PhD/PsyD PsyD. To NP, Pros & Cons, Time?

[ConcernedDad]

My Twin Daughters are graduating with PsyD.,
in May 2018.
They plan to work as school psychologists.
What additional education and time to also get Psych NP?
What are Pros & Cons of pursuing Psych NP after PsyD.?

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[WisNeuro]

Is their PsyD in school psych? Should be a decent amount of time and money to get the psych NP, so I guess it depends on how long they want to be in debt? Which also factors in to what they already have from the PsyD.

 

[erg923]

My Twin Daughters are graduating with PsyD.,
in May 2018.
They plan to work as school psychologists.
What additional education and time to also get Psych NP?
What are Pros & Cons of pursuing Psych NP after PsyD.?

More debt and delayed years earning due to being in school full time (3+years if they dont have a BSN?), obviously.

I can think of no "pros" of being a psych NP. They are generally under educated under prepared for the complexity of practicing quality psychiatry. Not to mention that their jobs sounds terrible and boring.

 

[psych.meout]

More debt and delayed years earning due to being in school full time (3+years if they dont have a BSN?), obviously.

I can think of no "pros" of being a psych NP. They are generally under educated under prepared for the complexity of practicing quality psychiatry. Not to mention that their jobs sounds terrible and boring.

Who would want all the stress, productivity demands, and liability of being a psychiatrist, but without the remuneration and quality of training?

 

[medium rare]

There are several pros to becoming a PMHNP after training as a psychologist. You have the advantage of the broad, comprehensive education/training provided by a doctoral level clinical psychology curriculum as a baseline then build on that with the psych NP training. Yes, there are demonstrable shortcomings to NP training as a stand alone foundation but adding that to the training of a clinical psychologist places the person in a very unique and highly marketable position.

I get calls on a weekly basis from head hunters asking me to consider their latest offer and I could call any mental health center or hospital in the area and have a well-paying job within the day if I needed to.

I am able to run a thriving and very busy self-pay private practice with no end in sight for new referrals. I dictate how I allocate my practice activities and spend most of my time doing combined psychotherapy and medication management. I do very little testing these days but could easily do more should I choose to do so.

PMHNPs are considerably more marketable than psychologists, generally speaking. PMHNPs here start around 140k annually with generous yearly increases. I know several PMHNPs making >175k in employed settings plus benefits. Psychologists in my area often scramble for work or are in relatively low-salary positions or focus on private practice. Having the combined benefit of both types of training provides clear advantages over either type of training alone.

It will take at least three years if one does not already have a BSN but it could easily take four or more years depending on the situation and the program. It is a big consideration and sacrifice (time, effort and money) but, for me, it has been well worth it and I would recommend this path for someone seriously considering it.

 

[ConcernedDad]

Is their PsyD in school psych? Should be a decent amount of time and money to get the psych NP, so I guess it depends on how long they want to be in debt? Which also factors in to what they already have from the PsyD.

My daughters are going the PsyD. In School Psychology.
Would you recommand that they further their education?

 

[WisNeuro]

I mean, it depends on career satisfaction and direction really. A school psychologist, a psych np, and a psychologist are completely different careers, with only a little overlap between them. Depends on what they want to do on a daily basis. Debt already accrued, and debt that will be accrued with further education should also play a role in any such decision.

 

[erg923]

My daughters are going the PsyD. In School Psychology.
Would you recommand that they further their education?

A psych NP is a totally different career/job.

 

[ConcernedDad]

There are several pros to becoming a PMHNP after training as a psychologist. You have the advantage of the broad, comprehensive education/training provided by a doctoral level clinical psychology curriculum as a baseline then build on that with the psych NP training. Yes, there are demonstrable shortcomings to NP training as a stand alone foundation but adding that to the training of a clinical psychologist places the person in a very unique and highly marketable position.

I get calls on a weekly basis from head hunters asking me to consider their latest offer and I could call any mental health center or hospital in the area and have a well-paying job within the day if I needed to.

I am able to run a thriving and very busy self-pay private practice with no end in sight for new referrals. I dictate how I allocate my practice activities and spend most of my time doing combined psychotherapy and medication management. I do very little testing these days but could easily do more should I choose to do so.

PMHNPs are considerably more marketable than psychologists, generally speaking. PMHNPs here start around 140k annually with generous yearly increases. I know several PMHNPs making >175k in employed settings plus benefits. Psychologists in my area often scramble for work or are in relatively low-salary positions or focus on private practice. Having the combined benefit of both types of training provides clear advantages over either type of training alone.

It will take at least three years if one does not already have a BSN but it could easily take four or more years depending on the situation and the program. It is a big consideration and sacrifice (time, effort and money) but, for me, it has been well worth it and I would recommend this path for someone seriously considering it.

Thank you for your response.

 

[ConcernedDad]

Can anyone recommend a program in the NYC area that could provide the PMHNP program (as I mentioned my daughters have no RN training) in the shortest amount of time?

 

[WisNeuro]

Probably get better recommendations in the nursing forums. Perhaps also get some recommendations for a good debt counselor on the way?

 

[ConcernedDad]

Is their PsyD in school psych? Should be a decent amount of time and money to get the psych NP, so I guess it depends on how long they want to be in debt? Which also factors in to what they already have from the PsyD.

Thank you for your response.
What differentiates a Neuropsychologist from a Psychologist?

 

[WisNeuro]

Our early training is the same, but I specialize in my later training and a 2 year postdoc in things such as neuroanatomy, neuropathology, and cognitive evaluation. Opens up billing for neuropsychological assessment. And, according to salary surveys, we do better, on average, pay wise.

 

[ConcernedDad]

Our early training is the same, but I specialize in my later training and a 2 year postdoc in things such as neuroanatomy, neuropathology, and cognitive evaluation. Opens up billing for neuropsychological assessment. And, according to salary surveys, we do better, on average, pay wise.

Thank you, I will investigate your area of specialization for them.
The 2 year post- doctoral training sounds like a great area they could explore.

 

[ConcernedDad]

Can you recommend such programs in the NYC area?

 

[WisNeuro]

Thank you, I will investigate your area of specialization for them.
The 2 year post- doctoral training sounds like a great area they could explore.

It's not quite that easy, they can't do the postdoc with their current degrees. We'd be looking at essentially 4-5 years of grad school (or a respecialization program, not as recommended), 1 year clinical internship, and a 2 year postdoc.

 

[singasongofjoy]

My Twin Daughters are graduating with PsyD.,
in May 2018.
They plan to work as school psychologists.
What additional education and time to also get Psych NP?
What are Pros & Cons of pursuing Psych NP after PsyD.?

If they're already getting doctoral degrees to practice as school psychologists, why do they want to get additional education- after they've just finished so much of it? I don't see that there is utility in continuing on for a whole other degree, unless they want to change careers. But they've barely started their careers, so why do that? Are they already unhappy with the idea of being a school psychologist, having not even really started as one yet?

 

[psych.meout]

If they're already getting doctoral degrees to practice as school psychologists, why do they want to get additional education- after they've just finished so much of it? I don't see that there is utility in continuing on for a whole other degree, unless they want to change careers. But they've barely started their careers, so why do that? Are they already unhappy with the idea of being a school psychologist, having not even really started as one yet?

That was my thought as well. These are substantially different roles, responsibilities, and scopes of practice between school psych, clinical psych, neuropsych, and PMHNP.

Why would they spend all that time in grad school for school psych if they didn't want to practice in it?

 

[PsyDr]

What differentiates a Neuropsychologist from a Psychologist?

Great wit.


I'm here all night folks!

 

[smalltownpsych]

If they're already getting doctoral degrees to practice as school psychologists, why do they want to get additional education- after they've just finished so much of it? I don't see that there is utility in continuing on for a whole other degree, unless they want to change careers. But they've barely started their careers, so why do that? Are they already unhappy with the idea of being a school psychologist, having not even really started as one yet?

Probably because they aren't able to be licensed as clinical psychologists and are competing with MA level school folks and looking to get paid peanuts.

 

[erg923]

Thank you for your response.
What differentiates a Neuropsychologist from a Psychologist?

Maybe your grown daughters would be invested enough in their own lives to do their own vocational research?

 

[psych.meout]

Probably because they aren't able to be licensed as clinical psychologists and are competing with MA level school folks and looking to get paid peanuts.

Maybe your grown daughters would be invested enough in their own lives to do their own vocational research?

I feel like these are related posts......

 

[psych.meout]

There are several pros to becoming a PMHNP after training as a psychologist. You have the advantage of the broad, comprehensive education/training provided by a doctoral level clinical psychology curriculum as a baseline then build on that with the psych NP training. Yes, there are demonstrable shortcomings to NP training as a stand alone foundation but adding that to the training of a clinical psychologist places the person in a very unique and highly marketable position.

I get calls on a weekly basis from head hunters asking me to consider their latest offer and I could call any mental health center or hospital in the area and have a well-paying job within the day if I needed to.

I am able to run a thriving and very busy self-pay private practice with no end in sight for new referrals. I dictate how I allocate my practice activities and spend most of my time doing combined psychotherapy and medication management. I do very little testing these days but could easily do more should I choose to do so.

PMHNPs are considerably more marketable than psychologists, generally speaking. PMHNPs here start around 140k annually with generous yearly increases. I know several PMHNPs making >175k in employed settings plus benefits. Psychologists in my area often scramble for work or are in relatively low-salary positions or focus on private practice. Having the combined benefit of both types of training provides clear advantages over either type of training alone.

It will take at least three years if one does not already have a BSN but it could easily take four or more years depending on the situation and the program. It is a big consideration and sacrifice (time, effort and money) but, for me, it has been well worth it and I would recommend this path for someone seriously considering it.

Where is it that you work?

I'm not all that familiar with PMHNPs, but everywhere I look online does not have pay levels near what you are quoting.

Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner (NP) Salary
Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner Programs (PMHNP) | Jobs and Salary Information | Education
https://www.nursepractitionerschools.com/faq/how-much-does-a-psychiatric-np-make

The mean is typically ~$100,000/year nationally, with the 90th percentile for earners being less than $130,000/year. Even with bonuses, the $140,000/year figure you quoted for starting pay is still at approximately the 90th percentile for earners nationally. As for those PMHNPs you know earning over $175,000/year, that's still substantially more than the 90th percentile for those late in their careers. I'm not saying these figures are impossible, but rather, they are anecdotal and substantial outliers at the top of the pay scale and are likely regionally variable. Thus, I don't think they are appropriate to use for advising potential PMHNP students.

 

[ConcernedDad]

It's not quite that easy, they can't do the postdoc with their current degrees. We'd be looking at essentially 4-5 years of grad school (or a respecialization program, not as recommended), 1 year clinical internship, and a 2 year postdoc.

Thanks again for all your valuable feedback and information.
All the Best!

Just to clarify my daughters are finishing a 5 year post doctoral program in School Psychology which is a specialization. Their program includes the MS degree and also gives them the same training as a Clinical Psychologist. They will pass the licensing exam down the road. As their Dad I am thinking about how they can enhance their careers as well as future income potential. I am researching their options.
I appreciate your insight and feedback.

 

[ConcernedDad]

I meant to say a 5 year Doctoral program which includes the MS in Psychology.

 

[WisNeuro]

Thanks again for all your valuable feedback and information.
All the Best!

Just to clarify my daughters are finishing a 5 year post doctoral program in School Psychology which is a specialization. Their program includes the MS degree and also gives them the same training as a Clinical Psychologist. They will pass the licensing exam down the road. As their Dad I am thinking about how they can enhance their careers as well as future income potential. I am researching their options.
I appreciate your insight and feedback.

The school psychology training is not the same as clinical psychology. I am assuming that you mean they are in a 5 year graduate program. A postdoc comes after you have already received your doctorate. I applaud the looking out for their careers, but I think there is a lot of misconception about what they can and cannot do with the school psychology degree. School and clinical psychology training is vastly different. They also have different licensing tests. They will not have the same career options as clinical psychologists and will not have access to the same internship and postdocs as clinical psychologists. This thread is a good place to start.


*DOCTORAL APPLICANTS READ FIRST* Helpful Threads

 

[AnnoyedByFreud]

Where is it that you work?

I'm not all that familiar with PMHNPs, but everywhere I look online does not have pay levels near what you are quoting.

Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner (NP) Salary
Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner Programs (PMHNP) | Jobs and Salary Information | Education
https://www.nursepractitionerschools.com/faq/how-much-does-a-psychiatric-np-make

The mean is typically ~$100,000/year nationally, with the 90th percentile for earners being less than $130,000/year. Even with bonuses, the $140,000/year figure you quoted for starting pay is still at approximately the 90th percentile for earners nationally. As for those PMHNPs you know earning over $175,000/year, that's still substantially more than the 90th percentile for those late in their careers. I'm not saying these figures are impossible, but rather, they are anecdotal and substantial outliers at the top of the pay scale and are likely regionally variable. Thus, I don't think they are appropriate to use for advising potential PMHNP students.

Those average salaries seem very low to me. All new psych NPs start out >100k unless they're in an area that pays terribly. With a few years/experience you're looking at 130-180k depending on the area.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

While there are a handful of programs that train in both School and Clinical....they are few in number.

Here is a good comparison of different types of training programs: Types of Programs - Psychology Graduate School

 

[jadedphysiotherapist]

Keep some dignity and stay as a psychologist.

Missed the boat for psychiatry.

 

[jadedphysiotherapist]

I've said this before and will say it again. A good psychiatrist needs residency training to distinguish organic from non-organic and to watch the effects of psychotropics.

NPs and PAs get the DSMV in a week and start checking boxes. Yes they make bank for education but given that healthcare works on stats and best means and percentages, they're dosing out like mad to patients that don't need it.

At least psychologists are actually trained well.