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AnatomyGrey12
Not doubting you but I'd love to see your source on this.
As soon as can find it I'll post it. It was talked about a few minutes this ago in a step/MCAT thread.
Not doubting you but I'd love to see your source on this.
Not doubting you but I'd love to see your source on this. I'm curious at what timepoint they're measuring clinical ability. I'm guessing as a third year student or even as an intern with a shiny new degree it might correlate, because at that point book knowledge is the main thing you have going for you. Ten, twenty, thirty years into attending-hood, I don't think your ability to answer multiple choice questions about pathophysiological zebras has much to do with your ability to care for patients.
That's your own fault. As a PD I'd fault you for making a stupid career decision.This is perhaps most important for DOs because some of us (like myself) picked a DO acceptance over a MD acceptance. Hence don't fit into the category of MD reject.
Believe me, if you are a DO, removal of step score will absolutely hurt you more than help you.
That's your own fault. As a PD I'd fault you for making a stupid career decision.
This is perhaps most important for DOs because some of us (like myself) picked a DO acceptance over a MD acceptance. Hence don't fit into the category of MD reject.
I am NOT advocating removing it as a part in residency selection. I definitely agree that it is a way for students from lower ranked schools to throw their hat into the ring, and is a way for me to help overcome the DO bias a little by performing well. I am however, an advocate of recognizing that it doesn't correlate to actual clinical skill, and realizing that just because someone has a 270 that doesn't mean they will be better clinically than someone with a 235. Or a 235 will be better than a 220. A test score is not the end all be all, it's one reason I've always actually liked the DO method of rotating at programs to match there. You get to actually show what matters.
It should be part of residency selection no doubt, but I think sometimes it is given too much credit.
That's actually really ok with me. You sound like you'd be literally the worst person to work with.
And as always your contributions continue to prove invaluable.
I have interacted with the poster before about their choice. If I remember correctly is was basically because of OMM. Seems like a poor cost benefit analysis to me.So instead of asking why they made that decision, you decided that they were stupid. I'm going to go on a limb and say you're not aiming for a field with significant human interaction are you?
I have interacted with the poster before about their choice. If I remember correctly is was basically because of OMM. Seems like a poor cost benefit analysis to me.
The people i know that got an uncharacteristically low comlex score had huge life events near the test, like a death in the familySpeaking of OMM, if I ever see a candidate with good step and poor COMLEX, I'll just assume he did poorly on the OMM portion and vice versa.
This is perhaps most important for DOs because some of us (like myself) picked a DO acceptance over a MD acceptance. Hence don't fit into the category of MD reject.
So simplistic.
Exactly. Voluntarily choosing DO over MD is ill advised, period. There may be an exceptional case or two out there, but they are veeeeeery few and far between.
Appreciate the input. Best of luck.
Incoming M1. But a 3rd gen DO. All 4 of my siblings are DOs and no one in my family is in PC. All my siblings did ACGME training in either surg sub specialities or something "as competitive." So although I'm not a 4th year, I'd like to think I know at least a LITTLE bit about what I'm getting into.
Lol thank you. When we all hang out, I think we regress to age 8. Not too much intellectual convos going on. But honestly that is maybe one of the reasons I feel the way I do. I'm lucky to have the experience and guidance I do. I realize that most DO students do not. And most schools don't do an adequate job of providing it.
So you want to go to an ACGME residency but don't want to go to an MD school? Honestly, I don't get it. I feel like you're not really a true DO if you do an ACGME residency. You become a doctor during residency, not during medical school.Incoming M1. But a 3rd gen DO. All 4 of my siblings are DOs and no one in my family is in PC. All my siblings did ACGME training in either surg sub specialities or something "as competitive." So although I'm not a 4th year, I'd like to think I know at least a LITTLE bit about what I'm getting into.
So you want to go to an ACGME residency but don't want to go to an MD school? Honestly, I don't get it. I feel like you're not really a true DO if you do an ACGME residency. You become a doctor during residency, not during medical school.
Lol thank you. When we all hang out, I think we regress to age 8. Not too much intellectual convos going on. But honestly that is maybe one of the reasons I feel the way I do. I'm lucky to have the experience and guidance I do. I realize that most DO students do not. And most schools don't do an adequate job of providing it.
Unfortunately no lol my dad retired this year
You sound like the type of doc that will go through at least 3 marriages.There is no good reason to do this. Even if you had a major life event or family concerns, you can delay a year to get these issues worked out. If you wanted to be in a certain area geographically, that's also dumb because there is a good chance you will have to relocate for residency anyway. If money was the issue, the MD school puts you in a better spot to get into a high earning specialty so that's a wash.
There are two types of DO students, those that couldn't get into an MD school and those that could but have seriously flawed decision making skills.
^That's why the USMLE is a positive for DO students. They can prove that they might have attended a DO school but have learned enough medicine to be equal or better than the majority of MDs applying for the same spot. Take away the USMLE, and PDs will assume all DOs are second tier to their MD counterparts for the reason I mentioned above.
You sound like the type of doc that will go through at least 3 marriages.
Not quite, according to the AACOMAS matriculant profile the average GPA of the class of 2020 (those who matriculated in 2016) was 3.54, which is pretty low for most MD schools even at the low tier (HBCUs not included).
http://www.aacom.org/docs/default-s...riculant-profile-summary-report.pdf?sfvrsn=10
That doesn't make sense at all when you consider the vast majority of matriculants at DO schools are already White and Asian.
Anyway, we don't have to speculate because the data's right there. The average White matriculant to a DO school had an MCAT of about 502, while Asians were 503 - neither of which are "MD stats".
I'm a 3.6 with 33 MCAT and no red flags besides an UG that's not well-known outside of its region. **** happens man.
UCLA and Loyola had an average of 505 last cycle.
Not that far off at all. Especially given that a bunch of DO schools (namely the Touros) have class average of 508.
Trust me, a UCLA med student with 505 and a Touro student with 505 will be world's apart in their CV.
Plus, UCLA's low average is probably due to accepting some people with low MCAT which drag down the average.
UCLA and Loyola had an average of 505 last cycle.
Not that far off at all. Especially given that a bunch of DO schools (namely the Touros) have class average of 508.
I think the surgical subspecialties will tank hard for many DO students unless they seek out opportunities and connections to programs and or obtain comparable applications ( DOs with 240s and multiple publications). Or maybe it won't.
I wonder truly how many DOs there are with stats that actually parallel the average orthopedic applicant.
That sucks to hear if the merger is supposed to allow us DOs to be on an even footing ground with MDs.
In the case of UCLA, their average gets decreased by the fact that they have a pipeline programme specifically geared towards URMs who want to serve in underprivileged communities and they often take applicants with lower stats. The MCAT average of UCLAs main programme is definitely not 505.
Can't comment on Loyola since I know little about them.
Nope, over in pre-allo this was discussed heavily and someone ran a statistical analysis on the numbers and the pipeline program cannot account for the matriculant median reported. And it was also suspect that the PRIME program was even included in that number.
No school makes you repeat an entire year for just failing one class. Your friends are not telling you the entire story.
People really have too much time on their hands...
Despite the many MD applicants with "STRATOSPHERIC" scores that applied to Broward's ortho program this year, they still filled completely with DO students. All were from NSU-COM.
http://osteopathic.nova.edu/do/images/2017_residency_ placements.pdf
Despite the many MD applicants with "STRATOSPHERIC" scores that applied to Broward's ortho program this year, they still filled completely with DO students. All were from NSU-COM.
http://osteopathic.nova.edu/do/images/2017_residency_ placements.pdf
I agree with you that it doesn't mean on an individual basis that someone can't be competitive. Everyone will have to earn their spots, I'm not even considering DO bias here since I'm talking about MD students taking competitive former-AOA spots.
The issue is a DO student can't simply snap their fingers and make opportunities arise out of thin air. MD students have an infinitely greater number of resources. They have mentors for every specialty, they have every imaginable research topic available, they have curricula without OMM to clog up time, etc etc etc. The fact of the matter is the resources are hard to come by, even if you compare the best DO schools to "low tier" MD schools, that disparity exists.
My god are we gonna bicker about the degree of "vastly?" 95% of DO students are there because they couldn't get into MD schools. As a population, there's a pretty clear margin. And if "most DOs" falling within 1 SD, means 20% above, 60% below, and the other 20% further below then 1 SD, then haven't you supported my claim?
This is kinda shortsighted, and I'm surprised that a residency trained physician puts this much stock in a simple number.
Yes, boards are important but making them the be all and end all is a sure fire way to end up with a batch of residents that are book smart and hospital dumb.
Yet it is the thing we have as DO students the most control over. DO school in general give these rotations that under prepare students for residency. Of course, students can catch up during 4th year, but then its too late...
There is no good reason to do this. Even if you had a major life event or family concerns, you can delay a year to get these issues worked out. If you wanted to be in a certain area geographically, that's also dumb because there is a good chance you will have to relocate for residency anyway. If money was the issue, the MD school puts you in a better spot to get into a high earning specialty so that's a wash.
There are two types of DO students, those that couldn't get into an MD school and those that could but have seriously flawed decision making skills.
^That's why the USMLE is a positive for DO students. They can prove that they might have attended a DO school but have learned enough medicine to be equal or better than the majority of MDs applying for the same spot. Take away the USMLE, and PDs will assume all DOs are second tier to their MD counterparts for the reason I mentioned above.
So you want to go to an ACGME residency but don't want to go to an MD school? Honestly, I don't get it. I feel like you're not really a true DO if you do an ACGME residency. You become a doctor during residency, not during medical school.
enlighten us to what a true DO is brother. Must I attend an AOA program and perform OMM on at least every 3rd patient before I can proudly wear the D.O. title on my chest?
I don't know. Do you not see my point though?enlighten us to what a true DO is brother. Must I attend an AOA program and perform OMM on at least every 3rd patient before I can proudly wear the D.O. title on my chest?
Despite the many MD applicants with "STRATOSPHERIC" scores that applied to Broward's ortho program this year, they still filled completely with DO students. All were from NSU-COM.
http://osteopathic.nova.edu/do/images/2017_residency_ placements.pdf
I had rotations with students from UCLA. I was very much having to hide my jealousy after hearing their stories of classroom education as well as the quality of didactics during 3rd year. There was no comparison. UCLA better prepared their students for both step 1 and step 2 over my DO school. Hands down.
Did you even have to say that?I had rotations with students from UCLA. I was very much having to hide my jealousy after hearing their stories of classroom education as well as the quality of didactics during 3rd year. There was no comparison. UCLA better prepared their students for both step 1 and step 2 over my DO school. Hands down.
You cannot be serious! You don't think better 3rd/4th year translates to better intern.What do you think this translates to in the real world? Do you think the average UCLA grad is significantly better than the average grad from your school as an intern?
Because I'll bet there's no appreciable difference in the eyes of the PD once everyone's there and starts working.
What do you think this translates to in the real world? Do you think the average UCLA grad is significantly better than the average grad from your school as an intern?
Because I'll bet there's no appreciable difference in the eyes of the PD once everyone's there and starts working.
What do you think this translates to in the real world? Do you think the average UCLA grad is significantly better than the average grad from your school as an intern?
Because I'll bet there's no appreciable difference in the eyes of the PD once everyone's there and starts working.