REALITY of the merger: PD: "We went from 170 applications to 450 applications our first cycle"

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I think pretending that there aren't going to be differences in the knowledge bases of different graduates of schools probably isn't right. That being said I doubt any non top 10 school will have students as well trained and exposed as UCLA.

Clinical training has nothing to do with research ranking. It has to do with availability and breadth of affilated hospital / clinical training site. For example, University of Kansas MD students are probably as well trained as UcLA. DO schools that rotate kids in 100 bed hospitals won't.

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Clinical training has nothing to do with research ranking. It has to do with availability and breadth of affilated hospital / clinical training site. For example, University of Kansas MD students are probably as well trained as UcLA. DO schools that rotate kids in 100 bed hospitals won't.

That's what I said. UCLA has a big hospital with a wide range of pathology and a probably the some of the best doctors in the world.

And I agree. It's one of the reasons I'm decently content with my school as we rotate most of our students in larger hospitals most of the time. Most of my non-FM rotations will be done in a >300 bed hospital.
 
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That's what I said. UCLA has a big hospital with a wide range of pathology and a probably the some of the best doctors in the world.

And I agree. It's one of the reasons I'm decently content with my school as we rotate most of our students in larger hospitals most of the time. Most of my non-FM rotations will be done in a >300 bed hospital.

This is just something i want to butt in and make a point of, i get the feeling on SDN that DO schools as a whole tend to all get jumbled into the "subpar clinical training category". While i could probably name around 10 DO schools that ive heard have quite solid clinical training. While i have no first hand experience at any of these school and no clinical experience at my own school yet, i definitely think this "all DO schools = bad clinical training" train of thought isnt accurate. And since DrFluffyMD (i believe it was him/her) said they one day hope to be a PD and want to accurately understand and rank DOs, i think its worthy to mention this.


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This is just something i want to butt in and make a point of, i get the feeling on SDN that DO schools as a whole tend to all get jumbled into the "subpar clinical training category". While i could probably name around 10 DO schools that ive heard have quite solid clinical training. While i have no first hand experience at any of these school and no clinical experience at my own school yet, i definitely think this "all DO schools = bad clinical training" train of thought isnt accurate. And since DrFluffyMD (i believe it was him/her) said they one day hope to be a PD and want to accurately understand and rank DOs, i think its worthy to mention this.


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I have a pretty good idea about clinical training of many DO students because they are my colleague and we compare notes. Unfortunately the pathology they see really pales compared to what MD students see UNLESS they rotate in a teritary care center where all the regional referall goes to.

In fact, my best friend who happened to be a DO was surprised about how much he doesn't get to see during med school, and he did almost all his rotations in fairly sizable hospitals.

Point is, you aren't going to know what you haven't been exposed to. So the best bet is to get to the biggest hospital you can get to for further training.
 
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I have a pretty good idea about clinical training of many DO students because they are my colleague and we compare notes. Unfortunately the pathology they see really pales compared to what MD students see UNLESS they rotate in a teritary care center where all the regional referall goes to.

In fact, my best friend who happened to be a DO was surprised about how much he doesn't get to see during med school, and he did almost all his rotations in fairly sizable hospitals.

Point is, you aren't going to know what you haven't been exposed to. So the best bet is to get to the biggest hospital you can get to for further training.

Fair point, i can definitely understand and agree with that. You dont know what you dont know, and cant compare if you havent seen both sides of the coin


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You cannot be serious! You don't think better 3rd/4th year translates to better intern.

That has not been my observation thus far. Everyone hits intern year with similar skills. The MD interns in my program don't stand out any more or less than the DO interns.
 
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That has not been my observation thus far. Everyone hits intern year with similar skills. The MD interns in my program don't stand out any more or less than the DO interns.

I was told by a peds PD he finds that MDs that come in have a little better handle on the knowledge base portion, but that the DOs are much more comfortable talking to and dealing with patients. Could be an anomaly but that was his take. Said after a year there is very little to no difference between the two.
 
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I was told by a peds PD he finds that MDs that come in have a little better handle on the knowledge base portion, but that the DOs are much more comfortable talking to and dealing with patients. Could be an anomaly but that was his take. Said after a year there is very little to no difference between the two.

DO's got the highest ITE score in my class both years we've taken it so far.

I don't think you can make generalizations like that. I also think that the MD clinical rotation advantage is way overstated. It helps to come from an MD program for ACGME matching, but DO's hit residency with similar skills and knowledge base to MD's (in general, there are always exceptions).
 
DO's got the highest ITE score in my class both years we've taken it so far.

I don't think you can make generalizations like that. I also think that the MD clinical rotation advantage is way overstated. It helps to come from an MD program for ACGME matching, but DO's hit residency with similar skills and knowledge base to MD's (in general, there are always exceptions).

Not saying that's how it is since I have zero first hand experience that's just what he (PD at university program) told me!
 
Why don't of you guys just unzip while another gets the ruler?
 
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To bring the thread back on topic, just want to add that my school's general surgery program has gotten initial accreditation and just updated their website and said that they now require the USMLE and applicants must have at least a 230 to be considered.
 
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To bring the thread back on topic, just want to add that my school's general surgery program has gotten initial accreditation and just updated their website and said that they now require the USMLE and applicants must have at least a 230 to be considered.
They will find plenty of US MD applicants with 230+ and IMG with 250+...
 
To bring the thread back on topic, just want to add that my school's general surgery program has gotten initial accreditation and just updated their website and said that they now require the USMLE and applicants must have at least a 230 to be considered.
Link?
 
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Some people seem to be conflating 3rd/4th year to residency in terms of the degree that it affects your knowledge. They're not comparable. You should absolutely as a DO be trying to strive for a great residency program, and usually this means a strong ACGME program, because this will have the greatest impact on how you practice.

Also, I know some DO schools rotate the majority of their students through horribly small places, but that is not the case across the board. I never rotated on the inpatient side of a hospital that was smaller than 250 beds, and I did multiple rotations at systems with 500-600 beds. It really varies both from school to school and even student to student.

I was told by a peds PD he finds that MDs that come in have a little better handle on the knowledge base portion, but that the DOs are much more comfortable talking to and dealing with patients. Could be an anomaly but that was his take. Said after a year there is very little to no difference between the two.

Most people I've talked to have said something similar in terms of everyone being the same by the middle or end of intern year, if they even see a difference in the beginning at all.

Peds is a field that I feel is likely heavily affected by whether or not you attended a good school with rotations through a Children's hospital. A lot of DO schools don't, and most regular hospitals simply don't have the peds volume to support the level of learning you'd get at a Children's hospital. It's more a product of the way the field of peds has changed over the years (i.e. significantly less admissions for "regular" illness and less sick kids thanks to vaccinations) than anything else. Because if that you'll see very different things in a Children's than you will on your core peds rotation at the majority of DO schools.

I think there are a couple different fields that are affected more by poor exposure early on than others. FM, Psych, EM, Anesthesia, Rads, etc. are pretty much practiced similarly enough wherever you are that it's not a huge deal. Peds, most surgical programs save maybe Ortho or General depending on where you are, and maybe OB (again depending on volume) are fields I see where going to a smaller community hospital for 3rd and 4th yr may be detrimental.


I'm also interested in seeing the link.

Given the attitude in his posts it really sounds like he's based in a DO unfriendly area.
 
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It looks like they just want about a 50th percentile board score no matter the test because the USMLE requirement is 230 and the COMLEX is 525.
 
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Well, that's inbreeding for ya...

I personally can't chastise them for that. My school does the same thing with our orthopedic residency program. Should I ever decide ortho's for me, I'd be lying if I said I mind inbreeding.
 
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It wasn't "just" updated, but I presume s/he's talking about this program: General Surgery Residency | Denver | Swedish Medical Center

Seems odd considering a good chunk of people that match ACGME Surgery score <230 but the Denver area is a relatively desirable area.

Didn't that program just start in 2016 or 2015? That's hardly a change if we're talking about a brand new program that wasn't even around when the merger was decided on. Sons more like a new program trying to figure things out.

If that's the one they were talking about, it doesn't really make the point they were going for.

It looks like they just want about a 50th percentile board score no matter the test because the USMLE requirement is 230 and the COMLEX is 525.

Exactly. Seems pretty straightforward on their part.

It also doesn't explicitly say you have to take both (I mean obviously MDs aren't taking the COMLEX). It sounds more like a one or the other thing, but you'd probably have to contact the program to be sure.
 
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There is no good reason to do this. Even if you had a major life event or family concerns, you can delay a year to get these issues worked out. If you wanted to be in a certain area geographically, that's also dumb because there is a good chance you will have to relocate for residency anyway. If money was the issue, the MD school puts you in a better spot to get into a high earning specialty so that's a wash.

There are two types of DO students, those that couldn't get into an MD school and those that could but have seriously flawed decision making skills.

^That's why the USMLE is a positive for DO students. They can prove that they might have attended a DO school but have learned enough medicine to be equal or better than the majority of MDs applying for the same spot. Take away the USMLE, and PDs will assume all DOs are second tier to their MD counterparts for the reason I mentioned above.

I don't understand why it's assumed that going to a DO school over MD is "bad judgment."

The cost/benefit of MD vs DO is not exactly easy and straightforward. It's a complicated subject to research. It's highly nuanced and filled with confusing factors.

As a pre-med, this is what you have a pre-med advising office for. Lots of pre-med advisors (like mine) say there's very little trade-off to being a DO. In fact, the only place where you can really find the nuances of the debate is on SDN... which my advising office specifically told me to disregard. Is it bad judgment to listen to your schools advising?

What the hell kind of PD would say "well you have bad judgment for listening to your pre-med advisor. The right answer was 'lurk on student doctor network.'"

My premed advisor (at an Ivy League school) told me that the only tradeoff to doing a DO over an MD is a perceived difference in prestige, and that realistically it would have a "negligible" impact on my career opportunities. I guess I had bad judgment for listening to my advising office instead of an anonymous forum.
 
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I don't understand why it's assumed that going to a DO school over MD is "bad judgment."

The cost/benefit of MD vs DO is not exactly easy and straightforward. It's a complicated subject to research. It's highly nuanced and filled with confusing factors.

As a pre-med, this is what you have a pre-med advising office for. Lots of pre-med advisors (like mine) say there's very little trade-off to being a DO. In fact, the only place where you can really find the nuances of the debate is on SDN... which my advising office specifically told me to disregard. Is it bad judgment to listen to your schools advising?

What the hell kind of PD would say "well you have bad judgment for listening to your pre-med advisor. The right answer was 'lurk on student doctor network.'"

My premed advisor (at an Ivy League school) told me that the only tradeoff to doing a DO over an MD is a perceived difference in prestige, and that realistically it would have a "negligible" impact on my career opportunities. I guess I had bad judgment for listening to my advising office instead of an anonymous forum.

When you're sorting through thousands of applications there's simply not enough time for nuance; you're going to rely on a few heuristics, including school quality, to narrow the pool down. Most DO students are assumed to have gone DO because they couldn't get into an MD school--and most DO clinical experience is assumed to be in community hospitals with a non-academic culture--because both of these things are true, to first approximation anyways.
 
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I don't understand why it's assumed that going to a DO school over MD is "bad judgment."

The cost/benefit of MD vs DO is not exactly easy and straightforward. It's a complicated subject to research. It's highly nuanced and filled with confusing factors.

As a pre-med, this is what you have a pre-med advising office for. Lots of pre-med advisors (like mine) say there's very little trade-off to being a DO. In fact, the only place where you can really find the nuances of the debate is on SDN... which my advising office specifically told me to disregard. Is it bad judgment to listen to your schools advising?

What the hell kind of PD would say "well you have bad judgment for listening to your pre-med advisor. The right answer was 'lurk on student doctor network.'"

My premed advisor (at an Ivy League school) told me that the only tradeoff to doing a DO over an MD is a perceived difference in prestige, and that realistically it would have a "negligible" impact on my career opportunities. I guess I had bad judgment for listening to my advising office instead of an anonymous forum.

You know, your advisor would have been correct before the 2020 merger. Some said it's easier to get into DO ortho as a DO than to get into a MD ortho as an MD.

However, after 2020, things maybe a bit different. Especially with closing of audition rotations.
 
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You know, your advisor would have been correct before the 2020 merger. Some said it's easier to get into DO ortho as a DO than to get into a MD ortho as an MD.

However, after 2020, things maybe a bit different. Especially with closing of audition rotations.

Are audition rotations really closing? I mean, all we have is this one interview to base that on. I was under the impression that even in the ACGME world there were audition-type rotations (based on posts in the resident forum).


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I guess there is no safe space anymore for DO... You guys/gals will be competing in the big league in a few years...
 
You talk a lot of s.hit for someone paranoid about matching at all with a 220 and being a us md. Suffice to say your judgment is questionable at best. Even further when one considers the majority have been playing in the "big leagues" for quite some time now-- your dick isn't as big as you think it is.
I am just saying it like it is... You guys will get pushed more into primary care. Attack the messenger if that makes you feel good. You guys were also attacking @MeatTornado when he was saying DO will get the short end of the stick. Well, he is probably saying now: 'I told you so.' I am very pro DO and I think the merger is/was a mistake. How do you guys expect to compete with MD students when they have more resources for the most part, and they are not burden by OMM and another bogus board?
 
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I am just saying it like it is... You guys will get pushed more into primary care. Attack the messenger if that makes you feel good. You guys were also attacking @MeatTornado when he was saying DO will get the short end of the stick. Well, he is probably saying now: 'I told you so.' I am very pro DO and I think the merger is/was a mistake. How do you guys expect to compete with MD students when they have more resources for the most part, and they are not burden by OMM and another bogus board?
I was burdened by OMM and another bogus boards and still ended up scoring better than >90% of test takers. Its more individual effort than you think
 
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How do you guys expect to compete with MD students when they have more resources for the most part, and they are not burden by OMM and another bogus board?

You act like the OMM and "another bogus board" preclude DO students from getting just as good of a score on the USMLE as MD students.

Regarding the rest of your point from where I stand, this is how I see it:

We've been always competing with the MD students even before the merger, so competing with you guys on that front is nothing new. Even though this will mean former AOA residency programs being less friendly to DO, I still doubt it'll be as significantly less friendly as the apocalyptic claims make it so. Some DO friendly programs I'm sure will still stay DO friendly, only this time a few seats here and there will be reserved for MD, but I'm sure those programs will still give some form of preferences to DOs over MDs nonetheless.

But as far as I can see it, it means very little for us eyeing out for those competitive specialties that were already significantly MD friendly to begin with. For us, it's just another day in the battlefield, and the merger simply means the two hard hitting lieutenants batting their eyes at each other decided to compromise and cooperate, yet already directed the same order for their soldiers, and some form of conventional tactics will not change. Nothing more.
 
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I am just saying it like it is... You guys will get pushed more into primary care. Attack the messenger if that makes you feel good. You guys were also attacking @MeatTornado when he was saying DO will get the short end of the stick. Well, he is probably saying now: 'I told you so.' I am very pro DO and I think the merger is/was a mistake. How do you guys expect to compete with MD students when they have more resources for the most part, and they are not burden by OMM and another bogus board?

Nothing will change for osteopathic students going into programs that were ACGME to begin with, as they were competing with MD students and their extra resources to begin with, and very little will change for people who are going into osteopathic programs that aren't that competitive. These two groups make up like 85% of my class. So for the people in my class who would get the short end of the stick, you have the couple people that matched osteopathic ER, of the small group people that matched osteopathic surgery, of the small group of people that matched osteopathic ob gyn, the small group traditional rotating internships, and 2 of the 3 ortho surgery matches. All in all 15-20 people who would have some level of increased difficulty. Ortho is the only thing competitive enough that we can fairly guess will be nearly off the table for osteopathic grads. Surgery, ob gyn, and ER are competitive enough fields that they will attract some MD interest, but it's not going to be terribly strong applicants who are pursuing spots in former AOA residencies. Absolute disaster scenario for us in the post merger world would have been that 15-25 people out of a class of 160 don't match in their desired field compared to before the merger, but it's really not going to be like that, it's going to be maybe half that, because these programs are not going to automatically pick the MD over DO applicant any more than current community based ACGME programs do. Stop catastrophizing.

OMM for me included a 3 hour lab a week, few hours of lectures on the rare weeks I decided to show up instead of watching on double speed and 7-8 hours of studying the night before the two exams we had per semester. This averaged out to 5-6 hours per week of extra material. If someone had a girlfriend that they spent 5-6 hours a week with would you tell them that it made them terribly burdened, and that their educational opportunities are going to seriously suffer compared to a single person?

Here's how you study for USMLE and comlex- you take the usmle 4-5 days before the comlex. You study like you're just going to take the usmle, then take it. When you're done, you study omm for 3 days straight. That's it. The bigger tragedy is that you have to spend more money, it's not a big drag on your education.

I respect that you're trying to take a stand on an unpopular opinion that you perceive as fact, but I really think you're imagining it to be a lot worse than it is.
 
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It also doesn't explicitly say you have to take both (I mean obviously MDs aren't taking the COMLEX). It sounds more like a one or the other thing, but you'd probably have to contact the program to be sure.

It almost sounds like they had a cutoff before the merger of a 525 COMLEX, and now that they are going to be taking MD apps they went, "well our COMLEX cutoff is about 50th percentile so let's make the USMLE one about that."

Are audition rotations really closing? I mean, all we have is this one interview to base that on. I was under the impression that even in the ACGME world there were audition-type rotations (based on posts in the resident forum).


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I really don't think so. Even in the MD world of competitive specialties away rotations (essentially auditions) are decently common from what my MD student friends tell me. The caveat is if you are an impressive applicant then you don't really need them.
 
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Nothing will change for osteopathic students going into programs that were ACGME to begin with, as they were competing with MD students and their extra resources to begin with, and very little will change for people who are going into osteopathic programs that aren't that competitive. These two groups make up like 85% of my class. So for the people in my class who would get the short end of the stick, you have the couple people that matched osteopathic ER, of the small group people that matched osteopathic surgery, of the small group of people that matched osteopathic ob gyn, the small group traditional rotating internships, and 2 of the 3 ortho surgery matches. All in all 15-20 people who would have some level of increased difficulty. Ortho is the only thing competitive enough that we can fairly guess will be nearly off the table for osteopathic grads. Surgery, ob gyn, and ER are competitive enough fields that they will attract some MD interest, but it's not going to be terribly strong applicants who are pursuing spots in former AOA residencies. Absolute disaster scenario for us in the post merger world would have been that 15-25 people out of a class of 160 don't match in their desired field compared to before the merger, but it's really not going to be like that, it's going to be maybe half that, because these programs are not going to automatically pick the MD over DO applicant any more than current community based ACGME programs do. Stop catastrophizing.

^^This

In most fields DO's have been matching into ACGME programs regularly. Nothing will change for these individuals, they will continue to match into these programs the same way they always have. The only area that will change is the highly competitive surgical subs but even that change won't be as bad as people are saying. Formerly AOA programs will continue to take DO's, and even if some don't, most will. Even if most don't, some will. Formerly AOA programs will not just drop DO's entirely. But, one must consider that these super competitive specialty matches are a very small fraction of the student population at DO schools. So no, DO's will not be pigeonholed into primary care, because they haven't been and the 15-25 people not matching into highly competitive specialties won't change that (even though they will still match into those programs). Low-tier MD schools don't even have matches that some DO schools do.

It's interesting that not many people mention that DO students have matched highly competitive ACGME surgical subs before, from ENT to neurosurg to plastics. Is this a regular occurrence? Nope. But, these individuals matched because they applied. Many highly competitive DO applicants do not even bother with the ACGME match, but now they will. And there are going to be many PD's that are going to be surprised at the competitive nature of these applicants and there will be some great surgical sub matches into ACGME programs by rockstar DO's.
 
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I am just saying it like it is... You guys will get pushed more into primary care. Attack the messenger if that makes you feel good. You guys were also attacking MeatTornado when he was saying DO will get the short end of the stick. Well, he is probably saying now: 'I told you so.' I am very pro DO and I think the merger is/was a mistake. How do you guys expect to compete with MD students when they have more resources for the most part, and they are not burden by OMM and another bogus board?

:rolleyes: Can you tell me the winning lottery number for the next draw?

You honestly have zero clue how this will play out, neither did MT despite his prissy need to have everyone think he did. Dude was a total troll and certain folks here were so self loathing that they just lapped his BS right up.

There are a finite number of ACGME programs in each specialty, lets pretend we're looking at Ortho. Maybe there are 500 Ortho ACGME training positions right now, and 60 AOA (have no idea what the actual numbers are since you couldn't pay me enough to do surgery-anything).

In 2017 the pressure on the ACGME Ortho spots will be relieved some when all applicants will be allowed to apply to the formerly AOA programs too. While the competition for the formerly AOA spots increases.

Additionally: this year, NSUCOM's Ortho program interviewed MD's for the first time, and still filled completely with DO grads. That's real data, much more tangible and solid than any "speculator" can give you.

The way I see it, after 2017 the ACGME will be the accrediting body for DO's residency training too. ACGME programs will then be the "official" GME for both MD's and DO's (instead of DO's being almost like guests in the ACGME system). I think many programs will take that concept seriously and begin treating DO applicants more equitably. That's my speculation though, time will tell.

I do think anyone taking the "chicken-little" approach to the merger (as a DO) is mistaken; they will be pleasantly surprised when they find not much has changed.
 
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^^This

In most fields DO's have been matching into ACGME programs regularly. Nothing will change for these individuals, they will continue to match into these programs the same way they always have. The only area that will change is the highly competitive surgical subs but even that change won't be as bad as people are saying. Formerly AOA programs will continue to take DO's, and even if some don't, most will. Even if most don't, some will. Formerly AOA programs will not just drop DO's entirely. But, one must consider that these super competitive specialty matches are a very small fraction of the student population at DO schools. So no, DO's will not be pigeonholed into primary care, because they haven't been and the 15-25 people not matching into highly competitive specialties won't change that (even though they will still match into those programs). Low-tier MD schools don't even have matches that some DO schools do.

All MD schools have matches far beyond any DO school. Understand that there are many programs that will more-or-less automatically invite US MDs who meet some grades + scores threshold that won't consider DOs under any circumstance. To reiterate, at any US MD school in any given year there will be matches that if they were to occur at a DO school would be celebrated on this very board as evidence of the "glass ceiling" being broken.
 
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All MD schools have matches far beyond any DO school. Understand that there are many programs that will more-or-less automatically invite US MDs who meet some grades + scores threshold that won't consider DOs under any circumstance. To reiterate, at any US MD school in any given year there will be matches that if they were to occur at a DO school would be celebrated on this very board as evidence of the "glass ceiling" being broken.

You're right, I misspoke. What I was trying to say is that not all MD schools boast neurosurg, ENT, derm, optho matches every single year. There are a few MD schools that do not get those matches on a regular basis. Also, when looking at the amount of grads from MD schools going into primary-care specialties (for sake of argument I mean FM, IM, Peds) it's nearly the same as the percent of grads from DO schools going into those specialties. I think many on SDN forget that many people self-select into primary care on both the MD and DO sides.
 
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Additionally: this year, NSUCOM's Ortho program interviewed MD's for the first time, and still filled completely with DO grads. That's real data, much more tangible and solid than any "speculator" can give you.

I might have missed this point, but did they explain how they were still able to fill it up only with DO's. I find it hard to believe that none of the MD's were impressive enough to get hired or stacked themselves well enough against their DO counterparts even if the program had always been DO friendly. I'm sure there had to have been some MD applicants who were good enough to pursue ortho.
 
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I might have missed this point, but did they explain how they were still able to fill it up only with DO's. I find it hard to believe that none of the MD's were impressive enough to get hired or stacked themselves well enough against their DO counterparts even if the program had always been DO friendly. I'm sure there had to have been some MD applicants who were good enough to pursue ortho.

My guess: Many DOs know that it takes higher stats than their MD counterparts to overcome the stigma and they act accordingly.

The MD that had higher stats probably either didn't rank this DO program or matched higher than it. The MDs that had to rank this DO program high enough to match probably had such poor stats vs top DO applicants that DO kids are ranked above them.

Make no mistake, having an MD is a huge bonus in the match game.
 
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The MD that had higher stats probably either didn't rank this DO program or matched higher than it. The MDs that had to rank this DO program high enough to match probably had such poor stats vs top DO applicants that DO kids are ranked above them.

This makes much more sense than a residency under a DO school with a DO PD took all DO's because they always have taken DO's since they were an AOA program and aren't obsessed with filling with MD's just because they have different letters behind their name.
 
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This makes much more sense than a residency under a DO school with a DO PD took all DO's because they always have taken DO's since they were an AOA program and aren't obsessed with filling with MD's just because they have different letters behind their name.
This forum is a loony bin sometimes. "Why wouldn't you automatically displace as many DO applicants as possible in favor of MDs when you're a DO program director who's been educating DO residents for 20+ years???"
 
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This forum is a loony bin sometimes. "Why wouldn't you automatically displace as many DO applicants as possible in favor of MDs when you're a DO program director who's been educating DO residents for 20+ years???"

Exactly. MD PD's are allowed to have preference for MD applicants but DO PD's are not allowed to prefer DO's. Doesn't add up.
 
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This forum is a loony bin sometimes. "Why wouldn't you automatically displace as many DO applicants as possible in favor of MDs when you're a DO program director who's been educating DO residents for 20+ years???"

Exactly. MD PD's are allowed to have preference for MD applicants but DO PD's are not allowed to prefer DO's. Doesn't add up.

Not only that, all the matchees are from the host school. These are people who have been around the program and have built connections. But no, the logical answer must be that there weren't any qualified MDs who could overtake these DO candidates. People seriously underestimate the power of connections, especially in medicine where connections can take you just about anywhere.
 
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Not only that, all the matchees are from the host school. These are people who have been around the program and have built connections. But no, the logical answer must be that there weren't any qualified MDs who could overtake these DO candidates. People seriously underestimate the power of connections, especially in medicine where connections can take you just about anywhere.

Well, it makes sense to go with an individual that you are acquainted with, have seen in the OR, and have a dialogue with, especially in a field like ortho where there is a good amount of teamwork in the operations. Also, this residency program is not harvard, it's not trying to rewrite the literature of the field and invent some crazy new experimental treatments (although research is probably still wanted/required), their goal is the train competent surgeons, going with someone you know to be competent is the way you do that, DO or MD.
 
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Not only that, all the matchees are from the host school. These are people who have been around the program and have built connections. But no, the logical answer must be that there weren't any qualified MDs who could overtake these DO candidates. People seriously underestimate the power of connections, especially in medicine where connections can take you just about anywhere.

And people on here have said feeder schools don't exist in the DO world...
 
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And people on here have said feeder schools don't exist in the DO world...

Its impossible for them not to exist. Talk to almost any PD, and they'll tell you that they prefer the person they know and have worked with with (and obviously like) over the one with slightly higher stats that they don't know from Adam. That's how medicine is and pretty much how its always been. Sure, there will be programs seeking prestige above all, but most programs want someone who will make it through, be a good team player, and won't make their lives a living hell for the nest 3-7 yrs.

The only way DO schools will lose this edge with formerly AOA programs (or even some ACGME ones they currently rotate with) is if they stop promoting their own GME expansion or lose all their rotation sites at residency programs. Its one of the (many) reasons I strongly support the continuance of OPTIs and the requirement for DOs to rotate through residency programs on resident teams during cores.
 
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You're right, I misspoke. What I was trying to say is that not all MD schools boast neurosurg, ENT, derm, optho matches every single year. There are a few MD schools that do not get those matches on a regular basis. Also, when looking at the amount of grads from MD schools going into primary-care specialties (for sake of argument I mean FM, IM, Peds) it's nearly the same as the percent of grads from DO schools going into those specialties. I think many on SDN forget that many people self-select into primary care on both the MD and DO sides.

Even if an MD school doesn't match people into derm or neurosurg (although I think any MD school will match people into at least a few of those specialties you listed) they will have matches to programs in other fields that are as/more competitive. Looking at the percentage matching into Peds and IM is misleading because many of those people, especially at the top programs, are looking to subspecialize or go into academics; the guy at an MD school who matches to MGH for IM or the girl who matches to CHOP for Peds are not equivalent to the average DO student who matches at some community hospital in Florida in the same specialty. Even in FM the outcomes can be quite different.

When a Harvard grad chooses to do IM or FM, it is almost always self-selection; less so at a low-tier MD school, and much less so at a DO school. Whether the situation for DOs gets better or worse remains to be seen, but if even a low double-digit percentage of formerly DO spots are taken by MDs I would consider it a loss as I see no evidence that DOs will make up that ground in ACGME programs.
 
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When a Harvard grad chooses to do IM or FM, it is almost always self-selection; less so at a low-tier MD school, and much less so at a DO school.

I'd make the counter argument that a lot (not all) of DO students self-selected into DO in the first place. Yes, there are prospective opthos and orthos and dermies, but I think the vast majority of DO students realize that they're more likely to end up in a primary care specialty and are okay with that from the beginning (otherwise they would have only applied MD).
 
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I'd make the counter argument that a lot (not all) of DO students self-selected into DO in the first place. Yes, there are prospective opthos and orthos and dermies, but I think the vast majority of DO students realize that they're more likely to end up in a primary care specialty and are okay with that from the beginning (otherwise they would have only applied MD).

I don't know if a majority or even a significant minority of student SELF select into DO.
 
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I don't know if a majority or even a significant minority of student SELF select into DO.

I know quite a few incoming students in my class alone who self selected DO (myself included). I think the notion that going DO dooms you to inferior training and whatnot is a bit overblown. Sure there are those who, if they'd gone the MD route, would've matched ortho/derm/ENT with a sub 240 step score and regret it down the road, but in general those who forgo MD for DO are happy with their decision. Not everything is as clear cut as the SDN consensus that MD>DO. Before you say you've made a bad career decision think of all the other variables that go into a persons medical training/career. If let's say the MD program you were accepted in was in a tiny town and you would go nuts there then choosing a DO program in a large city makes more sense. Sorry for the essay but wanted to share my opinion that goes against the grain commonly found on this forum!
 
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I know quite a few incoming students in my class alone who self selected DO (myself included). I think the notion that going DO dooms you to inferior training and whatnot is a bit overblown. Sure there are those who, if they'd gone the MD route, would've matched ortho/derm/ENT with a sub 240 step score and regret it down the road, but in general those who forgo MD for DO are happy with their decision. Not everything is as clear cut as the SDN consensus that MD>DO. Before you say you've made a bad career decision think of all the other variables that go into a persons medical training/career. If let's say the MD program you were accepted in was in a tiny town and you would go nuts there then choosing a DO program in a large city makes more sense. Sorry for the essay but wanted to share my opinion that goes against the grain commonly found on this forum!

We can discuss again this once you are through with residency and fellowship application season. Best of luck to you.

I mean, if you enjoy primary care and if your family / desired location isn't on the coasts or Colorado you should be just fine.
 
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