Recommended schools other than the big 4

[premedstud101]

What other schools are recommended other than the big 4? I've looked at St. Matthews, AUA, UMHS, and St. James School of Medicine and they all seem decent. Please advice. Thanks!

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[bedevilled ben]

What other schools are recommended other than the big 4? I've looked at St. Matthews, AUA, UMHS, and St. James School of Medicine and they all seem decent. Please advice. Thanks!

Can I ask why you are interested in the non-Big 4 schools? If you look hard enough, you can find somebody willing to recommend just about anything. Examine the available data for each school. Specifically, you should look at things like state licensure, residency placement rates, availability of clinical rotation sites, etc. I will tell you that to my knowledge, only the Big 4 and AUA are licensed to practice in all 50 states in the US.

For whatever it's worth, my opinion is that choosing any Caribbean school besides a Big 4 will likely end in disaster for you.

 

[el_duderino]

Choosing one of the Big 4 is kind of an absolute last-ditch desperate gamble. If you're thinking about choosing something else, then you may want to reconsider medicine.

 

[el_duderino]

Context:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...-a-caribbean-medical-school-what-now.1080564/

 

[ChrisGriffen]

.....PA school, nursing school, podiatry school, pt school, ot school, slp school, pharmacy school.

Edit: not dissing these professions.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

MUA.... UAG (Guadalajara in Mexico)...

 

[Skip Intro]

There are plenty of spots available at the more reputable Caribbean medical schools. I would seriously re-consider pursuing this pathway if you don't get into one of those. You already know which ones they are. And, you already know the ones you absolutely should avoid. If you don't know the difference, I seriously question whether or not you should be a doctor.

This thread, with all due respect, is kind of superfluous.

-Skip

 

[Mad Jack]

Big four, Sackler, or a good Commonwealth school or bust. Don't bother with the minor players down south.

 

[premedstud101]

I'm considering schools other than the big 4 because I was dismissed from one of them for failing a course and now only Saba and some others would take me. Saba will make me start over.

 

[Top Gun]

I'm considering schools other than the big 4 because I was dismissed from one of them for failing a course and now only Saba would take me but will make me start over, I did apply to it anyway besides the ones mentioned above.

No offense or anything, but in light of this, I think its time to consider a new profession. Even if Saba does take you, what are the chances that you will succeed over there, given that you've failed out of one Big 4 school already? And in any event, dismissal from one school is going to be a huge black mark on your record when its time to apply for residency. Caribbean grads already have a harder time in the match than AMGs. Dismissal from one med school, and a Caribbean one at that, will pretty much kill your chances at matching.

 

[premedstud101]

Well, I am more determined at succeeding than ever before. And since I already have been to med school, I am experienced at it so I think that it's more likely that I'll succeed than fail again if I go back. I really want to be a physician and don't feel like giving up yet.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

Well, I am more determined at succeeding than ever before. And since I already have been to med school, I am experienced at it so I think that it's more likely that I'll succeed than fail again if I go back. I really want to be a physician and don't feel like giving up yet.

You need to accept the fact that you will not be a physician. I am sorry to be blunt, but you need to cut your losses.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

Also, anyone who tells you that you should go back to med school in the carib is giving you potentially the worst advice you will ever get.

 

[Top Gun]

Well, I am more determined at succeeding than ever before. And since I already have been to med school, I am experienced at it so I think that it's more likely that I'll succeed than fail again if I go back. I really want to be a physician and don't feel like giving up yet.

Look, medicine is a great profession. But there are many great professions out there. Some people are meant to be physicians, and some are not, and you're obviously one of the latter group. There are many other worthwhile careers in the health professions: nursing, PA, podiatry, pharmacy, dentistry, etc... And there are many worthwhile careers outside the health professions too, like law, education, or investment banking. Look at your strengths, and pick something based on those.

 

[chartero]

Well, I am more determined at succeeding than ever before. And since I already have been to med school, I am experienced at it so I think that it's more likely that I'll succeed than fail again if I go back. I really want to be a physician and don't feel like giving up yet.

You may have heard the saying that 'the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result.'

Being determined and not giving up is something, but it isn't a plan to study differently. The evidence suggests that to achieve a different result if you went back to first-year med school, you'd need to study differently. Probably both "smarter" and "harder." Do you have a plan to change the way you study based not just on motivation, or on time served ("I am experienced at it"), but on concrete actions?

 

[Skip Intro]

Well, I am more determined at succeeding than ever before. And since I already have been to med school, I am experienced at it so I think that it's more likely that I'll succeed than fail again if I go back. I really want to be a physician and don't feel like giving up yet.

How much debt have you racked-up so far? Just curious. Saba is expensive.

-Skip

 

[premedstud101]

Of course I am planning on studying differently. I realize that I am used to studying slowly and carefully and I experimented with different methods while I was in med school. I know that I need to change to reading faster and cover the material a larger number of times focusing on the most important things in order to know it by the time the exam comes. I had long days and may be weeks last term where I was studying 18 hours a day and sleeping 6 hours (may be a little less than 18 hours when you factor in getting ready to leave the house and getting food) and was up until 7am on several occasions. I was determined to succeed and I only failed one course by only a few points!!

While I appreciate your comments and advice and realize the risks you're talking about, it kind of pisses me off when I see accomplished physicians who were lucky enough (I know you like to think it's your brains that got you there) trying to shoot other people who weren't as lucky down and saying that they are "not meant to be doctors". I don't think that you are in a position to say that. You don't know what happened, you don't know how hard and long I worked, and you don't have a holistic view of everything on my individual case of what led to the result I got last term. Things happen and obviously they happened to me out of my control. You can ask any of my peers and they'll all tell you the sheer determination that I possess and the work I did. They are all shocked and saddened for what happened and are trying everything they can to help me out. I studied for and took the MCAT 5 times over 5 years and filled applications over all of those years to both Canadian and American schools without getting anywhere. So, I tried everything I can to get into medical school back home.

I know it'll become difficult to get a residency later on but I also know that if I work hard enough during my rotations and show how good I am, I can get interviews that way. There are people who are good at getting marks but are emotionless machines otherwise. I am a people's person, I am liked everywhere I go and I certainly work great in a hospital setting as I both worked and volunteered in hospitals before. So who said that it's marks that determine how good of a physician you'll be? Medicine requires a good character and personality that cares for people and want to help them as well as good knowledge, if the only thing you care about are your marks and what residency gets you the best living, are you really the best person for the job?

And who said that Dentistry, pharmacy, PA, and nursing are easy? they have their own challenges and difficulties. And there are no guarantees there either. Not to say that I won't nail them should I try.

And, Skip, I'll answer your question in a private message. I don't feel too comfortable posting that number here.

 

[Skip Intro]

No, I don't need the number. That was just more of a rhetorical question for you to ponder.

When I was at Ross, I recall there was a student there in a similar situation as yours. She was a very nice, quiet, sweet, young Indian woman. She lived in the apartment across from mine. She studied all the time. Everyone liked her. She still failed out. Many of us who knew and liked her were disappointed. Felt bad for her. This was after the second semester. It was clear that she really wanted to be a physician and succeed. Don't know what ever happened to her.

I think sometimes comments on a forum come across as unnecessarily harsh, especially when they are anonymous. It's an electronic "slap in the face" because it's not really personal. The people making those comments don't know you and you don't know them. It's sort of like someone yelling at you in a crowded dark movie theater for talking. It "feels" personal, but it really isn't.

But, I will say this.

The ability to master learning medicine is part intrinsic intelligence, part hard work, and part smart work. The intrinsic intelligence part is very individualistic. Some people can read the material once and remember it. There was also a kid like that when I was at Ross who had a photographic memory. He was a total goofball, too. But, he'd read the material once and always scored at the top of the class on the exams. I think he had all "A"s while on the island. I certainly didn't. Annoying. His personality was a little "off", though, and I could only imagine that this is what kept him out of U.S. medical school. He must have interviewed poorly. Almost an Asperger's spectrum kind of guy. Probably a pathologist somewhere now. Again, don't know what ever happened to him.

Working hard, which you seem to have done, is also required. You simply have to put in the legwork (and brainwork) to get the material down. I found that I couldn't sit for more than 45-50 minutes at a time before my brain needed a break. My day would often involve going to class, reviewing my notes, reading a few hours in the evening, and re-reviewing the material from the preceding days. When I got to Pathology, it just 'clicked' for me. I loved reading Robbins and it just started to make sense. But, I never studied more than 6 hours a day. Even when I was studying for Step 1. Maybe some people can do this and retain information. It was just too much for my brain otherwise. Obviously, this worked for me.

And, that's the last part: studying smarter. You need to figure out what your limits are. You need to figure out what the best way to master the material is. You need to figure out how the material fits together. Some people are great at just learning the material (like is required in Anatomy) by memorization. I was always horrible at that. I worked on trying to find the logical connections and how stuff "fit" together. That way it was less memorization and more logic. I also did a lot of questions out of the various review books. This helped me understand what people teaching the material thought was important.

I think if you go on and re-pursue your adventure, you have to answer these things: am I intelligent enough, do I work hard enough, and do I work smart enough. Working "smart" is probably the most important because, when you get to residency and you have 35 patients on your internal medicine service, you're going to have to be able to distill out what the important things are (e.g. someone with an active GI bleed doesn't need to have their flu vaccination status worried about right now) or you're going to sink there. Sometimes well-meaning and hardworking people focus so much on the details that they miss the big picture. Don't know if that's what's going on here, but it may be time to re-think how you're playing the game.

Just my $0.02.

-Skip

 

[ChrisGriffen]

I am sorry for you. I really am. You need to read this sentence though:

You are not going to be a physician.




You can start looking toward an alternate career now, or you can waste 4 years of time and money, and then start looking for an alternate career.

 

[Skip Intro]

You are not going to be a physician.

Well, you don't know that for certain. Although, failing out of one Caribbean medical school already should certainly be a time to re-evaluate one's life goals, as well as what went wrong. Hence my post above.

-Skip

 

[Top Gun]

Of course I am planning on studying differently. I realize that I am used to studying slowly and carefully and I experimented with different methods while I was in med school. I know that I need to change to reading faster and cover the material a larger number of times focusing on the most important things in order to know it by the time the exam comes. I had long days and may be weeks last term where I was studying 18 hours a day and sleeping 6 hours (may be a little less than 18 hours when you factor in getting ready to leave the house and getting food) and was up until 7am on several occasions. I was determined to succeed and I only failed one course by only a few points!!

While I appreciate your comments and advice and realize the risks you're talking about, it kind of pisses me off when I see accomplished physicians who were lucky enough (I know you like to think it's your brains that got you there) trying to shoot other people who weren't as lucky down and saying that they are "not meant to be doctors". I don't think that you are in a position to say that. You don't know what happened, you don't know how hard and long I worked, and you don't have a holistic view of everything on my individual case of what led to the result I got last term. Things happen and obviously they happened to me out of my control. You can ask any of my peers and they'll all tell you the sheer determination that I possess and the work I did. They are all shocked and saddened for what happened and are trying everything they can to help me out. I studied for and took the MCAT 5 times over 5 years and filled applications over all of those years to both Canadian and American schools without getting anywhere. So, I tried everything I can to get into medical school back home.

I know it'll become difficult to get a residency later on but I also know that if I work hard enough during my rotations and show how good I am, I can get interviews that way. There are people who are good at getting marks but are emotionless machines otherwise. I am a people's person, I am liked everywhere I go and I certainly work great in a hospital setting as I both worked and volunteered in hospitals before. So who said that it's marks that determine how good of a physician you'll be? Medicine requires a good character and personality that cares for people and want to help them as well as good knowledge, if the only thing you care about are your marks and what residency gets you the best living, are you really the best person for the job?

And who said that Dentistry, pharmacy, PA, and nursing are easy? they have their own challenges and difficulties. And there are no guarantees there either. Not to say that I won't nail them should I try.

And, Skip, I'll answer your question in a private message. I don't feel too comfortable posting that number here.

Its admirable that you worked so hard in med school. Really. But almost all of us who succeeded in med school and went on to become physicians worked hard. Hard work alone is not enough to guarantee that you'll become a physician. I agree with you that good character is necessary to become a physician, but so is the ability to learn and master a great deal of scientific knowledge, and apply it to the clinical setting. If you choose to continue down this path, you need to figure out what caused you to not succeed the first time, and how to fix it. Was it a learning disability? Was it poor test-taking skills? And you need to figure out if you have the aptitude to master the material. If you find you do have the aptitude, then you need to figure out how to study differently. If you are spending 18 hours a day studying and still not mastering the material, perhaps you are not studying efficiently. I never studied as much as 18 hours a day, and still got decent grades in med school, although definitely not near the top of the class. So I would suggest seeing the Educational Services department (or whoever does learning counseling) at your school, and get some advice on study skills.

And for the record, I never said nursing, PA, dentistry, or any of the other fields were easy. I'm a nephro fellow now, and I'm learning a lot about managing patients on HD from our dialysis nurses, who have been around for a long time. Some people are more suited to those fields, and some people are more suited to becoming physicians. I know I can't do what nurses do. I might be able to diagnose and treat patients, but I certainly can't manage an IV pump or fix a mechanical ventilator. I just wanted you to think about whether you might be more suited for one of those fields.

And like I said, even if you do graduate from Saba or another Caribbean med school, matching into residency is going to be even more of a challenge for you now. There is already a stigma against Caribbean graduates in the match. For you, having failed out of one Caribbean school already, it will be three times as difficult and your options for choosing a specialty will be extremely limited.

 

[premedstud101]

Thank you all for your posts. Seems like you put a lot of good thought and time into them. Now, based on your experience with these forums and the schools that I applied to, which ones do you recommend the most out of all of them? Anything good or bad? Here's the list I'm talking about: AUA, St. Mathew's, UMHS, Spartan, and Aureus (All Saints).

From what I'm reading around on online forums is that Aureus and SMU seem to be the worst out of that list. Any other ones I should definitely avoid? Anything good you want to say about these two? I know that SMU is accredited in NY and FL.

I haven't decided on anything yet, I just applied to make sure I have options, I'm also thinking of applying to Europe and DO schools next year.

 

[DocBlin]

Dear "premed stud.."; Your position is quite difficult after being dismissed from a Caribbean school already, as you stated previously. Even if you complete the required courses, STEPs, clerkships- obtaining a residency position for you might be next to impossible. Thus you would be in major debt with a MD degree but unable to secure a license to practice. Have you consider Podiatry? Good Luck...

 

[el_duderino]

Thank you all for your posts. Seems like you put a lot of good thought and time into them. Now, based on your experience with these forums and the schools that I applied to, which ones do you recommend the most out of all of them? Anything good or bad? Here's the list I'm talking about: AUA, St. Mathew's, UMHS, Spartan, and Aureus (All Saints).

From what I'm reading around on online forums is that Aureus and SMU seem to be the worst out of that list. Any other ones I should definitely avoid? Anything good you want to say about these two? I know that SMU is accredited in NY and FL.

I haven't decided on anything yet, I just applied to make sure I have options, I'm also thinking of applying to Europe and DO schools next year.

It doesn't matter how good the school is. You probably won't be able to get in, and even if you do get in you won't get a residency.

Cut your losses before you're $350,000 in debt with no career.

 

[premedstud101]

You may be right about residency but getting into another Caribbean school isn't a problem.
What about residencies in a country other than the US and Canada? Are you aware of anywhere else where a residency training can be obtained? Also, I think Canadian residency programs care less about marks and more about extracurriculars?


As for Podiatry, sure....why not? I don't mind any specialty at this point. I was considering FM, IM, radiology, hematology, radiology, and geriatrics.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Thank you all for your posts. Seems like you put a lot of good thought and time into them. Now, based on your experience with these forums and the schools that I applied to, which ones do you recommend the most out of all of them? Anything good or bad? Here's the list I'm talking about: AUA, St. Mathew's, UMHS, Spartan, and Aureus (All Saints).

From what I'm reading around on online forums is that Aureus and SMU seem to be the worst out of that list. Any other ones I should definitely avoid? Anything good you want to say about these two? I know that SMU is accredited in NY and FL.

I haven't decided on anything yet, I just applied to make sure I have options, I'm also thinking of applying to Europe and DO schools next year.

You wouldn't be accepted to a DO school after failing out of a Caribbean school. Sorry.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

You may be right about residency but getting into another Caribbean school isn't a problem.
What about residencies in a country other than the US and Canada? Are you aware of anywhere else where a residency training can be obtained? Also, I think Canadian residency programs care less about marks and more about extracurriculars?


As for Podiatry, sure....why not? I don't mind any specialty at this point. I was considering FM, radiology, hematology, radiology, and geriatrics.

Podiatry isn't a MD speciality. You go to Podiatry school for it...

 

[Top Gun]

Thank you all for your posts. Seems like you put a lot of good thought and time into them. Now, based on your experience with these forums and the schools that I applied to, which ones do you recommend the most out of all of them? Anything good or bad? Here's the list I'm talking about: AUA, St. Mathew's, UMHS, Spartan, and Aureus (All Saints).

From what I'm reading around on online forums is that Aureus and SMU seem to be the worst out of that list. Any other ones I should definitely avoid? Anything good you want to say about these two? I know that SMU is accredited in NY and FL.

None of them. If you do choose to continue down the path of becoming a physician, then getting reinstated at your former school would be your best bet. Transferring to one of those schools after failing out of a big 4 school will cause your chances for matching to drop to virtually zero. And by the way, like one of the above posters said, acceptance to a DO school after failing out of a Caribbean one is highly unlikely.

 

[chartero]

What about residencies in a country other than the US and Canada? Are you aware of anywhere else where a residency training can be obtained?

Are you already a citizen or legal permanent resident of another country? A residency isn't just an academic program, it's long-term full-time employment. You'll have to be a citizen of – or pass through all the hoops of the immigration system to get long-term permission to live and work in – a country in which you hope to do a residency.

Is any other country known for awarding any significant number of its valuable postgraduate medical training spots to Caribbean grads who couldn't place in their own home countries? No.

Also, I think Canadian residency programs care less about marks and more about extracurriculars?

Oh God no. The match rate for IMG applicants to Canadian residencies in 2014 was 5.5%. Many of those have advantages you may not – fluent French, strong prior Canadian credentials, etc.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

Go to podiatry school. Done.

 

[premedstud101]

I am Canadian and a graduate of a Canadian University. I am fluent in English and I know some French but not fluently.

 

[premedstud101]

Also, why is a dismissal from a Caribbean school such a huge red flag for residency programs? Are they not aware that these schools do it for something as small as failing a single course?

 

[el_duderino]

The Caribbean is already the second chance. The back door. You don't get second chances on second chances here.

 

[Medstart108]

Also, why is a dismissal from a Caribbean school such a huge red flag for residency programs? Are they not aware that these schools do it for something as small as failing a single course?

Its because they have so many qualified candidates they can afford to kick out the ones at the bottom of the pack. Think about it, you've already distinguished yourself as bottom of the pack by going to the Caribbean, on top of that you were kicked out, which makes everyone who wasn't kicked out also in front of you on the line.

There are so many people who are applying for residency spots who have never been kicked out, have better stats than you and went to better medical schools. Like i've said before, there isn't much sympathy for people who screw up their 2nd chance. At this point, you can go to a lesser school, and if you are good you may be able to eek out a rural FM residency, but Canadian residencies are definitely out of your league.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Your chances of getting a residency spot in Canada are zero. As mentioned, the number of spots is almost equal to the number of grads, and it is highly unlikely with your performance so far that you're going to get a spot there. You can try to get a spot in the US, and then work in Canada since training is considered interchangable.

To be honest, I'm finding it hard to believe that your school kicked you out for failing a single class once. I'm very worried that there is more to the story.

Ultimately, only you will know whether this is worth the risk. Going to a second tier carib school, with your history already, unless you markedly improve your performance, you could easily end up without training. Nothing is guaranteed -- you could do fine. But as you can see, the SDN crowd is worried.

 

[AStark]

Also, I think Canadian residency programs care less about marks and more about extracurriculars?

Canadian residency programs don't care about extracurriculars much and don't care about marks at all - for Canadian grads, that is, who complete a Canadian MD and (mostly) graduate from pass/fail programs. They do care about your academic history, though, and getting dismissed from a Caribbean med school is a HUGE and very RED FLAG. Sorry for the caps, but I must emphasize that this will make it impossible to match to the small number of IMG spots available.

To match to a Canadian program as an IMG, you need top USMLE and MCCEE scores, both of which will be used to eliminate IMG applicants in the initial file review. You also need to have extensive elective rotations throughout the country.

 

[premedstud101]

Your chances of getting a residency spot in Canada are zero. As mentioned, the number of spots is almost equal to the number of grads, and it is highly unlikely with your performance so far that you're going to get a spot there. You can try to get a spot in the US, and then work in Canada since training is considered interchangable.

To be honest, I'm finding it hard to believe that your school kicked you out for failing a single class once. I'm very worried that there is more to the story.

Ultimately, only you will know whether this is worth the risk. Going to a second tier carib school, with your history already, unless you markedly improve your performance, you could easily end up without training. Nothing is guaranteed -- you could do fine. But as you can see, the SDN crowd is worried.

Ok, no Canadian Residency for me. I knew from the beginning that even if I had a perfect record in the Caribbean, getting residency training in Canada was a long shot in the dark anyway. As for whether there's more to my story.... not that I'm aware of.

Now, for the sake of argument if I do end up going to a lower tier school and attend a school that isn't approved by NY, FL, and CA, how much of a problem is it for me to obtain rotations, residency, and licensure in NY, FL, and CA? What about other states that follows Cali's list and the ones that don't follow their list? Who should I call to get this information?

 

[Skip Intro]

... at this point I don't mind a residency ANYWHERE, as long as I get one. And I don't really have a preference for a specific specialty.

Quick question: why do you want to be a doctor?

-Skip

 

[premedstud101]

Quick question: why do you want to be a doctor?

-Skip

I need at least 2 pages to answer that question, but I'm also not in a position to be picky..

 

[Skip Intro]

I need at least 2 pages to answer that question, but I know what you mean, it's not what you're thinking. I'm just not in a position to be picky..

We've got the time if you have the inclination.

-Skip

 

[premedstud101]

We've got the time if you have the inclination.

-Skip

You know something? I'm depressed but this made me giggle... Since these are public forums, I don't feel comfortable talking about something personal, and it's not the point of this thread anyway. Afterall, I'm only looking for advice.

Now can we go back to topic please? If I do end up going to a lower tier school and attend a school that isn't approved by NY, FL, and CA, how much of a problem is it for me to obtain rotations, residency, and licensure in NY, FL, and CA? What about other states that follows Cali's list and the ones that don't follow their list? Who should I call to get this information?

 

[Top Gun]

You know something? I'm depressed but this made me giggle... Since these are public forums, I don't feel comfortable talking about something personal, and it's not the point of this thread anyway. Afterall, I'm only looking for advice.

Now can we please go back to topic? If I do end up going to a lower tier school and attend a school that isn't approved by NY, FL, and CA, how much of a problem is it for me to obtain rotations, residency, and licensure in NY, FL, and CA? What about other states that follows Cali's list and the ones that don't follow their list? Who should I call to get this information?

As I and others have already told you, going to a lower tier Caribbean school after being dismissed from a big 4 school is going to be a huge issue when it comes to residency application. And its going to be a huge issue when it comes to licensure, because only graduates from the big 4 schools can be licensed in all 50 states. So not only is it going to be difficult for you to get a residency, but practicing wherever you want is going to be a challenge. Suppose you want to go back and practice in your hometown, but the school you went to is not approved by your state licensing board? So then you'll have to be flexible, and look for a job wherever you can get licensed, even if its not a location that you particularly desire.

We are asking why you want to be a doctor, because it seems that you have struggled at every point along the way. You took the MCAT 5 times over 5 years, applied every year for 5 years to American and Canadian schools without any success, and when you finally got accepted to a big 4 school, you blew your chance by failing that course. Based on your past performance, another concern will be your ability to do well on the USMLE. For Carib grads, its not enough to pass the USMLE. You have to perform better than American grads to have the same chance at matching into a residency as them. Do you really want to spend another few years struggling when it may not even pan out for you in the end (i.e. not matching)? So you must ask yourself if you're really cut out to do medicine. Why not pick another field where you're more likely to succeed? Sure, medicine's a great career, but its not the only great one out there.

 

[el_duderino]

You keep asking the same question. The answer won't change. You can become an MD, but you won't become a physician.

 

[Skip Intro]

You know something? I'm depressed but this made me giggle... Since these are public forums, I don't feel comfortable talking about something personal, and it's not the point of this thread anyway. Afterall, I'm only looking for advice.

Fair enough. I think we've beaten the dead horse on this particular avenue of your conundrum.

Now can we go back to topic please? If I do end up going to a lower tier school and attend a school that isn't approved by NY, FL, and CA, how much of a problem is it for me to obtain rotations, residency, and licensure in NY, FL, and CA? What about other states that follows Cali's list and the ones that don't follow their list? Who should I call to get this information?

Impossible. You will never get licensed in those states unless you repeat course work that was deemed "deficient" by those medical boards.

You can look at the individual states disapproved lists. These are found on their board of medicine's websites for each state. Some of the state's recognize CA's list.

http://www.mbc.ca.gov/Applicants/Medical_Schools/Schools_Disapproved.aspx

There's no immediate comprehensive list of all schools (that I'm aware of) that are "banned" per state. And, there is always a potential that these can change at any time when any of those boards meet. Usually the individual schools themselves will have this information, but are not always necessarily forthcoming or want to advertise this. That is another red flag in my opinion.

-Skip

 

[Qester]

Wow tough spot, I feel for the op. It comes across that you will do anything to become a physician and I admire that.

A few random question to the op;

If you do decided to go back to the Caribbean how do you think you will fare on Step 1 (I know, so many factors, but a realistic estimate).

Take into account the amount of work, effort and time you put into your MS class(es) that you were not successful at, as well as your standardized test taking ability (MCAT) as well as all the other factors that would be to numerous to list, how do you realistically see yourself scoring?

Also if you don't mind sharing, could you elaborate on some of the information you have given us? Perhaps the scores of your mcat (or rough scores), which class/classes you were not able to succeed at. Were the any other circumstances that could be rectified at a new school to ensure success?

 

[ChrisGriffen]

Seriously- If you cant post an informal paragraph about why medicine is the only possible option for you, then you are really in a bad place.

Do you think nobody would ask you that question again?

I mean even applying to whatever school they are going to ask you why you took the MCAT 5 times and failed out of a carib school.

If you think it is hard to explain...thats because it IS hard to explain. I am sorry to say it, but there are no viable excuses for that. You have failed out. Try a different path.


Please read this as honest advice.

Healey's first law of holes: when you are in one, stop digging.

 

[Top Gun]

Oh, and if you are lucky enough to match, most likely it will be at some crappy, malignant community program which fires at least two residents each year. Because of your past performance, there is a concern that you may not be up to speed when its time to do residency, and you could end up going through probation, and eventually termination.

 

[Skip Intro]

This is a good thread with a lot of good information for not only premedstud101 to consider, but also others who might be in a similar situation. I think everyone contributing here should be commended for their honesty and candor. Lots of good advice. Not the least of which is the investment in time, money, blood, sweat, and tears that may ultimately only result in an expensive piece of sheepskin and not much else. Something that everyone should consider.

Among the better points is the fact that, even if you complete a medical program and get your M.D. degree, nothing is guaranteed. In my anesthesia program, we lost 3 residents from my class during the course of training. They just weren't a "good fit" for the field. And, this was only found out once they were immersed in the program.

-Skip

 

[Del Caribe]

There has been some really good advice on this thread, and I completely agree with Skip that nothing in medicine is guaranteed smooth sailing. You may get into a medical school, but there's no guarantee that you'll pass. You may pass medical school and get an MD degree, but there's no guarantee that you'll get into residency. You may get into residency, but there's no guarantee you'll finish it. There are certainly residents who get fired. Even once you finish residency, there's no guarantee that you'll maintain your state license, board (re)certifications, avoid getting sued, etc, etc, etc. It doesn't get any easier each step along the way either and having good discipline, working hard, and working smart is the MINIMUM expected requirement for you to be successful. I think we've more than bombarded you with enough advice. That being said, I'll do my best to answer your question about the "recommended schools" other than the big four. First, I don't recommend any Caribbean medical school outside the big four, but if you do choose to reapply to other schools beyond the big four, I believe there are definitely ways to tier medical schools in the Caribbean according to their levels of accreditation, approval, and recognition in the United States. Here are the criteria in which I am using to tier schools:

1. Is the school accredited?
To be accredited means that a recognized accrediting body has visited and evaluated the medical school and found that the quality of the education, administration, and facility meet the standards of accreditation. Having a government charter and being listed in a medical school directory (i.e. FAIMER IMED, WHO Avicenna, WDOMS) is not the same as being accredited.

2. Is the school’s accreditation NCFMEA approved?
To be NCFMEA-approved means that the accrediting body that accredited the medical school has been deemed by the US Department of Education’s National Committee on Foreign Medical Education and Accreditation to have accreditation standards on par with LCME, which accredits US and Canadian medical schools.

3. Is the school New York approved?
To be New York approved means that the medical school has been visited and reviewed by the New York State Education Department and has met the state’s standards needed to allow students of the school to complete more than 12 weeks of clinical rotations and graduates to enter residency in New York State.

4. Is the school California approved?
To be California approved means that the medical school has been visited and reviewed by the Medical Board of California and has met the state’s standards needed to allow students of the school to complete clinical rotations and graduates to enter residency and obtain medical licenses in California, Alaska, Arkansas, Colorado, Idaho, Indiana, New Mexico, Oregon, Tennessee, Vermont, and other states that may follow California’s standards. Schools can also be disapproved by California, further limiting their graduates from practicing in a few other states like North Dakota and Vermont.

5. Can the school’s graduates be licensed in all 50 States?
Graduates are allowed to obtain license to practice medicine in all 50 states if their school is approved by California (and therefore also Alaska, Arkansas, Colorado, Idaho, Indiana, New Mexico, Oregon, Tennessee, Vermont) as well as Kansas (school needs to be over 15 years old). Otherwise, graduates can practice in the 30+ states that do not require the medical school to have state approval.

6. Is the school eligible to offer Title IV federal student loans?
To be eligible means that the medical school satisfies the many stringent criteria set forth by the US Department of Education to be eligible to offer their US students US federal financial aid.

7. Is the school non-distance learning?
Medical students who go to schools where a large portion of the Basic Science and/or Clinical Science curriculum is given via the internet, or distance-learning, are limited from getting licensed and practicing medicine in a large number of states.

If we consider all of these criteria, here is how all the offshore medical schools in the Caribbean would tier:

Disclaimer: This is personal research and may be subject to mistakes. Not all schools may be listed.

Tier 1: Accredited, NCFMEA, NY, CA, 5o States, Title IV

• American University of the Caribbean (AUC)
• Ross University
• Saba University
• St. George’s University (SGU)

Tier 2: Accredited, NCFMEA, NY, CA

• American University of Antigua (AUA)

Tier 3: Accredited, NCFMEA, NY

• Medical University of the Americas (MUA)

Tier 4: Accredited, NCFMEA, NY, CA Disapproved

• St. Matthews University (SMU)

Tier 5: Accredited

• All American Institute of Medical Sciences(AAIMS)
• American International Medical University (AIMU)
• American University of St. Vincent (AUS)
• Atlantic University (AUSOM)
• College of Medicine and Health Sciences St. Lucia (COMHSSL)
• International American University (IAU)
• Spartan Health Sciences University
• St. James School of Medicine (SJSM)
• Trinity School of Medicine (TSOM)
• University of Health Sciences Antigua (UHSA)
• University of Medicine and Health Sciences (UMHS)
• Windsor University
• Xavier University

Tier 6. Not Subject to Accreditation According to WHO/AVICENNA or Accreditation Pending

• American University of Barbados (AUB)
• American University of Integrated Sciences (AUIS)
• Aureus University
• Avalon University
• Caribbean Medical University (CMU)

Tier 7: Distance Learning

• International University of Health Sciences (IUHS)
• University of Science, Arts, and Technology (USAT)

If you are looking into applying to a Caribbean medical school, not just for premedstud101, but for anyone, I'd first apply to the Tier 1 schools (big 4), then if this doesn't work, consider tier 2, then tier 3, etc. Of course, please understand the risk of doing so before deciding to go to the schools in the lower tiers. We can give you a lot of advice from our own experiences on this forum, but ultimately you'll have to make the choice.

Best of luck!

 

[demayette]

Lol... There is a tier 7 in the caribbean.. Best of luck to OP!