REALITY of the merger: PD: "We went from 170 applications to 450 applications our first cycle"

[Señor S]

I literally know the most incompetent people ever who got jobs because they networked. It happens all the time. You just eat the whipped cream and you forget that the strawberries were plastic.

68PGunner is right; the importance of "connections" in medicine almost always hinges on a reasonable baseline of scores/grades/research/pedigree. I knew a lot of people like this at my (MD) school, who assumed that their incredibly mediocre records wouldn't matter because some faculty member who liked them would leverage his/her "connections" to get them a plum spot. It (almost) never happens.

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[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I don't usmle is as required as people think it is but it does offer you an advantage in a game where every advantage matters.

Pretty much. Take it and do well if you can. But if you're aiming for FM or Peds or something like that in the midwest, you're not going to be screwed or something.

 

[Ioannes Paulus]

How is that going to work? These DO programs are (mostly) going to be a last-ditch effort for MD applicants and the majority of their graduates will end up in non-academic positions. The Harvard graduate who trains at a community hospital in Florida is unlikely to then become a PD at MGH. And most of the people taking these spots won't be from Harvard, they'll be graduates of state/no-name private MD schools with good scores and grades but minimal research.

Better way to put it is this::

Average UCLA student with a 240 and 3 2nd author pubs wants to do ortho but knows he isn't competitive enough for USC or UCLA so he applies for Riverside, gets the interview. DO PD knows his program needs to pump out 10-20 papers a year now at least to keep his research requirements fulfilled per ACGME guidelines. He chooses the MD over the DO with similar stats because of research experience and more connections in so cal

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

68PGunner is right; the importance of "connections" in medicine almost always hinges on a reasonable baseline of scores/grades/research/pedigree. I knew a lot of people like this at my (MD) school, who assumed that their incredibly mediocre records wouldn't matter because some faculty member who liked them would leverage his/her "connections" to get them a plum spot. It (almost) never happens.

Not the connections I was talking about tbh. I'm just acknowledging that people have legitimate advantages in the match.

 

[hallowmann]

Exactly. I also think Dr. Ross who is very, very established in the osteopathic community has set a precedent that lets other DO PDs know that there are MDs out there who are not applying to formerly DO programs as safeties.
Also, by saying that elective rotations will slowly be fased out, he's essentially saying that the way they will be selecting interview applicants will be te traditional MD way where they screen applicants based on board scores. In the past, if you did an away at a DO ortho program you were at least given a curtesy interview.


Will other programs follow this same route or see similar changes (I.e. Ridiculously large increases in applicant number in an imcreadibly short period of time)? No one knows but this is the first kind of data we have now and it seems that the competition went up exponentially.

Your OP states that taking rotaters from other schools will be phased out, not that all elective rotations will be phased out. Sounds to me like they will still make it easy for interested DOs at their school to rotate, which would likely give them some edge. Some programs also make agreements with a handful of local schools for audition rotations, so I could see a similar thing happening.

I'm just having a hard time realizing that nearly 300 MDs sent their application to a program that received initial accreditation literally a few months ago, that had never taken an MD ever, that had a DO PD, and was a tiny community program with ~2-3 residents per year. 300 is a huge number in my opinion. I don't think many of us can visualize just what 300 more applicants looks like. 450 students vying for 2-3 slots. It's like they were tigers waiting to pounce on the prey. And this is just their first cycle. Imagine what the subsequent years will look like.

I'm not sure (didn't listen to the whole thing), but does he explicitly say US MD, or just MD? Pretty sure there are tons of US and non-US IMGs (along with some US MDs) that would drop the $26 and a click of a mouse to apply to any new ortho programs. 300 shouldn't be too surprising. There are literally foreign grads that use the "apply to every new program" as an application strategy.

Plus, don't forget it's in a desirable location. Sure there are more desirable places, but it's not like it's Erie or Tennessee or something.

I don't know; I'm probably a little biased because I'm in one of these residencies.

my politically correct answer is that the merger standardizes graduate medical education. prior to the merger, the ACGME and AOA had different requirements for my specialty. in my specialty, the AOA requirements were less rigid and less organized. the merger improved the requirements for my program, and I think that will make my training better overall.

the merger will also get rid of the "should I stay or should I go" thought process that goes through every osteopathic student's head when it comes time to submit a rank list. having two matches kinda sucks for competitive DO students seeking a competitive specialty. I've seen a lot of students get burned on that gamble, and I saw a lot of students who wanted to take the gamble but didn't in fear of getting burned.


my less-political answer is that it validates my training in a sense. i had my heart set on matching into the program that I matched into since 1st year of medical school. I spent a lot of time at this program in medical school. I got to see how amazing my program is and how incredible the faculty and staff were at this program. I knew that this is where I wanted to be from very early on, and it was nice to see that someone else realized that as well. it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside for the lack of a better explanation. there are a **** ton of incredible AOA programs out there with incredible residents. whether I like it or not, a lot of medical students view AOA residencies as subpar to ACGME residencies (at least in my field). the merger will help eliminate that.

another great advantage (possibly the best one) is that I will no longer have to pay a ****ing penny to the blood-sucking AOA. I've cancelled every single newsletter from them and cut off all my ties with them. feels fantastic. I don't have to bother becoming board certified by the AOA specialty board of my specialty. in order to maintain board certification in an AOA specialty, you need to pay dues, which is ****ing insane.

it'll be a little easier to get a job. I'd say 10-15% of the job postings for my specialty specifically request that the applicant be BCed by the ACGME specialty board in my field. while 85-90% of these postings are also cool with the AOA equivalent, it still opens up a couple more doors this way. this is probably more unique to my specialty than others, but I think it's worth pointing out.

I don't know. reading this back just sounds like a bunch of ramblings. while my heart does go out for the class of 2018, 2019, and maybe 2020, I do think this is the best thing for graduate medical education. hopefully I got my point across.

So I agree with a lot of this, but also want to point out that as of the most recent AOA letter I got (and possibly because of complaints or maybe even the merger) they are phasing out the requirement of being an active AOA member in order to maintain board certification. So that's one thing you hopefully won't have to worry about even if you do get AOA boarded.

 

[Señor S]

Better way to put it is this::

Average UCLA student with a 240 and 3 2nd author pubs wants to do ortho but knows he isn't competitive enough for USC or UCLA so he applies for Riverside, gets the interview. DO PD knows his program needs to pump out 10-20 papers a year now at least to keep his research requirements fulfilled per ACGME guidelines. He chooses the MD over the DO with similar stats because of research experience and more connections in so cal

That will happen too, although I think my scenario will be more common. I'm still not seeing how this leads to DO and MD applicants being considered broadly equivalent.

 

[hallowmann]

Not the connections I was talking about tbh. I'm just acknowledging that people have legitimate advantages in the match.

Yeah, to be honest, I've seen this too. Sure you need a minimum amount of qualifications to get a competitive spot, but a connection or two or three (real connection as in you golf every month with the chair or PD or aPD, etc. not one person liked me at a conference) would be enough to get you the spot over someone a bit more competitive, but without connections.

 

[DO2015CA]

Anecdotal but there is someone I know that just matched AOA ortho that was struggling to get Cs in preclinical years. Although idk his comlex I'm sure it was not impressive. The twist is his family member is one of the most influential ortho pods in the area. Got him a publication CV a mile long. I'm almost 100% sure he didn't meet this baseline y'all are talking about

 

[Goro]

I think the surgical subspecialties will tank hard for many DO students unless they seek out opportunities and connections to programs and or obtain comparable applications ( DOs with 240s and multiple publications). Or maybe it won't.

I wonder truly how many DOs there are with stats that actually parallel the average orthopedic applicant.

Probably about 5% of my students.

 

[Goro]

I'm just having a hard time realizing that nearly 300 MDs sent their application to a program that received initial accreditation literally a few months ago, that had never taken an MD ever, that had a DO PD, and was a tiny community program with ~2-3 residents per year. 300 is a huge number in my opinion. I don't think many of us can visualize just what 300 more applicants looks like. 450 students vying for 2-3 slots. It's like they were tigers waiting to pounce on the prey. And this is just their first cycle. Imagine what the subsequent years will look like.

But...but...it's Ortho!!!

Funny, when a bunch of us from the MD/residency side predicted exactly this we were told this group of applicants (competitive MD applicants who would apply to DO subspecialty programs and raise the bar) didn't exist.

This was one of the reasons I changed my tune, and follow your posts. You have been very sage in your observations.

I hope that more of our wise resident colleagues will chime in.

 

[jw3600]

Even as someone taking usmle, I think this is pretty heavy bs and needs qualifier before it is in any way true.

So qualify it.

 

[68PGunner]

Anecdotal but there is someone I know that just matched AOA ortho that was struggling to get Cs in preclinical years. Although idk his comlex I'm sure it was not impressive. The twist is his family member is one of the most influential ortho pods in the area. Got him a publication CV a mile long. I'm almost 100% sure he didn't meet this baseline y'all are talking about

Feel free to hope that you're going to be one of these guys then.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

So qualify it.

Required for
non-community IM.
GS & others
non-community Rads
non-community gas
EM


Recommended
community rads & gas
community im
psych & fm in specific areas or programs
generally uncompetitive specialties in more competitive locations

So no. No one's going to combust when they send in their application without a usmle.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Feel free to hope that you're going to be one of these guys then.

He's not saying that he is hoping for it, or even that he wants that specialty. He's just saying that it exists.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

It was pretty obvious that this is what would happen in surgical subspecialties. Although I bet he (PD) still favors DO's all things being equal (i.e. boards etc).

 

[Mr Roboto]

For those wanting EM, the number of AOA programs is rapidly dwindling. The majority of AOA programs who sought ACGME accreditation did so as 3-year programs, and thus are no long able to match residents through AOA since they require 4-year programs. Easy choice for them to make ultimately since for ACGME they have to have a significant reason to justify a fourth residency year. This is compounded by the size requirements... ACGME requires 6 residents per class, AOA requires just 4. So if you're having 4 residents stay for 4 years that's 16, but having 6 residents for 4 years means expanding to 32. Huge jump.

tl;dr - EM is gonna have a lot more competition too next year

 

[DO2015CA]

Feel free to hope that you're going to be one of these guys then.

Lol no thanks. You won't catch me dead in a surgical specialty. I also don't think anyone should think they can do it. My point was matching is a grey zone. For 1000x people that have the merits to match, there will be that one silver spooned student that gets what they want

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

So what? At the same time those 170 applicants from before are going to be applying to ACGME residencies with their 240+ scores. We also don't know the caliber of the extra applicants. I bet at least half are applications from the Caribbean that will be tossed out.

 

[Peach Newport]

This is going to be a big problem for DO schools without research.

You don't only need board scores for competitive residencies, you need to get Published. Without pubs for some fields, even a 260 Wont save you. Pretty much all MDs are virtually guaranteed a few pubs if they want it. Most DO schools don't have any research opportunities, so DO students need personal connections to get published, which is why most have zero publications.

I predict the schools without research (most of them) will take a big hit as applicants realize that the school they go to will actually have a major impact on their ability to match.

 

[68PGunner]

This is going to be a big problem for DO schools without research.

You don't only need board scores for competitive residencies, you need to get Published. Without pubs for some fields, even a 260 Wont save you. Pretty much all MDs are virtually guaranteed a few pubs if they want it. Most DO schools don't have any research opportunities, so DO students need personal connections to get published, which is why most have zero publications.

I predict the schools without research (most of them) will take a big hit as applicants realize that the school they go to will actually have a major impact on their ability to match.

You can always take a gap year if you want to build up that research portfolio. However, you're boned from a field like ENT if you score below a 240. Just ask @failedatlife

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

This is going to be a big problem for DO schools without research.

You don't only need board scores for competitive residencies, you need to get Published. Without pubs for some fields, even a 260 Wont save you. Pretty much all MDs are virtually guaranteed a few pubs if they want it. Most DO schools don't have any research opportunities, so DO students need personal connections to get published, which is why most have zero publications.

I predict the schools without research (most of them) will take a big hit as applicants realize that the school they go to will actually have a major impact on their ability to match.

I don't agree with this. Top programs may want research, but those programs won't be opening their door to DOs. Mid and low-tier programs won't pass on an applicant for lack of research. Besides, you can do clinically oriented research in 3rd year.

 

[throw_away5122]

you all seem to forget the fact that D.O. students have to shoulder 200+ hrs of OMM theory and practical, thus it will cut on studying time for USMLE significantly (did I mention D.O. must also study and take COMLEX in addition). Everyone says oh just put in more effort to study but guess what M.D. students also study hard day and night too, and they dont have dead weight of OMM attached to it. The fact that USMLE is the only matter is just not fair to D.O., they at least must consider COMLEX as equal.

 

[68PGunner]

you all seem to forget the fact that D.O. students have to shoulder 200+ hrs of OMM theory and practical, thus it will cut on studying time for USMLE significantly (did I mention D.O. must also study and take COMLEX in addition). Everyone says oh just put in more effort to study but guess what M.D. students also study hard day and night too, and they dont have dead weight of OMM attached to it. The fact that USMLE is the only matter is just not fair to D.O., they at least must consider COMLEX as equal.

My grade in OMM has gone from mid 90s at the beginning of the year to mid 80s nowadays. I still don't care. I normally nail 90% of the key OMM quests right in term of diagnosis and everything. I always get the research and history for OMM quests wrong bc I give zero care about it. I honestly don't even study for this class nowadays with the exception of the weekly mandatory 4 hrs in the lab.

 

[DO2015CA]

My grade in OMM has gone from mid 90s at the beginning of the year to mid 80s nowadays. I still don't care. I normally nail 90% of the key OMM quests right in term of diagnosis and everything. I always get the research and history for OMM quests wrong bc I give zero care about it. I honestly don't even study for this class nowadays with the exception of the weekly mandatory 4 hrs in the lab.

Wow In second year your questions are still history and research in omt? Crazy. That may be the norm but at my whole we only had the research done in OMM and it's history first semester of first year. After that it was all techniques and theory

 

[Dr. Death]

you all seem to forget the fact that D.O. students have to shoulder 200+ hrs of OMM theory and practical, thus it will cut on studying time for USMLE significantly (did I mention D.O. must also study and take COMLEX in addition). Everyone says oh just put in more effort to study but guess what M.D. students also study hard day and night too, and they dont have dead weight of OMM attached to it. The fact that USMLE is the only matter is just not fair to D.O., they at least must consider COMLEX as equal.

I don't think this is as big a barrier as you are cracking it up to be. You take USMLE a week before you take COMLEX and during that week you do 100% of your OMM studying. And OMM isn't that big of a time suck at some schools. During spring 2nd year we only have about 40 hours of OMM including both lecture and lab.

 

[hbslax4]

I don't think this is as big a barrier as you are cracking it up to be. You take USMLE a week before you take COMLEX and during that week you do 100% of your OMM studying. And OMM isn't that big of a time suck at some schools. During spring 2nd year we only have about 40 hours of OMM including both lecture and lab.

I agree, I don't think this is a barrier at all. At my school we haven't had any OMM related tests or competencies in over a month. By the time we take boards we will have been OMM free for 3 months. Not really cutting into USMLE study time... And like you mentioned, just do a quick OMM refresher after USMLE.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Mr Roboto]

I disagree. I'm at one of the "less emphasized" omm schools and it is a complete time suck. Over two years how many hours do you think you could of applied towards sleeping, studying things that matter, etc.? It's definitely in the hundreds.

I probably spend more time on SDN than on OMM, and my school places a decent emphasis on that class.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

they at least must consider COMLEX as equal.

Here is 2cents from a guy who is interested in academic medicine and will try to become an IR PD.

I don't understand the COMLEX at all and unfortunately I didn't have enough DO colleagues during my training to understand it. All my DO colleagues have USMLE scores (all > 245 I may add) and I understand the effort needed for that score on a personal level.

I will never understand what 400,500,or 600 on the COMLEX mean on a visceral level because I never gone through it, especially when my DO buddy with higher step 1 score told me that the two exams are NOT comparable and it's both easier and harder in a way.

If I become a PD it will be likely that I will require USMLE scores.

 

[River Rat]

you all seem to forget the fact that D.O. students have to shoulder 200+ hrs of OMM theory and practical, thus it will cut on studying time for USMLE significantly (did I mention D.O. must also study and take COMLEX in addition). Everyone says oh just put in more effort to study but guess what M.D. students also study hard day and night too, and they dont have dead weight of OMM attached to it. The fact that USMLE is the only matter is just not fair to D.O., they at least must consider COMLEX as equal.

Or....just study for the USMLE, the test that matters, and spend the weekend before the COMLEX reading Saverese. It's really not that hard and anyone saying otherwise doesn't have the right mentality. Whenever I hear a DO student mention how they have to study for "two different tests" I roll my eyes. Truth is if you rock the USMLE no one will GAF about your COMLEX.

We learn out of the same books, learn the same material, anyone saying otherwise is just trying to martyr themselves. If you hammer out everything you need to know for the USMLE, you'll absolutely have the medical knowledge needed of the COMLEX. Doing the diff Q banks will help you get your bearings straight on how each test write their questions (we all know the USMLE writes more succinct and clearer questions compared to the COMLEX,) but the knowledge base is still the same. You can spend less than a week on OMM and be fine, it's not rocket science. That's my n=1 but it's how I got my 240+, 600+ Step scores so take it for what it's worth.

 

[River Rat]

Here is 2cents from a guy who is interested in academic medicine and will try to become an IR PD.

I don't understand the COMLEX at all and unfortunately I didn't have enough DO colleagues during my training to understand it. All my DO colleagues have USMLE scores (all > 245 I may add) and I understand the effort needed for that score on a personal level.

I will never understand what 400,500,or 600 on the COMLEX mean on a visceral level because I never gone through it, especially when my DO buddy with higher step 1 score told me that the two exams are NOT comparable and it's both easier and harder in a way.

If I become a PD it will be likely that I will require USMLE scores.

I second all this, but would like to add that if I came across a DO applicant without USMLE scores, it would look unfavorable because it would make me feel like this is a person who couldn't sack up and put in the effort to take the test that's considered the gold standard. You're either a) lazy, b) unmotivated, c) likes taking shortcuts or d) lack the courage to try and possibly risk an unideal score. None of those are ideal. I'm no PD, nor do I have any experience on any interview committee (yet), so I am only speaking from my own personal human perceptions, but at the end of the day, I'd probably feel better with an applicant with an average USMLE score with decent COMLEX scores vs an applicant with "great", but untranslatable, COMLEX scores but no USMLE. At least it tells me the person is motivated to try.

 

[Goro]

This is going to be a big problem for DO schools without research.

You don't only need board scores for competitive residencies, you need to get Published. Without pubs for some fields, even a 260 Wont save you. Pretty much all MDs are virtually guaranteed a few pubs if they want it. Most DO schools don't have any research opportunities, so DO students need personal connections to get published, which is why most have zero publications.

I predict the schools without research (most of them) will take a big hit as applicants realize that the school they go to will actually have a major impact on their ability to match.

Never, ever underestimate the naivete, if not outright ignorance of applicants. Just how many applicants know that one needs research and pubs AND high step scores for the uber residencies/specialties?

If people apply to DO schools without even knowing that they have a 2/3 chance of ending up in Primary Care, that's on them.

EDIT: Off the top of my head, one can find decent research programs in cities where the following are, or near:

KCU
MUCOM
Touro-NY
NYITCOM
PCOM
Western
TCOM
Nova
CCOM

I agree that people at the newer schools will be more at a disadvantage. But resourceful students will find a way. One of mine just finished up a research rotation at one of the Really Top Schools (NYU/Sinai class).

Still, in the Big Picture, this is all part of the evolving process of American medical education.

 

[TheaterOfTheme]

Never, ever underestimate the naivete, if not outright ignorance of applicants. Just how many applicants know that one needs research and pubs AND high step scores for the uber residencies/specialties?

If people apply to DO schools without even knowing that they have a 2/3 chance of ending up in Primary Care, that's on them.

EDIT: Off the top of my head, one can find decent research programs in cities where the following are, or near:

KCU
MUCOM
Touro-NY
NYITCOM
PCOM
Western
TCOM
Nova
CCOM

I agree that people at the newer schools will be more at a disadvantage. But resourceful students will find a way. One of mine just finished up a research rotation at one of the Really Top Schools (NYU/Sinai class).

Still, in the Big Picture, this is all part of the evolving process of American medical education.

When you talk about finding research, is it mostly clinical you are referring to? Or basic research?

 

[Mr Roboto]

Never, ever underestimate the naivete, if not outright ignorance of applicants. Just how many applicants know that one needs research and pubs AND high step scores for the uber residencies/specialties?

If people apply to DO schools without even knowing that they have a 2/3 chance of ending up in Primary Care, that's on them.

EDIT: Off the top of my head, one can find decent research programs in cities where the following are, or near:

KCU
MUCOM
Touro-NY
NYITCOM
PCOM
Western
TCOM
Nova
CCOM

I agree that people at the newer schools will be more at a disadvantage. But resourceful students will find a way. One of mine just finished up a research rotation at one of the Really Top Schools (NYU/Sinai class).

Still, in the Big Picture, this is all part of the evolving process of American medical education.

Pardon my MS1 ignorance, but what do you mean by a research rotation? Is this something during MS3/4 where you do an away rotation where all you do is a research project?

 

[Goro]

Pardon my MS1 ignorance, but what do you mean by a research rotation? Is this something during MS3/4 where you do an away rotation where all you do is a research project?

Yes. It's an elective at my school.

 

[Goro]

When you talk about finding research, is it mostly clinical you are referring to? Or basic research?

Either

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Never, ever underestimate the naivete, if not outright ignorance of applicants. Just how many applicants know that one needs research and pubs AND high step scores for the uber residencies/specialties?

If people apply to DO schools without even knowing that they have a 2/3 chance of ending up in Primary Care, that's on them.

EDIT: Off the top of my head, one can find decent research programs in cities where the following are, or near:

KCU
MUCOM
Touro-NY
NYITCOM
PCOM
Western
TCOM
Nova
CCOM

I agree that people at the newer schools will be more at a disadvantage. But resourceful students will find a way. One of mine just finished up a research rotation at one of the Really Top Schools (NYU/Sinai class).

Still, in the Big Picture, this is all part of the evolving process of American medical education.

Don't forget OSU, MSU and OUHCOM. The state schools probably have more research available than a number of other schools combined.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Just use percentiles. The grading could be in letters. Or favorite cereal brand. Perhaps clothing sizes. Same goes for usmle. It could be a system of innate objects. It doesn't matter because of percentiles...

Actually percentile doesn't work because the populations who are taking the test at large are different.

One thing I can think of is to gather a large enough samples of folks who take both, so perhaps I can then see trends like 240 = 600 (just as an example).

 

[Mr Roboto]

Actually percentile doesn't work because the populations who are taking the test at large are different.

One thing I can think of is to gather a large enough samples of folks who take both, so perhaps I can then see trends like 240 = 600 (just as an example).

Even then it doesn't work because the population is self-selected. Plenty of people getting 600s on COMLEX might have chosen not to take USMLE, and had they taken it would've gotten a sub-240 (sticking with your numbers).

 

[River Rat]

Yes yes, I understand that. What I was responding to was you saying you don't know what a 400/500/600 etc. means. If you use percentiles that is irrelevant. Was my only point.

they are two different populations. A 85%ile on the COMLEX means what, exactly? That you beat out 85% of DO's? Is this a case of a big fish in a small pond? Obviously it's still an exam, and no walk in the park, so your success on it means something, but the wide variance in scores does little to help the fact that they will still not know how to assess us. There is a huge problem with DO schools/students in the eyes of PDs in how to stratify them amongst their MD peers. Most clinical rotation sites are very poorly regulated and these PDs know to take our Honors with a grain of salt, versus the very highly structured MD clinical curriculum where it's tough as nails to get honors. They legit make it so that the top 10-15% of the class are able to pull off those marks and no one else, so when someone makes AOA you know it's worth a damn. So where does that leave us? They may not be outwardly prejudiced vs DOs, as most doctors have worked with plenty of competent DOs and will admit as such, but they just don't know how to stratify us. There's a great PD AMA thread in the Radiology sub-forum that says as much.

Long story short, you would not be doing yourself any favors by denying yourself the one item on your resume that they CAN compare to your MD counterparts.

edit: Would like to add that this becomes truer as you start aiming for more and more desired/competitive specialties. Of course you can get away with COMLEX only for certain fields, before someone provides some anecdotal evidence about someone matching ACGME such and such in some random part of the country.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Exactly, I have heard of conversion formulas before like a 650 complex is 245 or something, but some say the conversion undermines the COMLEX

I don't ever want to get into that. To be safe, just take the USMLE.

 

[68PGunner]

BTW, it's common for MDs at big names to take a gap year for research. One of my undergrad classmates went to JHU for medical school. He's currently doing a cardio fellowship right now. However, he def took a gap year bet 3rd and 4th year to beef up his research portfolio. It's not the end of the world if you're interested in one of those desired specialties out there.

 

[Mr Roboto]

BTW, it's common for MDs at big names to take a gap year for research. One of my undergrad classmates went to JHU for medical school. He's currently doing a cardio fellowship right now. However, he def took a gap year bet 3rd and 4th year to beef up his research portfolio. It's not the end of the world if you're interested in one of those desired specialties out there.

And at some of the big name schools, they have a research year built in... but still graduate in 4 years.

 

[ParallelLines]

I am just a lowly incoming 1st year aiming to match competitive specialties, and never once has the thought of not taking USMLE crossed my mind. I cannot believe there are DOs out there that want to play with the big boys but won't take USMLE.

To be the best, you have to beat the best.

 

[DO2015CA]

I am just a lowly incoming 1st year aiming to match competitive specialties, and never once has the thought of not taking USMLE crossed my mind. I cannot believe there are DOs out there that want to play with the big boys but won't take USMLE.

To be the best, you have to beat the best.

Lol that hasn't crossed your mind because you havent made it to that time yet. The vast majority of students that enter OMSI also plan on taking the USMLE, but decide against it for their own reasons. DO schools don't teach biochem nearly to the degree required for the USMLE. Only taking comlex crosses most peoples minds when board studying. You just have to tell yourself you are thinking craziness. The study process is a long grueling time period filled with much despair (thanks to UW).

The students that should not take the USMLE are the ones that are at risk of failing. These students obviously aren't going to be competitive for much outside of primary care specialties. For these people, it is unnecessary to take the USMLE because FM, Peds, and certain IM programs don't mind you not having a USMLE. They are better off focusing on just the comlex and trying to score as high as possible.

 

[Ioannes Paulus]

I am just a lowly incoming 1st year aiming to match competitive specialties, and never once has the thought of not taking USMLE crossed my mind. I cannot believe there are DOs out there that want to play with the big boys but won't take USMLE.

\\

Talk is easy. Everyone walks in thinking or hoping to take the exam. But, again, that is not the reality. Go read the exam forums. So many OMS-II kids sign up for the USMLE only to cancel their date 2 weeks out. It IS a different test. Many (maybe even most) OMS-II students simply find out that they are not prepared for it. There is someone who literally posted 1 day ago on this same forum who scored in the upper 25th% on the COMLEX but in the bottom 25th% on the USMLE. Talk is cheap and easy. Reality is most DO schools do not prepare you for the higher level thinking required for the USMLE. How/Why should they? Some of these newer schools have average MCATs that are ridiculously low. You can't bring these people up to par in 1-2 years to take the USMLE and that's a truth no one wants to admit but it's the reality.

 

[68PGunner]

I am just a lowly incoming 1st year aiming to match competitive specialties, and never once has the thought of not taking USMLE crossed my mind. I cannot believe there are DOs out there that want to play with the big boys but won't take USMLE.

To be the best, you have to beat the best.

There're legitimate kids out there 2 weeks from board with 5-7 blocks to review for board and haven't gone through Uworld or any Qbank yet. Like loannes Paulus, talk is easy. Most people in medical school start off as hard core gunners. However, after 1st semester, the majority of your classmates are just happy to be passing classes while maintaining their sanity.

If you want to succeed, you can't be complacent. You need to search for that inner drive to continually improve and push yourself to new limits. I'm a hardcore competitor, so I approach everything with a chip on my shoulder. If you have access to my inner thoughts, you should think that I'm the most miserable SOB out there bc I always search for flaws and imperfections in my performance in order to streamline my routine to perfection.

 

[IsWhat]

\\

Talk is easy. Everyone walks in thinking or hoping to take the exam. But, again, that is not the reality. Go read the exam forums. So many OMS-II kids sign up for the USMLE only to cancel their date 2 weeks out. It IS a different test. Many (maybe even most) OMS-II students simply find out that they are not prepared for it. There is someone who literally posted 1 day ago on this same forum who scored in the upper 25th% on the COMLEX but in the bottom 25th% on the USMLE. Talk is cheap and easy. Reality is most DO schools do not prepare you for the higher level thinking required for the USMLE. How/Why should they? Some of these newer schools have average MCATs that are ridiculously low. You can't bring these people up to par in 1-2 years to take the USMLE and that's a truth no one wants to admit but it's the reality.

The reality is most medical schools worth their salt on the MD side also do not teach to the USMLE, and I would argue that is a good thing. The difference being most MD students know through upper classmen in their program (or even the school itself) what areas to supplement for the USMLE. Many DO students tend to lack these resources.

 

[JB50]

How is that going to work? These DO programs are (mostly) going to be a last-ditch effort for MD applicants and the majority of their graduates will end up in non-academic positions. The Harvard graduate who trains at a community hospital in Florida is unlikely to then become a PD at MGH. And most of the people taking these spots won't be from Harvard, they'll be graduates of state/no-name private MD schools with good scores and grades but minimal research.

I highly doubt that. You are speaking out of your cornhole.

 

[kc52]

Lol that hasn't crossed your mind because you have made it to that time yet. The vast majority of students that enter OMSI also plan on taking the USMLE, but decide against it for their own reasons. DO schools don't teach biochem nearly to the degree required for the USMLE. Only taking comlex crosses most peoples minds when board studying. You just have to tell yourself you are thinking craziness. The study process is a long grueling time period filled with much despair (thanks to UW).

The students that should not take the USMLE are the ones that are at risk of failing. These students obviously aren't going to be competitive for much outside of primary care specialties. For these people, it is unnecessary to take the USMLE because FM, Peds, and certain IM programs don't mind you not having a USMLE. They are better off focusing on just the comlex and trying to score as high as possible.

How do you conclude that DO schools don't teach biochem to the level of MD schools?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[grapefruit17]

Only 30 out of around 150, including myself took usmle in my class. Many registered but many also cancelled. Sdn makes it seem like getting a 230 or 240 is easy but honestly it's way harder then people think. When your school decides to have mandatory classes second year and only gives you a few weeks for boards. Yea not easy : /. Plus omm..that class took up a lot of time. And at my school omm was harder then classes like neuro.