Ph.D. thinking about med school

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torifile

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I'm a licensed psychologist. I've been practicing for several years now and I'm thinking about going to med school to help in my quest to better help my patients.

I graduated from undergrad in 1998 with a BS in psychology. Got my master's and Ph.D. in psychology and I've been licensed since last year. My undergrad GPA was ok (3.65). I'll probably need to go back and pick up a few more classes in bio and chemistry. How does this work? Another degree or just some continuing ed stuff?

I've got a family now so I'll be restricted in my search for a school. Fortunately, we live in Durham, NC so we've got UNC (my undergrad institution) and Duke (my internship/post-doc institution) here.

Any pointers for this nutcase psychologist? :lol: TIA.

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Go for it.

Just keep in mind that it will be 7 years before your patients can benefit from your education.

:luck:
 
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OP, do I ever have just the thread for you! Check it out: http://more.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=402917

And if any of you other PhD-to-MD folks would like to contribute, especially if you plan to continue doing research after you graduate, that would be much appreciated. The MSTP and research MD folks are seriously outnumbering us....
 
With a family, I hope you consult your spouse before making the decision. It is not just only you that would be affected by your choice. You are looking at about 9-10 years of education (2 years for pre-med courses, 4 years for medical school and 3-4 more years of residency). If you wise to do a fellowship, that would add more years to your training as well. On top of this, there's a massive student loan that you'd have to worry about. Regardless of your PhD, you still need to complete all prerequisites and the MCAT in order to qualify for med schools.
 
I'm a licensed psychologist. I've been practicing for several years now and I'm thinking about going to med school to help in my quest to better help my patients.

I graduated from undergrad in 1998 with a BS in psychology. Got my master's and Ph.D. in psychology and I've been licensed since last year. My undergrad GPA was ok (3.65). I'll probably need to go back and pick up a few more classes in bio and chemistry. How does this work? Another degree or just some continuing ed stuff?

I've got a family now so I'll be restricted in my search for a school. Fortunately, we live in Durham, NC so we've got UNC (my undergrad institution) and Duke (my internship/post-doc institution) here.

Any pointers for this nutcase psychologist? :lol: TIA.


another nutcase therapist checking in...

I'm a clinical social worker who decided to change tracks and do med school. Have been in the field just shy of 10 years. Had to go back and get all those science classes in to be able to apply.. Depending on your practice setting, it's actually not too bad. I have a private practice and do some part-time hospital work, so I can flex my schedule pretty well in order to fit the classes in. I've done it as a "non-degree-seeking student" at a local university since I really didn't want a second bachelors.

good luck!
 
With a family, I hope you consult your spouse before making the decision. It is not just only you that would be affected by your choice. You are looking at about 9-10 years of education (2 years for pre-med courses, 4 years for medical school and 3-4 more years of residency). If you wise to do a fellowship, that would add more years to your training as well. On top of this, there's a massive student loan that you'd have to worry about. Regardless of your PhD, you still need to complete all prerequisites and the MCAT in order to qualify for med schools.

My wife is completely supportive of my decision or at least the idea of going back to school. I'm not too concerned about the student loan debt since I actually make decent money now and as a practicing psychologist, I only need to work 15-20 hours/week to be totally fine, money-wise. It'd be a stretch while in school, to be sure, but I've got no doubt I could swing it. I'm sure that I could swing a case load of 5-7 patients while still doing fine in school. That would be sufficient to pay for my student expenses. (How much is med school these days?!?)

I'm still in the pre-completative stages of this process but I really love the feedback I'm getting. I'll have to look up those pre-reqs (anyone got a link? google's not my friend tonight). Thanks for the posts. Keep 'em coming!

edit: Having read through Qof's thread, I realize that some more explanation is needed. I spent my internship (required for a PhD in psychology) at the Duke University Medical Center in the department of psychiatry, as well as 2 years post-doctoral work in the med center. The psychiatrists there know me, or at least of me (they refer patients to me all the time), so my PhD is at least medically relevant. I don't know if that matters to this discussion but I thought I'd add it just in case.
 
My wife is completely supportive of my decision or at least the idea of going back to school. I'm not too concerned about the student loan debt since I actually make decent money now and as a practicing psychologist, I only need to work 15-20 hours/week to be totally fine, money-wise. It'd be a stretch while in school, to be sure, but I've got no doubt I could swing it. I'm sure that I could swing a case load of 5-7 patients while still doing fine in school. That would be sufficient to pay for my student expenses. (How much is med school these days?!?)

I'm still in the pre-completative stages of this process but I really love the feedback I'm getting. I'll have to look up those MCAT requirements. Thanks for the posts. Keep 'em coming!
If you're talking about working part time while doing your pre-reqs, it's totally doable. If you're talking about working while going to med school, don't count on it. Most people cannot work, even part time, during medical school and still hope to "do fine."

Medical school is *very* expensive. Many people take out loans that run up into the six figure range. You could realistically have to borrow anywhere from $100k to $200k, unless you are A) independently wealthy (or your wife is!), B) you are lucky enough to qualify for a merit scholarship or significant need-based aid, or C) you live in a state like TX that has majorly cheap tuition. Even in TX, you'll wind up having to borrow around $80k, assuming you pay for it all with loans. On the bright side, if your wife works while you're in school, you won't have to borrow for living expenses, and that will save you about $50k to $80k right there.

Edit: Just saw you said you're from NC. If you're lucky, you'll get into UNC. Duke costs a fortune. They do award scholarships to a few lucky folks though, so I'd still apply there if you have strong stats. You might consider adding ECU to your list also.
 
I just finished my PhD this year and I will be attending GW in the fall. PM me if you have any questions. :)
 
I just got done looking at pre-med reqs for UNC. Looks like I've got 2.5 semesters worth of stuff to take. I could finish it in 2 semesters and a summer. Depending on how long my credits "last", it could be 2 semesters total. I took both intro bio and first semester organic and inorganic chemistry while I was there. I did well in 2 of those and got a B- in organic. Even if that were good enough (which I'm sure it's not), I'd want to retake organic because I don't remember a lick of it.

I just filled out UNC's continuing ed application and I'm mailing it in tomorrow. I haven't made a decision yet, but I want to get all my ducks in a row just in case I decide to do it. Thanks again for the insights.

Q re: volunteerng: What's the deal with this? I work in a medical field; do I still need to volunteer?
 
I just got done looking at pre-med reqs for UNC. Looks like I've got 2.5 semesters worth of stuff to take. I could finish it in 2 semesters and a summer. Depending on how long my credits "last", it could be 2 semesters total. I took both intro bio and first semester organic and inorganic chemistry while I was there. I did well in 2 of those and got a B- in organic. Even if that were good enough (which I'm sure it's not), I'd want to retake organic because I don't remember a lick of it.

I just filled out UNC's continuing ed application and I'm mailing it in tomorrow. I haven't made a decision yet, but I want to get all my ducks in a row just in case I decide to do it. Thanks again for the insights.

Q re: volunteerng: What's the deal with this? I work in a medical field; do I still need to volunteer?
You don't have to do ANYTHING short of taking the four pre-reqs (bio, gen chem, organic, and physics, one year each with lab) and the MCAT. Most successful applicants to MD programs do participate in significant community service activities, often several of them. Your call here.
 
I just got done looking at pre-med reqs for UNC. Looks like I've got 2.5 semesters worth of stuff to take. I could finish it in 2 semesters and a summer. Depending on how long my credits "last", it could be 2 semesters total. I took both intro bio and first semester organic and inorganic chemistry while I was there. I did well in 2 of those and got a B- in organic. Even if that were good enough (which I'm sure it's not), I'd want to retake organic because I don't remember a lick of it.

Some tips from a Phud who is just finishing a post-bacc and taking the MCAT in a couple of weeks:

- Start slowly; do one course and get used to studying again. General Chemistry or Physics is a good place to start. When I got started, I found that because I just hadn't studied like this in such a long time and because I hadn't taken exams like these in such a long time, my grades suffered a little (not much, but an A- isn't an A when you're trying to impress with your GPA - 3.7 is spitting distance from that magical 3.6 screening cut-off). You have to learn to memorise again, not think around problems too much and not rely on your research skills. Multiple choice questions are the bane of our lives, my friend :( No innovation, no papers to read, no literature to search, no collaboration, just simple studying and memorisation for closed-book exams.

- Don't believe that because you did the courses before, you know them well enough today and that will see you through with a little studying. Doing the courses again really does teach you just how much you have forgotten/mis-remembered. Don't re-take organic chemistry again before general chemistry - otherwise you'll find out just how many little things you have forgotten about and you will struggle to keep up. It's not a reflection on you; we just forget things like the Henderson-Hasselbach equation over time. The benefit of doing everything again, however, is that it prepares you really well for the MCAT.

- For volunteering, find some research to do that takes advantage of your background or volunteer position for which you are suited. Don't drop everything and push around wheelchairs for a day each week. It's completely not in keeping with your skills and looks like you are just filling your CV. Get involved with a community mental health project, or even start one. Ideally, check out the UNC/Duke Med web sites and find someone who might be willing to do it with you; maybe even some med students...! Make the most of who you are and contribute positively to your community. That's what the medical admissions folk are looking for, and it's good for the soul :)

- Shadow some doctors. It takes some time to arrange, but if you can, it exposes you to their lifestyle and challenges. Medical school will have you training with surgeons, PCPs, ER docs and radiologists. You should show that you know what you are letting yourself in for. It's a research project :) iow, do a 'feasibility study'.

- "I'm thinking about going to med school to help in my quest to better help my patients. " - Good answer to the eventual "Why medicine?" question. Work out what this means, specifically, and write that out. How will it help? Have you encountered situations in your practice that have led you to believe that your patients would benefit from more medical skill? Will you even serve the same patients afterwards? It's all part of the big "Why change your life to this?" question.

I hope that helps a little bit... Be assured that it really can be done; just take care not to hamstring yourself. If you get it right, you can be stronger than most of the candidates in the field. Remember that your PhD is a valuable asset. Use it in the next year to show that you intend to keep using it and that you can make a difference with it, medically.

Good luck!
 
DrPhud and Qof,

Thanks for your spectacular advice. I've found it to be very encouraging and sobering all at the same time! The one thing I have trouble reconciling is the volunteering on research projects with my degree. It seems to me that a PhD volunteering for a research project screams "CV padding!!" The shadowing idea is a good one but I'm a professional in the mental health field already. Don't get me wrong - I've got no illusions that that adequately prepares me for med school - but again I worry about it being mis-perceived by the committee, as well as by my peers (i.e., the psychiatrists with whom I work and who I'd like to see defer to my judgment on psychological treatment matters).

Fortunately, I've been out of school for only a few years (since 2004) so being a student again shouldn't be that hard. My licensure exam was all multiple choice :thumbdown:, so I'm familiar with those too.

Finally, do I really need to take general chemistry again? I didn't take it the first time through college - got a 5 on the AP chem exam. And it would really screw up my timeline to have to take it again. I was looking at 2 years and a summer to finish up the pre-reqs and that would put me in line to start August 09 if things work out. One more course would set me over the edge, time wise..... Decisions decisions....

I'm definitely going forward with this, though. Registering for Fall 07 once I get my materials! Woo hoo!
 
I finished my Ph.D. in clinical psychology 2 years ago....and after finishing my 1 year internship decided to enter medical school. After doing alot of research on schools available, I decided to enter a Caribbean medical school. I was a double major in psych. and medicine in college though...so i had all the classes. One reason I didnt attend medical school in the states was because I didnt want to wait around to take the Mcat, which was only offered 2 times a year in the states...and on top of that....I had not taken any classes in hard science for years. So I would be looking at spending alot of time studying for the MCAT.

Anyways, I just finished my 2 years of basic sciences, and just moved back to the states :). I am currently studying for the USMLE Step I and will be taking it very soon. People always ask me why I went back to school....and sometimes it was even hard justifying it to myself, especially because I was leaving the country to do it. You will have hurdles to overcome and times where you question the decisions you make. If it is something you really want, then dont hesitate because the "what ifs" are not fun to live with.
 
DrPhud and Qof,

Thanks for your spectacular advice. I've found it to be very encouraging and sobering all at the same time! The one thing I have trouble reconciling is the volunteering on research projects with my degree. It seems to me that a PhD volunteering for a research project screams "CV padding!!" The shadowing idea is a good one but I'm a professional in the mental health field already. Don't get me wrong - I've got no illusions that that adequately prepares me for med school - but again I worry about it being mis-perceived by the committee, as well as by my peers (i.e., the psychiatrists with whom I work and who I'd like to see defer to my judgment on psychological treatment matters).

Fortunately, I've been out of school for only a few years (since 2004) so being a student again shouldn't be that hard. My licensure exam was all multiple choice :thumbdown:, so I'm familiar with those too.

Finally, do I really need to take general chemistry again? I didn't take it the first time through college - got a 5 on the AP chem exam. And it would really screw up my timeline to have to take it again. I was looking at 2 years and a summer to finish up the pre-reqs and that would put me in line to start August 09 if things work out. One more course would set me over the edge, time wise..... Decisions decisions....

I'm definitely going forward with this, though. Registering for Fall 07 once I get my materials! Woo hoo!
That's a tough one - AP classes are accepted by some schools but, as a non-traditional applicat who needs to do well on the MCAT, I think you'd be doing yourself an injustice by not taking the formal chemistry prerequisite with lab. Keep in mind that all U.S. medical schools without exception want 6-8 credits with lab in: chemistry, organic chemistry, physics, biology. Do you have all of those? If it takes a year longer to start, it's time well-spent.

I am also PhD-to-MD (just finished MSII). The advice you have been given is sound. You are generally treated like any other applicant in that your GPA from college and MCAT score must get the attention of the admissions committee. Without that, it's not impossible to gain admission, but it really is an uphill battle. From my own humble experience, wonderful experiences and fellowships at nice institutions don't matter as much as one might expect. Also, the admissions office is a very busy place that rarely caters to any applicant. Even if a candidate is known at a school, 7000 applications can really hide one application and you still have to convince 10-25 members of the admissions committee to get an offer - most, if not all of them, won't ever meet you. It may even go against you. I've seen an admissions office just hate the fact that an applicant has 'clout' in the building that can sometimes be a little over-bearing to folks in the admissions office. Not to discourage you - but it's best to be candid and not rely on connections. I've seen many, many applicants disappointed by this if it leads to a rejection if they compile a weaker application after relying too heavily on connections and/or under-estimating the competition.

Volunteering for research projects is not essential. It will be essential, however, that you show the admissions committee that you have spent some time around several physicians to see what goes on outside of psychiatry. There's nothing more off-putting to an adcom member than tunnel vision - even though most of the time it's unintentional. I interview applicants to medical school and I'm always surprised when I see candidates who are great on paper and in the interview fair very poorly at the admissions committee meeting simply because they have not shown that they genuinely know what they are getting into by spending some time around physicians shadowing or volunteering. I even saw one applicant with great grades from a great school, a MCAT score >38, and wonderful voluntary activities get rejected post-interview - after great evaluations from the faculty interviewer and myself. Guess what the committee couldn't look past? The fact that there was no attempt to spend time around medical professionals. The committee might make the argument that even though you intend to train in psychiatry, you could change your mind and you'll definitely need to rotate through all of the other specialties as a medical student. Maybe all of the above might give you something else to consider, too.

You sound like grade-A material, and I'll bet you get accepted. ;) Good luck!
 
That's a tough one - AP classes are accepted by some schools but, as a non-traditional applicat who needs to do well on the MCAT, I think you'd be doing yourself an injustice by not taking the formal chemistry prerequisite with lab. Keep in mind that all U.S. medical schools without exception want 6-8 credits with lab in: chemistry, organic chemistry, physics, biology. Do you have all of those? If it takes a year longer to start, it's time well-spent.
I don't have bio and physics at all (well, 4 bio hours because I placed out intro when I was a freshman but I plan on taking intro again) and I've got quite a few chem hours.

I was a chem major for a year and a half and I was one course away from completing a minor in chem (IOW, I just needed PChem). I think I'll spend the summer refreshing my memory on general chemistry since it's been some time since my chemistry classes. Back in the day, I was quite the chem wiz and I really enjoyed it :). My concern is what you mention WRT to AP classes being accepted. The 2 chem classes I need, first and second semester organic, don't have labs. Although, now that I think about it, I did take a couple other classes with chem labs, so I should be good on that front.

Once I enroll, I'll be sure to speak to an advisor. I figure I'm 31 now, one more year of school won't kill me. ;)

Volunteering for research projects is not essential. It will be essential, however, that you show the admissions committee that you have spent some time around several physicians to see what goes on outside of psychiatry. There's nothing more off-putting to an adcom member than tunnel vision - even though most of the time it's unintentional.
This is something I've thought about quite a bit. Mostly because I'm not sure that psychiatry is where I want to end up. I feel like I've got all the training I could need to take care of the therapy part of a psychiatrist's job and there are so many other specialties that can get the prescription part of things. The shadowing thing will be helpful to give me some guidance here. I'll look into it. :)

When I said that I wanted be able to help my patients better, I was thinking of several patients in particular who don't have just psychological problems but also health problems. If you're familiar with the DSM, it'd be Axis III stuff. I'm out of my element in trying to help them deal with these issues. I don't know *what* they're dealing with, so I can't help them and that frustrates me immensely.

Once I left Duke at the conclusion of my post-doc, I decided that I'd devote a portion of my clinical time to pro bono clients. These are clients who are "working poor". I get no financial benefit from seeing them but I think it's part of my "clinical duty" to serve those who are left in the gaps of the healthcare system. I plan on capitalizing this as much as possible. :laugh:

You sound like grade-A material, and I'll bet you get accepted. ;) Good luck!
Thanks! I plan on acing my classes and getting my math/science GPA to a 3.8. :p Then it'll be an easier decision for the admissions committee. They've already got hard jobs, so I'll try to make it easier on them. :laugh:
 
I finished my Ph.D. in clinical psychology 2 years ago....and after finishing my 1 year internship decided to enter medical school. After doing alot of research on schools available, I decided to enter a Caribbean medical school. I was a double major in psych. and medicine in college though...so i had all the classes. One reason I didnt attend medical school in the states was because I didnt want to wait around to take the Mcat, which was only offered 2 times a year in the states...and on top of that....I had not taken any classes in hard science for years. So I would be looking at spending alot of time studying for the MCAT.

Anyways, I just finished my 2 years of basic sciences, and just moved back to the states :). I am currently studying for the USMLE Step I and will be taking it very soon. People always ask me why I went back to school....and sometimes it was even hard justifying it to myself, especially because I was leaving the country to do it. You will have hurdles to overcome and times where you question the decisions you make. If it is something you really want, then dont hesitate because the "what ifs" are not fun to live with.
How has it been? Did your family think you were crazy for doing it? For all of you who were professionals, particularly mental health professionals, has going back to peon status been hard? I can see this being the most difficult intangible for me.
 
How has it been? Did your family think you were crazy for doing it? For all of you who were professionals, particularly mental health professionals, has going back to peon status been hard? I can see this being the most difficult intangible for me.


My family have been the most supportive of anyone in my life. They've been wonderful. The other people who have been surprisingly supportive are the physicians with whom I work. A psychiatrist who refers to my priviate practice is one of my LORs and has given me some great advice. I've gotten "shadowing" in at the hospital where I work- my pediatric attending allows me to sit in on H&Ps and will go over with me what she's doing medically for each pt. My (recent) volunteer experiences have been providing pro bono clinical licensure supervision to a new MSW, starting a bereavement support group, and sitting on a state-wide SW advocacy task force. (I also do sliding scale for several private patients, but I do still get paid.) For me, it was a matter of doing things that fit into my schedule and which utilized the skills/experience which I have which make me somewhat unique as a premed.

I'm hoping to be back to peon status around this time next year. :)
 
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