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Taurus

Paul Revere of Medicine
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How can you send someone who probably was coming of anemic symptoms and bloody or tarry stools home with unstable vitals and don't even both to do a basic CBC? This is the basic mistakes that I all the time coming from these NP's. The vast majority of the time, we physicians catch their mistakes but don't let the patients, the hospital, the state know what could have happened if we didn't. These types of cases will become more and more common in the future as NP/DNP's fight for more scope and independence. The lives of our patients are at increased risk. We need to shut down these clowns. Educate your patients and encourage them to seek legal advice when you see gross malpractice like this.

Family settles lawsuit with Heartland

A family and Heartland Regional Medical Center avoided a jury trial in a wrongful death lawsuit this week.

The parties settled on a $725,000 judgment Monday in Buchanan County Circuit Court. The lawsuit accused medical malpractice by Heartland’s Urgent Care Clinic, Heartland Health and James Weaver, a nurse practitioner, in the death of Timothy Allen Weber.

Mr. Weber’s wife, Michele Weber, his parents and his three children were plaintiffs in the suit, filed in March 2009. The case was set for a jury trial this week. The parties reached a settlement and the case was dismissed on May 17.

According to court documents, Mr. Weber went to the clinic at 1115 N. Belt Highway around 10:35 a.m. on April 14, 2008.

With valid complaints and ailments, he was discharged about two hours later without normal vital signs and no testing or treatment for gastrointestinal bleeding, which led to his death.

It is also reported that he was never examined by a physician while at the facility.

Mrs. Weber found her husband at their home approximately four or five hours after his discharge from the Urgent Care Clinic.

He was pronounced dead at 5:40 p.m. at Heartland’s emergency room.

An autopsy determined the cause of death to be hemorrhagic gastritis.

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Don't you mean "Doctor" James Weaver, NP-Superstar? :thumbup:
 
How can you send someone who probably was coming of anemic symptoms and bloody or tarry stools home with unstable vitals and don't even both to do a basic CBC?

Because in the outpatient clinic/urgent care world, there is no in-house CBC machine. In the old days, in-house labs were available & billable, but insurance companies won't pay for a lab unless it's through a contract provider (typically Quest or Labcorp). Even a STAT CBC in the outpatient world would've taken anywhere between 4 hours & 12 hours to get results back.

This is why training matters, because rotating through various settings (ICU, hospital, ED, outpatient clinic, home visit) allow you to see the spectrum of a disease & how to manage it appropriately in various environments with it's technological limitations.

So even if a CBC was not available in a timely fashion, the telling tale will be what the story was (& whether it would've taken a reasonable outpatient doctor there), what the red flags were, whether the vital signs were taken in consideration, whether the NP considered looking at supine HR & orthostatics, whether the NP did a guiac, & whether the NP documented a need for higher level of care (i.e. ED or direct admission). These are things one can do with very little technology.

Be interested to hear how this case unfolds, but this is a common primary care/urgent care/ER scenario.
 
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Oops, just re-read the post: it says the case was settled, so we'll never know what really happened.
 
Tragic.

Just one more case/death/lawsuit that highlights what seperates an attending from an NP.

An NP may have seen an oddly presenting case of gastritis. Maybe he took too much Advil that day...

An astute attending could have easily pictured a peptic ulcer chewing closer and closer to what was probably his left gastric artery.

The difference in these two lines of thinking is the result of tens of thousands of hours of learning and refining clinical reasoning, pathophisiology, even basic anatomy and histology that starts from day 1 of medical school.

To accept anything less is an injustice.

ps

Gotta love some of the comments from nurses on the article:

"I know several NP's and PA's that are better than many of MD's i have worked with, the degree isn't always the best indicator of skill. The patient was discharged with normal vial signs, One big symptom of bleeding is increased pulse, its also an indicator of the need of further testing. and guess what.... medicine is an art,"

:mad:
 
The saddest part:

This voluntary settlement of $725,000 is probably less than the money the hospital administrators saved by hiring a fleet of NPs vs board certified Physicians.

Without the financial incentive to switch to MDs, this death is poised to become an inconvenient tax write off.
 
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That nurse was pwned a few times in the comments section. Someone emailed Dr Keith Ablow from Fox an article about a CRNA killing a patient last week (in the gas forums), since he was the MD who wrote the article bashing the DNP movement. Could be a valid idea for this article as well. Definitely don't want to trivialize anyone's grief or "gloat," but it's important to stop this thing before these cases become more and more common.
 
what's sad is that the NP didn't at least refer him to the ER in the event of unstable vitals, rather than act like they know better or that everything is under control. That's just basic knowledge and should be even for nurses or NP's. They see emergencies and call the doctor asap, so they should do just that in the event of any emergency they can't handle.
 
Hate to say it, but I could see an MD doing this too if they're not in a field used to dealing with horrific GI bleed outcomes for years on end. I think that it is the exception both for an MD and an NP to miss this sort of thing.

So, I don't know that this shows that NPs<MDs, but you know what? doesn't matter. I'm glad the NP wasn't any more protected than an MD would have been. If they want to practice and they make mistakes, they need to get sued same as us. And if the care they provide is really subpar (meaning they don't know when to upgrade the care the person receives to someone with greater training), then they can have the consequences.
 
I could see an MD who was in, for example, Psychiatry not knowing how to deal with GI bleed, but I'm quite skeptical that the psychiatrist would just let the guy go home. That's the point. So, no, I don't see an MD doing this. Not to say that MDs don't miss stuff or people don't die under the care of an MD. Just that something this basic wouldn't be missed, it would at least be brought to the attention of someone qualified to take care of it.
 
I can see a physician who isn't acutely aware of what can happen with a GI bleed or who hasn't seen one in ages not including this in their differential. What I can't see a physician doing is sending an unstable patient or one with abnormal vital signs home and not referring them to an ED where further work-up can ensue.

It wasn't until I was out in practice that I became aware that these Urgent Care places don't even have the capability to draw stat labs. I became aware when a patient of mine called with what sounded like a post-op infection and told me what "workup" she got at a local Urgent Care (ie, none) - fortunately, they referred her to an ED.

I see this as a failure to recognize when a patient's needs exceed what you or your facility can offer them. There are physicians who play cowboy and try to function outside of their scope of training, but its pretty unusual in these settings (ie, discounting certain specialties trying to do surgery, etc.), IMHO. Most nurses and PAs I see err on the conservative side (ie, calling 99.5 a trending fever, worried about HR in the 90s, etc.). I wonder if Mr. Weaver will be dropped by his malpractice provider (since NPs here pay about $1000 per year...that type of settlement would take a LOT of NPs to make up his use of the fund).
 
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Yeah, that's the actual problem. Now that this "Doctor" Nurse got tagged with this, the result will simply be CYA overcalls where people are sent to see physicians for no reason. It's like in the ER. Half the time it's like they let someone sick languish down there for sixteen hours. Then they get yelled at and next thing you know you're getting called for patients while they're still in the parking lot and people are looking out the windows at them with binoculars. Then they get yelled at for that and then it's a compromise where some third-party like IM is roped into the entire situation and they are the ones who place the proper consult (or not). :cool:
 
I wonder if Mr. Weaver will be dropped by his malpractice provider (since NPs here pay about $1000 per year...that type of settlement would take a LOT of NPs to make up his use of the fund).

That's the idea. ;) The biggest and most effective deterrents to scope creep are lawsuits, ridiculously high insurance premiums, and institutional policies because of bad outcomes like this. Would anybody be surprised now if this particular institution requires that every patient must now be seen by a physician before discharge? The more scope and autonomy that NP's get, the more types of cases like this will occur. This is bad for patients, but it is necessary so that more cases like this gets recorded and reviewed when it comes to policy-making.
 
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That's the idea. ;) The biggest and most effective deterrents to scope creep are lawsuits, ridiculously high insurance premiums, and institutional policies because of bad outcomes like this. Would anybody be surprised now if this particular institution requires that every patient must now be seen by a physician before discharge? The more scope and autonomy that NP's get, the more types of cases like this will occur. This is bad for patients, but it is necessary so that more cases like this gets recorded and reviewed when it comes to policy-making.

Absolutely. If you are practicing medicine (bad or good), you have to accept the consequences which means increased responsibility, increased risk of lawsuits and increased premiums. I would be fairly certain that this institution will now have new systems in place so that it never happens again.

Like they say, you have to crack a few eggs to make an omelet. Unfortunately, more people are going to be hurt until the public realizes that the government plan (for them - not for the members of congress) is lower prices as a function of less education, less quality. The real danger, as evidenced by comments like, "I know nurses that are better than some doctors" is that they don't know what they don't know.

As you note scope creep will stop when those who want to practice medicine get all the "perks" that come with it. Your NP/PA wants independence? Then they get to take call (ie, not just work 8 to 5), they get to be sued, pay more malpractice premiums, do all the paperwork, kiss referring physician arse, etc.

Interestingly when it comes to their own healthcare, most nurses I know want an MD/DO. Just saw a patient last week, who's mother is an L&D nurse at one of the hospitals I have privileges at. She immediately piped up that she would refuse to go to hospital X because the OR is staffed with CRNAs. I explained to her that I do not have privileges at that hospital, partly because of that reason. Double standard?
 
I could see an MD who was in, for example, Psychiatry not knowing how to deal with GI bleed, but I'm quite skeptical that the psychiatrist would just let the guy go home. That's the point. So, no, I don't see an MD doing this. Not to say that MDs don't miss stuff or people don't die under the care of an MD. Just that something this basic wouldn't be missed, it would at least be brought to the attention of someone qualified to take care of it.

Interesting you mention psych, I had minor intestinal bleeding recently and was seen by a psych resident in the ER. It was him, I believe, that suggested the supine HR and orthostatics.
 
I could see an MD who was in, for example, Psychiatry not knowing how to deal with GI bleed, but I'm quite skeptical that the psychiatrist would just let the guy go home. That's the point. So, no, I don't see an MD doing this. Not to say that MDs don't miss stuff or people don't die under the care of an MD. Just that something this basic wouldn't be missed, it would at least be brought to the attention of someone qualified to take care of it.

As someone who is going into psych, I agree that even psychiatrists should know enough medicine to recognize someone with a potentially life threatening problem since many times psychiatrists are the only doctors interacting with their severely mentally ill patients. I'd be very embarrassed for my future profession if a psychiatrist had allowed this kind of mistake to occur.
 
As someone who is going into psych, I agree that even psychiatrists should know enough medicine to recognize someone with a potentially life threatening problem since many times psychiatrists are the only doctors interacting with their severely mentally ill patients. I'd be very embarrassed for my future profession if a psychiatrist had allowed this kind of mistake to occur.

50yo man with p/w "epigastric pain, and just feeling off, I'm not sure why, I just don't feel myself. Feelng pretty weak for the last day or two. Been drinking plenty of fluids. But I've been crapping up some really smelly ****". +sick contacts with recent stomach bug. T37.3 P96 R20 BP 110/75. Normal orthostatics. Physical Exam epigastric tenderness. PMH: htn. Meds: on a B-Blocker

Tell me that's not easy to blow past if you're not careful with your history and exam, and in a setting without laboratory testing? And yes, that guy has 3 vitals that are not within normal limits. An astute clinician knows to probe a bit further and check out that stool and to send to ED for further testing. But I don't care what field you're in, there are gonna be people who are gonna miss it. NPs more than docs sure, but I think it's silly to look at this case at face value and think it's something basic that a doc couldn't miss based on history and physical alone.
 
This is more excuse-making in order to make everyone feel good about themselves. Hey, if it's "understandable" that a nurse would miss that stuff and MDs could miss it, too, then the hell with standards! I don't even know why we take exams, since anything you miss you just go "hey, I bet some other MD would miss it, too!" And then everyone just nods and goes "good point, my bad."

:rolleyes:

Maybe if someone "blows by" a patient like that, they shouldn't be seeing the patient. And maybe that also explains why nurses can't pass a dumbed-down version of Step 3. They're too busy looking out the window at the squirrels and going, "yeah, yeah, no problem, Mr. Smith."
 
How can you send someone who probably was coming of anemic symptoms and bloody or tarry stools home with unstable vitals and don't even both to do a basic CBC? This is the basic mistakes that I all the time coming from these NP's. The vast majority of the time, we physicians catch their mistakes but don't let the patients, the hospital, the state know what could have happened if we didn't. These types of cases will become more and more common in the future as NP/DNP's fight for more scope and independence. The lives of our patients are at increased risk. We need to shut down these clowns. Educate your patients and encourage them to seek legal advice when you see gross malpractice like this.
Family settles lawsuit with Heartland

A family and Heartland Regional Medical Center avoided a jury trial in a wrongful death lawsuit this week.

The parties settled on a $725,000 judgment Monday in Buchanan County Circuit Court. The lawsuit accused medical malpractice by Heartland’s Urgent Care Clinic, Heartland Health and James Weaver, a nurse practitioner, in the death of Timothy Allen Weber.

Mr. Weber’s wife, Michele Weber, his parents and his three children were plaintiffs in the suit, filed in March 2009. The case was set for a jury trial this week. The parties reached a settlement and the case was dismissed on May 17.

According to court documents, Mr. Weber went to the clinic at 1115 N. Belt Highway around 10:35 a.m. on April 14, 2008.

With valid complaints and ailments, he was discharged about two hours later without normal vital signs and no testing or treatment for gastrointestinal bleeding, which led to his death.

It is also reported that he was never examined by a physician while at the facility.

Mrs. Weber found her husband at their home approximately four or five hours after his discharge from the Urgent Care Clinic.

He was pronounced dead at 5:40 p.m. at Heartland’s emergency room.

An autopsy determined the cause of death to be hemorrhagic gastritis.



I wonder if the plaintiff knew he was seeing a NP?

Hope the Healthcare Truth and Transparency Act passessm which -- surprisingly -- is NOT supported by the nurses.

http://www.nursingworld.org/MainMenuCategories/ANAPoliticalPower/Federal/Issues/Healthcare.aspx
 
Absolutely. If you are practicing medicine (bad or good), you have to accept the consequences which means increased responsibility, increased risk of lawsuits and increased premiums. I would be fairly certain that this institution will now have new systems in place so that it never happens again.

Like they say, you have to crack a few eggs to make an omelet. Unfortunately, more people are going to be hurt until the public realizes that the government plan (for them - not for the members of congress) is lower prices as a function of less education, less quality. The real danger, as evidenced by comments like, "I know nurses that are better than some doctors" is that they don't know what they don't know.

As you note scope creep will stop when those who want to practice medicine get all the "perks" that come with it. Your NP/PA wants independence? Then they get to take call (ie, not just work 8 to 5), they get to be sued, pay more malpractice premiums, do all the paperwork, kiss referring physician arse, etc.

Interestingly when it comes to their own healthcare, most nurses I know want an MD/DO. Just saw a patient last week, who's mother is an L&D nurse at one of the hospitals I have privileges at. She immediately piped up that she would refuse to go to hospital X because the OR is staffed with CRNAs. I explained to her that I do not have privileges at that hospital, partly because of that reason. Double standard?


+1.

My wife is a PICU fellow, and got a bitc*y comment by one of the PICU NP's when she wouldnt take her sign out at 3 pm so the NP could catch the bus.
 
Was it the short bus? :D Because you know those come early.
 
Maybe if someone "blows by" a patient like that, they shouldn't be seeing the patient. And maybe that also explains why nurses can't pass a dumbed-down version of Step 3. They're too busy looking out the window at the squirrels and going, "yeah, yeah, no problem, Mr. Smith."

if you're gonna blow by my point like that, maybe you shouldn't be arguing against it since you're agreeing with it. Malpactice happens. Let them suffer malpractice and show who should and who shouldn't treat patients. Some docs will be outta luck as always and plenty more lower lvl independent clinicians will be **** outta luck too. Just don't act like it's black and white cause you will get burned. You say keep em away? I say let em come. The ones who should run will be running soon enough.
 
if you're gonna blow by my point like that, maybe you shouldn't be arguing against it since you're agreeing with it. Malpactice happens. Let them suffer malpractice and show who should and who shouldn't treat patients. Some docs will be outta luck as always and plenty more lower lvl independent clinicians will be **** outta luck too. Just don't act like it's black and white cause you will get burned. You say keep em away? I say let em come. The ones who should run will be running soon enough.

The problem with the "let them try" mentality is that they will (and already are) which doesn't bode well for patient care. How many of these cases do we need to see before we stop and think "maybe these people shouldn't be practicing medicine"? Kind of seems silly to purposefully endanger people to make a political point, doesn't it?
 
1997. Within 30 minutes of being seen by a physician in a doc-in-a-box clinic who did everything except a simple DRE, I was lying on the floor of my house having passed out three times after trying to stand up. Nice paramedics got me to the ER where my BP was 70 even with the paramedic fluid intervention. Gastro doc put his cold stethoscope on me and sent me into a rigor I still remember today. However, that's ok as his gastroscopy saved my bleeding self.

If only the first doctor had stuck his finger up my ass...
 
1997. Within 30 minutes of being seen by a physician in a doc-in-a-box clinic who did everything except a simple DRE, I was lying on the floor of my house having passed out three times after trying to stand up. Nice paramedics got me to the ER where my BP was 70 even with the paramedic fluid intervention. Gastro doc put his cold stethoscope on me and sent me into a rigor I still remember today. However, that's ok as his gastroscopy saved my bleeding self.

If only the first doctor had stuck his finger up my ass...

Was that before or after you realized that you were not able to heal the Egyptian lady 2,000 years ago?
 
if you're gonna blow by my point like that, maybe you shouldn't be arguing against it since you're agreeing with it. Malpactice happens. Let them suffer malpractice and show who should and who shouldn't treat patients. Some docs will be outta luck as always and plenty more lower lvl independent clinicians will be **** outta luck too. Just don't act like it's black and white cause you will get burned. You say keep em away? I say let em come. The ones who should run will be running soon enough.

Uh, no. I don't mind subjecting ***** patients who "prefer" NPs to MDs to that kind of malpractice, don't get me wrong. I'd giggle a whole lot, actually. But first, you said that an MD could make that mistake, too, and that was what I took issue with. I'm not going to play "we both have faults" and pretend that an MD could make the same mistake as an NP because that implies that they are the same. And second of all, your plan only enriches the lawyers, who suck major ding-dong. Someone needs to kill the lawyers. By the way, that's not a joke.
 
Everyone keeps mentioning the abnormal vital signs. How do we know the patient was tachycardic and/or hypotensive?

For all we know, the abnormal vital signs could have been hypertension.

We're all picturing this gravely ill upper GI bleed with a BP of 80/50 that was sent home. Without reviewing the actual chart, we may be making assumptions based on incorrect information.
 
Everyone keeps mentioning the abnormal vital signs. How do we know the patient was tachycardic and/or hypotensive?

For all we know, the abnormal vital signs could have been hypertension.

We're all picturing this gravely ill upper GI bleed with a BP of 80/50 that was sent home. Without reviewing the actual chart, we may be making assumptions based on incorrect information.

Would you discharge home with valid complaints and abnormal vitals without further testing?

With valid complaints and ailments, he was discharged about two hours later without normal vital signs and no testing or treatment for gastrointestinal bleeding, which led to his death.​

If the encounter was that benign, why did they settle for $725k? There was obvious malpractice on the part of the NP that lead to the death.

Interestingly, James Weaver is no longer working at Heartland.

http://www.heartlandprimarycarekc.com/ourstaff/
 
I have no doubt that the NP committed malpractice in this case. However, this doesn't really shed any light on the current NP situation, because no one has shown that the NP's lack of training contributed to the malpractice. In fact, by definition of malpractice, the nurse had to have violated his training in his actions. I'm fairly certain that NP's are trained to workup GI bleeds if indicated by history and physical.

You will find plenty of equally egregious malpractice by physicians in the newspapers. It doesn't mean anything. Anecdotal accounts are useless. Show me that NP's commit malpractice more often or are inadequately trained to recognize life threatening illnesses. Then we can talk.
 
Anecdotal accounts are useless. Show me that NP's commit malpractice more often or are inadequately trained to recognize life threatening illnesses. Then we can talk.

This is something I would really like to see. I want a well-designed, randomized, double-blind, multi-centered, highly powered study that compares the outcomes of physicians vs. non-physicians. I would expect to see no differences in some areas and significant differences in others. As the nurses like to point out, there are no differences in physicians vs non-physicians for treating UTI's. However, you can't extrapolate their performance in managing UTI's to all of medicine, which is what they are implying and want everyone to believe. I would expect to see significant differences in the outcomes and efficient use of resources when it comes to complaints with large and life-threatening differentials such as chest pain, abdominal pain, etc. Not only that, I would expect that an NP with 20 years of experience will perform a lot better than one who just graduated.

In most of those states that allow NP's to have autonomy, freshly graduated NP's with their 700 hours of training has as much scope as physicians, who have at least 17,000 hours by the time they finish residency. These states treat the NP's the same as physicians. How scary is that? :scared: Any study that closely analyzes the differences will mean more regulations and requirements for NP's. Do states now require that NP's must work under supervision for 5 - 10 years and after passing a series of exams before they can work independently? Anything is better than what we have now where a fresh NP can work independently immediately upon graduation in some states. This really is a public safety issue.
 
Show me that NP's commit malpractice more often or are inadequately trained to recognize life threatening illnesses. Then we can talk.

Or alternatively, we can accept your null hypothesis that NPs are as qualified to recognize life threatening illnesses as MDs. And then make you go to NPs for care, since you are of the mindset that they're equal. I'll mark out your burial plot and bring the coffin samples around to your family.
 
I knew this was bound to happen, thanks alot obamacare. I actually believed in his stupid yes we can speech

" yes we can put inadequate people in positions where they F*** with peoples lives all for the sake of a couple of dollars"

"yes we can let BP pollute our oceans" :smuggrin:

I know its going to take many more people dieing before anyone notices, but i feel like its just wrong. But it will be a tad bit amusing when all those smug DNP's get booted out of the system

I also don't think its acceptable for a GP to miss that, as a 3rd year i would have been fried for missing something like that by my attending in family practice. So definetly not acceptable when you are out in pratice to miss it. It does happen, but that is a sign of providing poor healthcare
 
Another lawsuit against a nurse practitioner for substandard care. The NP's like to proclaim that they have tons of studies showing equivalent care. Yet, I have easily found two lawsuits that show substandard care.

Physicians everywhere need to stop training and hiring NP's. If you see a gross case of negligence like this, encourage lawsuits by the victims.

Dad Sues Harvard Over Son's Suicide
Johnny Edwards, 20, Was Given Powerful Drugs by a Nurse Practitioner

By ANNE-MARIE DORNING
BOSTON, Dec. 11, 2009

The knock on John Edwards' door came at 5 a.m., Nov. 30, 2007. Two police officers entered his home in Wellesley, Mass., sat down on the couch and uttered the unthinkable.

"They said, 'Did you have a son that went to Harvard?' I said yes, and they said, 'He passed away.'"

Edwards' son, also named John, had committed suicide.

"You just can't believe it. You can't believe it then or the next day. You can't believe it a month from then. Every morning you wake up and say it's just not possible," said Edwards, his voice breaking.

Two years later, what Edwards does believe is that negligence by Harvard, the nurse practitioner and the supervising physician at the University Health Center caused his death. And Edwards has filed a lawsuit.

The younger Edwards was just 11 days shy of his 20th birthday. He was training for the Boston marathon, working on stem cell research and seemingly thriving during his sophomore year at his first choice college. Edwards had always been an overachiever, logging perfect SAT scores and being named both president and valedictorian of his class at Wellesley High School.

Still, in June 2007, Edwards told his father that he had been to see a counselor at the Harvard University Health Services, saying that he wanted to be able to study as much as his fellow students.

"I said, 'that's great, anything I can do to be supportive, please let me know.'" Edwards offered to meet with his son's counselor, but was told it wasn't necessary.

Edwards maintains in his lawsuit that a nurse practitioner -- not a physician -- was responsible for writing the multiple prescriptions for his son, although her work was overseen by a physician. Johnny Edwards had been prescribed Adderall, Wellbutrin and Prozac.

"It seems like every time he came in there, the answer was to pull out a prescription pad," said Edwards.

In addition, the suit contends that the drugs his son received "are associated with an increase in suicidal thoughts." Edwards said he is still trying to find out why his son was ever prescribed a drug like Adderall. Adderall is usually prescribed for ADHD, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, a condition Johnny Edwards had never been diagnosed with.

In addition, Edwards maintains the Harvard administration has also refused to answer the most basic questions about his son's last days. For example, Edwards wanted to know when his son last used his pass card to get into his labratory. He's still waiting for that answer.

"I wanted to come in and talk to them and find out what happened and share information so that this kind of thing would never happen again. This is an institution of higher learning that sets the standard in our country, if not the world…but they have no interest in any of that," said Edwards.

In response to an inquiry by ABCNews.com Harvard released the following statement.

"We understand how difficult it must be for John Edwards' family to cope with such a tragic loss, but we are confident that the care he received at Harvard University Health Services was thorough and appropriate and he was monitored closely by its physicians and allied health specialists."

While he could not comment directly on John Edwards and has not seen any of his medical records, Paul Doering, a professor of pharmacy at the University of Florida, said that taking Adderall, Wellbutrin and Prozac "didn't sound right" and that the activities of these three drugs "tend to work at cross purposes."

In addition, Doering added that, although the practice of nurse practitioners prescribing drugs is legal in most states, he would "wonder what the person's background and training was."

Colleges Have Been Questioned About Medical Care for Students

This isn't the first time college health centers have come under fire for the standard of care they provide to students. In 1993, Northeastern University's Health Clinic was sued by the parents of a student after she died of leukemia. The student went for repeated visits to the campus health center and was told she had the flu. At trial, testimony showed that nurses, not doctors, were allowed to diagnose patients on the weekends. Northeastern was found not liable.

After Seung-Hui Cho went on a shooting rampage at Virginia Tech in 2007, killing 27 students and five faculty members, the college mental health center was criticized for failing to monitor or take action against Cho, who many had identified as being clearly disturbed.

In 2000, after multiple suicides at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, the university was forced to restructure its mental health services.

It's these kinds of cases that make parents like John Edwards furious. "What level of care is given to our kids who go away to school," said Edwards. And, whether a student is 20 minutes away at a local college or 20 hours away, it can be almost impossible to get any information at all.

Courtney Knowles of the JED Foundation, a nonprofit foundation dedicated to reducing college suicides, said parents are often angry and confused at the lack of information afforded to them.

"When you turn 18, you are an adult. Students receive the same privacy and confidentiality rights that any adult receives," said Knowles.

But that can leave students, many of whom are on their own for the first time in their lives, in the hands of a health center that may or may not be providing the best care.

Chad Henderson, the director of health services for the University of Rhode Island, explained that college health centers vary greatly in terms of size and quality. A small junior college, for example, may only have a nurse practitioner on staff and a physician only available on an on-call basis. Other college health centers may be more akin to first class ambulatory care centers.

At URI, Henderson said, the health center sees 97 percent of patients the same day they call. Although it might take up to two weeks to see a psychiatrist, that time frame is faster than patients in the general population.

Henderson added that the scope of care these health centers are expected to provide has also increased over the years, particularly when it comes to mental health services.

"The whole college health community has changed…students have changed," said Henderson. And yet many college health centers face difficulties because the number of providers has not kept pace with demand. In particular, mental health services are often stretched because there "is a shortage of psychiatrists accepting new patients and there are many more students seeking those services" said Henderson.

In the meantime, Edwards is still seeking answers to what he calls the "mystery" of his son's death as he tries to face another holiday season without him.

"We kind of hand over the keys to our kids in some ways when they go off to college -- with that comes an incredible amount of trust…If Harvard did no wrong, why can't they just answer me. Why can't I know?" asked Edwards.

Now it looks like those questions will have to be answered in a court of law.​
 
Yesterday we referred a patient from the interventional pain clinic to dermatology for what looked like actinic keratosis vs scc. For some reason the patient's nurse practitioner, who he and his wife called his doctor even after we told them she was a NP twice (wtf?), was giving him topical gent. It's scary when an interventional pain clinic has to step in for primary care because of the undertrained nurse playing doctor. What makes it even worse is that not only did she think she was treating an infection, she told him she was giving him gent because it was a fungal infection! I would hope she could at least treat her misdiagnosis correctly.
 
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Yesterday we referred a patient from the interventional pain clinic to dermatology for what looked like actinic keratosis vs scc. For some reason the patient's nurse practitioner, who he and his wife called his doctor even after we told them she was a NP twice (wtf?), was giving him topical gent. It's scary when an interventional pain clinic has to step in for primary care because of the undertrained nurse playing doctor. What makes it even worse is that not only did she think she was treating an infection, she told him she was giving him gent because it was a fungal infection! I would hope she could at least treat her misdiagnosis correctly.

yep i see this a lot, freakin scary. one reason why i refuse any treatment from any nurse practitioner
 
Yesterday we referred a patient from the interventional pain clinic to dermatology for what looked like actinic keratosis vs scc. For some reason the patient's nurse practitioner, who he and his wife called his doctor even after we told them she was a NP twice (wtf?), was giving him topical gent. It's scary when an interventional pain clinic has to step in for primary care because of the undertrained nurse playing doctor. What makes it even worse is that not only did she think she was treating an infection, she told him she was giving him gent because it was a fungal infection! I would hope she could at least treat her misdiagnosis correctly.

I had a derm fellow diagnosis me with scabies when I actually had dyshidrosis so it looks like everyone screws up, doesn't it? Actually I've had better luck with FP docs treating derm problems.
 
Seriously??? Isn't the accident death rate in US hospitals estimated at between 100 and 200k? Don't you think its a little silly to use individual lawsuits and anecdotal evidence as proof that a group of health care professionals offers substandard care?
 
Seriously??? Isn't the accident death rate in US hospitals estimated at between 100 and 200k? Don't you think its a little silly to use individual lawsuits and anecdotal evidence as proof that a group of health care professionals offers substandard care?

An undertrained NP prescribing those kind of drugs is hardly an accident.
 
Seriously??? Isn't the accident death rate in US hospitals estimated at between 100 and 200k? Don't you think its a little silly to use individual lawsuits and anecdotal evidence as proof that a group of health care professionals offers substandard care?

I am all for fighting the DNP movement and stopping NPs from having complete independence with the paucity of education they have, but I have to agree with you.

A single story proves nothing. I am sure someone could show a doctor who did something similar. Neither proves a thing.
 
I had a derm fellow diagnosis me with scabies when I actually had dyshidrosis so it looks like everyone screws up, doesn't it? Actually I've had better luck with FP docs treating derm problems.


Was this before or after you found out that you had trouble healing the Egyptian lady 2,000 years ago?

I am still confused about that one.
 
An undertrained NP prescribing those kind of drugs is hardly an accident.

Let me rephrase, "medical errors". Lots of these deaths happen every year. Singling out one or two NP cases, and using it as evidence to prove MD superiority amounts to mere propaganda.
 
I am all for fighting the DNP movement and stopping NPs from having complete independence with the paucity of education they have, but I have to agree with you.

A single story proves nothing. I am sure someone could show a doctor who did something similar. Neither proves a thing.

Then why are you so opposed to the movement? You must have some statistics showing the inferiority of DNPs to MDs. I fail to see why everyone is so against giving people increased choice in their healthcare decisions. I personally would love to have the ability to go see a reputable NP, who will have a much lower cost of doing business, for certain health related issues. I'm not saying I would always prefer the NP, but I certainly would like to CHOOSE who I'm going to see.
 
Then why are you so opposed to the movement? You must have some statistics showing the inferiority of DNPs to MDs. I fail to see why everyone is so against giving people increased choice in their healthcare decisions. I personally would love to have the ability to go see a reputable NP, who will have a much lower cost of doing business, for certain health related issues. I'm not saying I would always prefer the NP, but I certainly would like to CHOOSE who I'm going to see.
Actually, DNP and MDs are 2 different entities. If DNP are allowed to practice medicine ,then why not allow those with Phd in English or PhDs in anything to practice medicine here so to reduce the cost and relieve shortage in Mds ?? I see there is double standard in the promotion from US government side who only pushing DNP but not others. suspecting there is bribery/corruption going on.
 
Then why are you so opposed to the movement? You must have some statistics showing the inferiority of DNPs to MDs. I fail to see why everyone is so against giving people increased choice in their healthcare decisions. I personally would love to have the ability to go see a reputable NP, who will have a much lower cost of doing business, for certain health related issues. I'm not saying I would always prefer the NP, but I certainly would like to CHOOSE who I'm going to see.
BTW, it will reduce the cost to almost zero if all pts die without going thru any treatment and definitely anyone has the choice of being killed either by no treatment or by harm done by quacks in the markets promoting by healthcare reform.
 
I personally would love to have the ability to go see a reputable NP, who will have a much lower cost of doing business, for certain health related issues. I'm not saying I would always prefer the NP, but I certainly would like to CHOOSE who I'm going to see.

First of all, why choose an undertrained nurse to practice MEDICINE?

Second, DNPs are pushing for equal reimbursements as doctors because they "do the same job, but for less money". If they're paid equally, how do you figure it will save any money?
 
Then why are you so opposed to the movement? You must have some statistics showing the inferiority of DNPs to MDs. I fail to see why everyone is so against giving people increased choice in their healthcare decisions. I personally would love to have the ability to go see a reputable NP, who will have a much lower cost of doing business, for certain health related issues. I'm not saying I would always prefer the NP, but I certainly would like to CHOOSE who I'm going to see.
It's not up to physicians to show that NPs/DNPs provide inferior care. It's up to the NPs/DNPs to show that they provide equivalent care as the current gold standard (ie. physicians).

Think of it in terms of pharmaceuticals. When a new drug comes out, it's not up to the company producing the current gold standard to show that the new drug is inferior. It's up to the company producing the new drug to show that it's equivalent (or superior) to the standard.

There are no well-done studies suggesting NPs/DNPs provide equivalent care as physicians. There are, however, lots of poorly done studies measuring useless outcomes (ie. patient satisfaction) and NPs/DNPs seem to think this proves that they're equivalent to physicians (I could make a very sarcastic comment here considering the NP/DNP curricula has so many stats/research courses in it).
 
First of all, why choose an undertrained nurse to practice MEDICINE?

Second, DNPs are pushing for equal reimbursements as doctors because they "do the same job, but for less money". If they're paid equally, how do you figure it will save any money?

They've already thought of that. They will keep using the cost savings argument, but will claim that their service keeps patients with better management of chronic disease and less trips to the ER, thus saving us money.
 
They've already thought of that. They will keep using the cost savings argument, but will claim that their service keeps patients with better management of chronic disease and less trips to the ER, thus saving us money.

That's where I don't understand, keeping the cost down IS NOT EQUAL TO better management. Those DNPs get lower reimbursement at the cost of human lives, yeah, less trips to ER cuz thier pts died and no more return to office for follow up leading to less office visits. Overall, this saves lots of money. General public needs to understand what they are getting themselves into besides focus on money saving.
Those undertrained DNPs no way can provide better management since they don't have the training.
 
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