citizenship after 2 years, which entails free healthcare for life, a generous pension, and 40-hour work weeks with paid overtime. Zero double-taxation. Plus US loan repayment is based on AGI, which excludes a massive portion of foreign income, so there are people paying back bupkas while pulling $100,000+ as a PGY-1. Oh, and people here swipe their Medicare cards, not their credit cards at the doctor's office.

On top of all that, FRACGP (Australian GP fellowship) transfers to the US and Canada, so there's always a route back. Every international student at my school (not OPs) got an Australian job if they wanted one.

It's not for everybody. But it's definitely for some.
 
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Took a scholarship to an Australian medical school over an American one. Best decision I ever made.

Now I'm competitive for the US and have an Australian residency as a "fall-back"--still deciding. The residency confers Aussie citizenship after 2 years, which entails free healthcare for life, a generous pension, and 40-hour work weeks with paid overtime. Zero double-taxation. Plus US loan repayment is based on AGI, which excludes a massive portion of foreign income, so there are people paying back bupkas while pulling $100,000+ as a PGY-1. Oh, and people here swipe their Medicare cards, not their credit cards at the doctor's office. It's a more compassionate system.

On top of all that, FRACGP (Australian GP fellowship) transfers to the US and Canada, so there's always a route back. Every international student at my school (not OPs) got an Australian job if they wanted one.

It's not for everybody. But it's definitely for some.
Oschner isn't most Australian schools. There are some I would say are fine choices (such as Sydney). But for a person wanting to come back to the states in 2021? Oschner is a poor choice compared to the DO route. The residency situation is going to be much closer to parity by then, things are going to be ugly.
 
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Oschner isn't most Australian schools. There are some I would say are fine choices (such as Sydney). But for a person wanting to come back to the states in 2021? Oschner is a poor choice compared to the DO route. The residency situation is going to be much closer to parity by then, things are going to be ugly.

Fair point. That's why I've previously recommend against Ochsner except for those most committed to going back.
 
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This is from another Ochsner student in 2014. Has this issue been clarified? (Again, I don't mean to challenge, but I have friends at another Australian school being burned by this very issue and am hoping to get to the bottom of it--I appreciate your help.) To my knowledge, Ochsner has not been added to the list of exempt schools.

http://medclerkships.com/new-york-states-12-week-clerkship-rule-explained/
The NY 12 weeks rule is being way over-simplified in this thread. There is no such thing as being exempt vs not-exempt.

New York limits the number of weeks a foreign medical student can rotate at non-affiliated hospitals. The way the Caribbean schools get around this is a formal affiliation between the medical school and hospitals in the eyes of the NY State Medical Board. Each individual medical school has a unique list of hospitals that they are "affiliated" with at which their students can do unlimited rotations not subject to the 12 week rule. When coming from one of these schools, the IMG will get a letter prior to their first rotation in NY that lists the hospitals that their school is affiliated with. Coming from Ross I did 46 weeks of rotations in NY, 34 of which at hospitals that were affiliated with Ross (in the eyes of the NYS Medical Board), and 12 at non-affiliated hospitals.

As an IMG, you are not allowed to do >12 weeks of clinical rotations physically located in New York state in hospitals not affiliated with your school. You can do as many weeks of non-affiliated rotations as you want anywhere else in the US, just no more than 12 can be in New York. You can't even really do this anyway, because IMGs must apply for approval from the New York State Medical Board for every single non-affiliated rotation they do in the state, and they would presumably reject your application once you reach >12 weeks. I also believe they ban you from licensure not residency, but I'm not sure about that.

As you see, it's not as simple as exempt vs non-exempt. Even if UQ gets approved by the NYS Medical Board, they would then have to make formal affiliations with individual hospitals before their students could do more than 12 weeks of rotations. And these formal affiliations usually include tons of money changing hands and competing with all the Caribbean schools (and US schools!) also vying for those spots.
 
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Oschner isn't most Australian schools. There are some I would say are fine choices (such as Sydney). But for a person wanting to come back to the states in 2021? Oschner is a poor choice compared to the DO route. The residency situation is going to be much closer to parity by then, things are going to be ugly.
I guess it depends on what your definition of much is. I think you're way overstating it.

As of now, and over the last 10 years, 6,500-7,100 IMGs have matched into ACGME PGY1 positions each year. This number has been rock-stable. The best estimates put that number at ~4,500 by 2024.

So in 2021 the number will likely be ~5,000-5,500, as compared to 6,500-7,000 right now. A decrease for sure, but a gradual decrease with plenty of positions still available.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1511707?rss=searchAndBrowse&#t=article
http://www.acgme.org/About-Us/Publi...Graduate-Medical-Education-Data-Resource-Book
 
You found out about it before the student body did. :(

New York Site Visit Confirmed
Posted on: Saturday, 2 July 2016 6:35:35 AM AEST

Dear Students,

We are happy to announce that the University of Queensland School of Medicine (UQ SOM) Site Visit by the New York State Education Department (NYSED) has been confirmed. The NYSED will be visiting UQ SOM October 1-8, 2016. As more details evolve pertaining to the actual site visit and subsequent outcome deliverables we will keep you abreast of those developments.

https://medicine.uq.edu.au/uq-ochsner-md-program

I told you that I had a meeting with a very high level person. I suppose this is just a way of independently confirming that I am not FoS (full of s***) when discussing these matters. I certainly endeavor to be as honest, open, and state my thoughts with a level of confidence in concordance with the evidence able to be brought to bear on the matter.
 
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Oschner isn't most Australian schools. There are some I would say are fine choices (such as Sydney). But for a person wanting to come back to the states in 2021? Oschner is a poor choice compared to the DO route. The residency situation is going to be much closer to parity by then, things are going to be ugly.

I'm sorry but you really don't know what you are talking about. I've discussed this topic ad nauseum using real numbers and actual data. Given that I spend my time on this forum out of the kindness of my heart rather than any sort of compensation (of any kind), I'll leave it to those who are interested to search through my comment history for the relevant posts. If you (or others) are not interested, then feel free to continue being wrong and act in concordance with those false beliefs. If you are interested, then the data is there and I've even conveniently dissected it for you a number of times. But it has been my experience that people will tend to read what I just wrote, dig in their heels, decide that I'm a jerk (or idiot) and that obviously they must be right, and then ultimately decide that the tiny effort of doing a search on my comments is simply not worth the effort because... reasons.

Anyways, do as y'all please. I've done my part in pointing out that this statement is false. It's up to y'all to decide if it matters enough to you to determine the reality of the matter.
 
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The NY 12 weeks rule is being way over-simplified in this thread. There is no such thing as being exempt vs not-exempt.

New York limits the number of weeks a foreign medical student can rotate at non-affiliated hospitals. The way the Caribbean schools get around this is a formal affiliation between the medical school and hospitals in the eyes of the NY State Medical Board. Each individual medical school has a unique list of hospitals that they are "affiliated" with at which their students can do unlimited rotations not subject to the 12 week rule. When coming from one of these schools, the IMG will get a letter prior to their first rotation in NY that lists the hospitals that their school is affiliated with. Coming from Ross I did 46 weeks of rotations in NY, 34 of which at hospitals that were affiliated with Ross (in the eyes of the NYS Medical Board), and 12 at non-affiliated hospitals.

As an IMG, you are not allowed to do >12 weeks of clinical rotations physically located in New York state in hospitals not affiliated with your school. You can do as many weeks of non-affiliated rotations as you want anywhere else in the US, just no more than 12 can be in New York. You can't even really do this anyway, because IMGs must apply for approval from the New York State Medical Board for every single non-affiliated rotation they do in the state, and they would presumably reject your application once you reach >12 weeks. I also believe they ban you from licensure not residency, but I'm not sure about that.

As you see, it's not as simple as exempt vs non-exempt. Even if UQ gets approved by the NYS Medical Board, they would then have to make formal affiliations with individual hospitals before their students could do more than 12 weeks of rotations. And these formal affiliations usually include tons of money changing hands and competing with all the Caribbean schools (and US schools!) also vying for those spots.

No it is not quite as simple as exempt vs not-exempt, but you are also still missing the actual point. The issue with NY is that the UQ program is, in their eyes (and that of the MB of Cali) separate from the UQ-O program. Thus if a UQ "traddie" who does all 4 years in Aus at UQ wants to go to NY that is not a problem. But because the UQ-O program is "different" that means that in the eyes of NY the UQ -O students are doing >12 wks away from their home institution's affiliated hospital thus violating the rule. Once NY does the site visit and approves the school, then not only will UQ-O be on the list but the official affiliation between UQ and O will be recognized and thus students will be eligible to do residency in NY.

So the issue at hand right now is that nobody from UQ-O is eligible for residency in NY because of the way the rule plays out. Once it is approved then we will be, however you are right that the 12 week rule will still apply if students want to do >12wks of rotation in NY since there are no UQ affiliated hospitals there. But that is entirely a moot point since no UQ-O student is allowed to do more than 12 weeks of rotations away from Ochsner period. And that includes the 8 wks of return rotation to Australia that is still currently required during M4 year (though I understand there are efforts underway to remove this as a requirement and leave it as an option).

So at the end of the day, all the nuances matter not one whit since the real issue at hand is the approval and once that happens there will be no impediments to UQ-O students doing residency in NY.
 
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I'm sorry but you really don't know what you are talking about. I've discussed this topic ad nauseum using real numbers and actual data. Given that I spend my time on this forum out of the kindness of my heart rather than any sort of compensation (of any kind), I'll leave it to those who are interested to search through my comment history for the relevant posts. If you (or others) are not interested, then feel free to continue being wrong and act in concordance with those false beliefs. If you are interested, then the data is there and I've even conveniently dissected it for you a number of times. But it has been my experience that people will tend to read what I just wrote, dig in their heels, decide that I'm a jerk (or idiot) and that obviously they must be right, and then ultimately decide that the tiny effort of doing a search on my comments is simply not worth the effort because... reasons.

Anyways, do as y'all please. I've done my part in pointing out that this statement is false. It's up to y'all to decide if it matters enough to you to determine the reality of the matter.
There's been over ten new schools opened in the last two years, with several more opening next year (as many as six, last I checked). A lot of DO programs aren't making the cut in the ACGME switch which will reduce program numbers. Couple that with the 600-1000 extra students that seem to be entering the pipeline every single year and it makes for an ever tighter calculus. You should re-do your numbers for the class of 2021 with the additional students factored in- matching won't be impossible, but it's going to be substantially harder.
 
Shoulda gone to bone wizard school. Now instead you're rolling the dice overseas and very likely to graduate into a residency nightmare scenario. Between the two, I'd say SGU. Neither is a fantastic option these days though.

I dont get it, you seem to be high on Sackler. Judging by Oschner's match list and the fact they have a designated clinical system in the US I would think they would be much closer to Sackler than SGU and definitely not worse than SGU. The only downside to Oschner in terms of international programs is the price tag imo.
 
I dont get it, you seem to be high on Sackler. Judging by Oschner's match list and the fact they have a designated clinical system in the US I would think they would be much closer to Sackler than SGU and definitely not worse than SGU. The only downside to Oschner in terms of international programs is the price tag imo.
Sackler>Most Aus schools>Oschner>SGU
 
There's been over ten new schools opened in the last two years, with several more opening next year (as many as six, last I checked). A lot of DO programs aren't making the cut in the ACGME switch which will reduce program numbers. Couple that with the 600-1000 extra students that seem to be entering the pipeline every single year and it makes for an ever tighter calculus. You should re-do your numbers for the class of 2021 with the additional students factored in- matching won't be impossible, but it's going to be substantially harder.

I've done the numbers. With actual numbers. Not rough guesstimates you are throwing out. As I said, search the history.

And you are also ignoring a very salient point: there will still be a surplus of spots to the tune of at least 3-4,000 per year. But those aren't spots that US grads are competing for, by definition and in practice. You can't treat the availability and competitiveness of spots assuming the populations are homogeneous. They are not, and doing so is the ecological fallacy. There are spots in the US that simply are not available to IMGs and will not be regardless of the number of grads. There are and will always be spots that are completely open and care little about your foreign status. And then there are the ones in the middle, where they aren't off limits to IMG's but it is tough to get in there. Those spots will end up squeezing out the IMGs from the lesser Caribs, the Eastern Europe's, the Central Asian, and so on schools. Not the SGU, not the UQ-O.

Also the likely inevitable merger of the ACGME and AOA will open more spots for US grads and IMG's to compete for that were never opened before.

So sure, will things get "tougher?" Yeah. They always do. Every year. The year my best friend applied to ophthal with his 234 Step 1 was the year that the mean Step 1 score for the accepted class of the previous year jumped from 236 to 242, capping off a long and steady rise.

So yeah, considering I used numbers from last year's dataset to do my calculus, I really doubt I am somehow that out of date.
 
I've done the numbers. With actual numbers. Not rough guesstimates you are throwing out. As I said, search the history.

And you are also ignoring a very salient point: there will still be a surplus of spots to the tune of at least 3-4,000 per year. But those aren't spots that US grads are competing for, by definition and in practice. You can't treat the availability and competitiveness of spots assuming the populations are homogeneous. They are not, and doing so is the ecological fallacy. There are spots in the US that simply are not available to IMGs and will not be regardless of the number of grads. There are and will always be spots that are completely open and care little about your foreign status. And then there are the ones in the middle, where they aren't off limits to IMG's but it is tough to get in there. Those spots will end up squeezing out the IMGs from the lesser Caribs, the Eastern Europe's, the Central Asian, and so on schools. Not the SGU, not the UQ-O.

Also the likely inevitable merger of the ACGME and AOA will open more spots for US grads and IMG's to compete for that were never opened before.

So sure, will things get "tougher?" Yeah. They always do. Every year. The year my best friend applied to ophthal with his 234 Step 1 was the year that the mean Step 1 score for the accepted class of the previous year jumped from 236 to 242, capping off a long and steady rise.

So yeah, considering I used numbers from last year's dataset to do my calculus, I really doubt I am somehow that out of date.
Unless the new agenda being pushed by the NY medical society starts to gain ground in pushing a US first match policy. There's a lot of uncertainty out there, and it's only going to get worse. That is what you can be sure of.
 
Unless the new agenda being pushed by the NY medical society starts to gain ground in pushing a US first match policy. There's a lot of uncertainty out there, and it's only going to get worse. That is what you can be sure of.

And yet again you are nothing but fear mongering. First off, this is an initiative that has been suggested in some form or another for quite some time and - for myriad reasons - has never flown. And it still won't fly. The NY med society (just like the AMA or any other society/association) can't do diddly. They can make recommendations, write demands, put out white papers, stomp their feet, but nobody has to do anything about it. Which is precisely why, even though it is an admittedly useful thing to watch, it is silly to get anxious and worked up over the possibility. It will require the agreement of multiple large and international bodies in order for it to make it happen. Don't underestimate how incredibly difficult it is to make a single bureaucracy do something. Now magnify it by orders of magnitude when it requires multiple such bureaucracies that span two countries (Canada and the US, since the LCME would have to be involved). And since the LCME is involved and there is an agreement of reciprocity between the US and Canada, that alone will be enough to massively hinder such a proposal. Because the Canadians don't pay American taxes. So we would either have to include those "freeloaders" since their schools are LCME accredited or we would have to cut them out, which would leave the LCME accreditation in a weird spot. So already there are about a jillion roadblocks to something like that becoming policy. But even if it somehow did...


"The Task Force on the Shortage of Residency Positions recommends that MSSNY ask the AMA to work with the ACGME, AAMC, NRMP, AHA, AOA, COCA, AACOM, and other relevant parties to change the residency match program such that the initial round of the match for taxpayer-supported residency programs will only be available to graduates of LCME- and AOA-accredited medical schools in the US, and to U.S. citizens or residents who are graduates of international medical schools, while subsequent rounds will be available to non-U.S. citizens or residents who are graduates of international medical schools."

We still wouldn't be affected by the proposed changes! Nobody from UQ-O could be affected by definition since in order to be a UQ-O student you must be a US citizen or permanent resident (we had a couple of Canucks sneak in on the last clause :p). And of course, it has nothing to do with the school but being an US citizen so it doesn't matter where you go, so long as you are 'Murrican in a legal sense you will not be affected by the proposal.

So instead of reading a headline and the first 2 lines of something that is scary sounding and jumping to conclusions, all whilst being oblivious of the magnitude of effort such a seemingly minor and obvious change would entail, it would behoove you to actually read through the primary source data you are trying to source before posting. A lot of times you'll get away with it, until someone like me comes along who is more knowledgeable and has the google-fu and speed reading capacity to demonstrate you wrong in the 10 minutes it just took.

So seriously, instead of being scared of the landscape because you (obviously) don't actually know it well, read up and feel a bit more confident and relaxed.
 
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Unless the new agenda being pushed by the NY medical society starts to gain ground in pushing a US first match policy. There's a lot of uncertainty out there, and it's only going to get worse. That is what you can be sure of.
But isnt the ny medical society proposal including usimgs in the first round? If anything that would be a huge boon. I don't see how that will get passed though as much as it would benefit me.
 
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Hi all, I have spent the last two years navigating my way through state-side med school applications in the US, have been on waitlists for a while and with no luck state-side I am considering the IMG route now. I have been accepted to SGU and UQ-Ochsner now for the upcoming academic year. I know SGU carries the stigma of a Caribbean school while UQ-Ochsner at least is gaining reputation with every graduating class. At the same time, my goal is to return to NYC to an EM residency. What steers me away from SGU more than anything else is the attrition and enormous class size, at the same time they are affiliated with some great hospitals in NYC (one of which I hope to do my residency in). I am at a serious crossroads, deep down I was hoping for this acceptance, now I dunno, I am weighing my options and hopes for my future 4 years from now. Sorry for the rant, I guess what I am asking is despite the vast difference in attrition between the two schools, knowing that I would like to eventually return to NYC (specifically for EM), if not during residency, then definitely during my career after residency, does UQ-Ochsner afford me that much better of an opportunity than SGU?


I am a first-year UQ-Ochsner student from New York. Thought I would put in my two cents. First, in regards to NY residencies - now that the site visit has been scheduled, I would consider it all but a done deal. I will definitely be considering a move back to NYC for residency and am not the least bit concerned. My understanding (from doing some research and asking lots of questions) is that the main impediment to NY approval is maneuvering around the red tape to get the process started. I can’t imagine, with my knowledge of UQ & Ochsner, that the committee would conclude that the program doesn’t warrant approval.

Now, to the overarching question of UQ-Ochsner vs. SGU. The main outcome with which we are concerned is matching into a quality residency in the specialty and region that we want. I’ve analyzed this below:

-Match rate only tells so much (93% for UQ-Ochsner in 2016; can’t find SGU’s but it’s reported to be ~70-85% - anyone have more exact #s??).

-The attrition at SGU is also widely reported to be much greater than at UQ-Ochsner, which is reported to be roughly equal to attrition at UQ MD schools. Again, no exact #s.

-Of those who do match, UQ-Ochsner matches into moderately (Anesth, EM, GenSurg, IM-Peds, OBGYN, Rad) and very competitive (Derm, ENT, NeuroSurg, Opth, Ortho, Plastics, RadOnc, Urology, VascSurg) specialties at higher rates. By these definitions of field competitiveness (which are more or less accepted and are adapted from a publication), in 2016 UQ-O matched 6% into very competitive specialties and 24% into moderately competitive specialties, compared to <0.5% and 14% respectively at SGU. These are numbers I computed myself using their match lists, FYI.

-Within each specialty, UQ-Ochsner also matches at higher rates into university programs and well regarded university-affiliated and community programs. I didn’t feel like crunching the numbers, but it should be apparent when looking at the match lists. I will also mention that UQ-Ochsner, seems to be trending upwards – matching into better programs and specialties at better rates, even while the graduating class size grows to it’s intended size of 120.

-Since you’re interested in EM, look where they are matching. SGU matches a lot in the NYC area, as they have arrangements with many outer-borough hospitals for clinical rotations. However, these are generally at lesser competitive programs. While there haven’t been a whole lot of EM matches (or total graduates for that matter) from UQ-Ochsner yet, they have placed students into Boston Medical Center and Cook County, two of the most highly regarded programs. Obviously there aren’t enough numbers from UQ-O to make definite claims, but the trends are very positive.

I think the most important difference between the schools though, is the opportunities available for students. UQ is a world-class public research university with endless research opportunities for students (which is very important if you want to match into a competitive residency program or work in academic medicine). In my first semester, I started working with a clinician/researcher in my area of interest who regularly publishes in high-impact journals. All I had to do was express an interest and some research experience, and I was invited onboard. Several of my peers have had similar experiences. Ochsner is a very highly regarded teaching hospital/growing healthcare system. The clinical experience you gain there, coupled with the name and connections that it brings will help you place into a specialty of your choosing. I’ll be honest and say I don’t know a whole lot about SGU, but it is a for-profit stand-alone medical school that seems to lack the resources of UQ and Ochsner.

I do understand that SGU may be quite a bit cheaper, but you are looking at a serious earning potential with a minimum salary of ~$150k/yr. As long as you can secure loans (you are eligible for UQ govt loans at UQ-O), in my opinion, the difference in eventual debt will be a relative non-factor. In my mind, professional development and the ability to better position myself for a successful career outweighs the cost. But that’s a personal decision, as is distance from home.

While SGU may teach to the USMLE, whereas UQ obviously follows an Australian curriculum, the majority of the material overlaps well and UQ is trying hard to make up for gaps in the curriculum. It’s not perfect, but for me it’s not a deal breaker, and is balanced with the opportunity to learn in a medical system arguably much better than ours. People disagree on how successful UQ is in preparing us, possibly because they also vary in the amount of work they are willing to put into their studies. I tend to think that though UQ can be a bit disorganized, they do a pretty good job and are relatively open to student criticism. I see improvements happening all the time. However, as with all else, it comes down to weighing personal preferences.

Now regarding the concern about residency spots available to us in the future, I would refer to “nybgrus” who I don’t know personally, but who has posted for years about this and other concerns. He seems to know what he’s talking about. I will say that if you believe as I do, and as the numbers seem to suggest - that UQ-Ochsner positions you better to match than SGU - then this should be a non-issue. When you bring in DO or US MD or English, Irish, Israeli, etc. schools that’s a whole different debate, which I won’t really address right now. I never considered Caribbean, DO, or other international schools because none of them seemed to offer me the opportunities I personally sought out in a medical school.

Just a quick note on the Kings County Anesthesiology match which was discussed on this thread – if you look on Mededpath, you’ll see that was a UQ grad (full 4 years in AU) not a UQ-Ochsner grad. UQ-Ochsner NY approval is hopefully forthcoming towards the end of the year, as discussed above.

Ok, that’s long enough as it is. I hope it helps to get a different perspective on this. Of course, remember your residency placement is largely predicated on how much effort you put in, not just where you go. Still, I very much feel that the glass ceiling, if it exists at all at UQ-O is much higher than at SGU. I mean no offense towards SGU, and I know that many fine doctors come out of SGU, but I do think that UQ-Ochsner provides better opportunities for its graduates.
 
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I am a first-year UQ-Ochsner student from New York. Thought I would put in my two cents. First, in regards to NY residencies - now that the site visit has been scheduled, I would consider it all but a done deal. I will definitely be considering a move back to NYC for residency and am not the least bit concerned. My understanding (from doing some research and asking lots of questions) is that the main impediment to NY approval is maneuvering around the red tape to get the process started. I can’t imagine, with my knowledge of UQ & Ochsner, that the committee would conclude that the program doesn’t warrant approval.

Now, to the overarching question of UQ-Ochsner vs. SGU. The main outcome with which we are concerned is matching into a quality residency in the specialty and region that we want. I’ve analyzed this below:

-Match rate only tells so much (93% for UQ-Ochsner in 2016; can’t find SGU’s but it’s reported to be ~70-85% - anyone have more exact #s??).

-The attrition at SGU is also widely reported to be much greater than at UQ-Ochsner, which is reported to be roughly equal to attrition at UQ MD schools. Again, no exact #s.

-Of those who do match, UQ-Ochsner matches into moderately (Anesth, EM, GenSurg, IM-Peds, OBGYN, Rad) and very competitive (Derm, ENT, NeuroSurg, Opth, Ortho, Plastics, RadOnc, Urology, VascSurg) specialties at higher rates. By these definitions of field competitiveness (which are more or less accepted and are adapted from a publication), in 2016 UQ-O matched 6% into very competitive specialties and 24% into moderately competitive specialties, compared to <0.5% and 14% respectively at SGU. These are numbers I computed myself using their match lists, FYI.

-Within each specialty, UQ-Ochsner also matches at higher rates into university programs and well regarded university-affiliated and community programs. I didn’t feel like crunching the numbers, but it should be apparent when looking at the match lists. I will also mention that UQ-Ochsner, seems to be trending upwards – matching into better programs and specialties at better rates, even while the graduating class size grows to it’s intended size of 120.

-Since you’re interested in EM, look where they are matching. SGU matches a lot in the NYC area, as they have arrangements with many outer-borough hospitals for clinical rotations. However, these are generally at lesser competitive programs. While there haven’t been a whole lot of EM matches (or total graduates for that matter) from UQ-Ochsner yet, they have placed students into Boston Medical Center and Cook County, two of the most highly regarded programs. Obviously there aren’t enough numbers from UQ-O to make definite claims, but the trends are very positive.

I think the most important difference between the schools though, is the opportunities available for students. UQ is a world-class public research university with endless research opportunities for students (which is very important if you want to match into a competitive residency program or work in academic medicine). In my first semester, I started working with a clinician/researcher in my area of interest who regularly publishes in high-impact journals. All I had to do was express an interest and some research experience, and I was invited onboard. Several of my peers have had similar experiences. Ochsner is a very highly regarded teaching hospital/growing healthcare system. The clinical experience you gain there, coupled with the name and connections that it brings will help you place into a specialty of your choosing. I’ll be honest and say I don’t know a whole lot about SGU, but it is a for-profit stand-alone medical school that seems to lack the resources of UQ and Ochsner.

I do understand that SGU may be quite a bit cheaper, but you are looking at a serious earning potential with a minimum salary of ~$150k/yr. As long as you can secure loans (you are eligible for UQ govt loans at UQ-O), in my opinion, the difference in eventual debt will be a relative non-factor. In my mind, professional development and the ability to better position myself for a successful career outweighs the cost. But that’s a personal decision, as is distance from home.

While SGU may teach to the USMLE, whereas UQ obviously follows an Australian curriculum, the majority of the material overlaps well and UQ is trying hard to make up for gaps in the curriculum. It’s not perfect, but for me it’s not a deal breaker, and is balanced with the opportunity to learn in a medical system arguably much better than ours. People disagree on how successful UQ is in preparing us, possibly because they also vary in the amount of work they are willing to put into their studies. I tend to think that though UQ can be a bit disorganized, they do a pretty good job and are relatively open to student criticism. I see improvements happening all the time. However, as with all else, it comes down to weighing personal preferences.

Now regarding the concern about residency spots available to us in the future, I would refer to “nybgrus” who I don’t know personally, but who has posted for years about this and other concerns. He seems to know what he’s talking about. I will say that if you believe as I do, and as the numbers seem to suggest - that UQ-Ochsner positions you better to match than SGU - then this should be a non-issue. When you bring in DO or US MD or English, Irish, Israeli, etc. schools that’s a whole different debate, which I won’t really address right now. I never considered Caribbean, DO, or other international schools because none of them seemed to offer me the opportunities I personally sought out in a medical school.

Just a quick note on the Kings County Anesthesiology match which was discussed on this thread – if you look on Mededpath, you’ll see that was a UQ grad (full 4 years in AU) not a UQ-Ochsner grad. UQ-Ochsner NY approval is hopefully forthcoming towards the end of the year, as discussed above.

Ok, that’s long enough as it is. I hope it helps to get a different perspective on this. Of course, remember your residency placement is largely predicated on how much effort you put in, not just where you go. Still, I very much feel that the glass ceiling, if it exists at all at UQ-O is much higher than at SGU. I mean no offense towards SGU, and I know that many fine doctors come out of SGU, but I do think that UQ-Ochsner provides better opportunities for its graduates.

Well said. I agree entirely. The one thing I would highlight just a tiny bit more than you did is that the numbers are still low, so that should be reflective of the confidence in our shared thoughts on the matter. That said, the confidence is still quite reasonably high and, in my argument, only likely to improve. As with anything it's often not what you know but who you know. As our graduates continue to match at residencies around the country, and then go on to become staff and perhaps even be on selection committees, it stands to reason that UQ-O match numbers will continue to improve.
 
I don't really have an opinion on SGU vs UQ-O because I think for the most part a US-IMG is a US-IMG. Where you go to school is much less important than the rest of your application (step scores, class rank, LORs, etc.) That said, I think some of this post is pretty misleading.
-Of those who do match, UQ-Ochsner matches into moderately (Anesth, EM, GenSurg, IM-Peds, OBGYN, Rad) and very competitive (Derm, ENT, NeuroSurg, Opth, Ortho, Plastics, RadOnc, Urology, VascSurg) specialties at higher rates. By these definitions of field competitiveness (which are more or less accepted and are adapted from a publication), in 2016 UQ-O matched 6% into very competitive specialties and 24% into moderately competitive specialties, compared to <0.5% and 14% respectively at SGU. These are numbers I computed myself using their match lists, FYI.

-Within each specialty, UQ-Ochsner also matches at higher rates into university programs and well regarded university-affiliated and community programs. I didn’t feel like crunching the numbers, but it should be apparent when looking at the match lists. I will also mention that UQ-Ochsner, seems to be trending upwards – matching into better programs and specialties at better rates, even while the graduating class size grows to it’s intended size of 120.
Over the course of the 4 matches that UQ-O has participated in, there have been 5 total matches in the so called "very competitive" specialties, and all 5 of them were at Ochsner. 2 ortho at Ochsner (2014, 2016), 2 ophtho at Ochsner/LSU (2015, 2016) and 1 urology at Ochsner (2016). That ENT research fellow isn't an ENT residency match by the way.

I would also argue with the "higher rates into university programs and well regarded university-affiliated and community programs" line. Looking at the list, there aren't really any matches that stand out, and the programs are really the same programs that Caribbean grads also match into. The most impressive matches from the list are actually students from the traditional UQ program, not the UQ-O program.
 
I don't really have an opinion on SGU vs UQ-O because I think for the most part a US-IMG is a US-IMG. Where you go to school is much less important than the rest of your application (step scores, class rank, LORs, etc.) That said, I think some of this post is pretty misleading.

Over the course of the 4 matches that UQ-O has participated in, there have been 5 total matches in the so called "very competitive" specialties, and all 5 of them were at Ochsner. 2 ortho at Ochsner (2014, 2016), 2 ophtho at Ochsner/LSU (2015, 2016) and 1 urology at Ochsner (2016). That ENT research fellow isn't an ENT residency match by the way.

I would also argue with the "higher rates into university programs and well regarded university-affiliated and community programs" line. Looking at the list, there aren't really any matches that stand out, and the programs are really the same programs that Caribbean grads also match into. The most impressive matches from the list are actually students from the traditional UQ program, not the UQ-O program.

My intention was to give a quantitative assessment of the two schools and not to mislead. It’s a fair point about the context. While I did mention there have only been ~100 matches in the history of the UQ-Ochsner program, perhaps I didn’t make it as clear as I could have. I would argue though that while this is not enough to make any claims with statistical significance, until there are several more matches, one has to look at trends to make as informed of a decision as possible.

The SGU stats look pretty clear – there have been enough matches for enough years with huge class sizes. The numbers seem to indicate that it is very difficult to get into a “very competitive” specialty coming from SGU. Of the ~893 matches in 2016, there were 2 matches into ortho (1 of which was in Canada) and 1 into neurosurgery. That number doesn’t take into account attrition and those who failed to match, which seem to be higher than at UQ-Ochsner.

I believe a prospective student needs to ask, in the absence of enough evidence to make absolute claims, are there signs that UQ-Ochsner will prepare him/her better. I believe there are. By comparison, 3 of the ~50 UQ-Ochsner students in its 4th graduating class matched into “very competitive” specialties. While these were at the home institution, Ochsner is highly regarded, and the trend is still very promising. FYI, I didn’t include the ENT research fellow in my calculations.

In terms of comparing programs within fields (which is probably more important as only so many want to become orthopods, etc.), I do believe that the UQ-O matches are stronger. This is harder to quantify (at the very least, quite time-consuming) and is to some extent subjective. Even the university/univ. affiliated/community breakdown to which I alluded is a bit flawed. Some community programs are arguably stronger than some uni. ones and of course there is lots of subjectivity and personal preference. From what I’ve been told, EM is a totally different ball game that throws the traditional hierarchy of programs on its head. Now, I am hesitant to pick out specific matches because it lacks real significance and the conversation can devolve very quickly from there. I would continue to suggest people making a choice between the two have a look at the match lists for themselves. In the end, we may disagree with our assessments but I don’t think I was being misleading.

I do think that UQ-Ochsner, with its unique structure and available resources, has the potential to be a cut above other international schools. Perhaps too early to say, but the signs do seem to be there.
 
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I don't really have an opinion on SGU vs UQ-O because I think for the most part a US-IMG is a US-IMG. Where you go to school is much less important than the rest of your application (step scores, class rank, LORs, etc.) That said, I think some of this post is pretty misleading.

Over the course of the 4 matches that UQ-O has participated in, there have been 5 total matches in the so called "very competitive" specialties, and all 5 of them were at Ochsner. 2 ortho at Ochsner (2014, 2016), 2 ophtho at Ochsner/LSU (2015, 2016) and 1 urology at Ochsner (2016). That ENT research fellow isn't an ENT residency match by the way.

I would also argue with the "higher rates into university programs and well regarded university-affiliated and community programs" line. Looking at the list, there aren't really any matches that stand out, and the programs are really the same programs that Caribbean grads also match into. The most impressive matches from the list are actually students from the traditional UQ program, not the UQ-O program.

Does UQ match better to US or you mean match better in Australia (compared to UQ-O)?
 
Does UQ match better to US or you mean match better in Australia (compared to UQ-O)?
The best matches on the UQ-O match list have an asterisk next to them denoting "4-year onshore cohort," which I took to mean the regular UQ program. Maybe that means something else, I don't know.
 
I am a first-year UQ-Ochsner student from New York. Thought I would put in my two cents. First, in regards to NY residencies - now that the site visit has been scheduled, I would consider it all but a done deal. I will definitely be considering a move back to NYC for residency and am not the least bit concerned. My understanding (from doing some research and asking lots of questions) is that the main impediment to NY approval is maneuvering around the red tape to get the process started. I can’t imagine, with my knowledge of UQ & Ochsner, that the committee would conclude that the program doesn’t warrant approval.

Now, to the overarching question of UQ-Ochsner vs. SGU. The main outcome with which we are concerned is matching into a quality residency in the specialty and region that we want. I’ve analyzed this below:

-Match rate only tells so much (93% for UQ-Ochsner in 2016; can’t find SGU’s but it’s reported to be ~70-85% - anyone have more exact #s??).

-The attrition at SGU is also widely reported to be much greater than at UQ-Ochsner, which is reported to be roughly equal to attrition at UQ MD schools. Again, no exact #s.

-Of those who do match, UQ-Ochsner matches into moderately (Anesth, EM, GenSurg, IM-Peds, OBGYN, Rad) and very competitive (Derm, ENT, NeuroSurg, Opth, Ortho, Plastics, RadOnc, Urology, VascSurg) specialties at higher rates. By these definitions of field competitiveness (which are more or less accepted and are adapted from a publication), in 2016 UQ-O matched 6% into very competitive specialties and 24% into moderately competitive specialties, compared to <0.5% and 14% respectively at SGU. These are numbers I computed myself using their match lists, FYI.

-Within each specialty, UQ-Ochsner also matches at higher rates into university programs and well regarded university-affiliated and community programs. I didn’t feel like crunching the numbers, but it should be apparent when looking at the match lists. I will also mention that UQ-Ochsner, seems to be trending upwards – matching into better programs and specialties at better rates, even while the graduating class size grows to it’s intended size of 120.

-Since you’re interested in EM, look where they are matching. SGU matches a lot in the NYC area, as they have arrangements with many outer-borough hospitals for clinical rotations. However, these are generally at lesser competitive programs. While there haven’t been a whole lot of EM matches (or total graduates for that matter) from UQ-Ochsner yet, they have placed students into Boston Medical Center and Cook County, two of the most highly regarded programs. Obviously there aren’t enough numbers from UQ-O to make definite claims, but the trends are very positive.

I think the most important difference between the schools though, is the opportunities available for students. UQ is a world-class public research university with endless research opportunities for students (which is very important if you want to match into a competitive residency program or work in academic medicine). In my first semester, I started working with a clinician/researcher in my area of interest who regularly publishes in high-impact journals. All I had to do was express an interest and some research experience, and I was invited onboard. Several of my peers have had similar experiences. Ochsner is a very highly regarded teaching hospital/growing healthcare system. The clinical experience you gain there, coupled with the name and connections that it brings will help you place into a specialty of your choosing. I’ll be honest and say I don’t know a whole lot about SGU, but it is a for-profit stand-alone medical school that seems to lack the resources of UQ and Ochsner.

I do understand that SGU may be quite a bit cheaper, but you are looking at a serious earning potential with a minimum salary of ~$150k/yr. As long as you can secure loans (you are eligible for UQ govt loans at UQ-O), in my opinion, the difference in eventual debt will be a relative non-factor. In my mind, professional development and the ability to better position myself for a successful career outweighs the cost. But that’s a personal decision, as is distance from home.

While SGU may teach to the USMLE, whereas UQ obviously follows an Australian curriculum, the majority of the material overlaps well and UQ is trying hard to make up for gaps in the curriculum. It’s not perfect, but for me it’s not a deal breaker, and is balanced with the opportunity to learn in a medical system arguably much better than ours. People disagree on how successful UQ is in preparing us, possibly because they also vary in the amount of work they are willing to put into their studies. I tend to think that though UQ can be a bit disorganized, they do a pretty good job and are relatively open to student criticism. I see improvements happening all the time. However, as with all else, it comes down to weighing personal preferences.

Now regarding the concern about residency spots available to us in the future, I would refer to “nybgrus” who I don’t know personally, but who has posted for years about this and other concerns. He seems to know what he’s talking about. I will say that if you believe as I do, and as the numbers seem to suggest - that UQ-Ochsner positions you better to match than SGU - then this should be a non-issue. When you bring in DO or US MD or English, Irish, Israeli, etc. schools that’s a whole different debate, which I won’t really address right now. I never considered Caribbean, DO, or other international schools because none of them seemed to offer me the opportunities I personally sought out in a medical school.

Just a quick note on the Kings County Anesthesiology match which was discussed on this thread – if you look on Mededpath, you’ll see that was a UQ grad (full 4 years in AU) not a UQ-Ochsner grad. UQ-Ochsner NY approval is hopefully forthcoming towards the end of the year, as discussed above.

Ok, that’s long enough as it is. I hope it helps to get a different perspective on this. Of course, remember your residency placement is largely predicated on how much effort you put in, not just where you go. Still, I very much feel that the glass ceiling, if it exists at all at UQ-O is much higher than at SGU. I mean no offense towards SGU, and I know that many fine doctors come out of SGU, but I do think that UQ-Ochsner provides better opportunities for its graduates.
I came across this post and had to reply to this. I disagree with a lot of things said in this post. As a current UQ-O student, not one person that I've talked to is perfectly happy with the program. Every one has at least one thing that they would change about it. While UQ is a top-notch university, they are top-notch thanks to the research. The medical school is incredibly disorganized with mediocre lectures that force you to try to master the material on your own from other resources. Besides the clinicals, the only thing that UQ teaches me is go-dig-out-the-resources-and-learn-on-your-own. and with an enormous class size, the administrators couldn't care less about you. If I get the residency of my choice, it is due to my own effort and not to UQ. If you are thinking about enroling at UQ-O, make sure you try your best to find out what new policy they'll be implementing for your class as things are constantly changing at UQ and what used to be the norm isn't any more.
People keep saying that somehow caribbean schools are the worst because they are for profit. Some US schools are for profit yet I don't hear people say the same thing about them. In general, which private schools are not for profit? Telling people to choose schools regardless of tuition costs is not a good advice. I am so "glad" that I will have to borrow $97,500 USD in COE next year at UQ-O. At least caribbean schools are upfront about the profit... Ehem, simply google up internship shortage in Australia, you'll see that they have no qualm in admitting that foreign students (who study in Australia) are a great source of money for them. Tuition used to be in AUD but they soon figured that American students can borrow limitless amounts from our government. The incoming class of 2020 will pay $95k per year. Not to mention that UQ has the freedom to raise tuition every year which is what they're doing mercilessly, so the classes after me will look forward to $100k/year in 2018 (let that sink in). Remember, these are all the money you will have to repay, it is nondischargeable debt, it may not affect you now because the day of repayment seems so far away but you will end up with $400k of debt (plus whatever interests) from UQ *alone*.
If I had the chance to do it over again, I wouldn't come here. Many things the school do make me wonder if they know what they are doing and how they're affecting us. I applied one round in the US and did not know about other options. I did not choose caribbean because of the stigma. Now that I have more understanding of DO, I will never get people who say or think that they don't choose DO because they will be "limited" in some way. If you aim for a number-one ultra competitive specialty, DO will no doubt limit you compared to MD, but what makes people think that coming as an IMG will be any easier!??
My only solace is that I'll finally get away from UQ in a few days. Tuition is not getting any less but from what I heard from upperclassmen, Ochsner New Orleans is a quality institute that truly cares about your success as a future doctor.
 
I came across this post and had to reply to this. I disagree with a lot of things said in this post. As a current UQ-O student, not one person that I've talked to is perfectly happy with the program. Every one has at least one thing that they would change about it. While UQ is a top-notch university, they are top-notch thanks to the research. The medical school is incredibly disorganized with mediocre lectures that force you to try to master the material on your own from other resources. Besides the clinicals, the only thing that UQ teaches me is go-dig-out-the-resources-and-learn-on-your-own. and with an enormous class size, the administrators couldn't care less about you. If I get the residency of my choice, it is due to my own effort and not to UQ. If you are thinking about enroling at UQ-O, make sure you try your best to find out what new policy they'll be implementing for your class as things are constantly changing at UQ and what used to be the norm isn't any more.
People keep saying that somehow caribbean schools are the worst because they are for profit. Some US schools are for profit yet I don't hear people say the same thing about them. In general, which private schools are not for profit? Telling people to choose schools regardless of tuition costs is not a good advice. I am so "glad" that I will have to borrow $97,500 USD in COE next year at UQ-O. At least caribbean schools are upfront about the profit... Ehem, simply google up internship shortage in Australia, you'll see that they have no qualm in admitting that foreign students (who study in Australia) are a great source of money for them. Tuition used to be in AUD but they soon figured that American students can borrow limitless amounts from our government. The incoming class of 2020 will pay $95k per year. Not to mention that UQ has the freedom to raise tuition every year which is what they're doing mercilessly, so the classes after me will look forward to $100k/year in 2018 (let that sink in). Remember, these are all the money you will have to repay, it is nondischargeable debt, it may not affect you now because the day of repayment seems so far away but you will end up with $400k of debt (plus whatever interests) from UQ *alone*.
If I had the chance to do it over again, I wouldn't come here. Many things the school do make me wonder if they know what they are doing and how they're affecting us. I applied one round in the US and did not know about other options. I did not choose caribbean because of the stigma. Now that I have more understanding of DO, I will never get people who say or think that they don't choose DO because they will be "limited" in some way. If you aim for a number-one ultra competitive specialty, DO will no doubt limit you compared to MD, but what makes people think that coming as an IMG will be any easier!??
My only solace is that I'll finally get away from UQ in a few days. Tuition is not getting any less but from what I heard from upperclassmen, Ochsner New Orleans is a quality institute that truly cares about your success as a future doctor.

I don't think it's unusual that medical students aren't always entirely happy with their program. I am also in UQ-O, and have friends in US MD, US DO, and SGU/Ross/AUC in the Caribbean. I don't disagree that the medical school is disorganized. I will give them credit because they are constantly seeking feedback ("please fill out this brief survey on the ____ module"). I take those seriously and fill them out honestly so they know where they are doing well and where they're missing the mark and falling short. Some lectures are mediocre. Some lectures are excellent. Terry Tunny is fantastic with physiology, Nick Hawkins is great with pathology. Peter Wragg's notes for anatomy are top notch. Some of the clinical lecturers leave a lot to be desired because the lectures they prepare aren't focused towards the level of first & second year medical students. We could do with less of those.

We're medical students. No one is going to spoon feed you material at any medical school in the world. There's not enough time in the day to receive lectures that will give us everything we need to learn in a semester, so there is a fair amount of self-directed learning at UQ, and pretty much at any medical school in the world, as well. If you get the residency of your choice, I agree that is due to your effort, but would you have had the chance without being accepted to UQ-O?

Very very few US medical schools are for-profit, so I think you may have some bad information in this regard. Rocky Vista DO is one of the very few I'm aware of - perhaps you can shed some light on for-profit MD/DO in the US?

I'm not sure why you're bringing up the internship shortage in Australia. How is that relevant for a program that is designed for its graduates to practice in the United States? Out of this year's graduating class, I'm aware of only 1 person that is starting internship in Australia (at Greenslopes, if you read the FB post). That seems to be the exception and not the rule.

UQ isn't the only university raising tuition every year. US schools do the same thing.

Where are you reading COE is $97K next year? I'm seeing tuition of $67K and living expenses shouldn't be $30K on top of that. It's still very high, and I absolutely agree people should consider the cost before accepting an offer to the program.

I've heard great things about the organization & responsiveness of Ochsner administration in New Orleans as well. Good luck stateside, and have a safe trip back if you haven't left Brisbane yet!
 
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I came across this post and had to reply to this. I disagree with a lot of things said in this post. As a current UQ-O student, not one person that I've talked to is perfectly happy with the program. Every one has at least one thing that they would change about it.

Yeah. And? This is nothing more than a Nirvana Fallacy argument. I don't know anybody who is or was "perfectly happy with the program." If you don't have at least one thing you would change about any program, company, or whatever you are in then you simply aren't thinking or caring enough about it.

While UQ is a top-notch university, they are top-notch thanks to the research.

Yeah, and that is actually a really important thing. What is going to get you a residency is your board scores, your LoR, and your research. So being "top notch thanks to the research" is actually a pretty big deal and very much a positive.

The medical school is incredibly disorganized with mediocre lectures that force you to try to master the material on your own from other resources.

A true and legitimate observation. Though I we can quibble about what "incredibly disorganized" actually means, I will agree that this is probably the worst aspect of the program, though it does get significantly better when you come to Ochsner and it has been getting significantly better across the board over time. That said, it doesn't matter what medical school you go to, you will always be "forced to try and master the material on your own." I'm always amused by this argument that implies that somehow lectures and other means of learning besides independent learning are supposed to comprise the bulk of your education. That is obviously silly on its face. The amount of knowledge you have to ingest and understand is so overwhelming that trying to actually teach it to you via lectures or others in some way teaching you (rather than you teaching yourself) is simply ludicrously impossible. Trying to communicate ideas to another human being is orders of magnitude slower and less efficient that doing it yourself on your own. That doesn't mean there isn't a role for it, or for study groups for that matter, but it must necessarily be the minority of your intake of knowledge.

Besides the clinicals, the only thing that UQ teaches me is go-dig-out-the-resources-and-learn-on-your-own. and with an enormous class size, the administrators couldn't care less about you.

Excellent! Then you are learning a vastly important skill and life lesson! Now that I am 106 days away from graduating residency (but who's counting?) I can tell you a "secret" that isn't really a secret: the whole rest of your entire life and career is going to be "go-dig-out-the-resources-and-learn-on-your-own." Yes we have teaching and whatnot in residency. But it is even less than what you get in med school (even less than what you get at UQ) and it is very often low on the totem pole of priorities. Because guess what? You'll all of a sudden be responsible for the actual care of patients, including all the tedious BS that we have to do like writing notes, contacting social workers and case managers, making sure med recs are accurate, dealing with insurance companies and reimbursements for medications, denials for placements like SNF and rehab, and so on. And of course, your patients are rude enough to not respect your need to "go-dig-out-the-resources-and-learn-on-your-own" and have emergencies, try and die on you, need to spend time discussing end of life and goals of care, and so on. So you'll be working 60-80 hours per week, in a very demanding job, interspersed with a handful of learning and educational opportunities of highly variable quality (yeah, believe it or not the quality of lecturing and teaching is always highly variable no matter where you go), and still be expected to go and learn more on your own, do research (at least in "quality improvement" as this is now required by the ACGME), meet all sorts of little BS requirements (Mini-CEX's don't go away, they are also now an ACGME requirement)... all whilst changing services every 2-4 weeks, working nights interspersed with days, dealing with colleagues you may or may not like but still have to work professionally with, and trying to have a life at the same time. It is not at all uncommon that your 1 day off a week (on most services, and by ACGME rules that is only 1 day off per week averaged out over a month so you could easily go longer the 6 days without a day off... I am currently in the midst of working 2 weeks of nights and my only night off in 11 will be this Saturday) is spent trying to catch up on sleep, doing laundry, going to the grocery store, and then catching up on whatever extra-curricular work you need to. So if you think that med school can or should be about spoonfeeding you more information rather than "go-dig-out-the-resources-and-learn-on-your-own" you are both delusional and in for a world of hurt when you make it to residency.


If I get the residency of my choice, it is due to my own effort and not to UQ.

Yeah, and that is pretty much always the case no matter where you go. Just because you went to Harvard doesn't guarantee you will get a residency spot. Of course, depending on where you go it will be relatively easier or harder and there are always certain things that will make it easier for you, but it will always rest primarily on your own effort. Which, BTW, why is that a bad thing? Would you be more proud of yourself, feel more accomplished, and (especially in light of what I just wrote above) feel more prepared to take on a residency if you didn't get it through your own effort and instead was handed something to you because of the institution at which you studied?

If you are thinking about enroling at UQ-O, make sure you try your best to find out what new policy they'll be implementing for your class as things are constantly changing at UQ and what used to be the norm isn't any more.

Also true. But also true of pretty much everything everywhere. You think residency doesn't change things on you constantly? For 3 years in a row the way in which call days and admissions are handled was changed in Ochsner medicine, the cardiology rotation got completely changed, the rules about conferences change, the way the ICU rotation is structured changed, and so on. And it happens in every speciality in every residency. The laws and rules and regs change, the resources change, and so the way in which any individual residency program can meet ACGME requirements must also change. Plus, things change because some people may not like a certain system and ask for a change... and that change may or may not be for the better. Change is not an inherently bad thing and, as the old saying goes, the only constant in life is change. So you better get used to it now, because believe me when you are a doctor and all of a sudden "problem oriented charting" becomes a thing that makes your life miserable but is an institutional requirement or when the way in which CMS or the ACGME administer or require things to be changes, you'll have to adapt with it in much more arduous circumstances. You think it was fun for me to come on service in the ICU, sick, tired, with 25 patients on my census and an all new team, and suddenly have to deal with problem oriented charting all whilst trying to make sure patients don't die? Don't complain about this stuff as if it shouldn't happen, but learn that it will always happen and right now in medical school it is easiest to learn to deal with it.

People keep saying that somehow caribbean schools are the worst because they are for profit. Some US schools are for profit yet I don't hear people say the same thing about them. In general, which private schools are not for profit?

I don't know who is saying that, but I am with you that it is a stupid argument. The Caribs are not worse because they are for profit, they are worse because they don't provide you the resources and opportunities for research that both UQ and Ochsner offer and because people who are Carib grads are (unfairly or not) pigeonholed into who they must be to have gone Carib which does not exist in the same way for UQ-O. Furthermore, UQ-O is deliberately poised and has been taking advantage of positive PR that the Caribs don't and cannot have. The administration here have leveraged their positions and contacts within entities like the AAMC, ACGME, AMSA, and more to intentionally create a completely different image of UQ-O grads. And it is working and will only continue to get better as more and more of our graduates continue to fill more and more diverse programs and positions.

Telling people to choose schools regardless of tuition costs is not a good advice. I am so "glad" that I will have to borrow $97,500 USD in COE next year at UQ-O. At least caribbean schools are upfront about the profit... Ehem, simply google up internship shortage in Australia, you'll see that they have no qualm in admitting that foreign students (who study in Australia) are a great source of money for them.

Agreed. Tuition should be a consideration and the steep rise in UQ-O tuition is something that I have said for a while is a negative that is growing. That said, tuition should be a distant consideration to many other things and having an extra $100k in debt given the earning potential of being a physician really is not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of your life and career.

Also, you are internally contradictory. Which is it? That UQ is not upfront about the profit motive or that it is? Because on the one hand you are claiming that "At least caribbean schools are upfront about the profit" and then only on ellipse later you say "...you'll see that they have no qualm in admitting that foreign students... are a great source of money for them." Which sounds pretty obviously upfront to me.

Tuition used to be in AUD but they soon figured that American students can borrow limitless amounts from our government.

This is entirely irrelevant. The fact that tuition used to be in AUD and is now in USD has nothing to do with our borrowing capacity and the fact that you would argue this shows how little you know on this topic. I started out paying tuition in AUD and then switched to USD my M2 year. The US government gives you money in USD no matter what. The amount they give you is based on the tuition and the cost of living of wherever you happen to be. When tuition was in AUD the amount was converted to USD and that's how they figured out how much to give you. The problem was that with fluctuations in the value of the AUD and USD, what ends up happening is that the amount given gets set at the beginning of the year (as it always is) and then if the exchange rate screws you... oh well, now you just have less money to survive on. Furthermore, the change from USD to AUD always involved banks and banks always skim a little off the top for the "convenience" of changing your currency and so you get even less money because that is not factored into how much is given to you by the gov't. So the fact that things were changed to USD is not because they somehow after the fact figured out that we could borrow limitless amounts of money but only if they charged USD (because they obviously already knew we could borrow however much was needed and the money is always given in USD no matter what) but because myself as part of OMSA and others in my class argued for the change so we wouldn't continue getting screwed on exchange rates.

The incoming class of 2020 will pay $95k per year. Not to mention that UQ has the freedom to raise tuition every year which is what they're doing mercilessly, so the classes after me will look forward to $100k/year in 2018 (let that sink in). Remember, these are all the money you will have to repay, it is nondischargeable debt, it may not affect you now because the day of repayment seems so far away but you will end up with $400k of debt (plus whatever interests) from UQ *alone*.

Yeah, these are all very valid points. But not at all unique to UQ or UQ-O. My best friend is now in his opthal residency at UPMC and he went to a third tier US medical school and also has >$400k in debt, same as me. Tulane students graduate with similar amounts of debt since, until the last couple of years, their tuition was actually higher than UQ-O tuition. And even right now isn't that far off with tuition at $61k and total cost of attendance $86k/yr (reference). So around $10-15k a year less than UQ-O. Is $40-60k of debt extra going to break your later on in your career? Hardly.

If I had the chance to do it over again, I wouldn't come here. Many things the school do make me wonder if they know what they are doing and how they're affecting us. I applied one round in the US and did not know about other options.

Well, as I and others have long said, UQ-O is certainly not for everyone and there are unquestionably serious negatives associated with attending. But it is important to actually understand what those negatives are and based on your comments thus far I am not convinced you have a grasp on that even now. So yeah, you wonder about whether they know what they are doing and didn't know about other options, but that is on you my friend. The information is there and it is your responsibility to find it and understand it, and you clearly still aren't doing that. The fact that the program went from AUD to USD is an excellent example of that - it was an unmitigated positive, yet your lack of understanding and knowledge of the matter led you to believe it was somehow sinister.

I did not choose caribbean because of the stigma. Now that I have more understanding of DO, I will never get people who say or think that they don't choose DO because they will be "limited" in some way. If you aim for a number-one ultra competitive specialty, DO will no doubt limit you compared to MD, but what makes people think that coming as an IMG will be any easier!??

No, it is not necessarily any easier to get a residency as an IMG vs DO. Which is why I have said for years now that except for a fairly small and select population it will nearly always be better to attend a US MD program over any foreign or DO program. If you look through my comment history you will find where I discuss in detail the differences between IMG vs DO in terms of residency and career opportunities, and why I think it is probably a wash but there are arguments and reasons to believe that specifically the UQ-O program may in fact be better than a DO program. I also agree that the stigma associated with Caribs as well as the distinct lack of research opportunities is a valid reason to prefer UQ-O or some other foreign programs over the Caribs. But in regards to the DO pathway, the fact that you didn't research that option and make an informed decision about your educational path is entirely on you.

My only solace is that I'll finally get away from UQ in a few days. Tuition is not getting any less but from what I heard from upperclassmen, Ochsner New Orleans is a quality institute that truly cares about your success as a future doctor.

Yes, they do. And yes, it is better over here for a number of reasons, including the fact that clinicals are just a lot more engaging and fun than pre-clinicals. But instead of feeling sorry for yourself and thinking that you somehow got duped, try and learn from all of this and educate and inform yourself on these and other relevant matters in the future. Even if in retrospect going DO or other IMG would have been the better option for you, that ship has sailed. So stop continuing to get it wrong and make the best of it for yourself. I can assure you that in the end, no matter where you went or what you did, it will all still rest squarely on your shoulders to become a success and be happy with your life and career. And that the UQ-O program will enable you to actually do that, so long as you actually take that personal responsibility and do the work.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 
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@nybgrus Personally I don't know why more people don't go to UQ-O over the Caribbean. It is still relatively easy to get into medical school in Australia because they need money from internationals. The prestigious is much greater than the Caribbean. We're living in a first world country, and honestly people with stats good enough for SGU and Ross would more than likely make it here into UQ-O.

Not only that but attrition here is lower, and Ochsner takes a lot of their own (and from my understanding isn't trying to let anyone out to dry come residency time).

It really boggles my mind when I see kids who don't get into med school in the U.S. only try for Caribbean schools.

@the argus yes the matched classes have been small for the initial classes but UQ-O has sufficiently scaled up in the last few years and we will see in this upcoming match how the biggest class to date did. I think the biggest thing is that Ochsner isn't trying to let anyone slip through the cracks and our relationship with them is great. Not only that but the program has gained traction and become better known with each subsequent class.
 
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Well, Ochsner tries or tried to keep their own.
Doesn't mean there isn't competition for their residency positions from students from onshore American schools.

I'll be honest though, you can never predict the future. Things sure as a sh** changed a lot while I was going through medical school and it's still evolving. 'You can plan a pretty picnic, but you can't predict the weather.'

Ochsner is still a relatively new 'thing'. The first class had maybe 12 grads in 2012 or 2011. I can't remember exactly anymore. After that it was 20. then 40. then 80, 120 (something like that) and now it's what, ?200. In terms of starting class sizes.. not graduating ones. I'm not really sure how it will impact Ochsner's ability to have 'room' for everyone so to speak. Then again, Ochsner isn't exactly everyone's first choice either. I'm always surprised by how few actual Louisiana residents are part of the program.

At any rate, Ochsner wouldn't have gone through all the effort of setting up the program if it didn't intend to recruit some of the students into own residency programs. Begs the question of why all that trouble? Ochsner was blocked from creating it's own onshore 4 year program by LSU & Tulane. This was the only other way. At the time. It's also a system that was expanding, post-Katrina. It needed doctors, at one sorta recent point in time.

Also you can't compare UQ tradish and UQO.
Forget it. Maybe in the future it'll be possible. As of yet, UQ trad students are not obliged or expected to take the Steps. So not all of them do. Occasionally there's a few that score badly, but they know better than to apply to the match thereafter. The ones that eventually make it to the match are the ones who were confident they would succeed. It's skewed. the numbers would change if all UQ trad students were forced to apply to the match for instance. (hey maybe it could happen one day, never know, nothing surprises me anymore. things are actually getting tighter in Australia).

Surprised it wasn't mentioned before, the majority of UQ trad students are not American. They're Canadian or Singaporean (or token guy from Africa or Sri Lanka). Of the trad students that do apply for the match, they're erm, mostly Canadian. (The Singaporeans just wanna go home) So grats, you've descended into the age old argument of "Canadians are better than Americans" if you're suggesting that UQ trad students are better than UQO :p

UQO students (who are 100% American) are very much expected to take the Steps and do the match, the Australian internship for UQO isn't really back-up. (For most Australian hospitals - they do not want to be your back option if you don't match, and the QLD ones in particular are savvy about asking nowadays. they didn't used to be. it's.. kinda about money, the hospitals or governments pay for residency. they wouldn't pay for someone's training if that person's going to leave first chance they get. Or worse, someone who leaves a workforce gap, by signing on for a year, and then leaving within 2-3 months).

Anyway, posting that for the poor UQO students in this thread xD that have already rolled the damn dice. (I think OP disappeared a long time ago haha)

Not really wanting to get dragged into Carrib v.s. Australian schools.
It is indeed all 'a roll of a dice' going to any kind of offshore school and becoming an IMG.
 
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Well, Ochsner tries or tried to keep their own.
Doesn't mean there isn't competition for their residency positions from students from onshore American schools.

I'll be honest though, you can never predict the future. Things sure as a sh** changed a lot while I was going through medical school and it's still evolving. 'You can plan a pretty picnic, but you can't predict the weather.'

Ochsner is still a relatively new 'thing'. The first class had maybe 12 grads in 2012 or 2011. I can't remember exactly anymore. After that it was 20. then 40. then 80, 120 (something like that) and now it's what, ?200. In terms of starting class sizes.. not graduating ones. I'm not really sure how it will impact Ochsner's ability to have 'room' for everyone so to speak. Then again, Ochsner isn't exactly everyone's first choice either. I'm always surprised by how few actual Louisiana residents are part of the program.

At any rate, Ochsner wouldn't have gone through all the effort of setting up the program if it didn't intend to recruit some of the students into own residency programs. Begs the question of why all that trouble? Ochsner was blocked from creating it's own onshore 4 year program by LSU & Tulane. This was the only other way. At the time. It's also a system that was expanding, post-Katrina. It needed doctors, at one sorta recent point in time.

Also you can't compare UQ tradish and UQO.
Forget it. Maybe in the future it'll be possible. As of yet, UQ trad students are not obliged or expected to take the Steps. So not all of them do. Occasionally there's a few that score badly, but they know better than to apply to the match thereafter. The ones that eventually make it to the match are the ones who were confident they would succeed. It's skewed. the numbers would change if all UQ trad students were forced to apply to the match for instance. (hey maybe it could happen one day, never know, nothing surprises me anymore. things are actually getting tighter in Australia).

Surprised it wasn't mentioned before, the majority of UQ trad students are not American. They're Canadian or Singaporean (or token guy from Africa or Sri Lanka). Of the trad students that do apply for the match, they're erm, mostly Canadian. (The Singaporeans just wanna go home) So grats, you've descended into the age old argument of "Canadians are better than Americans" if you're suggesting that UQ trad students are better than UQO :p

UQO students (who are 100% American) are very much expected to take the Steps and do the match, the Australian internship for UQO isn't really back-up. (For most Australian hospitals - they do not want to be your back option if you don't match, and the QLD ones in particular are savvy about asking nowadays. they didn't used to be. it's.. kinda about money, the hospitals or governments pay for residency. they wouldn't pay for someone's training if that person's going to leave first chance they get. Or worse, someone who leaves a workforce gap, by signing on for a year, and then leaving within 2-3 months).

Anyway, posting that for the poor UQO students in this thread xD that have already rolled the damn dice. (I think OP disappeared a long time ago haha)

Not really wanting to get dragged into Carrib v.s. Australian schools.
It is indeed all 'a roll of a dice' going to any kind of offshore school and becoming an IMG.

A bit off topic @A Leaky Sieve lol. The UQ-O program is now in its 8th year, I believe (maybe 9th). Currently UQ-O class is stable at 120 (just wanting to correct your slightly off numbers). They are not scaling up further than that number. This was the capacity they set out to get to over a period of years of slowly increasing enrollment based on both what UQ and Ochsner can handle teaching wise).

UQ traddie IMGs are indeed mostly Canadians (about 60 of them) who are either taking the USMLE and canadian boards optionally or trying to just stay in aussie (not sure why you brought this point up). There is no obligation for them to take the STEPS because they can continue on to years 3 and 4 without them unlike UQ-O students, who now cannot continue onto years 3 and 4 at Ochsner without passing step 1 (makes sense because the UQ-O program is set up to train american doctors and you can't become an american doctor without passing the steps). There is no argument over whether UQ-O or UQ students are better lol. If you want to stay in Australia UQ trad is a better option. If you want to improve your chances of securing a U.S. residency UQ-O ochsner is a better option. Its that simple. But obviously people who have done both have done it the other way around (i.e. possible to secure internship in oz as a UQ-O and vice versa but more difficult).

I did not realize Ochsner tried to set up their own onshore medical school and was blocked (interesting fact you brought up). My understanding was that it was a mutually beneficial partnership as Ochsner wanted to harness UQ's research potential and UQ wanted to be affiliated with a U.S. hospital and have an additional revenue stream (gold mine for them). With the current state of budget constraints in higher ed in Australia (it is no surprise that almost every Australian medical school takes a good number of international students (I haven't looked at trends but I'm sure they are all trying to increase their international numbers year over year as much as they can without sacrificing teaching ability).
 
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Thanks for correcting!
The farther I get from grad the less I remember about details.

I was directing the comparison of UQO and UQ traddie towards many posters ago now, jeez. *what I should have done is quoted them. But i got lazy.
someone was saying UQO comes behind xyZ schools and UQ trad. Which was absurd. There's no comparing the two cohorts at all. No one at UQ does haha, but I can understand how someone on the outside would. Devil in the details.

oh here we go:
Sackler>Most Aus schools>Oschner>SGU
:S oh well

UQ benefits for sure.
But you never thought about why Ochsner would go to another country to set up a partnership?
Not that it matters, but the end result is that it was set up to be well intended towards the students it recruits, while introducing or creating more young doctors to NOLA.
 
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Um... I'm 99% sure that you can't even apply to NY after Oschner. Google the NY 12-Week Elective rule. Please let me know if you know otherwise.

This is not accurate. Whilst it is true that UQ-O grads used to not be able to apply to NY we did just receive accreditation in New York earlier this year with the class of 2017 even seeing a couple of matches there right from the get go.

The class of 2018 will be the first match where UQ-O grads will be able to apply to California as well, so we will see how that goes.

5 UQ-O grads started internship in Australia this year, but supposedly there was no internship shortage this year with a number of spots going unfilled

So to answer any doubts or confusion, UQ-O grads can apply to New York, California, and Australia
 
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I get that you're trying to defend your program.

But this is also reviving an old thread.
OP has not replied in ages. pretty sure most of the posters who replied when it was first created are long gone and do not care. at this point, you're preaching to the choir lol, if you look at the last few posters.

To clarify this -
5 UQ-O grads started internship in Australia this year, but supposedly there was no internship shortage this year with a number of spots going unfilled

So to answer any doubts or confusion, UQ-O grads can apply to New York, California, and Australia

it's very challenging for UQO students to apply to Australia and goes against what the program was created for. sure a number of spot unfilled in the state of QLD..I wonder why. even then, most students will end up in rural internships, or rural/mixed private hospital internship.

The VISA changes this year, which unless gets re-changed any time soon, means you cannot complete any residency program in Australia.

For the predominantly American premeds reading threads like this, most have no idea how different the 'residency' training system is in Australia. It's not all about the intern year, every single year thereafter you have to re-apply for a house officer/resident position. And that is no guarantee currently that you will get the position you want at the hospital you want, RBWH laid off about 50 of their interns (as in did not renew contract for PGY2/JHO), as an example. They eventually rehired a number, but many had to go elsewhere.

After you do some house officer years, then you apply for registrar training - which is getting more competitive. With some exceptions, like psychiatry (potentially you could get into it as a PGY2 or PGY3 - but this is also getting competitive). Many programs require that you have PR status in Australia before they will allow you to even apply. Right now, it's a minimum 4-5 years before you would be eligible for PR (with the exception of final year students). And it's not a guarantee that you will even get PR.

training to be a fully qualified doctor in Australia is nearly double the number of years compared to North America, because the day-to-day hours are much more lifestyle friendly. But understandably, this is not for everyone.
 
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Last post was in April of this year. Not sure how this is considered "reviving an old thread", and I didn't say it was easy to do internship in Aus I said you can. Obviously going to work in a country other than your own is not going to be for the faint of heart

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