Podiatrist vs Podiatric Surgeon & Salary Differences...

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Nippyfan

TUSPM Class of 2021
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So, I think I have figured out why there is such a huge gap in terms of info available online with regards to salary for podiatrists.

If you google podiatrist salary in whatever state you're interested in you will see a very conservative estimate in the 100 thousands. Now, if you enter the words podiatric surgeon, you see very different numbers. On one site I saw an AVERAGE of over 380K.

Are there any residents who are applying for jobs currently or attending physicians who can speak on this? All residency programs are now surgical, so how does that work? Do you just look for jobs depending on whether you intend to actually do surgical cases or not? And I suppose compensation differs depending on whether you found a job doing strictly routine care as opposed to a position in a hospital setting, for example, where surgical cases would be available more frequently?

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That 380K average is most likely MD/DO orthopedic surgeons who specialize in foot/ankle
 
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Okay, that makes sense! Im sure thats it...

The numbers are just so all over this place for this profession so I was just trying to make some sense of it.
 
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Everyone does surgery. I believe average start is about 120k.
 
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Obviously not every podiatrist does surgery. Some work in private offices just seeing patients. I have shafowed a podiatrist who stopped doing surgery at all and he works at a foot and ankle clinic just seeing patients and such. He says that he does not make less than when he was doing surgeries. He says he is more satisfied now not doing surheries and keeping same salary numbers. This is in MN. He has been a podiatrist for 16 years. Great and happy podiatrist working 7:30am to 5pm. No weekends, no on calls, no nights.

Ok. 99% of podiatrists do surgery. Strictly clinical podiatrists are rare. Hence the 3 year surgical residency. I'm glad that guy is happy, sounds awful to me. But that is just my take. To each their own.
 
@Nippyfan From the podiatry perspective, there are certainly different benchmarks as it relates to general podiatry versus surgical podiatry. It is also true that the data on general podiatry is much less robust than the data on surgical podiatry. In any event, the $380,000 would be very high for the specialty whether surgical or not and likely is something in the world of orthopedics. I would say that we've been seeing interesting changes in the podiatry data and the average numbers have risen quite a bit. With that being said, typically between the surgical and nonsurgical you can see a spread of anywhere between $25,000 and $75,000 per year difference between general and surgical.
 
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99% of podiatrists perform surgery? Can you please cite your source? I assure you it's no where near that number. And you'd be very surprised how few cases many of the podiatric "surgeons" perform. I've served as chief at a hospital with about 38 podiatrists on staff. 7 of the DPMs on staff accounted for 95% of the casss. Do the math.
 
99% of podiatrists perform surgery? Can you please cite your source? I assure you it's no where near that number. And you'd be very surprised how few cases many of the podiatric "surgeons" perform. I've served as chief at a hospital with about 38 podiatrists on staff. 7 of the DPMs on staff accounted for 95% of the casss. Do the math.

Okay, a majority perform surgery. Are you more comfortable with that wording? I don't have a source for that so, you might not like that answer either.
 
Okay, a majority perform surgery. Are you more comfortable with that wording? I don't have a source for that so, you might not like that answer either.

Chill out. It doesn't matter what I "like", but making a blanket statement that 99% of DPMs perform surgery is simply inaccurate.

There's also a misconception regarding those who are trained in surgery and those who actually perform surgery on a regular basis. Not everyone who has surgical training is competent to perform surgery, and they often learn that soon after starting practice. Having a patient who is 100% under your care, from start to finish is much different than performing cases as a resident. It doesn't take too many poor results in private practice, to make some people a little gun shy.

In my experience over many years of practice, is that realistically the vast majority of DPMs are spending most of their time in the office and not the OR.

And I believe that number will be even greater as health care changes are implemented. Any of you who are already in practice understand that many elective procedures now require pre authorization. With the exception of trauma or infection, the majority of foot and ankle surgery is elective. There will continue to be more scrutiny and more and more procedures will need pre authorization. Insurance companies will start (and many have already) requiring more non surgical care be attempted prior to approving elective cases.

I foresee the surgical volume of the average private practice DPM to actually decrease over the next few years due to cutting back on elective surgery. This is also happening with spine surgeries, arthroscopic procedures, physical therapy allowances, etc.

The insurance carriers are tighenting their belts and the end result will mean less elective surgery for all professions. It just so happens that a lot of what we bring to the OR is elective.
 
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Chill out. It doesn't matter what I "like", but making a blanket statement that 99% of DPMs perform surgery is simply inaccurate.

There's also a misconception regarding those who are trained in surgery and those who actually perform surgery on a regular basis. Not everyone who has surgical training is competent to perform surgery, and they often learn that soon after starting practice. Having a patient who is 100% under your care, from start to finish is much different than performing cases as a resident. It doesn't take too many poor results in private practice, to make some people a little gun shy.

In my experience over many years of practice, is that realistically the vast majority of DPMs are spending most of their time in the office and not the OR.

And I believe that number will be even greater as health care changes are implemented. Any of you who are already in practice understand that many elective procedures now require pre authorization. With the exception of trauma or infection, the majority of foot and ankle surgery is elective. There will continue to be more scrutiny and more and more procedures will need pre authorization. Insurance companies will start (and many have already) requiring more non surgical care be attempted prior to approving elective cases.

I foresee the surgical volume of the average private practice DPM to actually decrease over the next few years due to cutting back on elective surgery. This is also happening with spine surgeries, arthroscopic procedures, physical therapy allowances, etc.

The insurance carriers are tighenting their belts and the end result will mean less elective surgery for all professions. It just so happens that a lot of what we bring to the OR is elective.

I understand all of that. But saying 99% of podiatrists operate isn't a negatively connotated blanket statement. Older pods don't operate as much. I get it. But every single resident graduating today, 100% can choose to operate, which is something people interested in podiatry need to know. It's each practitioners decision.
 
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There are so many private office DPM in any metro area and little town. Just google it. They do not do big surgeries. Of course they can do little surgeries or operations in their office.

Little surgery=surgery
 
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Ok. 99% of podiatrists do surgery. Strictly clinical podiatrists are rare. Hence the 3 year surgical residency. I'm glad that guy is happy, sounds awful to me. But that is just my take. To each their own.

If you include nail avulsions, then yes 99% of the podiatrists do surgery.
 
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What percentage of podiatrists would you say do bunion and hammertoe surgery?

It definitely varies on location and obviously patient demographic. I know a lot more podiatrists doing mainly wound care.
 
It definitely varies on location and obviously patient demographic. I know a lot more podiatrists doing mainly wound care.

I agree it varies. I know more podiatrists doing bunions and hammer toes. I guess it's impossible to really determine what % of DPMs actually do surgery, I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, the whole point of my original post was for pre pods/pod students to not worry about being able to operate since a large majority of DPMs operate.
 
I agree it varies. I know more podiatrists doing bunions and hammer toes. I guess it's impossible to really determine what % of DPMs actually do surgery, I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, the whole point of my original post was for pre pods/pod students to not worry about being able to operate since a large majority of DPMs operate.


A large majority of DPMs perform surgery, but that unfortunately doesn't mean they do it well. One of the problems is that just as not all dentists are oral surgeons, I personally believe not all pods should be surgeons.

Having surgical training and being a talented surgeon are not synonymous. Surgery entails more than knowing how to do it, and requires knowing WHEN to do it and having the talent to do it well.
 
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A large majority of DPMs perform surgery, but that unfortunately doesn't mean they do it well. One of the problems is that just as not all dentists are oral surgeons, I personally believe not all pods should be surgeons.

Having surgical training and being a talented surgeon are not synonymous. Surgery entails more than knowing how to do it, and requires knowing WHEN to do it and having the talent to do it well.

That part of your post answers the biggest question of all!

If a pod decides not to handle surgical cases because they're not confident in their skills, does that mean they'll be doing just routine care and consults?
 
That part of your post answers the biggest question of all!

If a pod decides not to handle surgical cases because they're not confident in their skills, does that mean they'll be doing just routine care and consults?

There's a lot that DPMs do in the middle of routine care and surgery or consults. Patients have sports injuries, sprains, strains, fractures, infections, aches and pains, etc, etc. Realistically, even those who perform a lot of surgery also have to fill their schedule with non surgical patients. Obviously there are a lot of ailments outside of routine care and most docs make the majority of their income on non surgical patients, which does not always mean routine care.
 
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FYI: data from 2015 (page 4)

https://jfr.uams.edu/help/MGMADataDive_Total_Compensation_Private_Practice_Report-2015.pdf

Specialty Provider, Count Group, Count Mean, Std Dev 10th %tile, 25th %tile, Median, 75th %tile, 90th %tile

Podiatry: General 211 106 $244,791 $104,785 $131,632 $177,091 $224,994 $284,682 $405,309

Podiatry: Surgery-Foot and Ankle 168 64 $292,553 $120,057 $157,985 $210,352 $269,527 $356,278 $453,758

interesting.
After how many years of experience to reach that median typically?
 
interesting.
After how many years of experience to reach that median typically?

ah i wish i knew lol, probably 5-10 years (any idea @bobtheweazel?) . Hopefully, one of the seniors here can project, but I would think it differs for everyone.
The actual report cost over 1K :wow:
 
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FYI: data from 2015 (page 4)

https://jfr.uams.edu/help/MGMADataDive_Total_Compensation_Private_Practice_Report-2015.pdf

Specialty Provider, Count Group, Count Mean, Std Dev 10th %tile, 25th %tile, Median, 75th %tile, 90th %tile

Podiatry: General 211 106 $244,791 $104,785 $131,632 $177,091 $224,994 $284,682 $405,309

Podiatry: Surgery-Foot and Ankle 168 64 $292,553 $120,057 $157,985 $210,352 $269,527 $356,278 $453,758

Some have said that post-baccs will be the winner this upcoming cycle and thereafter (with AACOMAS doing way with grade replacement), but I honestly don't think so...the main deterrent of this field for pre-meds is the perceived lack of compensation. Once people begin to come across these numbers, it won't take long before a 3.5 and 500+ MCAT becomes the new minimum requirement.
 
Well this is very true. Many still downplay podiatry and its role in the healthcare system. Many don't know about the mandated 3 year surgical residency or the autonomy pods have, especially within a hospital system. Many don't even know that they are seeing a DPM in a hospital when they are being evaluated, they just assume they are another MD surgeon.

As a matter of fact, quite a few of my pre-med friends have this pre-conceived idea in their heads of what podiatrists do, and it is incredibly outdated. They have no clue how much the field has transformed even within the last 10 years. They didn't even know podiatrists could perform surgery (besides removal of ingrown toenails) or prescribe medications! They didn't know DPM's often times manage their own patients...they thought an MD/DO had to oversee their cases, much like they would have too for an NP or PA. I think this is a huge problem. The field is evolving and definitely moving in the right direction, but the only people who seem to know about these changes are the people within the field itself.

I think slowly the quality of applicants are improving anyway, but the APMA/ACFAS definitely needs to come together and figure out a way to broadcast this field to pre-meds, because this notion that podiatrists only trim toenails, is no longer true for today's providers.

Money is a motivator but it's the idea that podiatrists aren't real doctors is what perpetuates why the profession doesn't attract top students.

The wrong people talk about podiatry (MD/DO) and they don't even know what we CAN do.

Podiatry the profession is not well understood with the general public and pre-med advisors/committees because APMA/ACFAS does a poor job advertising podiatry to undergraduates...FACT


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Money is a motivator but it's the idea that podiatrists aren't real doctors is what perpetuates why the profession doesn't attract top students.

The wrong people talk about podiatry (MD/DO) and they don't even know what we CAN do.

Podiatry the profession is not well understood with the general public and pre-med advisors/committees because APMA/ACFAS does a poor job advertising podiatry to undergraduates...FACT


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There are countless threads on the other forums where the real physicians are the MDs/DOs. Although, for the DOs, things are still changing/improving. I would like those people to compare the curriculum and the residency training before making assumptions. Outside the MD/DO, it's the DPMs that have those two things similar. No other profession has a 4-year schooling with a 3-year required residency.

But, there will always be that person who believes that only an MD is a real "doctor". No matter what anyone tells them, they will not agree and that's too bad. So the only thing left is to leave them alone, let them retire, and let the new generation take over and hopefully things will change.
 
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Podiatry is currently in a transition phase. They are essentially where DOs were back in the 60s, attempting to gain full practice rights and parity. Although this time, pods are working to be filling liscenced physcicians of the foot and ankle. I could see pods being able to administer their own patients into hospital systems in all states within the next 10 years. I can see complete parity of the foot and ankle sometime within my lifetime, but not sure about before I retire, we will have to see.

The people who are getting into pod schools are not like they were before, especially at places like AZPOD and DMU. These places had close to DO stats and the students there are big time advocates for parity.
 
I think podiatry makes progress then sometimes it sets itself back. The two pods I closely shadowed both acknowledged and pointed something out that I see here sometimes too.

Podiatry must accept it's limitations too. Y'all don't remember the school they tried to open and grant an MD/DPM title?

"Real" doctor or not, that isn't something we can necessarily change; especially among a non-medical & pre-medical audience. You see, even with the many specialties in MD, most people don't make it passed pediatrician & ob/gyn before they have no clue what the "--cian", "--ologist" does. Medicine for the gen public starts with going to go see your primary care then it continues with getting referred to a specialist.

I bring it back by saying spreading the word can help but let's not forget that we are limited to just the foot and ankle. So if you get it out there that you indeed are a "real" doctor (in the sense that the general public sees it -- primary care physician) how will you combat issues like not being able to give a flu shot? Perform and sign off of a basic physical / check up?

Dentists are doctors and PhD holders are doctors too. But a PhD will probably say "scientist" and a dentist will say dentist.

I agree get the word out but get the right word out!
 
Money is a motivator but it's the idea that podiatrists aren't real doctors is what perpetuates why the profession doesn't attract top students.

The wrong people talk about podiatry (MD/DO) and they don't even know what we CAN do.

Podiatry the profession is not well understood with the general public and pre-med advisors/committees because APMA/ACFAS does a poor job advertising podiatry to undergraduates...FACT


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Well DO/MD gives you options to branch out. There are no options in podiatry and you have to be certain you'll forever work with feet. I changed my mind about careers so many times during college. I can only imagine how it'll be for medical specialty

Podiatry is right for the right person.

If optometry can have people acknowledging they are eye doctors, pod should be able to do the same with feet
 
"Real" doctor or not, that isn't something we can necessarily change; especially among a non-medical & pre-medical audience.

This false perception that podiatrists aren't real doctors is something that CAN be changed through education of the profession. Just because it isn't going to happen overnight doesn't mean that it can't happen. Pre-meds, in general, should be a major audience for educational outreach.

I bring it back by saying spreading the word can help but let's not forget that we are limited to just the foot and ankle. So if you get it out there that you indeed are a "real" doctor (in the sense that the general public sees it -- primary care physician) how will you combat issues like not being able to give a flu shot? Perform and sign off of a basic physical / check up?

The profession is not necessarily advocating the profound desire to give flu shots or being able to perform an H&P (which is vital & we do learn to perform in school, and as far as I am aware can be performed depending on the state laws/hospital rules in the way that you mean it). Otherwise, it's as simple as directing a patient to a speciality or physician that is more apt to deal with the issue at hand, which happens with every other speciality in medicine as it is. Regardless, the profession isn't trying to tip toe around things that we can not do. It is trying to address the things that we can do and the knowledge that we have come to possess, which has been wrongly assumed/oppressed otherwise despite the progression of the field within the past 40ish odd years.

I agree get the word out but get the right word out!

The verb's the word.

Well DO/MD gives you options to branch out. There are no options in podiatry and you have to be certain you'll forever work with feet. I changed my mind about careers so many times during college. I can only imagine how it'll be for medical specialty.

There's a pretty fair warning prior to pursuing the career.
 
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How about you get through podiatry school, hospital rotations, and residency training before you drop insight on us in the podiatric residents and physicians forum.

Fair enough; my apologies
 
Fair enough; my apologies

Don't worry about ankle breaker. He is basically the grumpy grandpa of the podiatry forums; kind of abrasive, tart, but no doubt right about most things.
 
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Well, just as long as the promotion of podiatry doesn't include the rapid expansion of schools (like what DOs are doing) then podiatry advertisement seems like a swell idea. I don't think the profession could stand the proliferation of more schools, especially considering there are still students in 2017, 5 years after the "residency crisis" not matching into residencies.

Money is a motivator but it's the idea that podiatrists aren't real doctors is what perpetuates why the profession doesn't attract top students.

The wrong people talk about podiatry (MD/DO) and they don't even know what we CAN do.

Podiatry the profession is not well understood with the general public and pre-med advisors/committees because APMA/ACFAS does a poor job advertising podiatry to undergraduates...FACT


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
Podiatry is currently in a transition phase. They are essentially where DOs were back in the 60s, attempting to gain full practice rights and parity. Although this time, pods are working to be filling liscenced physcicians of the foot and ankle. I could see pods being able to administer their own patients into hospital systems in all states within the next 10 years. I can see complete parity of the foot and ankle sometime within my lifetime, but not sure about before I retire, we will have to see.

The people who are getting into pod schools are not like they were before, especially at places like AZPOD and DMU. These places had close to DO stats and the students there are big time advocates for parity.

Just to let you guys know, this "transition phase" has been going on at least the last 23 years since I started podiatry school back in 1994. The sentiment and discussions seem nearly identical now as they did then. Back when I started school we talked about how the current crop of podiatry students/residents were the most highly trained in the history of our profession (probably holds true with every passing year), and we talked about how our training and abilities were relatively unknown. The concept of parity has been going on forever. It makes me wonder if things will ever change.

Don't worry about ankle breaker. He is basically the grumpy grandpa of the podiatry forums; kind of abrasive, tart, but no doubt right about most things.

Too funny. What does that make me, the drunk uncle?
 
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Don't worry about ankle breaker. He is basically the grumpy grandpa of the podiatry forums; kind of abrasive, tart, but no doubt right about most things.

Nailed it on the head. Haha
 
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