School Psychology- Masters Vs. PsyD/PhD

[T120]

Hey everyone, I noticed a similar thread to this, but I'm new here so forgive me if I am posting out of place. I've been reading this site for the past week or so and it seems to be a really great place to seek answers and advice.

I find myself in somewhat of a predicament lately as I approach the end of my current masters program. I have not always been the best student. I received a bachelors degree from a pretty well known University in 2009 torn between a decision of law school and pursuing further study in psychology. Due to a variety of factors, including some pretty heavy family problems mixed with some immaturity, my GPA was a 2.7. I know, I'm embarrassed for myself, but I do feel I've grown significantly since then. In the time between then and now, I sought out an internship at the local court house in the family court sector. This was interesting and surprisingly led me to want to pursue psychology more than law due to seeing how I could be helping out these kids and families.

Anyway, I ended up being accepted into a counseling program. I must admit, I did this for two reasons.. First, because I figured it would keep my options open as a good baseboard for further study in psychology OR law.. and second, I knew I had to do something to make up for that terrible undergraduate GPA. Yes, I understand that grad GPA is usually inflated, but if anything, at least I can prove my ability to pursue post undergraduate education. I finish this May and currently have a 3.91 GPA. I'm currently interning in a setting that is enabling me to be exposed to clinical and child/adolescent experience.

Sorry for the babble, but I figure some background may help to understand. Anyway, to make a long story short, I'd like to become a school psychologist. I've been researching programs. I'm stuck between whether or not I should do a masters solely or enter into a PsyD/PhD program. Here are the issues/questions:

1. I am by no means a great standardized test taker. Some programs do not require the GRE, all the PsyD programs do. I am scheduled to take the Psych GRE next month, and the general shortly after. I'm scoring decent on the subject and will begin general study next week.
2. Since I do not have a great GPA and most PsyD/PhD are very competitive, would it be smarter to go for the masters and either work toward my certification (in NY, two years post degree required for licensure) or try directly into a PsyD program. Several programs that have terminal masters degrees seem that they would provide a good base for a PsyD, but I worry about this taking more time than going right into a doctorate program due to transfer credits, etc.
3. I am not so much into heavy research as I am gaining practical experience, which is why I like the idea of a PsyD.
4. I am considering a PsyD, mostly in School-Clinical because I feel it's a very versatile degree. For example, I could work in an educational setting or clinical setting.. but in the future perhaps I could with my own clients after building up experience and my own caseloads, etc. (not necessarily in private practice off the bat) and perhaps even teach at the university level. I just don't know if I should take it one step at a time. But to make it clear : I DO want to work with children/adolescents at the educational level.

My main focus is obtaining admission to Pace University's joint School-Clinical program. I am not sure if I should apply for the MsEd degree (the first 3 years are identical to the PsyD program) and then apply to the PsyD program after year 3, which is an option for students in the program. or just apply directly to the PsyD program. I feel like this would give me more leverage in getting into their PsyD program and also prepare me for what is to come.

Basically, my main question is, am I crazy for wanting to even go for a doctorate if I do not want to do large amounts of research? Like I said, it mainly would be to broaden my career options down the line. I understand the pay difference may not be as large as I'd like but at least I'd have more options (especially being able to eventually be licensed as a school psychologist and licensed psychologist after clinical supervision if I wanted to eventually go that route). I want to do many different things and not just therapy, so I've ruled out a LMHC or social work.

I understand the risks and costs and am prepared to take them on. I guess I just need guidance. Anyone who can offer any insight, I would greatly appreciate it. Sorry for the long post!!

Thank You!!
T

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[FadedC]

Well your GREs will play a large part in determing how competitive you are for doctoral programs, so you could wait to take them and see what happens. The regular GREs are going to be required for any doctoral program, but some do not require the psych GRE.

In terms of grades I was in a similar situation to you, with low undergrad and high MA GPA although my undergrad was much longer ago. One would hope that they would put much more weight on recent grades, but really who knows.

There is generally a little less research focus in school psych, though that can vary by school. There is also generally much less research focus in PsyD programs, I don't remember being under the impression that the Pace PsyD program did much research when i interviewed there. Pace unfortunately was famous among people who interviewed around the same time as me for giving an incredibly negative/unfriendly vibe during their interview. That was a few years ago though, so it may have changed. And of course they could be fine once you actually get in for all we know.

 

[madpsych78]

School psychologist here...

School psychology is one of the few subspecializations of psychology where you can practice and call yourself a psychologist without a doctorate. Typically, the minimum degree requirement to be a practicing school psychologist is a specialist degree (equivalent to master's plus 30).

If your intention after getting your degree is to practice school psychology in the schools, a specialist degree would work just fine and you could get certified in the state where you want to practice. School psychologists with a doctorate typically do not make significantly much more than psychologists with a specialist degree in the public schools, and depending on the district, may fall under the same lane in a salary schedule. For example, in one district where I worked, the highest lane that was offered was a master's plus 45 -- no separate lane for PhD-level educators. Again, much of this depends on the district and the state (I live in Illinois.)

I would go for the doctorate if you want to practice school psychology in other settings besides the schools. School psychologists can practice in a clinical/hospital/private practice setting. Most states require school psychologists to have a doctorate in order to get licensed and establish their own private practice. Some school psychologists may work in these settings under the supervision of a licensed clinical psychologist. However, the majority of school psychologists work in public schools.

As for PsyD vs. PhD -- Again, either may be OK for what you want to do, especially since it doesn't sound like you want to do a bunch of research.

 

[aagman01]

Hi there:

The masters in counseling + EDS is a good combination, in that you will get counseling training through the counseling masters and cognitive/academic/personality assessment training through the school psych EDS. You would be looking at 7-8 years for the MA in counseling + PSYD in school psych. Thats a ton of schooling - plus, you are looking at very little to non-existent funding that route, so its also a LOT of debt. The MA counseling +EDS school psych would still be 4 years of schooling + internship (unpaid in NYC unless you are bilingual), so still a costly way to go.


Some school psych eds programs will waive the first 30 credits if you already have a masters in a related area to school psych. Two school I heard of in the NYC area that do this are Kean and Montclair. That would allow you to complete course work in 3 years possibly including summers (2 years for counseling MA + 1 year for EDS). That seems the most logical way to go, especially if your career aspirations are to work solely in school settings.

Hey everyone, I noticed a similar thread to this, but I'm new here so forgive me if I am posting out of place. I've been reading this site for the past week or so and it seems to be a really great place to seek answers and advice.

I find myself in somewhat of a predicament lately as I approach the end of my current masters program. I have not always been the best student. I received a bachelors degree from a pretty well known University in 2009 torn between a decision of law school and pursuing further study in psychology. Due to a variety of factors, including some pretty heavy family problems mixed with some immaturity, my GPA was a 2.7. I know, I'm embarrassed for myself, but I do feel I've grown significantly since then. In the time between then and now, I sought out an internship at the local court house in the family court sector. This was interesting and surprisingly led me to want to pursue psychology more than law due to seeing how I could be helping out these kids and families.

Anyway, I ended up being accepted into a counseling program. I must admit, I did this for two reasons.. First, because I figured it would keep my options open as a good baseboard for further study in psychology OR law.. and second, I knew I had to do something to make up for that terrible undergraduate GPA. Yes, I understand that grad GPA is usually inflated, but if anything, at least I can prove my ability to pursue post undergraduate education. I finish this May and currently have a 3.91 GPA. I'm currently interning in a setting that is enabling me to be exposed to clinical and child/adolescent experience.

Sorry for the babble, but I figure some background may help to understand. Anyway, to make a long story short, I'd like to become a school psychologist. I've been researching programs. I'm stuck between whether or not I should do a masters solely or enter into a PsyD/PhD program. Here are the issues/questions:

1. I am by no means a great standardized test taker. Some programs do not require the GRE, all the PsyD programs do. I am scheduled to take the Psych GRE next month, and the general shortly after. I'm scoring decent on the subject and will begin general study next week.
2. Since I do not have a great GPA and most PsyD/PhD are very competitive, would it be smarter to go for the masters and either work toward my certification (in NY, two years post degree required for licensure) or try directly into a PsyD program. Several programs that have terminal masters degrees seem that they would provide a good base for a PsyD, but I worry about this taking more time than going right into a doctorate program due to transfer credits, etc.
3. I am not so much into heavy research as I am gaining practical experience, which is why I like the idea of a PsyD.
4. I am considering a PsyD, mostly in School-Clinical because I feel it's a very versatile degree. For example, I could work in an educational setting or clinical setting.. but in the future perhaps I could with my own clients after building up experience and my own caseloads, etc. (not necessarily in private practice off the bat) and perhaps even teach at the university level. I just don't know if I should take it one step at a time. But to make it clear : I DO want to work with children/adolescents at the educational level.

My main focus is obtaining admission to Pace University's joint School-Clinical program. I am not sure if I should apply for the MsEd degree (the first 3 years are identical to the PsyD program) and then apply to the PsyD program after year 3, which is an option for students in the program. or just apply directly to the PsyD program. I feel like this would give me more leverage in getting into their PsyD program and also prepare me for what is to come.

Basically, my main question is, am I crazy for wanting to even go for a doctorate if I do not want to do large amounts of research? Like I said, it mainly would be to broaden my career options down the line. I understand the pay difference may not be as large as I'd like but at least I'd have more options (especially being able to eventually be licensed as a school psychologist and licensed psychologist after clinical supervision if I wanted to eventually go that route). I want to do many different things and not just therapy, so I've ruled out a LMHC or social work.

I understand the risks and costs and am prepared to take them on. I guess I just need guidance. Anyone who can offer any insight, I would greatly appreciate it. Sorry for the long post!!

Thank You!!
T

 

[T120]

Hey guys, thank you so much for the advice! Lot's to take into consideration!

 

[AcronymAllergy]

You can earn your PhD in Applied Behavior Analysis which focuses on the areas of biology, psychology and even physical therapy. Studying in the PhD field of Clinical Psychology has you focusing on the areas of guidance counseling, educators and clinical psychologists as well as social work and psychologist in the research area.

I don't know many guidance counselors or social workers who have PhDs in clinical psych. Studying in clinical psychology will have you focus on just that--clinical psychology, which includes (among many other things) the social, physiological/biological, and cognitive bases of human mental functioning and, more specifically, psychopathology.

 

[FadedC]

School psychologists don't learn to be guidance counselors either. If you got your PhD in counseling though you might learn that, although I"m guessing it's more the MA level counseling people who go that route.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

School psychologists don't learn to be guidance counselors either. If you got your PhD in counseling though you might learn that, although I"m guessing it's more the MA level counseling people who go that route.

Sorry, didn't mean to leave school psychologists out of my statement. I wouldn't imagine many counseling psych folks go into guidance counseling, either, which I believe may predominantly be practiced by bachelor's-level individuals. At least with respect to the "typical" high school guidance counselor.

Then again, I don't have much knowledge of guidance counseling, so I may be completely mistaken.

 

[FadedC]

I don't know a lot about it either, but I do know that the counseling program at my school has multiple graduate level classes in career/guidance counseling. There are people I sometimes take classes with who are getting their MA in school counseling, these seem like the people who will become guidance counselors.

Things could vary by state though. I'm in NYC, and even just the classroom teachers here frequently have their MA in education. In some other states pretty much anyone who can pass a background check can become a teacher.

Sorry, didn't mean to leave school psychologists out of my statement. I wouldn't imagine many counseling psych folks go into guidance counseling, either, which I believe may predominantly be practiced by bachelor's-level individuals. At least with respect to the "typical" high school guidance counselor.

Then again, I don't have much knowledge of guidance counseling, so I may be completely mistaken.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I don't know a lot about it either, but I do know that the counseling program at my school has multiple graduate level classes in career/guidance counseling. There are people I sometimes take classes with who are getting their MA in school counseling, these seem like the people who will become guidance counselors.

Things could vary by state though. I'm in NYC, and even just the classroom teachers here frequently have their MA in education. In some other states pretty much anyone who can pass a background check can become a teacher.

Very true; I'd imagine it could vary substantially from state to state, and even from district to district. Some schools, the counselors may essentially be teachers who take on the work for extra pay (in much the same way as coaches at many public schools). At others, they may be very specifically-trained master's or doctoral-level practitioners. I'd imagine these latter professionals are likely the people who work in university career development/counseling centers as well.

 

[aagman01]

Are there actually any states where you can be a school guidance counselor with only a masters? I am not in counseling psych, but at my program most of the doctoral counseling students do get "vocational" training - but, to my understanding, that is a traditional training focus of counseling psychology. Vocational work is frequently for preparation to work in a college counseling center or outpatient center.

Counseling psych, though, from my understanding, like school psych, has evolved well beyond traditional roles. Traditionally, counseling psych folks have worked with the "worried well", in careers such as college counseling centers and outpatient clinics. School psych doctoral folks traditionally worked predominantly in public schools or training programs.

I think both fields are gaining entrance into traditional clinical roles. For example, counseling folks I know frequently are successful gaining entrance into medical psychology careers and school folks increasingly are gaining entrance into children's hospitals. I think the lines are increasingly blurring between the 3 professional sub-fields.

Very true; I'd imagine it could vary substantially from state to state, and even from district to district. Some schools, the counselors may essentially be teachers who take on the work for extra pay (in much the same way as coaches at many public schools). At others, they may be very specifically-trained master's or doctoral-level practitioners. I'd imagine these latter professionals are likely the people who work in university career development/counseling centers as well.

 

[Duck Duck Goose]

Are there actually any states where you can be a school guidance counselor with only a masters? I am not in counseling psych, but at my program most of the doctoral counseling students do get "vocational" training - but, to my understanding, that is a traditional training focus of counseling psychology. Vocational work is frequently for preparation to work in a college counseling center or outpatient center.

Counseling psych, though, from my understanding, like school psych, has evolved well beyond traditional roles. Traditionally, counseling psych folks have worked with the "worried well", in careers such as college counseling centers and outpatient clinics. School psych doctoral folks traditionally worked predominantly in public schools or training programs.

I think both fields are gaining entrance into traditional clinical roles. For example, counseling folks I know frequently are successful gaining entrance into medical psychology careers and school folks increasingly are gaining entrance into children's hospitals. I think the lines are increasingly blurring between the 3 professional sub-fields.

You can be an Associate School Psychologist with only a masters in at least one Northeastern state, maybe more. You need to be supervised by a licensed psychologist though, either school or clinical. One of my siblings teaches in a school where there's only an associate school psychologist in the physical school building/area.

 

[paramour]

Are there actually any states where you can be a school guidance counselor with only a masters? I am not in counseling psych, but at my program most of the doctoral counseling students do get "vocational" training - but, to my understanding, that is a traditional training focus of counseling psychology. Vocational work is frequently for preparation to work in a college counseling center or outpatient center.

Counseling psych, though, from my understanding, like school psych, has evolved well beyond traditional roles. Traditionally, counseling psych folks have worked with the "worried well", in careers such as college counseling centers and outpatient clinics. School psych doctoral folks traditionally worked predominantly in public schools or training programs.

I think both fields are gaining entrance into traditional clinical roles. For example, counseling folks I know frequently are successful gaining entrance into medical psychology careers and school folks increasingly are gaining entrance into children's hospitals. I think the lines are increasingly blurring between the 3 professional sub-fields.

Yep. Where I grew up, school counselors required master's only. Many of the ones I knew did not hold traditional "counseling/clinical" degrees either. Often, they were teachers who had taught for 'x' numbers of years and then completed some type of "respecialization" program/certificate to become counselors sometime later during their careers. (Not to say that there weren't the more traditional folks who completed a master's in school counseling...)

Regardless of the training/degree, we had some sh*tty counselors...

 

[Brooklyn08]

Hi there:

The masters in counseling + EDS is a good combination, in that you will get counseling training through the counseling masters and cognitive/academic/personality assessment training through the school psych EDS. You would be looking at 7-8 years for the MA in counseling + PSYD in school psych. Thats a ton of schooling - plus, you are looking at very little to non-existent funding that route, so its also a LOT of debt. The MA counseling +EDS school psych would still be 4 years of schooling + internship (unpaid in NYC unless you are bilingual), so still a costly way to go.


Some school psych eds programs will waive the first 30 credits if you already have a masters in a related area to school psych. Two school I heard of in the NYC area that do this are Kean and Montclair. That would allow you to complete course work in 3 years possibly including summers (2 years for counseling MA + 1 year for EDS). That seems the most logical way to go, especially if your career aspirations are to work solely in school settings.

I've looked into this option, as I already have an Ed.S in school psych and want to gain a mental health counseling degree. However, of the programs I've researched and 2 emails that I received back (including Kean) they cannot or will not take credits earned towards a completed degree. Thus I would have to complete another 60 credit program even though I have take similar graduate courses. The amount of hoops that one in the mental health field has to jump through is disheartening.

If anyone comes across a reputable program that accepts earned credits towards a new degree, please share. Psy.D's are just too expensive at this point and I'd prefer some more training in counseling/therapy.

 

[QueSera]

Hi there.

Great and valid questions.

I will offer you my insight and experience, but it's just my perspective.

I have a specialist degree in School Psychology. I feel that if you know what you want to do ultimately is work with kids and teens in schools, then this is a solid choice. You will have 2 years of classes, 1 year of internship (usually low paying). My programs only required one applied research project, which wasn't so bad. Some might just require that or thesis.

However, that being said, a specialist level school psychologist degree is very limiting. It literally only (at least in the two states I trained and worked in) prepares and licenses you to work in a school. There aren't many other options and most of my cohort finds this very limiting and wish they had other choices. For example, we would be qualified to do independent evals for LD, ADHD, Autism, etc., but cannot unless we are employed under someone with a doctorate degree. I applied this year to PhD programs in Clinical Psych due to many reasons, one of those being the limited career options for someone with a specialist degree in school psychology.

A joint Clinical-School program would give you many more options. If you can get accepted into the specialist level and then apply to the PsyD program, that is a decent option. Or in reality, some people in my cohort get accepted into the PhD program but switched to the specialist program.

I do want to advise you to find out more about the field of school psychology. Have you talked to practicing school psychologists? I highly suggest you do that. Also maybe shadow someone. I had a cohort of 12 (6 specialist, 6 PhD level) and many of us at the specialist level were not and are not satisfied with our jobs. And many of us often feel like we're not actually helping children and families. Those who got a PhD have many more career options and seem to be more satisfied career wise.

Feel free to PM me for more information. I do encourage you to find out more information.