Physician murdered for not prescribing narcotics

[EM4life]

Mishawaka IN - pt's husband killed physician after he refused to prescribe her pain medicine.

Mishawaka man killed doctor after dispute over opioid prescription, police say

Sad, preventable? How often do you get threats or feel otherwise threatened by angry narcotic seeking patients? What do you do in response to these threats?

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[Old_Mil]

Carry a gun...

...and know how to use it.

In the final analysis, the ultimate responsibility for your own personal safety lies with you.

 

[bravotwozero]

Carry a gun...

...and know how to use it.

In the final analysis, the ultimate responsibility for your own personal safety lies with you.

You carry a gun inside the hospital?


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[GeneralVeers]

You carry a gun inside the hospital?


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My state allows concealed carry. I am definitely considering. I have a .380 which would be undetectable under scrubs.

 

[d2305]

A .22 or .32 would be more concealable but they don't have knock down power.

 

[namethatsmell]

How is this not national news? Ironic how news outlets love to report on the few docs who get busted for inappropriate prescribing...but when a doc is slain for refusing to prescribe we get crickets.


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[Mr. Vandemar]

My state allows concealed carry. I am definitely considering. I have a .380 which would be undetectable under scrubs.

Curious what your hospital policies would be. An ED doc where I worked as a tech maaaany years ago was found to be carrying a gun (he was licensed for concealed) and was immediately terminated and escorted off of the property. Not sure what happened with that.

 

[deleted109597]

Curious what your hospital policies would be. An ED doc where I worked as a tech maaaany years ago was found to be carrying a gun (he was licensed for concealed) and was immediately terminated and escorted off of the property. Not sure what happened with that.

Don't care. Would rather get fired than get carried out.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Curious what your hospital policies would be. An ED doc where I worked as a tech maaaany years ago was found to be carrying a gun (he was licensed for concealed) and was immediately terminated and escorted off of the property. Not sure what happened with that.

Most hospitals have a "no guns on hospital grounds" policy. To carry a gun to work, would mean termination if found out, however with the correct permit it would break no laws. This measure wouldn't be necessary if hospitals took appropriate security measures. Every hospital should limit the number of visitors, and screen all visitors (and ambulatory patients) with medical detectors. A nice suburban hospital I worked in a few years ago had a shoot-out inside the ED when a mentally ill man brought in a gun and started waving it around. Police eventually shot him dead. Even after this, the hospital still refused to start screening all visitors/patients for weapons.

 

[Angry Birds]

Most hospitals have a "no guns on hospital grounds" policy. To carry a gun to work, would mean termination if found out, however with the correct permit it would break no laws. This measure wouldn't be necessary if hospitals took appropriate security measures. Every hospital should limit the number of visitors, and screen all visitors (and ambulatory patients) with medical detectors. A nice suburban hospital I worked in a few years ago had a shoot-out inside the ED when a mentally ill man brought in a gun and started waving it around. Police eventually shot him dead. Even after this, the hospital still refused to start screening all visitors/patients for weapons.

It seems like such a rare event to dictate policy over. Metal detectors and pat downs, etc. creates a very militarized, unfriendly, and even hostile environment, when people are just trying to get their loved ones taken care of. If there was a shooting in a library, I don't think that would justify metal detectors at libraries.

However, I understand the point that we do deal with mentally disturbed patients... I think a careful study/analysis would need to be done, and outside the emotionality of one acute event. Shrug.

 

[Angry Birds]

Don't care. Would rather get fired than get carried out.

That's insane not to care. I think getting terminated on such grounds could put your license and future employment at risk. As soon as you put under the field "Have you ever been terminated for cause" section, "I took a gun to work", I think you'd be done.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Most hospitals have a "no guns on hospital grounds" policy. To carry a gun to work, would mean termination if found out, however with the correct permit it would break no laws. This measure wouldn't be necessary if hospitals took appropriate security measures. Every hospital should limit the number of visitors, and screen all visitors (and ambulatory patients) with medical detectors. A nice suburban hospital I worked in a few years ago had a shoot-out inside the ED when a mentally ill man brought in a gun and started waving it around. Police eventually shot him dead. Even after this, the hospital still refused to start screening all visitors/patients for weapons.

Not to sound too morbid but if a patient or person really wanted to kill someone, no amount security would be enough. It's too easy to get information on people online and being a doctor gives the world access to unlimited amount of information.

I do agree, this should have been on the news more.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Not to sound too morbid but if a patient or person really wanted to kill someone, no amount security would be enough. It's too easy to get information on people online and being a doctor gives the world access to unlimited amount of information.

I do agree, this should have been on the news more.

This is why I always keep at least 6 feet of separation between myself and the crazy patients, and I always keep my back to the door. If they appear physically well, I don't even examine many of them if they appear violent or agitated. I also keep the curtain (yes we have curtains in 2017) open.

I do the same when giving the bad news to drug-seekers that they aren't getting anything.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

It seems like such a rare event to dictate policy over. Metal detectors and pat downs, etc. creates a very militarized, unfriendly, and even hostile environment, when people are just trying to get their loved ones taken care of. If there was a shooting in a library, I don't think that would justify metal detectors at libraries.

However, I understand the point that we do deal with mentally disturbed patients... I think a careful study/analysis would need to be done, and outside the emotionality of one acute event. Shrug.

That's the reality of living in a country with more guns than people.

 

[Druggernaut]

This measure wouldn't be necessary if hospitals took appropriate security measures. Every hospital should limit the number of visitors, and screen all visitors (and ambulatory patients) with medical detectors. A nice suburban hospital I worked in a few years ago had a shoot-out inside the ED when a mentally ill man brought in a gun and started waving it around. Police eventually shot him dead. Even after this, the hospital still refused to start screening all visitors/patients for weapons.

We have a metal detector walk-ins have to pass through, and people coming in by ambulance are wanded by our armed university hospital police force. I've still found out after the fact that multiple psych patients I've evaluated in the psych part of the ED had knives in their belongings when nursing staff was inventorying their belongings prior to locking them up, and one had a gun.

I rotated at another place as a med student that had recently put a metal detector in the entrance. I was told lots of people apparently saw it, returned to their cars to apparently store their weapons, then returned to check in.

In the close quarters environment of the ED, I have to wonder if you'd actually be increasing your odds of being seriously wounded by carrying a gun, though.

 

[Birdstrike]

Most hospitals have a "no guns on hospital grounds" policy. To carry a gun to work, would mean termination if found out, however with the correct permit it would break no laws. This measure wouldn't be necessary if hospitals took appropriate security measures. Every hospital should limit the number of visitors, and screen all visitors (and ambulatory patients) with medical detectors. A nice suburban hospital I worked in a few years ago had a shoot-out inside the ED when a mentally ill man brought in a gun and started waving it around. Police eventually shot him dead. Even after this, the hospital still refused to start screening all visitors/patients for weapons.

In my state, it's illegal to carry a concealed weapon into a doctors office, medical building or hospital, even if you have a concealed weapon permit. The only exception (other than law enforcement) is if a concealed weapon permit holder gets written permission from the hospital or medical practice. The likelihood of getting such permission is slim. Also, the penalty for taking a concealed weapon into a gun free zone (permit or not) is up to 1 year in jail and/or $10,000 fine. The thought of jailing a doctor who's permitted and carrying for self defense seems wrong to me. We are people who carry the lives of others in the balance daily. I doesn't make sense we shouldn't be able to protect our own. If anyone should be able to be trusted with "life and death matters" it's doctors, after all, isn't it?

Personally, I am very pro-second amendment, considering people that are willing to violate laws prohibiting murder and attempted murder will not in anyway hesitate to violate gun laws, or gun free zones. The only people that follow the laws are the law abiding and people and rule followers. I do have a concealed weapon permit and I follow all such laws including gun free zones, although for the most part I think they don't work, and may even empower shooters and unbalanced people by disarming rule followers, and the rational law-abiding. I know not everyone agrees, and the topic is very controversial. I'm not interested in debating the topic. That's just how I feel.

 

[deleted109597]

That's insane not to care. I think getting terminated on such grounds could put your license and future employment at risk. As soon as you put under the field "Have you ever been terminated for cause" section, "I took a gun to work", I think you'd be done.

Doubt it. Considering the number of doctors I see who have been convicted of things that can still work, I'm pretty sure I could find a job somewhere.
Also, unemployable is still better than dead. And the only way they would "find out" I had a gun is because I had to shoot someone. So there's that.

 

[deleted109597]

In the close quarters environment of the ED, I have to wonder if you'd actually be increasing your odds of being seriously wounded by carrying a gun, though.

I mean, if you don't know what you're doing, then yeah.
But guns aren't great for close quarters. That's what the Benchmade is for. My hand is on or around it a lot more than the appendix carry.

 

[deleted109597]

And finally, I've only worked at 1 hospital with a metal detector.
Weapons Retrieved After the Implementation of Emergency Department Metal Detection. - PubMed - NCBI
Metal detectors in the pediatric emergency department: patron attitudes and national prevalence. - PubMed - NCBI

Of the hospitals I've worked at that don't, 1 has had a lockdown, and 1 has had a nurse abducted and murdered.
At my freestanding, I make the rules. I carry. If you don't want to, that's your prerogative.

 

[GeneralVeers]

And finally, I've only worked at 1 hospital with a metal detector.
Weapons Retrieved After the Implementation of Emergency Department Metal Detection. - PubMed - NCBI
Metal detectors in the pediatric emergency department: patron attitudes and national prevalence. - PubMed - NCBI

Of the hospitals I've worked at that don't, 1 has had a lockdown, and 1 has had a nurse abducted and murdered.
At my freestanding, I make the rules. I carry. If you don't want to, that's your prerogative.

Yet another reason to own and work at a freestanding!

We are practioners who are forced BY LAW to be in close quarters with violent people, drug dealers, prisoners, and just downright bad people. We should be allowed to carry a weapon with proper training and certification.

 

[bravotwozero]

Sinai grace hospital in Detroit is located in arguably the worst part of Detroit - they've got metal detectors there that they make everyone pass through - they've had shootouts occur in their friggin parking lot.

Where I work now psych patients get wanded, but that's about it.

For those that plan on carrying a gun to the hospital, if you're that concerned about your safety then are you also considering wearing a bulletproof vest? I mean, no hospital or state has laws against that...


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[Birdstrike]

Yet another reason to own and work at a freestanding!

We are practioners who are forced BY LAW to be in close quarters with violent people, drug dealers, prisoners, and just downright bad people. We should be allowed to carry a weapon with proper training and certification.

Agree 100%


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[BAM!]

Yet another reason to own and work at a freestanding!

We are practioners who are forced BY LAW to be in close quarters with violent people, drug dealers, prisoners, and just downright bad people. We should be allowed to carry a weapon with proper training and certification.

meh, you can do a medical screening exam from the door.

 

[Angry Birds]

Take the number of ER doctors killed in the last year and divide by the total number of ER doctors. That is what you are worried about.

 

[BAM!]

I mean, if you don't know what you're doing, then yeah.
But guns aren't great for close quarters. That's what the Benchmade is for. My hand is on or around it a lot more than the appendix carry.

JEEZ, who are you people?!

 

[Birdstrike]

Take the number of ER doctors killed in the last year and divide by the total number of ER doctors. That is what you are worried about.

I imagine it's pretty close to 0.0000something%

But, 'Merica


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[deleted109597]

JEEZ, who are you people?!

People that carry pocketknives?
Number of times I've used it in a fight=0.
Number of times I've used it as a tool=too many to count.

Nothing about me carrying a weapon will ever affect you. So why do you worry about it?

 

[deleted109597]

meh, you can do a medical screening exam from the door.

Depends on the MSE and the patient.
I've got a picture of a guy who has been clamshelled. After they were done they took his shorts off and found the gun. The picture shows all of it. Not terribly HIPPA compliant though.
Once in residency a guy came in on a spine board with his hands cuffed behind his back. Spineboard was probably less effective than it usually is that way.
Either way, when we rolled him, his gun fell out of his pocket. Thankfully he was too meth'd out to use it. This was of course at the only place I've ever been with a metal detector. It doesn't scan you on the way in from the ambulance bay.
The gun isn't for me to be the enforcer. If either of those guys had pulled a gun I would have run out of the room like everyone else. Let the feral animal escape and cause the least harm. I'm not the police. But it would be there for me if he started to chase me.

 

[deleted109597]

I imagine it's pretty close to 0.0000something%

But, 'Merica

Call me when it gets to zero. I mean, of the people on here, how many have been sued? But how many threads are there to deflect risk for that? Way more than actual people have been sued on here. And yet, risk reduction is ok in some areas, not in others apparently.

 

[Birdstrike]

Call me when it gets to zero. I mean, of the people on here, how many have been sued? But how many threads are there to deflect risk for that? Way more than actual people have been sued on here. And yet, risk reduction is ok in some areas, not in others apparently.

Oh, I'm with you bro. I have a cwp, a .45, 9mm, AR & 30-06. Hobby. Target shooting. I'm pro-concealed carry. Still unlikely I'll ever need to use it. And I'm happy about that. But I'd never give up the right to exercise 2nd amendment.




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[Angry Birds]

Call me when it gets to zero. I mean, of the people on here, how many have been sued? But how many threads are there to deflect risk for that? Way more than actual people have been sued on here. And yet, risk reduction is ok in some areas, not in others apparently.

It's an invalid comparison. If you are an ER doctor chances are you will get sued at least once in your life. If you are an ER doctor chances are that you will not get shot.

 

[Vandalia]

I am rather pessimistic on the practical value of carrying a weapon.

For hard data, look at the number of armed policemen who are killed every year. I know way too many people who put in a lot of time at the firing range and consider themselves pretty good shots yet have no idea that there is a huge difference between that and reality.

The days of dueling are over. If someone wants to kill you, he is not going to give you a chance to pull out a firearm. Back in the 80's AF, we did a mock deployment and gave the MC/NC/DC officers basically a paintball gun to carry. A day or so later we had some of the security forces infiltrate and start shooting blanks. It took at least 60 seconds for the rest to realize someone was shooting, to mentally process that they should pull out their sidearms, and to get them out and in a position close to shooting. And that was in an environment where we specifically told them to be on the alert for such things, so that is almost certainly the minimum time it would take to react in a civilian healthcare setting today. As I said, if someone is going to kill you he is not going to give you 60+ seconds to recognize that and react. Even if you make it to that point, it is almost certain you will not hit anything when you do start shooting. There is a huge difference between range accuracy and accuracy in real-world situations, even for police and military who shoot for a living.

 

[deleted109597]

It's an invalid comparison. If you are an ER doctor chances are you will get sued at least once in your life. If you are an ER doctor chances are that you will not get shot.

Chances are the multiple doctors killed this year weren't going to be killed either. Until they were.
Again, I'm not saying you have to have a weapon. But until nobody else does, I will. If I move to Australia, I would have no problem selling all of them.

 

[deleted109597]

even for police and military who shoot for a living.

Sadly, they don't. The range time put in by them is poor.
And I'll agree, I don't spend enough time at the range. I also don't intubate enough kids, I don't do enough thoractomies, and I've only done 1 perimortem section. But that doesn't keep me from doing it as best I can when i need to.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

You haven't lived until you've diagnosed a handgun on CT.

 

[WilcoWorld]

You haven't lived until you've diagnosed a handgun on CT.

Can't decide whether to reply "Pics or it didn't happen" or "MRI FTW"

 

[The White Coat Investor]

It wasn't my patient, but I was in the department. I bet I could get a pic now that I think about it...

It wasn't even a psych patient.

 

[d2305]

Even New York has concealed carry, but getting the license is more difficult. One can carry a handgun here (Fl) in the glove box, in a holster without a license.

 

[doctorFred]

I don't think "more people carrying guns" in hospitals is the answer, any more than "more people carrying guns in elementary schools" was the answer to Sandy Hook.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I don't think "more people carrying guns" in hospitals is the answer, any more than "more people carrying guns in elementary schools" was the answer to Sandy Hook.

So we've had more people carrying in schools and haven't prevented any shootings?

 

[Angry Birds]

I don't think "more people carrying guns" in hospitals is the answer, any more than "more people carrying guns in elementary schools" was the answer to Sandy Hook.

In addition to what I've already said about the very low likelihood of being shot or killed as an ER doctor, there is also what is called the weapons effect. Multiple studies have revealed that the mere presence of weapons tends to increase hostility and aggression. I think metal detectors and searches do the same.

 

[WilcoWorld]

In addition to what I've already said about the very low likelihood of being shot or killed as an ER doctor, there is also what is called the weapons effect. Multiple studies have revealed that the mere presence of weapons tends to increase hostility and aggression. I think metal detectors and searches do the same.

And the difficulty of impressing this upon people is compounded by the fact that most gun owners think this is a problem that only other people have. If only those other people were smart, capable, and trained they wouldn't have this problem.

 

[Angry Birds]

And the difficulty of impressing this upon people is compounded by the fact that most gun owners think this is a problem that only other people have. If only those other people were smart, capable, and trained they wouldn't have this problem.

Yes, I agree. In this thread itself, someone commented about how many patients returned to their cars to return their weapons. Yet, this would be the doctor him/herself who carries a hidden gun into the hospital!

 

[Apollyon]

"It's good to have an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out."

People saying that it's such a low probability of a doctor getting shot should think of NOACs, and how they say "lower incidence of serious bleeding" - but, population statistics don't apply to individuals. If it happens to, say, 1%, that's 1/100. However, to that 1 person, it is 100%. That person bleeding to death is not comforted by the fact that it is only them.

If you are the unlucky son of a bitch that gets shot at work, you're not taking solace in the numbers, or saying "thank you so much to the God that doesn't exist that this is so rare!"

I am not a gun owner.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Gunman holds up doctor for drugs at Gallatin hospital

Not uncommon. This fool was asking for demerol. Luckily he didnt shoot the doc who happened to be the medical director there.

 

[Angry Birds]

Gunman holds up doctor for drugs at Gallatin hospital

Not uncommon. This fool was asking for demerol. Luckily he didnt shoot the doc who happened to be the medical director there.

But it is uncommon. That's why I asked to take the number of ER doctors shot and killed per year and divide that by the total number of ER doctors.

It's like people listing a few cases of allergic reactions to vaccinations and then saying that this is proof against vaccinations. In fact that would be much less rare than gun fatalities amongst ER doctors.

It's not about brains falling out. It's about people not using brains at all when it comes to their political dogmas.

 

[EctopicFetus]

I personally know of other incidents. One happened to a friend in Washington.

Half of all workplace assaults happen in the health care setting. it isnt just about being shot, its about a tech who had his teeth knocked out, another tech tore his ACL, a nurse who had a patient wrap IV tubing around her neck.

The list is all stuff that happened at places I work.

perhaps where you work it is more docile. This isnt a political issue and my post isnt in reference to bringing a gun to work. It is pointing out that we work in a dangerous place. If you fail to see that I dont know what to say.

"In 2010, the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) data reported healthcare and social assistance workers were the victims of approximately 11,370 assaults by persons"

Think about how many were never reported.

 

[Old_Mil]

In addition to what I've already said about the very low likelihood of being shot or killed as an ER doctor, there is also what is called the weapons effect. Multiple studies have revealed that the mere presence of weapons tends to increase hostility and aggression. I think metal detectors and searches do the same.

The problem is that studies like this are usually performed by people who have a vested interest in reaching a preordained (anti-gun) conclusion and are of notoriously poor quality.

Compare this to actual crime statistics which correlate drops in violent crime with increases in the prevalence of gun ownership and concealed carry

 

[d2305]

An armed society is a polite society.

 

[Apollyon]

It's not about brains falling out. It's about people not using brains at all when it comes to their political dogmas.

Wow - ego much? You're right and people who believe the opposite are wrong? Or, is it that you are more evolved, and others less?

How do you know that people are just in lockstep, and haven't reasonably considered their position? That is what you are saying.