PhD/PsyD Second Doctorate

[TheEnemyWithin]

Hey, everyone! A little bit of background: I am currently finishing my didactic phase and entering my research and dissertation next year, PhD Forensic Psychology; I expect to be finished/conferred sometime in 2019. Immediately following this, I intend to enroll in an APA-accredited PhD Clinical Psych program. My rationale is due to having been enrolled in an online PhD Clinical Psych program and, after realizing that it was no APA accredited, I transferred to Forensic Psych because I do not believe in wasting work that was already performed. Also, I would like to be able to utilize the APPIC system for practicum/internship/residency placement. I find it abhorrent that the faculty at the non-APA accredited schools do not assist or have the infrastructure for this. The result would be a candidate remaining an ABD or having to transfer to a different school for, usually, an entirely new doctorate. I wanted to get other peoples' perspective on this. On one end, people ask me, 'why not just transfer to the Clinical Psych program now?' while on the other (and this is my train of thought), 'you might as well finish the program you've already invested so much time with'

Is anyone else in a similar situation? Oh, by the way, there is an online school that has been APA accredited for over 20 years and 2 other programs that will gain accreditation next year. The tide is turning. Some of these professors come from Ivy League institutions, as well. As pertains to the didactic phase of any degree of study, I don't see an issue with this. I earned my first masters degree from an Ivy League school (Cornell University). Honestly, I don't see the difference as long as the information is being learned. Following my time at four different traditional schools, Ithaca College, Cornell University, Columbus State University and Arizona State University, resulting in my BA, MS, and MAEd, the only difference I perceive is that I can do so much more with my time. Obviously, as pertains to practicum and internship, the candidate has to work in the field. What are peoples' thoughts on APA-accredited online programs? Just to clarify, I am speaking of online study in the didactic phase, NOT the practicum or internship phases - this wouldn't be possible. Therefore, these programs are ACTUALLY hybrid programs.

Final thoughts - Gotta love those GradPlus loans!! : / #studentloandebt

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[erg923]

Hey, everyone! A little bit of background: I am currently finishing my didactic phase and entering my research and dissertation next year, PhD Forensic Psychology; I expect to be finished/conferred sometime in 2019. Immediately following this, I intend to enroll in an APA-accredited PhD Clinical Psych program. My rationale is due to having been enrolled in an online PhD Clinical Psych program and, after realizing that it was no APA accredited, I transferred to Forensic Psych because I do not believe in wasting work that was already performed. Also, I would like to be able to utilize the APPIC system for practicum/internship/residency placement. I find it abhorrent that the faculty at the non-APA accredited schools do not assist or have the infrastructure for this. The result would be a candidate remaining an ABD or having to transfer to a different school for, usually, an entirely new doctorate. I wanted to get other peoples' perspective on this. On one end, people ask me, 'why not just transfer to the Clinical Psych program now?' while on the other (and this is my train of thought), 'you might as well finish the program you've already invested so much time with'

Is anyone else in a similar situation? Oh, by the way, there is an online school that has been APA accredited for over 20 years and 2 other programs that will gain accreditation next year. The tide is turning. Some of these professors come from Ivy League institutions, as well. As pertains to the didactic phase of any degree of study, I don't see an issue with this. I earned my first masters degree from an Ivy League school (Cornell University). Honestly, I don't see the difference as long as the information is being learned. Following my time at four different traditional schools, Ithaca College, Cornell University, Columbus State University and Arizona State University, resulting in my BA, MS, and MAEd, the only difference I perceive is that I can do so much more with my time. Obviously, as pertains to practicum and internship, the candidate has to work in the field. What are peoples' thoughts on APA-accredited online programs? Just to clarify, I am speaking of online study in the didactic phase, NOT the practicum or internship phases - this wouldn't be possible. Therefore, these programs are ACTUALLY hybrid programs.

Final thoughts - Gotta love those GradPlus loans!! : / #studentloandebt

Is there a question here?

Also, I would like to be able to utilize the APPIC system for practicum/internship/residency placement. I find it abhorrent that the faculty at the non-APA accredited schools do not assist or have the infrastructure for this.

Why?

 

[singasongofjoy]

If the question is what do people think about those specific online programs you're referencing, a quick search of the forums would probably pull up quite a bit of info. But I'm not sure if that was the question or not.

 

[Justanothergrad]

None of what you mention (faculty from ivy league, more programs doing this, etc.) means that the programs are of equal quality to B&M doctoral programs. Quite frankly, they aren't. Part of this is because coursework is such a minimal part of doctoral education, and so not being part of active research labs/brown bags/guest lectures/etc makes you less exposed to the material. APA accreditation is the minimum bar for what is acceptable, and it is pretty low in my opinion. You won't find a lot of folks on this forum (if any?) who advocate for programs that consistently produce less desirable outcomes (licensure rates, EPPP pass rates, match rates, etc.), particularly given the high costs associated with those poor outcomes.

I think that was the question?

also

remaining an ABD

that is just called having a program with people who don't graduate. ABD isn't a thing you write down... although I did hear about someone who tried to claim that as their title: John Doe, ABD.

 

[erg923]

In reality it means "All But the Doctorate"....which is like, ya know, kinda important on the job market.

 

[deleted343839]

Obviously, as pertains to practicum and internship, the candidate has to work in the field. What are peoples' thoughts on APA-accredited online programs?

They don't exist, to my knowledge.

Edited: No others (aside from Fielding) exist.

 

[deleted343839]

Honestly, I don't see the difference as long as the information is being learned.

You're not just there to passively acquire information. That is not the point of graduate school.

 

[WisNeuro]

They don't exist, to my knowledge.

0.
I thought Fielding was, or at least used to be. Although, from the few people I've met that "attended" there, they should not be.

 

[PsyDr]

1) You need to work on your writing skills. If you write like this in a professional arena, you'll be damaging your reputation. In a forensic context, this would be horrible.

2) A degree without a license is useless. Especially an expensive degree.

3) Whether you see the difference in educational models or not is substantially less important than if others do. Other peoples' opinions about a program > your opinion about a program. Kinda a thing you should have learned about in test construction. And from interacting with other professionals.

4) Think about this: You're trying to get into a profession which requires face to face experience. And your program doesn't provide that. One might think that has implications.

5) No one in the profession cares if you find you have free time. Training is inconvenient.

 

[erg923]

1) You need to work on your writing skills. If you write like this in a professional arena, you'll be damaging your reputation. In a forensic context, this would be horrible.

Made me think of this.

 

[Justanothergrad]

You're not just there to passively acquire information. That is not the point of graduate school.

This is why students/aspiring students who are not in the field are not aware of what should be considered standards for practice. They just don't have a good sense of what 'should' be learned.

 

[deleted106747]

In reality it means "All But the Doctorate"....which is like, ya know, kinda important on the job market.

All But Dissertation

 

[erg923]

All But Dissertation

but you don't have a doctorate without the dissertation finished, so it really means "I don't have my doctorate yet, but I like conveying my progress toward it by making up a useless acronym."

 

[deleted106747]

but you don't have a doctorate without the dissertation finished, so it really means "I don't have my doctorate yet, but I like conveying my progress toward it by making up a useless acronym."

sure, but the useless acronym stands for "all but dissertation."

 

[deleted343839]

0.
I thought Fielding was, or at least used to be. Although, from the few people I've met that "attended" there, they should not be.

All right, I looked it up. APA sets a very low bar at one year in full-time residence as a minimum standard for accreditation. So, in the hypothetical, 2/3 of your "academic years" could be distance-based.

I just don't know how to wrap my head around this. I always spent more time in my lab and/or practicum sites than on didactics. What do they do in these programs?

 

[singasongofjoy]

My rationale is due to having been enrolled in an online PhD Clinical Psych program and, after realizing that it was no APA accredited, I transferred to Forensic Psych because I do not believe in wasting work that was already performed. Also, I would like to be able to utilize the APPIC system for practicum/internship/residency placement. I find it abhorrent that the faculty at the non-APA accredited schools do not assist or have the infrastructure for this. The result would be a candidate remaining an ABD or having to transfer to a different school for, usually, an entirely new doctorate.

You might see it as "not wasting work that was already performed" by transferring to a Forensic program, but if what you ultimately want to do requires an APA approved clinical program then it seems to me rather like you've wasted both time and money that you could've spent on a (different, better) clinical program. Sometimes you've got to just cut your losses. Too late for that now but something to keep in mind for the future. Regarding your comment about it being abhorrent that faculty at non-APA accredited schools not assisting in match - well, that's one of the reasons they are not accredited. As others have said, APA accreditation is a relatively low bar. I'm still not sure what your initial question was, but I think it is time for you to take some time to seriously introspect about what you really want to do with the rest of your life. If anything worth doing is worth doing well, you're going to want to pursue GOOD training that is recognized by others as such. As previously mentioned, what others think about a program is ultimately more important than your n=1 opinion, particularly since at times we can all be great at rationalizing an easier choice to ourselves (e.g., online programs). So figure out what you ultimately want to do and find a way to get there that is going to give you good training and also not leave you sinking in debt forever. That might involve not jumping straight into another PhD program hot off the heels of your current one.

 

[WisNeuro]

All right, I looked it up. APA sets a very low bar at one year in full-time residence as a minimum standard for accreditation. So, in the hypothetical, 2/3 of your "academic years" could be distance-based.

I just don't know how to wrap my head around this. I always spent more time in my lab and/or practicum sites than on didactics. What do they do in these programs?

Fool gullible students into paying an exorbitant amount of money for a nearly useless degree.

 

[deleted343839]

Fool gullible students into paying an exorbitant amount of money for a nearly useless degree.

But I'm really curious to know what a "day in the life" is like when you don't do all the face-to-face, hands-on things that most of us associate with grad school. Do you just come home from your day job and plug in for a couple of hours?

Fielding is the only program like this (you were right, it's still accredited) and 40-something percent of its students got into some kind of APA-accredited internship in the last two years. In the big picture that's a dismal outcome for any program, but I'm really curious how they managed to not do worse. So many questions...

 

[PsyDr]

Fool gullible students into paying an exorbitant amount of money for a nearly useless degree.

IMO: They're not gullible. It's a personality trait.

Give up something now to get a reward later? Naw. Have the rules apply to you? Not necessary. Programs cost a ton? Probably means you'll earn a bunch so that's of no concern. Stats say negative things? Anecdotes about outliers are more indicative out your outcome. People say negative things about the identity? Use signifiers from the professor's identities which do not come from the same training.

 

[psych.meout]

Hey, everyone! A little bit of background: I am currently finishing my didactic phase and entering my research and dissertation next year, PhD Forensic Psychology; I expect to be finished/conferred sometime in 2019. Immediately following this, I intend to enroll in an APA-accredited PhD Clinical Psych program. My rationale is due to having been enrolled in an online PhD Clinical Psych program and, after realizing that it was no APA accredited, I transferred to Forensic Psych because I do not believe in wasting work that was already performed. Also, I would like to be able to utilize the APPIC system for practicum/internship/residency placement. I find it abhorrent that the faculty at the non-APA accredited schools do not assist or have the infrastructure for this. The result would be a candidate remaining an ABD or having to transfer to a different school for, usually, an entirely new doctorate. I wanted to get other peoples' perspective on this. On one end, people ask me, 'why not just transfer to the Clinical Psych program now?' while on the other (and this is my train of thought), 'you might as well finish the program you've already invested so much time with'

Is anyone else in a similar situation? Oh, by the way, there is an online school that has been APA accredited for over 20 years and 2 other programs that will gain accreditation next year. The tide is turning. Some of these professors come from Ivy League institutions, as well. As pertains to the didactic phase of any degree of study, I don't see an issue with this. I earned my first masters degree from an Ivy League school (Cornell University). Honestly, I don't see the difference as long as the information is being learned. Following my time at four different traditional schools, Ithaca College, Cornell University, Columbus State University and Arizona State University, resulting in my BA, MS, and MAEd, the only difference I perceive is that I can do so much more with my time. Obviously, as pertains to practicum and internship, the candidate has to work in the field. What are peoples' thoughts on APA-accredited online programs? Just to clarify, I am speaking of online study in the didactic phase, NOT the practicum or internship phases - this wouldn't be possible. Therefore, these programs are ACTUALLY hybrid programs.

Final thoughts - Gotta love those GradPlus loans!! : / #studentloandebt

Would you want your psychologist to have completed part of their training online? Why or why not?

Would you want your physician to have completed part of their training online? Why or why not?

Would you be willing to disclose to your patients before every session that you completed part of your training online? Why or why not?

What are you doing with all that remaining time? The rest of us in traditional programs are using it towards other, related educational opportunities, especially research. Is this what you're doing?

IMO: They're not gullible. It's a personality trait.

Give up something now to get a reward later? Naw. Have the rules apply to you? Not necessary. Programs cost a ton? Probably means you'll earn a bunch so that's of no concern. Stats say negative things? Anecdotes about outliers are more indicative out your outcome. People say negative things about the identity? Use signifiers from the professor's identities which do not come from the same training.

I wonder if any personality traits correlate with gullibleness. High in Openness and Agreeableness, but low in Conscientiousness?

 

[cara susanna]

Just to clarify, I am speaking of online study in the didactic phase, NOT the practicum or internship phases - this wouldn't be possible. Therefore, these programs are ACTUALLY hybrid programs.

I can't imagine practicum being separate from graduate training.

 

[psych.meout]

I can't imagine practicum being separate from graduate training.

Yeah, how would a program know what kind of training you're receiving and remediate any problems as early as possible?

It seems like a huge public hazard by unleashing providers with little consistent training oversight onto the public.

 

[PsyDr]

Would you want your psychologist to have completed part of their training online? Why or why not?

Would you want your physician to have completed part of their training online? Why or why not?

Would you be willing to disclose to your patients before every session that you completed part of your training online? Why or why not?

What are you doing with all that remaining time? The rest of us in traditional programs are using it towards other, related educational opportunities, especially research. Is this what you're doing?

I wonder if any personality traits correlate with gullibleness. High in Openness and Agreeableness, but low in Conscientiousness?

Sort of. In the 5 factor model, openness is correlated with iq. IQ is correlated with suggestibility. Agreeableness is correlated with gullibility.

 

[Justanothergrad]

But I'm really curious to know what a "day in the life" is like when you don't do all the face-to-face, hands-on things that most of us associate with grad school. Do you just come home from your day job and plug in for a couple of hours?

I assume mass netflix binge. But like, worse than I would when I was in grad school.

Sort of. In the 5 factor model, openness is correlated with iq. IQ is correlated with suggestibility. Agreeableness is correlated with gullibility.

You don't need to walk the OE domain to IQ to correlate it with suggestibility even. Tellegen's absorption scale has a pretty strong relationship on its own.

 

[deleted343839]

I assume mass netflix binge. But like, worse than I would when I was in grad school.

The PGY-1's these days tell me they hardly ever go to class. They just stream all their lectures. But I kind of appreciate having been in grad school when using Netflix meant getting red paper envelopes in the mail, and "on demand" meant leaving the house to go to Blockbuster.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Driving to Blockbuster was my regular study break activity.

 

[PsyDr]

I assume mass netflix binge. But like, worse than I would when I was in grad school.


You don't need to walk the OE domain to IQ to correlate it with suggestibility even. Tellegen's absorption scale has a pretty strong relationship on its own.

Good to know. I'm not a personality psychologist. Only know about suggestibility from the forensic aspect.

 

[TheEnemyWithin]

Is there a question here?



Why?

Well, ERG, I was curious as to what traditional PhD students/graduates thought of the didactic phase - this is the 'book learning' prior to the R&D phase. By the way, 'ABD' means 'all but dissertation'. This infers the individual in question has completed all didactic work up to the dissertation. Even for those that did not finish, it signifies they have completed a significant amount of academic work at the 8000-level.

Also, I was hoping for more of a reaction at my alma mater in reference to my MS Psychology - Cornell University. It's not like I couldn't have gone back for my PhD - I had a 4.0 through both of my masters degrees (honestly, not really challenged). I am an independent thinker. Graduate education is intended to confer mastery and elicit a CREATIVE effort from the student, to contribute to that great body of literature and knowledge. The only difference is that I do not need a well- respected individual in their field and in academia pontificating from a podium (or, as is more likely, a small group discussion) to receive the same information that another psychologist received in their program. I also do not like the idea of riding that committee chair's/advisor's coat tails as a research assistant, only to write my dissertation based heavily on their research.

Yet another problem with (specifically) Cornell is the department and faculty pushing a 'progressive program' - and this DOES NOT refer to progress through discipline and practice in the field. This refers to the liberal politicization of academia. I refuse to play a part to this game as it sickens me. I had plenty of profs at the undergrad level that pushed my buttons and who were not surprised when I took a few years off to enlist and deploy. I ended up serving for 8 yrs AD, 3 deployments and working as a federal LEO for 2-1/2 yrs (not counting academy) before my resignation. These days, I choose not to face criticism for and disrespect of my service by these sycophants. I was actually told by one professor that she was intimidated merely because I had served and had engaged in combat. At Cornell, I debated similar points and issues with a professor who made the short list for the Nobel Prize to the point that he withdrew. Of course, merely stooping to the level of the 'lesser being' was entertainment enough... and it almost got me expelled, but I would not apologize.

To sum it up, I think that those in academia have taken a political stance and set against those that do not conform with their beliefs and there is a certain attitude of superiority that is associated with this 'progressivism'. Anyway, keep up the good fight. Also, don't worry, I won't have a chance to hold any position that rivals your own: virtually all positions in forensic psychology require an APA-accredited clinical psychology doctorate. They need to be able to interview, treat, make reasonable recommendations and provide expert testimony that stems from clinical experience and generally accepted practices and knowledge. Oh - and I believe the initial question was stated somewhere on the web page. Take care.

 

[TheEnemyWithin]

Sort of. In the 5 factor model, openness is correlated with iq. IQ is correlated with suggestibility. Agreeableness is correlated with gullibility.

mehhhh.... tell me what you come across.... I have a feeling that any correlation between intelligence quotient and gullibility would be spurious, at best, if not non-existent. Although, I am not an 'agreeable' nor easily influenced individual. I question everything. I've been described as 'difficult'. But...hey!!! I'm not boring and always original : )

 

[DynamicDidactic]

What happened in the past 6 months?

 

[WisNeuro]

What happened in the past 6 months?

Apparently the need for pseudointellectual masturbation increased?

 

[deleted343839]

What happened in the past 6 months?

Well, persuading a professor to withdraw his name from a Nobel Prize short list doesn't happen overnight...

 

[psych.meout]

Well, ERG, I was curious as to what traditional PhD students/graduates thought of the didactic phase - this is the 'book learning' prior to the R&D phase. By the way, 'ABD' means 'all but dissertation'. This infers the individual in question has completed all didactic work up to the dissertation. Even for those that did not finish, it signifies they have completed a significant amount of academic work at the 8000-level.

Also, I was hoping for more of a reaction at my alma mater in reference to my MS Psychology - Cornell University. It's not like I couldn't have gone back for my PhD - I had a 4.0 through both of my masters degrees (honestly, not really challenged). I am an independent thinker. Graduate education is intended to confer mastery and elicit a CREATIVE effort from the student, to contribute to that great body of literature and knowledge. The only difference is that I do not need a well- respected individual in their field and in academia pontificating from a podium (or, as is more likely, a small group discussion) to receive the same information that another psychologist received in their program. I also do not like the idea of riding that committee chair's/advisor's coat tails as a research assistant, only to write my dissertation based heavily on their research.

Yet another problem with (specifically) Cornell is the department and faculty pushing a 'progressive program' - and this DOES NOT refer to progress through discipline and practice in the field. This refers to the liberal politicization of academia. I refuse to play a part to this game as it sickens me. I had plenty of profs at the undergrad level that pushed my buttons and who were not surprised when I took a few years off to enlist and deploy. I ended up serving for 8 yrs AD, 3 deployments and working as a federal LEO for 2-1/2 yrs (not counting academy) before my resignation. These days, I choose not to face criticism for and disrespect of my service by these sycophants. I was actually told by one professor that she was intimidated merely because I had served and had engaged in combat. At Cornell, I debated similar points and issues with a professor who made the short list for the Nobel Prize to the point that he withdrew. Of course, merely stooping to the level of the 'lesser being' was entertainment enough... and it almost got me expelled, but I would not apologize.

To sum it up, I think that those in academia have taken a political stance and set against those that do not conform with their beliefs and there is a certain attitude of superiority that is associated with this 'progressivism'. Anyway, keep up the good fight. Also, don't worry, I won't have a chance to hold any position that rivals your own: virtually all positions in forensic psychology require an APA-accredited clinical psychology doctorate. They need to be able to interview, treat, make reasonable recommendations and provide expert testimony that stems from clinical experience and generally accepted practices and knowledge. Oh - and I believe the initial question was stated somewhere on the web page. Take care.

What even is this?

 

[ClinicalABA]

I'm not convinced that the OPer is really concerned with getting any real or contructive response, but here goes anyways.

I was curious as to what traditional PhD students/graduates thought of the didactic phase - this is the 'book learning' prior to the R&D phase

It didn't really work this way in my "traditional" program. There was no split between difference phases- it all happened together, from the beginning. Started with your first semester, you had classes, clinical team (rotated between topics- e.g., anxiety disorders; children's team each semester or annually), and research team. You also had a teaching and/or research assistantship, for which you recieved funding. Academic classes tailed off a little by your fourth year, but there were still some classes. Most classes were not lectures related to conveying factual information- you were expected to read the book/articles and class was dedicated to discussion and, where appropriate, debate (though some subjects- like physiology and stats- had less discussion and debate). First year students spend a lot of early clinic team time behind the one way mirror in the trainin clinic, observing sessions (often with the supervising clinician, who would be providing feedback and training regarding what we were observing on the other side of the glass). For research team, your expected to be putting together your thesis topic and project right from the beginning. It certainly wasn't academics first and the clinical research activities later.

Graduate education is intended to confer mastery and elicit a CREATIVE effort from the student, to contribute to that great body of literature and knowledge.

I found that is was more towards confering proficiency with a wide variety of skills (clinical, research, teaching), and mastery of a few (related to your chosen research area). Creativity was a part of this.

The only difference is that I do not need a well- respected individual in their field and in academia pontificating from a podium (or, as is more likely, a small group discussion) to receive the same information that another psychologist received in their program.

I didn't experience a lot of "pontification" (though there was some every now and then- particularly in non-clinical pre-requisite survey-type courses). Most professors had expectation that you would be contributing something new to the class/meeting/etc. We were treated more like peers who lacked specific knowledge and experiences, than as empty students who needed information put into them.

I also do not like the idea of riding that committee chair's/advisor's coat tails as a research assistant, only to write my dissertation based heavily on their research.

We were expected to produce original research for our thesis and dissertation. Not sure about "riding her coatails" as that implies some degree of benefit without work, but I did do some research for my advisor, including some of the dirty work (at that time, alot of digging through and photocopying actual physical journals). While it wasn't always the most glamorous work, I got paid to do it (that's the research assistantship I alluded to earlier) and that payment was part of what qualified us for a tuition waiver.

the department and faculty pushing a 'progressive program' - and this DOES NOT refer to progress through discipline and practice in the field. This refers to the liberal politicization of academia. I refuse to play a part to this game as it sickens me.

It does seem that college campuses in general are more likely to have a liberal. progressive vibe to them. It can be important to distinguish between having a professor who is a liberal and having a professor who espouses liberalism and requires it from her/his students. I can imagine that my program- though i don't think it was "pushy"- would have been less comfortable for someone conservative in nature than it was for me, as more of a liberal/progressive. If just being around liberals and being exposed to progressive ideology is uncomfortable for you, chances are you are going to have a difficult time on a lot (most?) big university campuses outside of select areas of the country.

These days, I choose not to face criticism for and disrespect of my service by these sycophants.

I my opinion, such criticism and lack of respect for your services is innapropriate, and in our field (in which such a large amount of training, clinical work, and research occurs at VAs) I think we should be particularly welcoming and supportive of veterans. Sorry that was your experience.

To sum it up, I think that those in academia have taken a political stance and set against those that do not conform with their beliefs and there is a certain attitude of superiority that is associated with this 'progressivism'.

I obviously don't have access to those in academia who you have interacted with in the past, so I can't confirm or deny your experiences. However, and I'm just trying to be honest and a little constructive here- your language in your posts gives off this same "attitude of superiority" that you seem to be complaining about.

 

[psych.meout]

I my opinion, such criticism and lack of respect for your services is innapropriate, and in our field (in which such a large amount of training, clinical work, and research occurs at VAs) I think we should be particularly welcoming and supportive of veterans. Sorry that was your experience.

I obviously don't have access to those in academia who you have interacted with in the past, so I can't confirm or deny your experiences. However, and I'm just trying to be honest and a little constructive here- your language in your posts gives off this same "attitude of superiority" that you seem to be complaining about.

Based on OP's other comments here, your response was far too charitable to them. The "Nobel prize" and "expulsion" section paint a less than kind portrait of their interactions with other people whom they deem to be wrong or holding the wrong sociopolitical beliefs.

 

[erg923]

. I was actually told by one professor that she was intimidated merely because I had served and had engaged in combat. At Cornell, I debated similar points and issues with a professor who made the short list for the Nobel Prize to the point that he withdrew. Of course, merely stooping to the level of the 'lesser being' was entertainment enough... and it almost got me expelled, but I would not apologize.

I see.

You seem to think you're already the cats pajamas...so why the perceived need to continue on with any more formal education and training?

 

[ClinicalABA]

Based on OP's other comments here, your response was far too charitable to them. The "Nobel prize" and "expulsion" section paint a less than kind portrait of their interactions with other people whom they deem to be wrong or holding the wrong sociopolitical beliefs.

Yeah, I know- Pretty certain the OP was more of a challenging (vs. information seeking) post. I was really repsonding to other students/potential students who may (a) have the impression that grad school is just a bunch more classes before you get a job, and (b) think that an online degree makes senses 'cause it's just more book-lernin' taught by a bunch of egg-heads. I do, however, try to keep it mildly civil when responding to students/potential students, as I think there is sometimes the tendency for them to miss the point of the argument when it's delivered in a slightly more aggressive manner.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Troll alert. Thankfully, I must have missed this one first time around back in September. I was probably;y doing something really important like taking my fish out for a walk.

 

[TheEnemyWithin]

I see.

You seem to think you're already the cats pajamas...so why the perceived need to continue on with any more formal education and training?

lol...well, erg, I have not yet re-invented the light-bulb or sliced bread... Quite frankly, I'd rather make my contributions to society in this field - this implies work, I am a worker, although I cannot say that I have ever 'loved' any profession I have worked in (military, education, law enforcement, athletics) nor would I listening to others' problems and vesting a personal interest in initiating and enacting the recommended algorithms to see them get better. I am a sort of indifferent cat who, personally, could care less. It serves me well and I believe it serves any future patients even better - the best clinicians in any helping field do not allow their search for the cure for their patients' maladies to be hobbled by their emotional attachments. Furthermore, after I have exhausted every pathway for the benefit of the patient, I do not feel guilty that I could have done something more. It's a win-win. Now before you ask me how high I score on Hare's checklist, just consider those characteristics professionally and how useful they really are in a successful career - one in which the patients have benefited immensely and provider has attained some goals, lofty or otherwise. the latter makes no difference to me as I actually despise praise (for myself) - I never attended any of my graduations (yep, even Cornell), have 'skipped out' on awards ceremonies and would rather be figuring out a new problem than celebrating one I have solved.

So, hey, how long were you practicing before you became an administrator? Is there anything you regret or would have done differently on the way? What are thoughts on pedagogy after having practiced for several years? What do you believe are the most important details to convey to the 'up-and-coming' cohort of psychologists? The most important concept to impress upon them? While I have my own opinions, I welcome others', as is the true nature of academia - no safe spaces, my friend. Cheers.

Oh - hey, and what is your take on approachability? Just general thoughts, your personally take, based on experience, not something we read in IPT texts and manuals. Thank you, E!

 

[TheEnemyWithin]

Troll alert. Thankfully, I must have missed this one first time around back in September. I was probably;y doing something really important like taking my fish out for a walk.

Hey, smalltown, no troll, I was merely seeking opinions : )) I am a fierce academic and scholar in the psych community, as many in here are. I hope he is not too heavy - the larger the fish, the larger the bowl and H2O weighs in at 8lb/gal ; ))

 

[TheEnemyWithin]

All right, I looked it up. APA sets a very low bar at one year in full-time residence as a minimum standard for accreditation. So, in the hypothetical, 2/3 of your "academic years" could be distance-based.

I just don't know how to wrap my head around this. I always spent more time in my lab and/or practicum sites than on didactics. What do they do in these programs?

Hey, MamaP, although I am currently in an online program, now very close to dissertation, I do agree that there is a benefit to actually experiencing and practicing what is learned - application. In the 90s, Harvard was the first medical school that started this from Day 1 in their teaching hospital (regular hospital but so designated 'teaching hospital' because MD students were learning). Johns Hopkins soon followed, then Cornell (Weill) and so continued the trend... However, I am speaking to just the didactic portion. Of course, more could be added as 'not required by the accrediting body (APA) but it benefits your future application, so we are going to require it'. Sure, that is noble and makes the university appear as if it is performing its due diligence - to turn out graduates who meet core competencies - and go beyond that by being able to say, 'they have already been seeing patients for X number of years, so they know more than the minimum.

I see what you are saying and, personally, I think it comes down to how responsible the individual is in their own academic career. Do they attend extra lab/practicum sessions if they KNOW they need to? Do they grasp how the theoretical meets the application standards? These are recommendations for administrators as they are policy-based. As pertains to my research and dissertation, I cannot do anything without my IRB approval; I must be permitted. Students' levels of attendance and answers must be judged permissible by faculty. What, how and how much the professors require is permitted by chairs and colleges to fit accrediting standards of the licensing body in question (ultimately, states that may or may not rely upon APA accreditation).

Mind you, if you think this is appalling, wait until 10 years from now when those who have only ever known the digital world since birth begin to enter graduate school and, subsequently, the profession. That will be the eye-opener! It's just change - I remember when the only thing I used the computer for was email and word-processing - usually went to the campus computer lab because in '98 (my Freshman undergrad year) I did not see the need to own a computer. The public internet (worldwideweb) was still in its 2nd generation - still in the arcane days. Libraries were still enormous buildings filled with stacks and Dewey Decimal card drawers were still a thing (although on their way out, I actually liked those...). Anyway, the 2/3 online... yeah, it's just change.

 

[TheEnemyWithin]

Well, persuading a professor to withdraw his name from a Nobel Prize short list doesn't happen overnight...

Oh, I never persuaded him to do anything... I believe he earned it in the mid-70s... This was a clash between his 'I do not believe you belong here because you have done things that offend my own political beliefs' and my '...yeah, I'm just here to learn from you, not adopt your beer-goggles-for-Hillary branding'. Unfortunately Hillary Clinton visited Cornell many times during her time as a Senator, although I did thoroughly enjoy Bill's speech at convocation in 2004. My dad was a professor there and liked her, she spoke with him on numerous occasions (he was a true-blue bleeding-heart democrat). Anyhow, I disagreed with all these people. Nobody should be asserting their power in an attempt to change an opinion - 'if you want this grade or this degree, you need to declare, in your writings that your are in agreement with my opinions' - yeah, that's wrong. I believe my first-year grad tuition/room/board bill was in the $55k range. That's why I took my masters and did not stay for the PhD from that institution. Only later did I find that I could have filed a 1983 violation and for damages, as my civil liberties were being infringed upon.

 

[TheEnemyWithin]

But I'm really curious to know what a "day in the life" is like when you don't do all the face-to-face, hands-on things that most of us associate with grad school. Do you just come home from your day job and plug in for a couple of hours?

Fielding is the only program like this (you were right, it's still accredited) and 40-something percent of its students got into some kind of APA-accredited internship in the last two years. In the big picture that's a dismal outcome for any program, but I'm really curious how they managed to not do worse. So many questions...

Hey, MamaP, the only reason 40% of the students got into APA-accredited internships using their super-special-we-are-holier-than-thou database is because 1 - not all students are clinical, counselling or school counselling PhD candidates and 2 - there is an attrition rate. Is it 40%? I thought the actual matriculation into APA internships was in the low-30s.

Ahh...nope, I read a lot, this is a full-time venture for me. I far exceed the requirement for my assignments and work as if I were physically attending. As I have been a full-time student I haven't worked in years unless you count the long-term subbing (secondary) and when I taught part-time (it was full-time but I took a position that was only allotted .75 units of compensation for a year when I lived in Scottsdale). I cannot speak for other students, though. I know many that I have met at consortia and on-site practica work regular jobs; and by regular I mean law enforcement, teachers, program administrators in various fields. When I worked federal law enforcement several years ago, I had a heavy OT mandate. This meant part-time online coursework at nights in what I was studying at the time. People have different situations and it is not always practical to resign and go back to school FT, especially when they have families to support.

 

[TheEnemyWithin]

I see.

You seem to think you're already the cats pajamas...so why the perceived need to continue on with any more formal education and training?

Oh, E, my 'lesser being' reference was his apparent perception of me - imparting him stooping to my (student) level to take a jab at me.

 

[TheEnemyWithin]

I can't imagine practicum being separate from graduate training.

lol....you never know what people who have not sought information about online programs may assume. In the event they have not sought this information, they have only their own clinical program to compare it to... oh! And those prestigious universities that have been around for 150+ years to tell people that these programs are garbage and that feel they need to continue to substantiate themselves after centuries of existence. After having been established, you don't do that. That is negative marketing strategy. But it is because they realize that times are changing with the technology. Fewer people are matriculating to on-campus programs, progressively, over the past several years (one reason for the outlandish tuition hikes) and more people to online schools.

So, really, I believe most of the concern is to get the numbers back to those universities. Ultimately, this serves Universities. The APA recommends credentials for licensing. What if a new body came into existence, was accepted by one or two states, steadily grew over 10-15 years, challenging APA's authority and, ultimately, became larger - then they changed educational standards in the field, performance standards, core competencies - not throwing out all standards the profession was built on, mind you; but challenged the status quo of being 'APA-certified', 'APA-accredited'... people would go ape-****. The APA is a business, like any other, paid by Universities to continue to substantiate their own position as 'the centers of learning'. What do you think happens when a school's program is evaluated? Money changes hands and it is in the direction of the APA. That, my friend, is a conflict of interest and a hypocrisy if I have ever heard one. Think about it.

 

[foreverbull]

Maybe I might a little late to this party, but I've experienced a few undergraduate and graduate classes online, and there is absolutely a difference in quality and depth when compared to face-to-face, in my opinion. You can more easily BS your way through online formats, particularly when the tests/quizzes are online as well (lending themselves to open-book testing). You can pick and choose what to read based on assignments alone and ignore the rest. To some extent, you can do this in face-to-face classes, but not to the same level when you have realtime discussion in a classroom on a regular basis and can get called on at any moment. The realtime discussion is crucial, in my opinion. Online classes are like online dating, in my opinion: you get some benefit, but not the full effect until you're sitting with the person in front of you face to face.

In the broader picture, taking face-to-face classes alongside practicum and working assistantships/research labs in the department serve to reinforce the learnings in each setting, which I think is part of why the graduate training at brick and mortar institutions is so effective: each piece of the puzzle adds to the whole and they complement each other along the way. My assistantship allowed me to work around therapists in our university clinic and hear about cases while learning the logistics of community mental health and measuring outcomes, while my predissertation research examined our clinic's therapists and ability to form alliances. Meanwhile my practicum let me use my skills to counsel and get feedback/supervision to improve, and finally my coursework exposed me to counseling outcomes research and other areas that made me a better research consumer and prepared me for practice. Working alongside my cohort and seeing them regularly created a strong social support system that kept us all grounded and connected.
Each component reinforced each other quite nicely, and I just don't see how this translates to an online format with disjointed pieces of the puzzle.

As far as APA goes, it created a baseline standard of training to protect the public from bad therapists and bad programs, and yes, there are some valid criticisms of APA as a body, but it's the only major body at bat for psychologists with a measure of respect and recognition by the public. You can complain about it, but it's given legitimacy to our field and protected the field from bad programs that don't meet even a low bar of training standards.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

People have different situations and it is not always practical to resign and go back to school FT, especially when they have families to support.

Doctoral training is not meant for everyone in every situation. The minimum standard set by the field is full-time practice at an APA-acred program, an APA-acred internship, and post-doc. It needs to be a higher bar IMHO, but the field is having a race to the bottom bc of for-profit businesses lobbying for “alternative paths”...much like “alternative facts” I fear.

Would you want your surgeon to only go to school part-time online? They decided they knew what they needed instead of leaders in their field. How about an Oncologist managing a family member’s Cancer treatment that worked full-time in another profession and only did schooling on the side?

 

[WisNeuro]

 

[psych.meout]

So, really, I believe most of the concern is to get the numbers back to those universities. Ultimately, this serves Universities. The APA recommends credentials for licensing. What if a new body came into existence, was accepted by one or two states, steadily grew over 10-15 years, challenging APA's authority and, ultimately, became larger - then they changed educational standards in the field, performance standards, core competencies - not throwing out all standards the profession was built on, mind you; but challenged the status quo of being 'APA-certified', 'APA-accredited'... people would go ape-****. The APA is a business, like any other, paid by Universities to continue to substantiate their own position as 'the centers of learning'. What do you think happens when a school's program is evaluated? Money changes hands and it is in the direction of the APA. That, my friend, is a conflict of interest and a hypocrisy if I have ever heard one. Think about it.

Huh, PCSAS exists and we don't seen people "going ape-****," do we?

The APA is a business, like any other, paid by Universities to continue to substantiate their own position as 'the centers of learning'. What do you think happens when a school's program is evaluated? Money changes hands and it is in the direction of the APA. That, my friend, is a conflict of interest and a hypocrisy if I have ever heard one. Think about it.

Ah, yes, more of that paranoid BS that the process of minimal standards in the field is some kind of conspiracy to keep out anyone who doesn't want to pay-for-play with the big, bad APA. It's totally not that these "hybrid," online, and for-profit programs are garbage that can't even meet the paltry standards required by the APA. Hint: most people here don't actually like the APA, but not for the reasons you're giving here.

 

[PsyDr]

Just so I understand the process: we get asked our opinion, give it, then get a long response about why our opinions are wrong?

I also don’t like grilled cheese.