Please, please, please don't go to NYU

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Which will bankrupt patients.

The correct fix is a refinance of loans, a change to bankruptcy laws, and a cap on federal funding.

Currently only the first exists
Are there any tax reductions for health science doctors who use a large percentage of their income to pay off school debt?

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Are there any tax reductions for health science doctors who use a large percentage of their income to pay off school debt?

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No.

Only 2.5k

The public also thinks you're rich because they only read gross income amounts and politicians have two brain cells and only care about keeping jobs so nothing has been done. The profits from the lending are astronomical.

This is why the system is going to crash if it doesn't change. Mass fraud. Patients trading meals for services since they can't afford rates.

Private lenders have now moved into the market for about 3% interest rates.

That's still what 15k interest for nyu grads? That's the way to go to survive. The current rates are unsustainable.

Those refi company CEOs found the correct niche.

That's the temporary solution. The final one is to mandate that accreditation bodies only accredit schools if the total debt is within certain standard Deviations of starting salary trends. Ive come to the realization that leadership is not doing this across the board which is insane since payments drive patient volume.
OR
Practicing professionals stop accepting interns from expensive schools...leading to unaccreditation and school closure. Students would probably need to appeal for discharge after that for their loans before starting a bartending job and starting life over
 
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No.

Only 2.5k

The public also thinks you're rich because they only read gross income amounts.

This is why the system is going to crash if it doesn't change.

Private lenders have now moved into the market for about 3% interest rates.

That's still what 15k interest for nyu grads? The current rates are unsustainable.

Those refi company CEOs are gonna be rich
Surely you're being facetious.. Just a couple posts back you suggested that dentists getting paid more wasn't the answer because it would bankrupt the patient.. So new bankruptcy laws for dentists and capped federal loans is the answer?

I agree that dentists don't make enough to justify taking out that much money(500k+). But since pretty much every new dental student is going to be taking out 240k+ in loans(unless they have someone paying for them) , it makes more sense to me that the job should pay more.
 
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Surely you're being facetious.. Just a couple posts back you suggested that dentists getting paid more wasn't the answer because it would bankrupt the patient.. So new bankruptcy laws for dentists and capped federal loans is the answer?

I agree that dentists don't make enough to justify taking out that much money(500k+). But since pretty much every new dental student is going to be taking out 240k+ in loans(unless they have someone paying for them) , it makes more sense to me that the job should pay more. The main reason it doesn't is because mature established dentists can afford to charge less for procedures, which deflates the market and hurts new graduates(i could be totally wrong on this point, definitely want to hear other opinions).

It seems to me that these extremely expensive dental educations will eventually(mostly out of necessity) push the salary up. Either that or corporations with money to offer new poor grads will take over dentistry and eliminate the traditional private practice.

Pursuing education into our 30's and devoting ourselves to a profession that will require lifelong learning and professionalism is great. I like that sacrifice of it. You're a doctor, that's what doctors do. But I think that's enough sacrifice. I think having to pay off loans for 6-10 years after I finally get out if school, whilst making a salary between 20 - 50k, is awful.

I wonder if this is what the pharmacy forums looked like years ago...

I hope people see the picture here


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There was a misinterpretation here. I'm glad to get intelligent conversation going on by the way.

Yes, you do compete with old dentists that charge a low market rate which forces you to compete by offering a rate of your own, but in the current scenario, grads can't actually afford to drop the market rate. Hey have to overcharge and make it a mill. That comes from patient pockets. If the old crowd retires and all you had were new grads with this astonishing debt load, then they would be the only ppl in the market, their rates to pay loans would cripple their patients.

If bankruptcy laws change and students can declare it on federal loans, then it would be a way out from the insurmountable debt. You can bet that this would trace back to the schools that charged so much to get publicity though, however, there would probably be licensure loss tied in if there had to be some form of collateral. Lawyers wouldn't just let people declare as it would be gamed by people that actually had manageable debt.

A cap on lending would mean schools could only charge x amount. Currently, grad plus is a guaranteed gravytrain. Think about it.....when medicare started in the 60s physician salaries exploded. Orthos charged as much as possible for surgery....bc they could.

Same deal here....There's no cap. The school can charge whatever they want. It's not what the market can bare.....it's a gravytrain. The government touched it (education.....just like it touched medicare)
 
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Surely you're being facetious.. Just a couple posts back you suggested that dentists getting paid more wasn't the answer because it would bankrupt the patient.. So new bankruptcy laws for dentists and capped federal loans is the answer?

I agree that dentists don't make enough to justify taking out that much money(500k+). But since pretty much every new dental student is going to be taking out 240k+ in loans(unless they have someone paying for them) , it makes more sense to me that the job should pay more.

By the way, pharmacy was different.

Pharmacy never went this deep in loans. What pharmacy did was increase seats that outpaced demand with school expansion. That led to mandatory residency pgy1 and pgy2 to be employed as a hospital clinical pharmacist for market thin out. In ten years that will be my own field for lucrative jobs or anything with a new cpt code pay incentive.

Dental school Supply isn't that bad. Tuition is.
 
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Surely you're being facetious.. Just a couple posts back you suggested that dentists getting paid more wasn't the answer because it would bankrupt the patient.. So new bankruptcy laws for dentists and capped federal loans is the answer?

I agree that dentists don't make enough to justify taking out that much money(500k+). But since pretty much every new dental student is going to be taking out 240k+ in loans(unless they have someone paying for them) , it makes more sense to me that the job should pay more.

You can't control how much dentists are paid, you may be able to control how much you pay for school.
 
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You're aware that this nonsense is what's going to lead to bankruptcies among the public for care correct?
No it's not. The cost of care will actually go down due to the robust competition among local doctors.

Like my kid is going to get told that he has nine cavities so that the dentist can over bill to pay his student loans.
This type of behavior occurs among some dentists regardless of their student loan balance. This is based on character. If it's not student loans, it's mortgage, fancy car, standard of living, etc.
Fortunately, this type of behavior catches up with the clinician. It's illegal and unethical. The reputation of these types of clinicians get out there, and eventually licensing bodies become aware.

Students each year are NOT aware that the tuition is actively hiked and jacked from guaranteed federal funding. They are operating off of the last generations notions that this is actually going to be able to be ok.
You mean to tell me that students are unaware that their cost of attendance increases every year? They honestly don't know that while they attend school, the cost will continue along the pattern that it has been following for decades? And that's the SCHOOL'S fault?

If you don't think this should be criminal then idk what to tell you except that some students are going to literally snap.
These sort of Chicken Little statements are sensationalism at best. I do not disagree that the cost to attend some of these schools are really outrageous, but criminal?
Dental school is very expensive, almost everywhere. Unless you are In-State at a public university, it's expensive. For example, look at the OOS costs at University of Kentucky. Without counting health insurance, tuition and fees at NYU (which I'm using as a comparison since that's what the thread is based on) is only around ~$5K more per year. The difference between the schools is the local cost of living. USC, NYU, Tufts, etc. are in areas where the cost of living in the local economy is significantly higher. So is that the school's fault? When that student graduates and has a higher loan balance because they just spent the last 4 years in NYC, LA, or Boston - why should they blame the school? They knew how much their was rent costing them.

I'll give you an anology of a dishonest dentist who sees and drills cavities where there are no cavities. Yes, the patients who agree to treatment should know better (but how?) The government has not been able to recognize what that dentist is up to. But finally the dentist should be ashamed of himself for the product he is providing to the public, just as NYU should be ashamed of leading the way in outrageous educational costs. There should be consumer protections for students, as clearly not everyone is able to recognize that the schools are too expensive for them. Of course there is a fanatical belief among many in this country, which is also seen in your posts, that free markets work, even when they clearly aren't that free and don't work as in the case of dental school education.
The government will eventually realize what that dentist is up to. Insurance fraud and malpractice are a big deal, and it only takes one time for it all to catch up.
Again, it's not NYU leading the way; this is the cost of dental school. For in-state students at a public school, it is significantly cheaper. But where do you think that difference comes from? It comes from the tax-payers money. The state subsidizes those costs, hence the strict requirements for state residency. In fact, many times the residency requirements for tuition and admission are very different.
For those who are in insurmountable debt, there are always options. As you're well aware, there are income driven repayment plans, areas with higher reimbursements, state funded loan payment incentives, refinancing, forbearance, etc. Those dentists will not be hungry or unemployed. They just won't have the cushy 3-day work week with zero student and practice debt that last generation had; this public perception is what has been driving the costs of the education up. But the options exist, and it's up to the individual to make their decisions.
You may think that my views regarding free market are fanatical, and that's fine. I do not agree.
 
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No it's not. The cost of care will actually go down due to the robust competition among local doctors.


This type of behavior occurs among some dentists regardless of their student loan balance. This is based on character. If it's not student loans, it's mortgage, fancy car, standard of living, etc.
Fortunately, this type of behavior catches up with the clinician. It's illegal and unethical. The reputation of these types of clinicians get out there, and eventually licensing bodies become aware.


You mean to tell me that students are unaware that their cost of attendance increases every year? They honestly don't know that while they attend school, the cost will continue along the pattern that it has been following for decades? And that's the SCHOOL'S fault?


These sort of Chicken Little statements are sensationalism at best. I do not disagree that the cost to attend some of these schools are really outrageous, but criminal?
Dental school is very expensive, almost everywhere. Unless you are In-State at a public university, it's expensive. For example, look at the OOS costs at University of Kentucky. Without counting health insurance, tuition and fees at NYU (which I'm using as a comparison since that's what the thread is based on) is only around ~$5K more per year. The difference between the schools is the local cost of living. USC, NYU, Tufts, etc. are in areas where the cost of living in the local economy is significantly higher. So is that the school's fault? When that student graduates and has a higher loan balance because they just spent the last 4 years in NYC, LA, or Boston - why should they blame the school? They knew how much their was rent costing them.


The government will eventually realize what that dentist is up to. Insurance fraud and malpractice are a big deal, and it only takes one time for it all to catch up.
Again, it's not NYU leading the way; this is the cost of dental school. For in-state students at a public school, it is significantly cheaper. But where do you think that difference comes from? It comes from the tax-payers money. The state subsidizes those costs, hence the strict requirements for state residency. In fact, many times the residency requirements for tuition and admission are very different.
For those who are in insurmountable debt, there are always options. As you're well aware, there are income driven repayment plans, areas with higher reimbursements, state funded loan payment incentives, refinancing, forbearance, etc. Those dentists will not be hungry or unemployed. They just won't have the cushy 3-day work week with zero student and practice debt that last generation had; this public perception is what has been driving the costs of the education up. But the options exist, and it's up to the individual to make their decisions.
You may think that my views regarding free market are fanatical, and that's fine. I do not agree.
So what do you think needs to happen? Less dentists? Higher reimbursements? And how is it to be gone about? What is the way to be successful, in your opinion?


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@schmoob
Your faith in predental and dental students' financial literacy and "street smarts" is admirable but simply not in accordance with reality. I know firsthand that many dental students, including those who did very well in the academic aspects and are in the best schools, are completely clueless about the financial realities they'll face when they graduate. And schools do a terrible job at educating them (perhaps intentionally?). I'd venture to say that you yourself can't truly comprehend what it means to graduate with 500k in loans with a job making 120-150k. I know I certainly can't.

So your optimism is nice but undeserved.
 
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@schmoob
Your faith in predental and dental students' financial literacy and "street smarts" is admirable but simply not in accordance with reality. I know firsthand that many dental students, including those who did very well in the academic aspects and are in the best schools, are completely clueless about the financial realities they'll face when they graduate. And schools do a terrible job at educating them (perhaps intentionally?). I'd venture to say that you yourself can't truly comprehend what it means to graduate with 500k in loans with a job making 120-150k. I know I certainly can't.

So your optimism is nice but undeserved.
You're completely right. I would guess that very few pre-dents actually know what they are getting into.

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@schmoob
Your faith in predental and dental students' financial literacy and "street smarts" is admirable but simply not in accordance with reality. I know firsthand that many dental students, including those who did very well in the academic aspects and are in the best schools, are completely clueless about the financial realities they'll face when they graduate. And schools do a terrible job at educating them (perhaps intentionally?). I'd venture to say that you yourself can't truly comprehend what it means to graduate with 500k in loans with a job making 120-150k. I know I certainly can't.

So your optimism is nice but undeserved.
Maybe I misspoke. I don't overestimate predents and dental students' financial literacy at all. I also know many dental students with massive debt, and completely agree that many of them have no grasp on the reality they will face.
My point is that it's up to those students to understand what they are getting themselves into. What good would it do to make them understand their financial reality, after they've matriculated. Tuition and fees are not kept secret. No one is forcing this debt upon anyone. Once they sign that MPN which lays everything out in black and white, that's it. There is no more plausible deniability. These applicants are old enough to drive, vote, drink, serve in the military (as Officers, since they will hold degrees), and most importantly for this scenario - sign a Master Promissory Note that would allow them to take out such a sum of money.
 
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@schmoob
Your faith in predental and dental students' financial literacy and "street smarts" is admirable but simply not in accordance with reality. I know firsthand that many dental students, including those who did very well in the academic aspects and are in the best schools, are completely clueless about the financial realities they'll face when they graduate. And schools do a terrible job at educating them (perhaps intentionally?). I'd venture to say that you yourself can't truly comprehend what it means to graduate with 500k in loans with a job making 120-150k. I know I certainly can't.

So your optimism is nice but undeserved.
So don't make 120-150K. Make more. Work faster, work more days, become better and demand higher reimbursement or find another place. There are plenty of options
 
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No it's not. The cost of care will actually go down due to the robust competition among local doctors.


This type of behavior occurs among some dentists regardless of their student loan balance. This is based on character. If it's not student loans, it's mortgage, fancy car, standard of living, etc.
Fortunately, this type of behavior catches up with the clinician. It's illegal and unethical. The reputation of these types of clinicians get out there, and eventually licensing bodies become aware.


You mean to tell me that students are unaware that their cost of attendance increases every year? They honestly don't know that while they attend school, the cost will continue along the pattern that it has been following for decades? And that's the SCHOOL'S fault?


These sort of Chicken Little statements are sensationalism at best. I do not disagree that the cost to attend some of these schools are really outrageous, but criminal?
Dental school is very expensive, almost everywhere. Unless you are In-State at a public university, it's expensive. For example, look at the OOS costs at University of Kentucky. Without counting health insurance, tuition and fees at NYU (which I'm using as a comparison since that's what the thread is based on) is only around ~$5K more per year. The difference between the schools is the local cost of living. USC, NYU, Tufts, etc. are in areas where the cost of living in the local economy is significantly higher. So is that the school's fault? When that student graduates and has a higher loan balance because they just spent the last 4 years in NYC, LA, or Boston - why should they blame the school? They knew how much their was rent costing them.


The government will eventually realize what that dentist is up to. Insurance fraud and malpractice are a big deal, and it only takes one time for it all to catch up.
Again, it's not NYU leading the way; this is the cost of dental school. For in-state students at a public school, it is significantly cheaper. But where do you think that difference comes from? It comes from the tax-payers money. The state subsidizes those costs, hence the strict requirements for state residency. In fact, many times the residency requirements for tuition and admission are very different.
For those who are in insurmountable debt, there are always options. As you're well aware, there are income driven repayment plans, areas with higher reimbursements, state funded loan payment incentives, refinancing, forbearance, etc. Those dentists will not be hungry or unemployed. They just won't have the cushy 3-day work week with zero student and practice debt that last generation had; this public perception is what has been driving the costs of the education up. But the options exist, and it's up to the individual to make their decisions.
You may think that my views regarding free market are fanatical, and that's fine. I do not agree.
The income driven plans can't even cover the interest in some cases. I literally know some people. The balance keeps accruing and they can't declare bankruptcy. They're screwed if some of these programs like pslf get axed.

You are astounding in attempting to defend this. It's not cost of living driving up costs....it's GUARANTEED FEDERAL FUNDING NON DISCHARGEABLE TO BANKRUPTCY MORE THAN DOUBLE THE PRIVATE SECTOR INTEREST RATE ON MORTGAGES. It's a money grab. Inflation is a component but it's not the root cause

If there end up being too many dentists and they have to compete on prices then some will DEFAULT. They're going to charge as much as possible. Period.

Your type of attitude in trying to defend these programs is pathetic and no, students have NO IDEA that the price is artificially hiked up to make administrators an asinine amount of money while they're living on scholarship, maybe doing parttime work, and getting honors with fantastic grades and shadowing during undergrad.

Good luck trying to have a house and family with those numbers.
 
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Maybe I misspoke. I don't overestimate predents and dental students' financial literacy at all. I also know many dental students with massive debt, and completely agree that many of them have no grasp on the reality they will face.
My point is that it's up to those students to understand what they are getting themselves into. What good would it do to make them understand their financial reality, after they've matriculated. Tuition and fees are not kept secret. No one is forcing this debt upon anyone. Once they sign that MPN which lays everything out in black and white, that's it. There is no more plausible deniability. These applicants are old enough to drive, vote, drink, serve in the military (as Officers, since they will hold degrees), and most importantly for this scenario - sign a Master Promissory Note that would allow them to take out such a sum of money.

I just realized you may not have made this connection in your head....

Dental tuition is INCENTIVIZING illegal procedures and acts in order to make a living. I have actually heard stories of physicians who had just finished fellowship over ordering as many tests and procedures as possible even tho unnecessary so that they could pay their debt down since it was so bad.

The credentialing system in the US is crippling an honest free market.

Idk if you work for a school. If you do.....look at yourself in the mirror and realize how bad this actually is.

If not, then please understand that what I'm saying is on point. This is unsustainable and toxic for professions. That's not sensationalism
 
The income driven plans can't even cover the interest in some cases. I literally know some people. The balance keeps accruing and they can't declare bankruptcy. They're screwed and are going to die with their debt especially if pslf gets axed, a legitimate possibility, unless bankruptcy becomes legal. I'm assuming you're in a different generation so you can't actually see it affecting your peers.

You are astounding in attempting to defend this. It's not cost of living driving up costs....it's GUARANTEED FEDERAL FUNDING NON DISCHARGEABLE TO BANKRUPTCY MORE THAN DOUBLE THE PRIVATE SECTOR INTEREST RATE ON MORTGAGES. It's a money grab. Inflation is a component but it's not the root cause

If there end up being too many dentists and they have to compete on prices then some will DEFAULT. They're going to charge as much as possible. Period.

Your type of attitude in trying to defend these programs is pathetic and no, students have NO IDEA that the price is artificially hiked up to make administrators an asinine amount of money while they're living on scholarship, maybe doing parttime work, and getting honors with fantastic grades and shadowing during undergrad.

Good luck trying to have a house and family with those numbers.
Geez, you are as passionate as ISIS members. Relax a little and enjoy a freedom to make a choice.
Want free or cheap education - go to Russia, don't complain on a very low salary later though.
If people wouldn't be given unlimited loans, then only rich or old people would be able to study dentistry, which is unfair and much worse, in my opinion
I am glad there are expensive programs, because people with imperfect applications need a chance too. They will exchange hard work later for earlier laziness or simple misfortune
Afraid of over treatment- get a second opinion, self educate. Like not every poor person is robbing banks, not every dentist with debt will overtreat, after all we are educated in ethics and scared to loose our licenses.
In regards to having family with high loans. Marry someone with good education and earning potential and they will pay your living costs while all your increasing every year income will go towards paying off your loans.
Again, learn to appreciate the freedom of choice and don't get mad that some things are more expensive then you wish. Do you think that Ferrari or Birkin bag are overpriced and force us to overtreat?
 
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The balance keeps accruing and they can't declare bankruptcy.
unless bankruptcy becomes legal.
This is incorrect. It is not likely for healthcare providers due to the income and the repayment options. You would need to file Chapter 7 or Chapter 13 bankruptcy. Additionally, you would need to file for an adversary proceeding in a separate court where the determination would be made whether your federal student loans would be discharged or not. Based on the income of healthcare providers, it would likely get disapproved. But to say that bankruptcy as a means to have loans discharged is simply illegal is not correct.
Source: Discharge in Bankruptcy

I'm assuming you're in a different generation so you can't actually see it affecting your peers.
Quite the assumption. Your assumption regarding my generation holds no basis.

They're screwed and are going to die with their debt
This is not correct. Based on what you're saying, they would not be on a standard repayment plan. Loans get discharged after 20-25 years depending on which plan one chooses. Of course they would be liable for that tax bomb at discharge, but that liability can also be spread out over a number of years. It's more manageable this way.

especially if pslf gets axed
This is incorrect. If these people you know have already begun making 120 required eligible payments under PSLF, it would not be axed. If PSLF is removed, it would be for new borrowers, which is not the case you are talking about.

It's not cost of living driving up costs
I never said cost of living is driving up costs. I said the student would have a higher loan balance because their cost of living was higher. It is much more expensive to live in these metropolitan areas than in places such as flyover states.

Inflation is a component but it's not the root cause
I never mentioned inflation. Not once.

If there end up being too many dentists and they have to compete on prices then some will DEFAULT. They're going to charge as much as possible. Period.
That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.
It's simple supply and demand. If there is an oversupply of dentists that are competing, it drives prices down not up. That's why reimbursement rates are lower in areas of saturation.
Fortunately, there is not an oversupply of dentists. The issue lies in the distribution of dentists. There are plenty of areas where they would do well financially. But if they make the choice not to relocate to those areas, then there is no sympathy. Dentistry has many many options to do well financially, and it's up to the individual to make those informed decisions. Cost of dental tuition is not to blame for a dentist who fails to do proper market analysis before hanging up their shingle.

Your type of attitude in trying to defend these programs is pathetic
Rude

I just realized you may not have made this connection in your head....
Rude

Dental tuition is INCENTIVIZING illegal procedures and acts in order to make a living.
Incentivizing? Really?
Like I said, there are many options to make a good living in the field. Engaging in illegal is definitely an option, but as we both know, it's wrong. It's a personal choice that clinician makes, and no one held a gun to their heads to do it. If they decide to make as much money as possible in the shortest amount of time by committing malpractice and fraud, it's on them and not on anyone else. This is why malpractice law and licensing boards exist.

Idk if you work for a school. If you do.....look at yourself in the mirror and realize how bad this actually is.

If not, then please understand that what I'm saying is on point.
Another assumption about me. Just because I disagree with much of what you have to say does not mean that I'm employed by a school and defending them. I do not work for any school and I have no problems with what I see in the mirror.
 
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So what do you think needs to happen? Less dentists? Higher reimbursements? And how is it to be gone about? What is the way to be successful, in your opinion?


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I apologize that I missed this.

My opinion is to adapt to the situation, because it will not adapt to you. There are many options in the field and still plenty of opportunities for success. Many of the people here will likely do well because they are trying to learn as much as they can. "Chance favors the prepared mind."
If you know you will be in significant debt, start looking at options as early as possible. Look at the military or NHSC. Some counties have loan repayment programs. As stated earlier, refinancing is possible, but loan forgiveness would no longer be an option.
Start learning about niche markets. Look at underserved areas. There are areas that are designated FQHC's that have low cost-of-living and qualify for PSLF (while it's an option). These are just a few examples.

Less of any competition would be nice, but it's not realistic. You have the option to go to areas where competition is less robust. But if one chooses to stay in areas like NYC and LA, they shouldn't really blame anyone that it's so tough. The money is out there.

Higher reimbursements would be nice too, but also unrealistic. It can lead to many issues such as the cost of insurance premiums going up, becoming unaffordable for many. It would also lead to (IMO) making the dental tuition problem even worse. I say this because the gross income of many dentists would increase due to higher reimbursements. Based purely on numbers it would become an even more attractive career option, leading to a higher demand for a DDS/DMD degree. This gives schools the power to increase tuition even more and just perpetuate the cycle.

As mentioned earlier, capping loans would be a very bad idea IMO. It would shift the admissions process from a meritocracy to a pay-to-play model. There would be many well-qualified applicants who would simply not be able to afford dental school, so those seats would go to applicants that are less competitive academically, but have the means to pay for tuition.

There is no blanket fix for this issue because tuition will not decrease. Be well-informed and have a strategy in place to succeed.
 
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If people wouldn't be given unlimited loans, then only rich or old people would be able to study dentistry, which is unfair and much worse, in my opinion
I am glad there are expensive programs, because people with imperfect applications need a chance too. They will exchange hard work later for earlier laziness or simple misfortune

Just gonna say I love the way you think about the things above. It's a great perspective to have.
 
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This is incorrect. It is not likely for healthcare providers due to the income and the repayment options. You would need to file Chapter 7 or Chapter 13 bankruptcy. Additionally, you would need to file for an adversary proceeding in a separate court where the determination would be made whether your federal student loans would be discharged or not. Based on the income of healthcare providers, it would likely get disapproved. But to say that bankruptcy as a means to have loans discharged is simply illegal is not correct.
Source: Discharge in Bankruptcy


Quite the assumption. Your assumption regarding my generation holds no basis.


This is not correct. Based on what you're saying, they would not be on a standard repayment plan. Loans get discharged after 20-25 years depending on which plan one chooses. Of course they would be liable for that tax bomb at discharge, but that liability can also be spread out over a number of years. It's more manageable this way.


This is incorrect. If these people you know have already begun making 120 required eligible payments under PSLF, it would not be axed. If PSLF is removed, it would be for new borrowers, which is not the case you are talking about.


I never said cost of living is driving up costs. I said the student would have a higher loan balance because their cost of living was higher. It is much more expensive to live in these metropolitan areas than in places such as flyover states.


I never mentioned inflation. Not once.


That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.
It's simple supply and demand. If there is an oversupply of dentists that are competing, it drives prices down not up. That's why reimbursement rates are lower in areas of saturation.
Fortunately, there is not an oversupply of dentists. The issue lies in the distribution of dentists. There are plenty of areas where they would do well financially. But if they make the choice not to relocate to those areas, then there is no sympathy. Dentistry has many many options to do well financially, and it's up to the individual to make those informed decisions. Cost of dental tuition is not to blame for a dentist who fails to do proper market analysis before hanging up their shingle.


Rude


Rude


Incentivizing? Really?
Like I said, there are many options to make a good living in the field. Engaging in illegal is definitely an option, but as we both know, it's wrong. It's a personal choice that clinician makes, and no one held a gun to their heads to do it. If they decide to make as much money as possible in the shortest amount of time by committing malpractice and fraud, it's on them and not on anyone else. This is why malpractice law and licensing boards exist.


Another assumption about me. Just because I disagree with much of what you have to say does not mean that I'm employed by a school and defending them. I do not work for any school and I have no problems with what I see in the mirror.

Ok, yes, there are legal circumstances to discharge but the ease of which to discharge into bankruptcy on ANY other type of loans is actually relatively easy since you actually have collateral and private lenders are operating more on risk of making the money back, which is NOT the case with federal loans now. Let me know one private sector company that will actually give 500k for education loans. They don't exist.

Youre correct, it is unlikely that discharge into bankruptcy would get approved even though there is the ability to discharge in some circumstances which you provided (the problem is that proving due hardship is poorly defined in the courts).....How does that make increasing the rate every single year completely irrespective of outside market payment ok? Schools are still contributing to indentured servitude (paying massive amounts from income that aren't tax deductible and that are far above the principle borrowed) of healthcare professionals through the unnecessary tuition costs, which adds to the compound interest that accrues at an artificial rate, after it is taken from the federal reserve.

Do you actually think pslf and the discharge plans are going to stay around forever? Youre kidding me. This October marks the first time that it can be discharged for those that are enrolled. The MPN allows grandfathering in for people currently in the system, but that discharge plan isn't sustainable in the long run. Schools are having their cake now until the government cuts lending and returns funding to private lenders.....who would be crazy to lend 500k without collateral to students with projected starting salaries 1/4th of the amount.

My comment on inflation was in regards to the argument that living expenses in areas are contributing significantly to total student loan debt. Its a component, yes, but not the main cause of the entire COA and total debt. The main cause is a guaranteed lending system without a cap that is gamed irrespective of outside markets.

Dentists in areas of saturation or moderate competition will default on their loans because they cannot afford to make the payments. If they go to areas without saturation they can charge higher. That still hurts patients pockets more even though that dentist is charging what is necessary to pay the bills. The whole cycle starts with the artificial overpriced education that universities have created.

I mentioned physicians overordering tests to pay their bills and compounding interest student loans. That is the same thing that will happen with dent regardless of wanting to deny that or not.

Your seeming defense and rationale to the tuition, or at least an implication, makes it seem as if you are a school admin perpetuating the system or a someone in a different generation that never even remotely had to deal with such an outrageous debt burden. Forgive me if that was an incorrect interpretation.
 
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Ok, yes, there are legal circumstances to discharge but the ease of which to discharge into bankruptcy on ANY other type of loans is actually relatively easy since you actually have collateral and private lenders are operating more on risk of making the money back, which is NOT the case with federal loans now. Let me know one private sector company that will actually give 500k for education loans. They don't exist.

Youre correct, it is unlikely that discharge into bankruptcy would get approved even though there is the ability to discharge in some circumstances which you provided (the problem is that proving due hardship is poorly defined in the courts).....How does that make increasing the rate every single year completely irrespective of outside market payment ok? Schools are still contributing to indentured servitude (paying massive amounts from income that aren't tax deductible and that are far above the principle borrowed) of healthcare professionals through the unnecessary tuition costs, which adds to the compound interest that accrues at an artificial rate, after it is taken from the federal reserve.

Do you actually think pslf and the discharge plans are going to stay around forever? Youre kidding me. This October marks the first time that it can be discharged for those that are enrolled. The MPN allows grandfathering in for people currently in the system, but that discharge plan isn't sustainable in the long run. Schools are having their cake now until the government cuts lending and returns funding to private lenders.....who would be crazy to lend 500k without collateral to students with projected starting salaries 1/4th of the amount.

My comment on inflation was in regards to the argument that living expenses in areas are contributing significantly to total student loan debt. Its a component, yes, but not the main cause of the entire COA and total debt. The main cause is a guaranteed lending system without a cap that is gamed irrespective of outside markets.

Dentists in areas of saturation or moderate competition will default on their loans because they cannot afford to make the payments. If they go to areas without saturation they can charge higher. That still hurts patients pockets more even though that dentist is charging what is necessary to pay the bills. The whole cycle starts with the artificial overpriced education that universities have created.

I mentioned physicians overordering tests to pay their bills and compounding interest student loans. That is the same thing that will happen with dent regardless of wanting to deny that or not.

Your seeming defense and rationale to the tuition, or at least an implication, makes it seem as if you are a school admin perpetuating the system or a someone in a different generation that never even remotely had to deal with such an outrageous debt burden. Forgive me if that was an incorrect interpretation.
I know that my writing is hard to understand, but Schmoob's is perfect, but you still don't get it. My condolences. Hope you didn't go to dental school
 
I know that my writing is hard to understand, but Schmoob's is perfect, but you still don't get it. My condolences. Hope you didn't go to dental school

Thank you for comparing me to a middle eastern terrorist earlier in the thread. Hopefully some prospective students can do math and understand that incentives, bills, and payment drive practice patterns.

I'm in a different field but these problems are in all professional fields. Have a nice day.
 
Thank you for comparing me to a middle eastern terrorist earlier in the thread. Hopefully some prospective students can do math and understand that incentives, bills, and payment drive practice patterns.

I'm in a different field but these problems are in all professional fields. Have a nice day.
Your original argument had at least one negative premise - bankruptcy as a solution to debt. Bankrupty is not a solution but rather a consequential dead end.

Now you present a reverse ad hominem attack. I'm all for healthy discussion, but we didn't get settled to a point.

Don't you understand that bankruptcy isn't a solution? It isn't the car manufacturers where if the government didn't give them bankruptcy bailouts, the whole economy would collapse further. Bankruptcy for not-so-well-to-do dental school graduates would most likely stifle Medicaid, which certainly doesn't need to happen.

I'm shocked with how left-centric your political economic philosophy seems to be, you haven't just said that dental schools shouldn't be allowed to charge X amount of dollars, since dental schools are becoming more and more synonymous with the idea of millions of dollars of borrowed money going to one place each fiscal year.

I think that if the government can tell you how much they will pay for a filling, they should be able to tell dental schools how much they will charge for tuition. Oh well, one can dream...

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Your original argument had at least one negative premise - bankruptcy as a solution to debt. Bankrupty is not a solution but rather a consequential dead end.

Now you present a reverse ad hominem attack. I'm all for healthy discussion, but we didn't get settled to a point.

Don't you understand that bankruptcy isn't a solution? It isn't the car manufacturers where if the government didn't give them bankruptcy bailouts, the whole economy would collapse further. Bankruptcy for not-so-well-to-do dental school graduates would most likely stifle Medicaid, which certainly doesn't need to happen.

I'm shocked with how left-centric your political economic philosophy seems to be, you haven't just said that dental schools shouldn't be allowed to charge X amount of dollars, since dental schools are becoming more and more synonymous with the idea of millions of dollars of borrowed money going to one place each fiscal year.

I think that if the government can tell you how much they will pay for a filling, they should be able to tell dental schools how much they will charge for tuition. Oh well, one can dream...

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Correct. That would be a funding cap. Bankruptcy isn't a good solution, but the current trajectory is years of indentured servitude to unregulated COA. If it were more of an option (it's not because "undue hardship" is very poorly defined) then reasons for bankruptcy among health professionals would get more press coverage leading to the root of the problem.....tuition costs.....and more public awareness.

If the government won't cap the funds and schools won't drop the gravytrain then what has to happen? Either people stop applying or it becomes a public issue (I.e. bankruptcies from professionals who struggle to pay debt or patients voicing anger because they can't pay healthcare costs....eventually leading to public awareness of the root cause again...tuition). That would take time though.....and a lot of unnecessary hardship. I don't see that going down any other way though as long as students keep attending these programs and the fed refuses to cap lending.

As much as a pain I've been and the arguing that occurs in these threads.....it needs to become public knowledge.
 
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This morning, I received an email from NYU asking me to fill out a survey as to why I will not be attending the school even though I was admitted. I think a link to this thread would sufficiently answer their question :laugh: :whistle:
 
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This morning, I received an email from NYU asking me to fill out a survey as to why I will not be attending the school even though I was admitted. I think a link to this thread would sufficiently answer their question :laugh: :whistle:

Triple dog dare you
 
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Oh I'm definitely upset that cost of education even has to be a part of the equation for the profession I chose. I was born outside of the US and was going to become a dentist after high school. But all education is nearly free in Europe.

The issue is multifactorial where students, government and schools have all failed at providing a good education at a reasonable cost to future generation of doctors/dentists/etc. It's totally unsustainable.

I'll give you an anology of a dishonest dentist who sees and drills cavities where there are no cavities. Yes, the patients who agree to treatment should know better (but how?) The government has not been able to recognize what that dentist is up to. But finally the dentist should be ashamed of himself for the product he is providing to the public, just as NYU should be ashamed of leading the way in outrageous educational costs. There should be consumer protections for students, as clearly not everyone is able to recognize that the schools are too expensive for them. Of course there is a fanatical belief among many in this country, which is also seen in your posts, that free markets work, even when they clearly aren't that free and don't work as in the case of dental school education.

Dental school, and dentistry in general, is not a free market(On the macro scale). Through political pressure both at the state and federal level, the amount of dentist is controlled by ADA.

Furthermore, in a true free market government loans wouldn't be a factor. Private lenders are not as "charitable" as the government.
 
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Dental school, and dentistry in general, is not a free market(On the macro scale). Through political pressure both at the state and federal level, the amount of dentist is controlled by ADA.

Furthermore, in a true free market government loans wouldn't be a factor. Private lenders are not as "charitable" as the government.

Solid perspective. Not as restricted as the AMA, but yes restricted.
 
Thank you for comparing me to a middle eastern terrorist earlier in the thread. Hopefully some prospective students can do math and understand that incentives, bills, and payment drive practice patterns.

I'm in a different field but these problems are in all professional fields. Have a nice day.
You are welcome, it's hard to find another example of irrational fanatism.
People, who are unable to bite as much as they can chew, deserve to pay later
 
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This morning, I received an email from NYU asking me to fill out a survey as to why I will not be attending the school even though I was admitted. I think a link to this thread would sufficiently answer their question :laugh: :whistle:
And why did you apply there?
 
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And why did you apply there?
At application time, I wasn't fully aware of the financial landscape of dentistry, specifically NYU. I just wanted to get in somewhere. Embarrassing to admit, but the truth.
 
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Quick question, just because I thought it would be interesting to add. I hope I don't get bombarded. However, if you were to live at home, live close by to a dentist that you could be an associate for and invest the money you earn (stocks/day-trading) would you be able to pay off your loans/debts faster if you did well in those stocks/day trading? Just curious to see what people think about minimizing costs for a couple of years, invest, and pay off the debt.
 
So you are implying that 90% of dental school applicants are idiots?
I can say this -- 80% of all pre-med/dental/pharmacy applicants at my university that I mentored didn't care about the cost. They only cared about getting in. They'd deal with the financial aspect of figuring out how to actually pay for it after they finished their professional schooling. That was the mentality of most of them. SDN does not portray the mindset of the applicant pool at large by any means whatsoever.
 
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Quick question, just because I thought it would be interesting to add. I hope I don't get bombarded. However, if you were to live at home, live close by to a dentist that you could be an associate for and invest the money you earn (stocks/day-trading) would you be able to pay off your loans/debts faster if you did well in those stocks/day trading? Just curious to see what people think about minimizing costs for a couple of years, invest, and pay off the debt.
It's hard to get more then 7% return on the investment without significantly increasing the risk of loosing everything.
In order to be able to pay off your loans faster you need to learn as much as possible at school and get the best hand skills at school to eliminate the "learning on the job". You simply can't afford to, your income has to increase at a very fast pace, unless you want to die with your loans :)
Living with your parents or having SO pay for living expenses is another way to speed up the loan repayment. Denying yourself a sensible car is not, as well as living on Ramen
All the above are for people who can't relocate to Alaska, go Army/Navy and other well known routes
 
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Ah @oralcare123 thanks man! I've been budget planning with a few different variables just to see how many years it would take. Thanks for the input.
 
At application time, I wasn't fully aware of the financial landscape of dentistry, specifically NYU. I just wanted to get in somewhere. Embarrassing to admit, but the truth.

Same here. I also applied with blissful ignorance. When I sat down and ran up the actual costs with interest for the schools in New York I was just shellshocked. No shame at all. Just chalk it up as a learning experience; we're only human. In hindsight it would've been smarter to apply outside of the northeast.
 
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I think the only people who should apply to NYU are people who already live their or with their parents so they don't have to pay for rent assuming their parents are generous. I think for OOS students it just isn't worth it to spend that much on tuition and an apartment. I don't know how much the cost of living is but it seems equivalent to some in state college tuition and that's crazy.
 
There's literally no way you're paying back $650,000 even as a practice owner unless you move to middle of nowhere Oklahoma and set up a fee only practice right next to an Indian reservation covered by medicaid with insane reimbursement rates AND you qualify for their rural dentist loan forgiveness program.

“Everything you want in life has a price connected to it. There’s a price to pay if you want to make things better, a price to pay just for leaving things as they are, a price for everything.” –Harry Browne

I grew up in rural Kansas an hour away from the reservation, farm house with a dirt floor in two rooms...the whole nine yards. For some of us, that's an option. It's not where I would prefer to be, but there are some definite upsides to living in a rural community. It's not the ninth circle of hell for those of us that are flexible.

I'm currently in the military (active duty) and I can consider NYU for the simple reason that I have loan repayment options through the Army. The reserves has good loan repayment options as well, especially if you parlay them against other public programs that are out there.

We haven't even talked about government contracting yet. I know a retired medical services officer (only has a B.S. in public health or something of the like) that is making over $300K per year to work as an adviser in Afghanistan. He does six months on, and two months off stateside. He's paid off his house and his kids are set for college. He's planning to do maybe one more year (one in so far) and then call it quits. There are plenty of contracts for people who are willing to go to the ends of the earth and dispense medical knowledge.

For me the price of continuing my career (which I do not like) as a human resource officer is far heavier than half million dollars I will have to pay off to NYU. I'm sick of cleaning up the messes of entitled a-holes that are immune to good advice. If $620K is the price tag for a career that doesn't involve a boss like my last commander, then in my opinion that's a steep but doable price.

If I get into NYU I am going. I knew that when I dropped my application that it cost the earth to go there. I know that I have to have stuff wired tight in order for everything to fall into place. I appreciate your advice, but I always land on my feet.
 
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“Everything you want in life has a price connected to it. There’s a price to pay if you want to make things better, a price to pay just for leaving things as they are, a price for everything.” –Harry Browne

I grew up in rural Kansas an hour away from the reservation, farm house with a dirt floor in two rooms...the whole nine yards. For some of us, that's an option. It's not where I would prefer to be, but there are some definite upsides to living in a rural community. It's not the ninth circle of hell for those of us that are flexible.

I'm currently in the military (active duty) and I can consider NYU for the simple reason that I have loan repayment options through the Army. The reserves has good loan repayment options as well, especially if you parlay them against other public programs that are out there.

We haven't even talked about government contracting yet. I know a retired medical services officer (only has a B.S. in public health or something of the like) that is making over $300K per year to work as an adviser in Afghanistan. He does six months on, and two months off stateside. He's paid off his house and his kids are set for college. He's planning to do maybe one more year (one in so far) and then call it quits. There are plenty of contracts for people who are willing to go to the ends of the earth and dispense medical knowledge.

For me the price of continuing my career (which I do not like) as a human resource officer is far heavier than half million dollars I will have to pay off to NYU. I'm sick of cleaning up the messes of entitled a-holes that are immune to good advice. If $620K is the price tag for a career that doesn't involve a boss like my last commander, then in my opinion that's a steep but doable price.

If I get into NYU I am going. I knew that when I dropped my application that it cost the earth to go there. I know that I have to have stuff wired tight in order for everything to fall into place. I appreciate your advice, but I always land on my feet.
This whole thread doesn't really apply to the people with scholarships or that are getting the military to pay for their schooling. It's targeted towards the students who are solely relying on loans that they themselves will have to pay back.
 
This whole thread doesn't really apply to the people with scholarships or that are getting the military to pay for their schooling. It's targeted towards the students who are solely relying on loans that they themselves will have to pay back.

My point was not necessarily that everyone should run out and join the military to pay for school. With 10 years of service I have encountered some individuals in the medical branches who should not be Soldiers. My point was that this is not a that dire of a situation if individuals are willing to set aside their sense of entitlement and what they think they "deserve" stepping out of dental school.

The OP was moaning that the only viable alternative to earning a paltry $70K per year was to go into private practice *gasp* in Oklahoma.

I earn about $70K per year and it's sufficient for me to support a family of five and still be able to put my husband through engineering school. Yes, I drive a Hyundai and take my lunch to work. We can't afford to eat out very often and family vacations don't involve Disney, but we have all the basics covered. You can cover a mortgage and car note on $70K and can live pretty comfortably if you are single.

Setting up a private practice in a rural area is incredibly lucrative. Our town has not had a dentist in over 30+ years. The closest one is an hour away in Alva, Oklahoma. Dr. Pierce, who is not a great dentist IMO, has had TWO other clinics built at the expense of the surrounding communities. He doesn't pay a dime for those facilities or for advertising because he's the only game in town in a 80 mile radius. He bragged to my father a couple of years ago that he was clearing about $400K per year. That was about a week before he went to Germany to have his custom built BMW shipped to the US, which he does about every two years.

The OP assumed that it wasn't worth going to dental school if upon graduation we all can't just make $150K per year doing general dentistry at a private practice in an affluent suburb and that NYU is too expensive.

Everything in life has a price, including the decision NOT to go to dental school or to sit out this admission cycle and apply again. If someone really wants to go to dental school and the only admission offer they get is NYU, then there is a way to make this work financially. It just might not be someone's ideal situation.
 
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My point was not necessarily that everyone should run out and join the military to pay for school. With 10 years of service I have encountered some individuals in the medical branches who should not be Soldiers. My point was that this is not a that dire of a situation if individuals are willing to set aside their sense of entitlement and what they think they "deserve" stepping out of dental school.

The OP was moaning that the only viable alternative to earning a paltry $70K per year was to go into private practice *gasp* in Oklahoma.

I earn about $70K per year and it's sufficient for me to support a family of five and still be able to put my husband through engineering school. Yes, I drive a Hyundai and take my lunch to work. We can't afford to eat out very often and family vacations don't involve Disney, but we have all the basics covered. You can cover a mortgage and car note on $70K and can live pretty comfortably if you are single.

Setting up a private practice in a rural area is incredibly lucrative. Our town has not had a dentist in over 30+ years. The closest one is an hour away in Alva, Oklahoma. Dr. Pierce, who is not a great dentist IMO, has had TWO other clinics built at the expense of the surrounding communities. He doesn't pay a dime for those facilities or for advertising because he's the only game in town in a 80 mile radius. He bragged to my father a couple of years ago that he was clearing about $400K per year. That was about a week before he went to Germany to have his custom built BMW shipped to the US, which he does about every two years.

The OP assumed that it wasn't worth going to dental school if upon graduation we all can't just make $150K per year doing general dentistry at a private practice in an affluent suburb and that NYU is too expensive.

Everything in life has a price, including the decision NOT to go to dental school or to sit out this admission cycle and apply again. If someone really wants to go to dental school and the only admission offer they get is NYU, then there is a way to make this work financially. It just might not be someone's ideal situation.

Some damn good advice right here.
 
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My point was not necessarily that everyone should run out and join the military to pay for school. With 10 years of service I have encountered some individuals in the medical branches who should not be Soldiers. My point was that this is not a that dire of a situation if individuals are willing to set aside their sense of entitlement and what they think they "deserve" stepping out of dental school.

The OP was moaning that the only viable alternative to earning a paltry $70K per year was to go into private practice *gasp* in Oklahoma.

I earn about $70K per year and it's sufficient for me to support a family of five and still be able to put my husband through engineering school. Yes, I drive a Hyundai and take my lunch to work. We can't afford to eat out very often and family vacations don't involve Disney, but we have all the basics covered. You can cover a mortgage and car note on $70K and can live pretty comfortably if you are single.

Setting up a private practice in a rural area is incredibly lucrative. Our town has not had a dentist in over 30+ years. The closest one is an hour away in Alva, Oklahoma. Dr. Pierce, who is not a great dentist IMO, has had TWO other clinics built at the expense of the surrounding communities. He doesn't pay a dime for those facilities or for advertising because he's the only game in town in a 80 mile radius. He bragged to my father a couple of years ago that he was clearing about $400K per year. That was about a week before he went to Germany to have his custom built BMW shipped to the US, which he does about every two years.

The OP assumed that it wasn't worth going to dental school if upon graduation we all can't just make $150K per year doing general dentistry at a private practice in an affluent suburb and that NYU is too expensive.

Everything in life has a price, including the decision NOT to go to dental school or to sit out this admission cycle and apply again. If someone really wants to go to dental school and the only admission offer they get is NYU, then there is a way to make this work financially. It just might not be someone's ideal situation.

Is this OK dentist happy? Or does he use the custom built BMWs as a replacement for happiness? Does he brag about how much he's clearing because he takes pride in his work, or because he wants to feel significant in this big world?

At the end of the day if you have $100 million or $100,000 saved up at retirement, did you enjoy your life, have a moderate amount of stress, take good vacations with your family, and have the freedom to pursue anything you want?

You can have the first 3 w a NYU dental degree. Not so sure you have the last option.

I say heck yeah go to NYU if your only other alternative is being miserable.

I'd just ask anyone who's doing graduate school in general how sure are they that this next step is the magic pill you needed to swallow for life to work out?

So many for profit schools out there prey on people's lack of meaning. Their sense of "I can be more." Of course you can, but you know who's definitely more? The man or woman who's running the school getting a fat commission everytime they convince someone to take on a huge pile of debt for a dream that might not have turned out to be what they wanted it to be.

it's all perspective. If debt is stressful and you're worried about how to pay it off, going to NYU will just amplify this stress. If Trump ever does something bad with the income driven plans, many new grads would be totally screwed. Food for thought that w 25 cents will get you a stick of gum.
 
Is this OK dentist happy? Or does he use the custom built BMWs as a replacement for happiness
If I had a built out 6 series I’d be the happiest person on the planet. People have different wants and needs. You’re comparing apples to oranges. Of course more money is good but many people have different priorities and rankings for luxuries
 
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If I had a built out 6 series I’d be the happiest person on the planet. People have different wants and needs. You’re comparing apples to oranges. Of course more money is good but many people have different priorities and rankings for luxuries
I'm a avid car enthusiasts and dream to be able to afford to build many cars

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Custom building BMW does not cost anything extra. German auto producers pay for your travel to pick the car, visit the plant etc. The car is shipped later regular way, you are not paying for import at all, but have a chance to visit Germany for free
So it is not luxury at all and not a substitute for happiness
 
Custom building BMW does not cost anything extra. German auto producers pay for your travel to pick the car, visit the plant etc. The car is shipped later regular way, you are not paying for import at all, but have a chance to visit Germany for free
So it is not luxury at all and not a substitute for happiness

I will be sure to keep in mind that a brand new customized BMW shipped straight from the factory isn't actually a luxury when as I'm buckling my three kids into the back of my Hyundai coup wondering, how much longer I can fit two car seats and booster in there with having to break down and buy a minivan.
 
it's all perspective. If debt is stressful and you're worried about how to pay it off, going to NYU will just amplify this stress. If Trump ever does something bad with the income driven plans, many new grads would be totally screwed. Food for thought that w 25 cents will get you a stick of gum.

Quick question: Have you met any dentists that are working two jobs or relying on public assistance to get by? I personally have not.

However, I know a few people with four year or advanced degrees that are doing that. I know someone with a master's degree in physics who is full-time at Pet Smart as as a sales associates and is working an extra 30 hours a week as an adjunct at a community college...

How likely do you really think it is that Trump will mess with income-driven repayment plans? And if he does how is this any different than someone with an undergraduate degree that has to ask for a deferment for a month here or there because they are behind on bills, etc? I don't think that as long as you are paying what you can that they are going to take you to court and ask for a judgement.
 
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