REALITY of the merger: PD: "We went from 170 applications to 450 applications our first cycle"

[AnatomyGrey12]

Idk man. Anecdotally, the people I come across who generally use grade replacement are people who got Cs and Ds in prerequisite courses and those tank your GPA something fierce. But I'm curious why you feel otherwise though.

Because when they got rid of grade replacement they did a study that concluded that removing grade replacement would only drop the average GPA by .012 or something equally tiny.

why don't more DO students take the USMLE?

I'm sure there is a contingent of people who don't take it out of fear, but people always seem to forget that a large number (I would say the majority) of DO students come into school with their goal being a field and residency where the USMLE doesn't really do them much good. A lot of self selection.

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[Drrrrrr. Celty]

If what you say is true, why don't more DO students take the USMLE? Why do only 2-3 schools have a USMLE requirement? This is my original question. I don't believe that 50% of do students lack the "effort" or "drive" to not take the exam.....

It's multifactoral. Many people don't believe they need it to match into the field they want. Others bought into being told that they don't need it. Others think it's too risky to take both. Others don't have time to take both due to their school giving them limited time for boards.

 

[jw3600]

If what you say is true, why don't more DO students take the USMLE? Why do only 2-3 schools have a USMLE requirement? This is my original question. I don't believe that 50% of do students lack the "effort" or "drive" to not take the exam.....

Because they wouldn't pass. Hoards of kids at my school "planned" to take it. They didn't. The reason is obvious.

 

[jw3600]

Unless anyone posts a post germane to the original post, I will ask the mods to close the thread

Dude.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Because they wouldn't pass. Hoards of kids at my school "planned" to take it. They didn't. The reason is obvious.

Unless your class is populated by people who have utterly no talent for pathology, I think most would probably pass it. But a passing usmle isn't that impressive to residencies.

You're a first year right?

 

[jw3600]

Unless your class is populated by people who have utterly no talent for pathology, I think most would probably pass it. But a passing usmle isn't that impressive to residencies.

You're a first year right?

True most would pass. Most wouldn't score well.

4th year.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Unless your class is populated by people who have utterly no talent for pathology, I think most would probably pass it. But a passing usmle isn't that impressive to residencies.

You're a first year right?

We'll just have to wait till 2020. The data by then will be incredibly revealing.

 

[Mad Jack]

The numbers they gave early on turned out not to be accurate (were inflated af) for our class. I doubt they're that high for your class either.

Also, MD students also don't have grade replacement.

Less than 10% of students utilize grade replacement.

 

[Mad Jack]

Because when they got rid of grade replacement they did a study that concluded that removing grade replacement would only drop the average GPA by .012 or something equally tiny.



I'm sure there is a contingent of people who don't take it out of fear, but people always seem to forget that a large number (I would say the majority) of DO students come into school with their goal being a field and residency where the USMLE doesn't really do them much good. A lot of self selection.

Look at the USNWR ranking of schools that lead to residencies. Three DO schools are in the top ten, with students matching >60% at their top ranked choice. Shows that there is a lot of self selection in the process.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

We'll just have to wait till 2020. The data by then will be incredibly revealing.

? What data? The people who don't take the usmle will still not take it in 2020 and the residencies that take comlex only will still more than happily accept comlex DOs.

 

[Yadster101]

Look at the USNWR ranking of schools that lead to residencies. Three DO schools are in the top ten, with students matching >60% at their top ranked choice. Shows that there is a lot of self selection in the process.

Do you have a link? I only see rankings for research and primary care from USNWR.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Do you have a link? I only see rankings for research and primary care from USNWR.

This is the thread he is referring too. It has the link in the first page.

VCOM, WVU in top 10 medical schools that lead to residencies

 

[DrfluffyMD]

? What data? The people who don't take the usmle will still not take it in 2020 and the residencies that take comlex only will still more than happily accept comlex DOs.

The data that people who do not take USMLE matches much worse. Like I said, I am in position to become a PD if I want to (given the fellowship I got) and I still don't understand COMLEX nor will I plan to use it to differentiate applicants. I will care if they pass, but that's about it.

This isn't my singular sentiment. Most of my MD colleagues either don't understand. At least one of my DO colleague refuse to use COMLEX as a benchmark due to inconclusion of certain OMM.

 

[oludir]

The data that people who do not take USMLE matches much worse. Like I said, I am in position to become a PD if I want to (given the fellowship I got) and I still don't understand COMLEX nor will I plan to use it to differentiate applicants. I will care if they pass, but that's about it.

This isn't my singular sentiment. Most of my MD colleagues either don't understand. At least one of my DO colleague refuse to use COMLEX as a benchmark due to inconclusion of certain OMM.

I'm not sure how much sense this makes. If you can do well in USMLE you should do well in COMLEX regardless of OMM. All it involves is study. I will posit that anyone doing badly in COMLEX but great in USMLE simply decided to blow COMLEX off. Most people do equally well in both.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The data that people who do not take USMLE matches much worse. Like I said, I am in position to become a PD if I want to (given the fellowship I got) and I still don't understand COMLEX nor will I plan to use it to differentiate applicants. I will care if they pass, but that's about it.

This isn't my singular sentiment. Most of my MD colleagues either don't understand. At least one of my DO colleague refuse to use COMLEX as a benchmark due to inconclusion of certain OMM.

I think by the time that happens you won't be processing COMLEX scores....

 

[Bynumite17]

Less than 10% of students utilize grade replacement.

This is really surprising to me! But def makes my point earlier negligible.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I still don't understand COMLEX

Didn't you take it? Aren't you a DO?

The data that people who do not take USMLE matches much worse

This data will never exist. We can't even get a charting outcomes that shows the USMLE scores of people who did take it. Even after the merger as long as COMLEX is still the licensing exam for Osteopathic students I am extremely skeptical they will produce data that shows matching differences between those that took USMLE and those that didn't. Should they? Yes, but they won't.

 

[ThreeCheers]

Yes, but how many people are scoring 500-550 and matching even into the AOA versions of the competitive specialities? Can't imagine very many.

According to the NMS report released by AACOM, the answer to your question is "quite a few". People with those scores in the class of 2014 (for some reason, this is the most recent data available on the website) matched into moderately competitive specialties like GS, EM, OB/GYN, rads pretty easily. Even the surgical subspecialties/derm weren't out of reach with a good audition, which btw I always thought was silly. Nobody can predict the future, but I don't think it's unreasonable to speculate that most DOs will be pushed into the least competitive fields.

If what you say is true, why don't more DO students take the USMLE? Why do only 2-3 schools have a USMLE requirement? This is my original question. I don't believe that 50% of do students lack the "effort" or "drive" to not take the exam.....

The only people in my class that didn't plan to take the USMLE as an OMS-0 were the bottom-of-the-barrel students, but getting consistently respectable scores on NBMEs is easier said than done. People back out because they don't want to risk failing a test that isn't even required for them.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Didn't you take it? Aren't you a DO?



This data will never exist. We can't even get a charting outcomes that shows the USMLE scores of people who did take it. Even after the merger as long as COMLEX is still the licensing exam for Osteopathic students I am extremely skeptical they will produce data that shows matching differences between those that took USMLE and those that didn't. Should they? Yes, but they won't.

I am not a DO. I went to a USMD school.

I think by the time that happens you won't be processing COMLEX scores....

I sure hope so, and given the stage of my training I could potentially be processing COMLEX scores in about 3-4 years since being APD is rather low on the faculty ladder.

The way I've approach it, is that I will simply rank applicants based on step score if they need to be ranked through score. If they are DO, I will be ranking them base on USMLE score as long as they pass COMLEX. If one student has a 240 and 600 and another has 255 and 450 or whatever the bare minimum passing grade is, I'll have to rank the 255 guy ahead, because again, I don't understand the COMLEX but I understand the USMLE.

I suppose you can go to the radiology q and a thread from a PD over in radiology forum and I guess that he will be using a similar method.m

The reality is that there are simply too many applications to wade through. I am not going to be able to come up with a fair and equitable conversion formula either. If I have to deal with two numbers for step 1 that's another hundreds of numbers to wade through. I will have to pick a number that I understand and I can explain to other faculties, most of whom in my field happened to have taken USMLE only.

Again, this isn't a MD vs DO thing. The DO resident in my class above me scored the highest in the radiology board exam. This is a "I don't understand this exam" thing.

 

[CCmetal94]

...so why'd you go to KCU?


Furthermore, according to this http://www.kcumb.edu/admissions/student-profileKCU's median GPA is 3.63 and the median MCAT is a 28...so idk why you're inflating these numbers for any other reason but your own ego. It just makes you look insecure dude.

That was last year. They told us at accepted Students day that the incoming class average was a 507 MCAT and a 3.6-3.7 GPA.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I am not a DO. I went to a USMD school.

I'm confused, do multiple people use this account? I'm pretty sure I've seen you post and say you took the COMLEX and went to a DO school? Maybe I'm just confused and wrong.

 

[W19]

That was last year. They told us at accepted Students day that the incoming class average was a 507 MCAT and a 3.6-3.7 GPA.

'accepted' students is different from 'matriculated' students and schools play with that all the time... You are going to be a doc, don't fall for these BSs.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

I'm confused, do multiple people use this account? I'm pretty sure I've seen you post and say you took the COMLEX and went to a DO school? Maybe I'm just confused and wrong.

I have posted multiple comments about how DO discrimination is wrong but I am an ally. I went to a top 20 MD school if you look in my comments.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I am not a DO. I went to a USMD school.



I sure hope so, and given the stage of my training I could potentially be processing COMLEX scores in about 3-4 years since being APD is rather low on the faculty ladder.

The way I've approach it, is that I will simply rank applicants based on step score if they need to be ranked through score. If they are DO, I will be ranking them base on USMLE score as long as they pass COMLEX. If one student has a 240 and 600 and another has 255 and 450 or whatever the bare minimum passing grade is, I'll have to rank the 255 guy ahead, because again, I don't understand the COMLEX but I understand the USMLE.

I suppose you can go to the radiology q and a thread from a PD over in radiology forum and I guess that he will be using a similar method.m

The reality is that there are simply too many applications to wade through. I am not going to be able to come up with a fair and equitable conversion formula either. If I have to deal with two numbers for step 1 that's another hundreds of numbers to wade through. I will have to pick a number that I understand and I can explain to other faculties, most of whom in my field happened to have taken USMLE only.

Again, this isn't a MD vs DO thing. The DO resident in my class above me scored the highest in the radiology board exam. This is a "I don't understand this exam" thing.

Do we really though? I mean both are frankly esoteric measures. I'm not very sure what a 220 v.s a 230 v.s a 250 is really.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Do we really though? I mean both are frankly esoteric measures. I'm not very sure what a 220 v.s a 230 v.s a 250 is really.

Yes, an esoteric measures design to measure applicant's medical knoweledge, ability to think on their feet, and yes, an imperfect test, but our ONLY way to pit everyone, FMG, IMG, you, Harvard grads, in the same arena.

Just like the MCAT, an 220-230-250 determines whether you'll recieve the priviledge to train in the field of your passion if it's competitive, it determines where you'll live (and whether you have to be separated from your loved one or not if couple's matching.)

Wanna live in NYC or Cali? Get a good step 1. Wanna do ortho or IR? Get a nice step 1. Wanna go to Harvard for family med? Get a nice step 1

Step 1 is most important thing for a USMD's app and often the ONLY thing going for a DO applicant since research is harder without the institutional support.

So yes, it matters.

PS: step 1 still gets talked about at the fellowship leve. I know I scored 20 points lower than my future cofellow (and yes, I scored above 250).

The only time when your step will cease to be a factor is when you look for a job.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Yes, an esoteric measures design to measure applicant's medical knoweledge, ability to think on their feet, and yes, an imperfect test, but our ONLY way to pit everyone, FMG, IMG, you, Harvard grads, in the same arena.

Just like the MCAT, an 220-230-250 determines whether you'll recieve the priviledge to train in the field of your passion if it's competitive, it determines where you'll live (and whether you have to be separated from your loved one or not if couple's matching.)

Wanna live in NYC or Cali? Get a good step 1. Wanna do ortho or IR? Get a nice step 1. Wanna go to Harvard for family med? Get a nice step 1

Step 1 is most important thing for a USMD's app and often the ONLY thing going for a DO applicant since research is harder without the institutional support.

So yes, it matters.

I'm not denying any of that. I'm just saying aside from it saying that someone got a X percentile on a test, I don't know what it really means haha.

 

[jw3600]

'accepted' students is different from 'matriculated' students and schools play with that all the time... You are going to be a doc, don't fall for these BSs.

I remember one year Chicago Medical School had a stat for average MCAT of people they ACCEPTED. Not who actually came. It went from like a 32 to a 29. What a bunch of disingenuous bums.

 

[CCmetal94]

'accepted' students is different from 'matriculated' students and schools play with that all the time... You are going to be a doc, don't fall for these BSs.

I'm aware of this. I was correcting your false assumption that the previous poster was making these numbers up for egotistical reasons. You're going to be a doctor don't let your superiority complex get the best of you already.

 

[W19]

I'm aware of this. I was correcting your false assumption that the previous poster was making these numbers up for egotistical reasons. You're going to be a doctor don't let your superiority complex get the best of you already.

Of course I will be superior with that MD degree--I will not be a DO

 

[Lexdiamondz]

Yes, an esoteric measures design to measure applicant's medical knoweledge, ability to think on their feet, and yes, an imperfect test, but our ONLY way to pit everyone, FMG, IMG, you, Harvard grads, in the same arena.

Just like the MCAT, an 220-230-250 determines whether you'll recieve the priviledge to train in the field of your passion if it's competitive, it determines where you'll live (and whether you have to be separated from your loved one or not if couple's matching.)

Wanna live in NYC or Cali? Get a good step 1. Wanna do ortho or IR? Get a nice step 1. Wanna go to Harvard for family med? Get a nice step 1

Step 1 is most important thing for a USMD's app and often the ONLY thing going for a DO applicant since research is harder without the institutional support.

So yes, it matters.

PS: step 1 still gets talked about at the fellowship leve. I know I scored 20 points lower than my future cofellow (and yes, I scored above 250).

The only time when your step will cease to be a factor is when you look for a job.

This is kinda shortsighted, and I'm surprised that a residency trained physician puts this much stock in a simple number.

Yes, boards are important but making them the be all and end all is a sure fire way to end up with a batch of residents that are book smart and hospital dumb.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

I'm aware of this. I was correcting your false assumption that the previous poster was making these numbers up for egotistical reasons. You're going to be a doctor don't let your superiority complex get the best of you already.

To be fair, I was the one who said that they were making them up for egotistical reasons, largely as a continuation of their earlier comments about there being "a ton of (only) Asian and White DO students with MD stats".

 

[SurgDoc95]

To be fair, I was the one who said that they were making them up for egotistical reasons, largely as a continuation of their earlier comments about there being "a ton of (only) Asian and White DO students with MD stats".

Not quite, you attacked me about it when I said absolutely nothing about Asian or White DO students and their stats.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

Not quite, you attacked me about it when I said absolutely nothing about there being Asian and White DO students with MD stats.

Damn dude. My bad - I apologise.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

This is kinda shortsighted, and I'm surprised that a residency trained physician puts this much stock in a simple number.

Yes, boards are important but making them the be all and end all is a sure fire way to end up with a batch of residents that are book smart and hospital dumb.

People often assume that residents who do well on board exams are book smart and hospital dumb. In my experience folks who perform outstandingly on step 1 are also outstanding people on the wards. People who struggle with the steps struggle with the wards and board exams.

Call me short sighted. Wait until you find out the promotion criteria for gen surg (hint, a standardized test have a lot to do with it).

How else am I suppose to tell applicants apart? Audition rotations are common in the AOA world but don't work well in an ACGME setting.

 

[SurgDoc95]

Damn dude. My bad - I apologise.

Thanks.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

People often assume that residents who do well on board exams are book smart and hospital dumb. In my experience folks who perform outstandingly on step 1 are also outstanding people on the wards. People who struggle with the steps struggle with the wards and board exams.

Call me short sighted. Wait until you find out the promotion criteria for gen surg (hint, a standardized test have a lot to do with it).

How else am I suppose to tell applicants apart? Audition rotations are common in the AOA world but don't work well in an ACGME setting.

I'm not assuming people who do well on standardised tests are hospital dumb, I'm just saying its kinda shortsighted to assume the two are inextricably linked. Anecdotally I know plenty of people who performed well in the hospital but had unremarkable board scores.

 

[Henry101]

Reading this thread as an MD student is so very interesting.
Anyone that says that board scores and success on wards is not correlated is flat out wrong.
Step 2 CK is literally an exam that tests diagnostic steps, imaging, and proper patient management. I don't know what the COMLEX equivalent is called but I am sure it is the same.

 

[Henry101]

Reading through Reddit today, it seems like a lot of DO students sign up for the USMLE but cancel within a week or so of the exam because of poor NBME results.

 

[DrWhozits]

Reading through Reddit today, it seems like a lot of DO students sign up for the USMLE but cancel within a week or so of the exam because of poor NBME results.

I know multiple 2nd years currently cancelling their USMLE for that reason and several from just pure burnout of studying/already having a 8 hr test

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Anyone that says that board scores and success on wards is not correlated is flat out wrong.

For step 2 yes absolutely, but there have been studies that show that Step 1 has zero correlation to clinical ability. Zero, none, non-existent.

 

[IslandStyle808]

This is kinda shortsighted, and I'm surprised that a residency trained physician puts this much stock in a simple number.

Yes, boards are important but making them the be all and end all is a sure fire way to end up with a batch of residents that are book smart and hospital dumb.

Yet it is the thing we have as DO students the most control over. DO school in general give these rotations that under prepare students for residency. Of course, students can catch up during 4th year, but then its too late.

The USMLE gives us DO students a fighting chance, when our schools are failing us in the other important parts. So while I agree there should not be much stalk in one exam from a morality stand point, but from a reality standpoint it is a good thing for us that so much stalk is put into it.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

For step 2 yes absolutely, but there have been studies that show that Step 1 has zero correlation to clinical ability. Zero, none, non-existent.

I wouldn't be too sure that there's zero correlation though. It is testing whether or not you learned something over your two years in medical school. But hence why it's a licensing exam.

 

[ortnakas]

For step 2 yes absolutely, but there have been studies that show that Step 1 has zero correlation to clinical ability. Zero, none, non-existent.

Not doubting you but I'd love to see your source on this. I'm curious at what timepoint they're measuring clinical ability. I'm guessing as a third year student or even as an intern with a shiny new degree it might correlate, because at that point book knowledge is the main thing you have going for you. Ten, twenty, thirty years into attending-hood, I don't think your ability to answer multiple choice questions about pathophysiological zebras has much to do with your ability to care for patients.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

Reading this thread as an MD student is so very interesting.
Anyone that says that board scores and success on wards is not correlated is flat out wrong.
Step 2 CK is literally an exam that tests diagnostic steps, imaging, and proper patient management. I don't know what the COMLEX equivalent is called but I am sure it is the same.

Have you taken either exam?

 

[DrfluffyMD]

For step 2 yes absolutely, but there have been studies that show that Step 1 has zero correlation to clinical ability. Zero, none, non-existent.

Yes and no. Multiple study showed that step 1 doesn't correlate well with clinical skills. However, it does have a correlation with gross motor skill in surgery and is linked to board passage rate.

However, like I said, it is the only tool that put everyone on the same play ground and evaluate them.

If I am seeing a DO applicant come across my desk (Mind you I already participate in residency recruitment), I don't know what most DO schools are besides the local ones, I don't know what COMLEX means, but I can argue your case a lot better when I can refer you as the 270 guy in the rank meeting

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Yes and no. Multiple study showed that step 1 doesn't correlate well with clinical skills. However, it does have a correlation with gross motor skill in surgery and is linked to board passage rate.

However, like I said, it is the only tool that put everyone on the same play ground and evaluate them.

If I am seeing a DO applicant come across my desk (Mind you I already participate in residency recruitment), I don't know what most DO schools are besides the local ones, I don't know what COMLEX means, but I can argue your case a lot better when I can refer you as the 270 guy in the rank meeting

I'll have an easier time breaking a 250 than I will learning to suture.

 

[COQueen]

What do you guys think RVU does differently where their students are required to take the USMLE in addition to the COMLEX?
If more DO schools required the USMLE, wouldn't most of these be non-issues?

Just bumping up my original question that no one has answered yet.

The decision was made many years ago because, before all of RVU's OPTI programs opened up, the community programs in CO were all ACGME and the Deans wanted students to match in the state. The first few classes did very poorly on Step 1. An independent review committee assessed the curriculum and found deficits which led to the hiring of Dr. Dubin from TCOM. Dr. Dubin implemented his "normal/abnormal" curriculum which has since been copied at a handful of DO and MD schools across the nation. There are still lots of faculty and students that do not like the curriculum and testing schedule and think it is a step backwards but it does a good job in preparing students for boards and the wards.

 

[AlteredScale]

The decision was made many years ago because, before all of RVU's OPTI programs opened up, the community programs in CO were all ACGME and the Deans wanted students to match in the state. The first few classes did very poorly on Step 1. An independent review committee assessed the curriculum and found deficits which led to the hiring of Dr. Dubin from TCOM. Dr. Dubin implemented his "normal/abnormal" curriculum which has since been copied at a handful of DO and MD schools across the nation. There are still lots of faculty and students that do not like the curriculum and testing schedule and think it is a step backwards but it does a good job in preparing students for boards and the wards.

Can you explain what you mean by why they felt it was a step backwards?


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[COQueen]

Can you explain what you mean by why they felt it was a step backwards?

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It mostly revolves around the first year curriculum and the length of breaks. Second year is great. I can message you details if you want.

 

[AlteredScale]

It mostly revolves around the first year curriculum and the length of breaks. Second year is great. I can message you details if you want.

I'm at KCU and we had Dr Dublin revamp our curriculum so I def understand the issues I just wanted to see if they were similar to what I felt.


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