Safety/Reach Schools

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jmiah717

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What are some thoughts on how to distribute applications? Let's say I have $ for 25 apps. One thought I had was to apply to 5 dream/reach schools, 15 more realistic but clearly good fit schools/ PI's, and 5 safer but maybe less desirable schools. And when I say less desirable, I'm talking more about schools that are still good schools in their own right, just not UNC or Yale, which may fall clearly into that reach/dream category. For the sake of argument, these are all funded programs, mostly PhD's in clinical psych.

The other thought I had was to just forget about the reach schools or the safety schools and apply to 25 best fit schools somewhere between low chances and fair chance with a good fit.

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Honestly, it's not really about school rank when applying to grad schools, if you're not a good fit, with the program, or the research mentor, it doesn't matter if it's a reach or safety. Instead of the school's name, I'd be looking at fit with that research mentor and also if your career goals overlap with what the program offers in it's training, both in-house and at external practica.
 
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Yup. Among funded programs, the closest we have to safety schools is schools in geographically undesirable places, where you have to complete against only a few dozen people instead of hundreds. But at the less geographically nice places a larger proportion of applicants will really want to go there to work with the faculty. A "reach" school is whatever school the top person in your area is at. In psych, many reach schools are state schools.
 
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Honestly, it's not really about school rank when applying to grad schools, if you're not a good fit, with the program, or the research mentor, it doesn't matter if it's a reach or safety. Instead of the school's name, I'd be looking at fit with that research mentor and also if your career goals overlap with what the program offers in it's training, both in-house and at external practica.

Absolutely, I appreciate the response. I have a spreadsheet of about 60 schools with 1-3 PI's at each that I'd like to work with. I'll narrow that down when it comes time by who's actually admitting that year as well as perceived fit, chances, etc. I was just curious if I should really even bother with the idea of applying to schools at the very top and bottom of my list. Again, using the term "schools" in more of a general sense and certainly plan to tailor each personal statement to my top 1-2 POI's.
 
Yup. Among funded programs, the closest we have to safety schools is schools in geographically undesirable places, where you have to complete against only a few dozen people instead of hundreds. But at the less geographically nice places a larger proportion of applicants will really want to go there to work with the faculty. A "reach" school is whatever school the top person in your area is at. In psych, many reach schools are state schools.

Thanks! I agree with you about location. I also think reach applies to schools like UNC which have 600 applicants and admit about 10, versus say Iowa which is in a less desirable location and gets about 125 applicants. I'd say training at both is stellar but I'd have a better chance at Iowa than UNC simply on numbers alone. Adding in fit, etc, and it might be an even better bet. Using that as an example, I'm just wondering if someone like me should forgo applying to 5 UNC like programs and use those 5 applications on programs more similar to Iowa. Similarly, why bother with 5 "safety" schools that you probably wouldn't end up attending? For me, those are mostly PsyD programs which have higher acceptance rates, but still good schools (IUP, Indiana State, etc)
 
I'd say training at both is stellar but I'd have a better chance at Iowa than UNC simply on numbers alone.

Very understandable reasoning, but to add to what others have said, fit is more crucial than people give it credit for. I trained at a program that received hundreds of applications for maybe 5-6 slots per year. Everyone accepted to my lab looked good on paper, but most were not over-the-top academic rock star types. However, they were all, every single one, a really good fit for the lab and the PI.

If you have 60 schools on your list, there is still room to narrow your interests and goals. It will make the elimination process easier and more effective.
 
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Very understandable reasoning, but to add to what others have said, fit is more crucial than people give it credit for. I trained at a program that received hundreds of applications for maybe 5-6 slots per year. Everyone accepted to my lab looked good on paper, but most were not over-the-top academic rock star types. However, they were all, every single one, a really good fit for the lab and the PI.

If you have 60 schools on your list, there is still room to narrow your interests and goals. It will make the elimination process easier and more effective.

Makes sense. I don't plan to apply to any schools that I can't convincingly show the potential fit. I think that list will get cut down quite a bit in the next year or so. And then with what's left, some of my good fit PI's won't be admitting so I'll have to put those aside. I imagine that around 30ish will be left to apply to and that's where I want to make sure I make my best bang for my buck. I'm just thinking, all things equal, even if the fit is fantastic, I have a much better chance getting noticed (in a good way) in a pool of 200 than 600, given that I'm non-traditional and have been clinical for so long. Not that I may not throw a few lines out there. I'm just trying to discern how many lines to chuck way out there when there are limited lines. Thanks for the insight! This is all quite helpful.
 
Thanks! I agree with you about location. I also think reach applies to schools like UNC which have 600 applicants and admit about 10, versus say Iowa which is in a less desirable location and gets about 125 applicants. I'd say training at both is stellar but I'd have a better chance at Iowa than UNC simply on numbers alone. Adding in fit, etc, and it might be an even better bet. Using that as an example, I'm just wondering if someone like me should forgo applying to 5 UNC like programs and use those 5 applications on programs more similar to Iowa. Similarly, why bother with 5 "safety" schools that you probably wouldn't end up attending? For me, those are mostly PsyD programs which have higher acceptance rates, but still good schools (IUP, Indiana State, etc)
Ok, but the point other people are making here is that looking at the raw numbers of applicants in absolute terms does not yield an accurate estimate of the competitiveness of a program or the ease of gaining admission. The point being made by @MCParent is that programs with significantly fewer applicants are not really all that easier to gain admission to, nor do they have less competitive applicants. It may actually be the case that equally competitive candidates are applying to both programs with greater and lesser numbers of applicants, but the former are also getting submissions from less competitive applicants due to their desirable geographic proximities (e.g. SoCal, NYC, and Chicago) and/or name cache (e.g. UNC Chapel Hill and Yale). Thus, applying to less geographically desirable locations or schools with weaker brand names may not necessarily increase your chances at admission.

If you want to diversify your applications and improve your chances of admission, first screen out any unfunded programs. They're easier to get into, because they are expensive, take too many students, provide poorer quality training, and don't diligently screen out underqualified applicants. Secondly, narrow it down to the type of program you want. You may want to pick programs that more strongly identify with scientist-practitioner or clinical science models, depending on your career goals. Beyond this branding, you want to identify programs that will offer you the type of training you're interested in, e.g. internal and external practica with the modalities, populations, pathologies, and contexts with which you want to gain experience and expertise. Thirdly, narrow it down to programs with faculty doing research that you are actually interested in pursuing. You also need to make sure they are taking applicants for the cohort with which you are applying, so that will automatically narrow down your choices for a fourth pass. Fifthly, look deeper into the background for these remaining faculty. What kind of grants and funding do they have? How many publications do they have? How long have they been researching this particular area you want to pursue? Are they authors or coauthors on important and/or commonly sited research in this area? This will help you gain an understanding of their rank and prestige in the community, which will give you somewhat of an idea of how competitive applying to work with them will be. The more famous a professor is in their specialty area, the more publications they have in top journals, and the more grants and external funding they have, the more people will be applying to work with them, but you'll also likely get more qualified applicants. They are the applicants who are probably the most familiar with that particular research area and professor, making them better fits than people applying just to the program/university in general or who have shallower understandings of the application process in general and that professor's research specifically. Younger, less-established faculty will receive fewer applications simply because they are not as well known, but they do have the potential benefit of being somewhat more motivated to produce publishable research in a shorter timeframe, because they have more to prove, especially if they don't have tenure yet. To diversify your applications, send some applications to "rock star" faculty in your research area, some to well-established, but less well-known faculty in your area, and some newer, younger faculty in your area (though with the caveat that they do have substantial productivity for their experience level).
 
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Ok, but the point other people are making here is that looking at the raw numbers of applicants in absolute terms does not yield an accurate estimate of the competitiveness of a program or the ease of gaining admission. The point being made by @MCParent is that programs with significantly fewer applicants are not really all that easier to gain admission to, nor do they have less competitive applicants. It may actually be the case that equally competitive candidates are applying to both programs with greater and lesser numbers of applicants, but the former are also getting submissions from less competitive applicants due to their desirable geographic proximities (e.g. SoCal, NYC, and Chicago) and/or name cache (e.g. UNC Chapel Hill and Yale). Thus, applying to less geographically desirable locations or schools with weaker brand names may not necessarily increase your chances at admission.

If you want to diversify your applications and improve your chances of admission, first screen out any unfunded programs. They're easier to get into, because they are expensive, take too many students, provide poorer quality training, and don't diligently screen out underqualified applicants. Secondly, narrow it down to the type of program you want. You may want to pick programs that more strongly identify with scientist-practitioner or clinical science models, depending on your career goals. Beyond this branding, you want to identify programs that will offer you the type of training you're interested in, e.g. internal and external practica with the modalities, populations, pathologies, and contexts with which you want to gain experience and expertise. Thirdly, narrow it down to programs with faculty doing research that you are actually interested in pursuing. You also need to make sure they are taking applicants for the cohort with which you are applying, so that will automatically narrow down your choices for a fourth pass. Fifthly, look deeper into the background for these remaining faculty. What kind of grants and funding do they have? How many publications do they have? How long have they been researching this particular area you want to pursue? Are they authors or coauthors on important and/or commonly sited research in this area? This will help you gain an understanding of their rank and prestige in the community, which will give you somewhat of an idea of how competitive applying to work with them will be. The more famous a professor is in their specialty area, the more publications they have in top journals, and the more grants and external funding they have, the more people will be applying to work with them, but you'll also likely get more qualified applicants. They are the applicants who are probably the most familiar with that particular research area and professor, making them better fits than people applying just to the program/university in general or who have shallower understandings of the application process in general and that professor's research specifically. Younger, less-established faculty will receive fewer applications simply because they are not as well known, but they do have the potential benefit of being somewhat more motivated to produce publishable research in a shorter timeframe, because they have more to prove, especially if they don't have tenure yet. To diversify your applications, send some applications to "rock star" faculty in your research area, some to well-established, but less well-known faculty in your area, and some newer, younger faculty in your area (though with the caveat that they do have substantial productivity for their experience level).

Good points. I'll definitely look at it more that way and with those things in mind. Thanks for the great input. I hadn't thought of it in terms of how active a particular faculty member is but that makes a lot of sense.
 
This process is complicated and frustrating, so I can only give you feedback based on my own specific experiences. For me, my mantra going in applying was to only to apply to programs and labs where I was a good fit. My application had weaknesses, but I wasn't going to let "not a good fit" be one of them. I customized each personal statement to the program and emailed all of the PIs. It was time-consuming so I didn't apply to a large number of programs (around 12).

I only got a few interviews but you bet I felt comfortable going into them as I knew what I had to offer them and how I saw myself in their program.

I am sure you are aware of how intensely competitive this process is. To me...if your aim is a funded clinical psychology program, every program is going to be a "reach" school just due to how crazy it is...
 
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I think psych.meout gave great actionable steps. Anecdotally, (and I'm sure this is a rare occurence) I prioritized fit of mentor above all else and ended up only applying to five schools. My field of interest is fairly small so there were very few people who were incredibly well aligned with my future goals and accepting students. There were 15 others who were an "ok" fit but I decided to focus on those that I was best aligned with and this allowed my to dive into each mentor's CV and pubs to tailor my essays (which I found didn't need much tailoring when mentors where doing work closer to my interests). I received four interviews and an offer from each of the four, with each mentor stating the fit worked in my favor. Surprisingly the schools were well distributed between reach, match, and safety schools so I didn't need to force that balance. As I said, my proportion of interviews/acceptances to number of applications is rare and I would never advise someone to only apply to five schools but it showed me how integral fit is in the application process.
 
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