Post-Doctoral Research

[CorporateFatCat]

Hey guys!

First off, it's been a long time since I've posted on SDN--it's nice to see some familiar names still out there!

Anyway, I'm having a bit of a new career life crisis. Here's a small amount of background: Graduated vet school in 2016 from UC Davis, went directly into a private rotating internship program (surgery, IM, ER overnights, general receiving). I initially thought I wanted to do a residency in Dentistry and Oral Surgery, but both the match and my heart of hearts are diverting me away from this goal.

My new interest is going into research, specifically in the domain of genetics. I have minimal research experience, mostly in undergrad and the only manuscript that I will be (hopefully) published as co-author is in the realm of diagnostic imaging for dentistry.

My question, if anyone has any insight, is how to get into research as a post-doc. Essentially, how do you find out if this is your game and get your foot in the door?

Any feedback or follow-up convo is appreciated!

- CFC

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[WhtsThFrequency]

My question, if anyone has any insight, is how to get into research as a post-doc. Essentially, how do you find out if this is your game and get your foot in the door?

Any feedback or follow-up convo is appreciated!

- CFC

Do you mean in a formal postdoctoral position? Or simply "post-doc" as in "after-DVM"?

If you mean the former, all I can say is it will be a near-impossible road without a PhD and especially in a field as specialized as molec-heavy as genetics. The DVM is a clinical degree and in absolutely no way prepares you to do research. Postdoc positions want PhDs - they don't give a crap about DVMs (and rightly so - such positions are meant for people with formal graduate degrees and heavy research experience who can run projects independently).

If you want to get into serious genetics research, you're going to need a PhD. Then a postdoc. Look into schools offering T32-funded PhD programs for vets. They are termed "postdoc" programs simply because the people in it are vets, but it is actually PhD program that pays you at a postdoc level (around $45,000/yr for 3 years - however the remaining years will be dependent on your PI's funds).

But heck, even before that - you need research experience to 1) be competitive for those and 2) to know that this is something you want to do. This might mean taking time off to work in a lab.

 

[JosephKnechtDVM]

To CFC, I just really want to know out of curiousity how you got the idea and from whom that your DVM degree could get you into advanced research? I am curious as to what students are being today today in veterinary school about their opportunities and chances for non clinical fields where the DVM is not a definite requirement in stone or regulation in order to do that job?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

To CFC, I just really want to know out of curiousity how you got the idea and from whom that your DVM degree could get you into advanced research? I am curious as to what students are being today today in veterinary school about their opportunities and chances for non clinical fields where the DVM is not a definite requirement in stone or regulation in order to do that job?

I can answer that somewhat.

I was told all through vet school in the late 2000s that there is a big need for veterinarians in research, which is partly why I went into a specialty that lends itself well to research. A lot of my colleagues were told the same. However, what wasn't explained or admitted was that while there is a *need* for research vets, there is not a *demand* - if that makes sense. At least, no demand if the only degree and experience under your belt is that DVM.

Of course, as vets we have specialized knowledge of animal systems and therefore can theoretically contribute quite a bit to animal models of disease....however, with simply a DVM degree said contribution to high-level science is minimal (outside of clinical research here and there). Research labs don't care about your clinical degree - they will hire a PhD over you every time and rightly so.

Now, I can't speak to government and public health jobs....but you want to make it into cutting-edge biomedical research as a vet, ninety-nine times out of a hundred you're going to need an additional research degree to be even remotely competitive unless you somehow have a lot of connections - this was definitely not made clear.

 

[Shepherd Lover]

To CFC, I just really want to know out of curiousity how you got the idea and from whom that your DVM degree could get you into advanced research? I am curious as to what students are being today today in veterinary school about their opportunities and chances for non clinical fields where the DVM is not a definite requirement in stone or regulation in order to do that job?

I'm a second year at Purdue currently and while it has been presented that we could do research in the future it has not been heavily stressed. Those that talk about doing research have informed us that we would need additional training in a PhD program. Many professors have stated that public health jobs are more in-demand currently. No one has commented much on any demand for research veterinarians.


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[WhtsThFrequency]

I'm a second year at Purdue currently and while it has been presented that we could do research in the future it has not been heavily stressed. Those that talk about doing research have informed us that we would need additional training in a PhD program. Many professors have stated that public health jobs are more in-demand currently. No one has commented much on any demand for research veterinarians.


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Glad to hear there is some more blunt honesty now. Probably because everyone who went to school back when I did got pissed enough to call schools out on their horse hockey when we found ourselves in degree after degree post DVM.

 

[08pfyx]

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[Lab Vet]

Research labs don't care about your clinical degree - they will hire a PhD over you every time and rightly so.

This. Every time. Make no mistake about it, the DVM is a clinical degree. It in no way prepares one to be a research scientist.

 

[CorporateFatCat]

Ah, thanks for the responses guys. I'm sorry if I incorrectly used the terminology, but I had the idea that a postdoctoral scholar includes someone who has completed their DVM (or PhD or MD or DDS or whathaveyou). Thank you WTF for your insightful response, and I agree with your sentiments. I guess I feel like it's a bit of a catch 22 though. How then would your recommend getting more lab experience (prior to committing to something as big as a PhD) as a DVM without downgrading yourself to a lab tech washing beakers? And the answer "there isn't a way" is fine, I'm looking for honest feedback.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I will honestly say I don't 100% know to either @08pfyx or @CorporateFatCat - I've been in the bubble of academia so long I'm afraid I'm not nearly the best person to give advice on those particular fronts....I haven't had the experience of being in clinical practice and trying to go back. My inkling is though, at least for CFC, you'd need to go back and get some sort of research degree. I can't see any other way to break through unless you have some serious "ins" that will overlook it. Have you considered all the permutations of a research career? E.g. if you become a PI, you'll likely spend most of your time writing grants, writing papers, and getting funding - is that what you like to do?

Yeah, the term "post-doc" colloquially means anyone who has a doctorate already (PhD, DVM, MD, etc). But in the research world, a post-doc position most generally means a position for someone who specifically already has a PhD. They are intended to be stepping stone positions between graduate student and full investigator for people pursuing full-time research careers (and therefore the people recruited for them already have research publications, degrees, and can function autonomously in a lab).

 

[cheathac]

I have a question in regards to research. I'm meeting with an anatomic pathologist after spring break. She has a graduate student opening in her lab.
Productivity in this research environment will require:

1. development and optimization of mouse models of brain metastases
2. in vivo imaging
3. development and optimization of molecular imaging to characterize functional alterations to the blood-brain barrier.

The goal of this project is to increase uptake of chemotherapeutic compounds by molecular manipulation of various components of the blood-brain barrier in brain metastatic disease. Seems very interesting and I want to go into pathology or lab animal medicine. However, my plan was to do the PhD during residency. If I do this project at a MS level, does that allow me to potentially do the PhD quicker? I'm also going to ask if this position is indeed funded and if it would cover some of my DVM tuition costs. Just looking for advice!

 

[lilylilac]

I have a question in regards to research. I'm meeting with an anatomic pathologist after spring break. She has a graduate student opening in her lab.
Productivity in this research environment will require:

1. development and optimization of mouse models of brain metastases
2. in vivo imaging
3. development and optimization of molecular imaging to characterize functional alterations to the blood-brain barrier.

The goal of this project is to increase uptake of chemotherapeutic compounds by molecular manipulation of various components of the blood-brain barrier in brain metastatic disease. Seems very interesting and I want to go into pathology or lab animal medicine. However, my plan was to do the PhD during residency. If I do this project at a MS level, does that allow me to potentially do the PhD quicker? I'm also going to ask if this position is indeed funded and if it would cover some of my DVM tuition costs. Just looking for advice!

Are you trying to get an MS and do this research while in school? Most labs I know require full time in the lab to be remotely productive, which isn't possible during the school year. Or are you planning on working there during summer and breaks only?

Also, in order for your plan to work, if I'm understanding correctly, you pretty much HAVE to do your residency at this school to get the PhD too. That is putting yourself in such a small pinpoint. This project would definitely look good for residency applications though!

A combined residency/PhD program is 5-6 years compared to a DVM/PhD at 7-8 years, so you would be saving yourself some time just doing the PhD in residency too.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Are you trying to get an MS and do this research while in school? Most labs I know require full time in the lab to be remotely productive, which isn't possible during the school year. Or are you planning on working there during summer and breaks only?

Also, in order for your plan to work, if I'm understanding correctly, you pretty much HAVE to do your residency at this school to get the PhD too. That is putting yourself in such a small pinpoint. This project would definitely look good for residency applications though!

A combined residency/PhD program is 5-6 years compared to a DVM/PhD at 7-8 years, so you would be saving yourself some time just doing the PhD in residency too.

To be fair, I would edge much closer to 6-7 than 5-6 based on what my colleagues have done, but yes - this is still less than the average DVM/PhD program. Plus IMO residency/PhD programs are far better integrated than DVM/PhD.

@cheathac that sounds like a really interesting project. I would use it simply as research experience and perhaps go for an NIH T35 summer research experience there as well - usually students apply for these through their school. https://www.vet.purdue.edu/veterinary-scholars/

Like lily said, I think doing a MS during vet school would be pretty much impossible, especially if you're talking benchtop science. Or are you in a combined program? I highly doubt she would take you on as a graduate student because you simply won't have the time - grad school is 50-60+ hours a week and you physically cannot do that on top of vet school.

However it sounds like a wonderful opportunity with solid research and I would definitely consider it a good networking route (especially for LoRs if you plan to apply to residencies).

 

[cheathac]

Thanks guys! Purdue has the DVM/MS and DVM/PhD combined programs so it's not full time it's more a couple years DVM then research work, etc. I hope she allows me to do some summer research and maybe during the school year. So even a DVM/MS wouldn't be of much help for residencies either would it? Better to just do it for summer work?


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[lilylilac]

Thanks guys! Purdue has the DVM/MS and DVM/PhD combined programs so it's not full time it's more a couple years DVM then research work, etc. I hope she allows me to do some summer research and maybe during the school year. So even a DVM/MS wouldn't be of much help for residencies either would it? Better to just do it for summer work?


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In my opinion, getting the experience and networking would be just as beneficial and wouldn't cause you to put off starting a residency program. You can learn a lot in a lab even during the summer and a little during the school year! Also, I'm sure Purdue has a formalized summer research program that you could go through too, like WTF mentioned.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

In my opinion, getting the experience and networking would be just as beneficial and wouldn't cause you to put off starting a residency program. You can learn a lot in a lab even during the summer and a little during the school year! Also, I'm sure Purdue has a formalized summer research program that you could go through too, like WTF mentioned.

Yep. My summer research mentor wrote one my my LoRs for residency. Also if your PI is a pathologist, you could potentially get some guidance on going to ACVP one year and presenting a poster there. We usually have a gaggle of vet students that come with us to do that and it looks great on the resume.