PA's making $200K + per year?!

[Ho0v-man]

I'm not trying to justify or bend anything. I present my argument with statistics and actual evidence. You just stated your opinion that PA is settling. That's no difference than someone saying that pursuing MD/DO is throwing your life away. It's all subjective. If you actually read my post I never once said MD/DO school is easier than PA school or that MD/DOs arent more knowledgeable. However, how difficult it is to get into PA vs DO school is up for debate I feel. You're right, not everybody wants to be a physician, not everybody wants to go through the sacrifices. Just because you do doesnt make you better a better or worse person.

I'd like to say, I agree with you 100% on this. If I thought I could have been happy as a PA, I totally would have. It's an awesome career and more power to you. At the end of the day, I knew I wouldn't want to keep running to the SP to ask questions I already knew the answers to or take crap from newly minted docs when I'd been practicing when I'd been in it 20+ years. Because of that, I would have been a terrible PA and thus changed my major.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Yes, prePAs can get in with low GPAs. I've read success stories from applicants with 3.0s but it's not like they dont compensate for that. They compensate with a higher GRE score and probably 10,000 HCE (5 years full time). However, these are rare cases. If you look up any school, the average GPA of accepted students is 3.4-3.5. My school's accepted student's average GPA is 3.7 (on par with some med schools). With that said, since it is an average that means sub 3.2 aren't the norm but the exception.

Perhaps grade replacement is overhyped. I wouldn't know, i just know it exist for DO applicants.

I disagree on how PA has become less competitive. It is certainly more competitive now. Schools that require less HCE compensates by having higher GPA standards and GRE standards usually. My school's average GPA of accepted students is on the higher end but they also doesn't specify any minimum HCE to apply.

The summation of our discussion thus far is "Yes DOs get in with lowish GPAs, but only because they did something great like a high MCAT, a post-bacc, etc." vs. "Yes PAs get in with lowish GPAs, but it's only because they amassed lots of HCE hours or had a high GRE score." (In the DO part you can switch MCAT and gpa around if you like.)

However, you yourself have admitted that acquiring HCE is an easy process and it's common knowledge that the MCAT is MUCH harder than the GRE.

So now the overall point becomes "You can get into DO school or PA school with an unbalanced application by doing other things." But by your own admission, the things you can do to make yourself more competitive for PA school are significantly easier than what you can do for DO.

So why is PA so much more competitive than DO, again?

I'm very much enjoying this discussion.

 

[W19]

Who the heck cares! At the end of the day PAs are assistant. I have been to a lot of big pharma drug talks and I have never seen a PA/NP being the speaker; it's ALWAYS a MD/DO.

 

[Mad Jack]

DO schools had 14,935 applications for 5,464 (36.58%) matriculants in 2012. In comparison, there were 18,510 applicants for PA schools, which had 7,887 matriculants (42.6%).

DO matriculant GPA was 3.43 science/3.60 non-science/ 3.51 cumulative
PA matriculant GPA was 3.45 science/3.54 non-science/ 3.49 cumulative

Average DO MCAT was a 27 (61st percentile)
Average GRE was a 303 (56th percentile)

DO majors tended to be clustered in traditionally hard sciences (bio, chem, physics, etc, which 69% held degrees in).
PA majors tended to be in softer fields:

Overall, I'd say that DO matriculants tend to have similar GPAs, but more difficult majors, and have taken a much more difficult qualifying examination. In addition, more PAs were admitted as a raw percentage of applicants.

This is, of course, based on 2012 matriculant profiles, as the more recent CASPA information is behind a paywall.

http://www2.paeaonline.org/index.php?ht=a/GetDocumentAction/i/144686
http://www2.paeaonline.org/index.php?ht=a/GetDocumentAction/i/161974
http://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/data-and-trends/2012-COM-AMProfile.pdf?sfvrsn=16

My overall objective assessment of the situation is that DO school tends to be more difficult to matriculate to than PA school.

 

[Ho0v-man]

DO schools had 14,935 applications for 5,464 (36.58%) matriculants in 2012. In comparison, there were 18,510 applicants for PA schools, which had 7,887 matriculants (42.6%).

DO matriculant GPA was 3.43 science/3.60 non-science/ 3.51 cumulative
PA matriculant GPA was 3.45 science/3.54 non-science/ 3.49 cumulative

Average DO MCAT was a 27 (61st percentile)
Average GRE was a 303 (56th percentile)

DO majors tended to be clustered in traditionally hard sciences (bio, chem, physics, etc).
PA majors tended to be in softer fields:
View attachment 202564
Overall, I'd say that DO matriculants tend to have similar GPAs, but more difficult majors, and have taken a much more difficult qualifying examination. In addition, more PAs were admitted as a raw percentage of applicants.

This is, of course, based on 2012 matriculant profiles, as the more recent CASPA information is behind a paywall.

http://www2.paeaonline.org/index.php?ht=a/GetDocumentAction/i/144686
http://www2.paeaonline.org/index.php?ht=a/GetDocumentAction/i/161974
http://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/data-and-trends/2012-COM-AMProfile.pdf?sfvrsn=16

My overall objective assessment of the situation is that DO school tends to be more difficult to matriculate to than PA school.

Dude. If you'd let me keep going I could have backed him into some big contradiction.

I was playing the long game, brah.

 

[Mad Jack]

Dude. If you'd let me keep going I could have backed him into some big contradiction.

I was playing the long game, brah.

I couldn't resist, I love me some stats.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Who the heck cares! At the end of the day PAs are assistant. I have been to a lot of big pharma drug talks and I have never seen a PA/NP being the speaker; it's ALWAYS a MD/DO.

No ones debating that. They didn't sign up for stuff like that so it's unfair to discredit them for something of that nature.

 

[W19]

No ones debating that. They didn't sign up for stuff like that so it's unfair to discredit them for something of that nature.

What are you debating then? I am sure all DO could have been PA had they chosen that path... I don't think the reverse is true. Take the MCAT and then we can talk.

 

[Ho0v-man]

We're debating which one has higher standards for admissions. He stated that PA is only slightly easier to get into than MD, but it's way harder than going DO. I was correcting him.

Status after graduation or difficulty of the program's was not up for debate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[daivimarga]

Guys, go outside. It's a beautiful day. This doesn't matter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MyNameWasUsed]

Who the heck cares! At the end of the day PAs are assistant. I have been to a lot of big pharma drug talks and I have never seen a PA/NP being the speaker; it's ALWAYS a MD/DO.

Lol if you dont care then why are you here. That's a pretty bad example to support your argument lol...

 

[MyNameWasUsed]

We're debating which one has higher standards for admissions. He stated that PA is only slightly easier to get into than MD, but it's way harder than going DO. I was correcting him.

Status after graduation or difficulty of the program's was not up for debate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't think PA school is way harder to get into than DO school. Just barely harder if not the same. With mad jack dropping all them stats I can see the other viewpoint.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

I don't think PA school is way harder to get into than DO school. Just barely harder if not the same. With mad jack dropping all them stats I can see the other viewpoint.

Well what could possibly contradict the statement of DO being harder to get into than PA, considering those stats? Because it doesn't seem like your numbers were similar...

 

[MyNameWasUsed]

Well what could possibly contradict the statement of DO being harder to get into than PA, considering those stats? Because it doesn't seem like your numbers were similar...

DO school allows grade replacement thus the GPAs presented by Mad Jack are probably skewed. Ho0v-man has claimed that grade replacement is overhyped but i don't think either you or i can determine the validity of that statement. Perhaps it is, perhaps its not. My argument was always based on DO allowing grade replacement. DOs need MCAT and PAs need thousands of HCE. The question now is what is more difficult to achieve? This is up for debate. Some people can study for 3 months and score a 31 on the MCAT but there is no freaking way you'll acquire 2000 HCE in 3 months.

 

[MyNameWasUsed]

The summation of our discussion thus far is "Yes DOs get in with lowish GPAs, but only because they did something great like a high MCAT, a post-bacc, etc." vs. "Yes PAs get in with lowish GPAs, but it's only because they amassed lots of HCE hours or had a high GRE score." (In the DO part you can switch MCAT and gpa around if you like.)

However, you yourself have admitted that acquiring HCE is an easy process and it's common knowledge that the MCAT is MUCH harder than the GRE.

So now the overall point becomes "You can get into DO school or PA school with an unbalanced application by doing other things." But by your own admission, the things you can do to make yourself more competitive for PA school are significantly easier than what you can do for DO.

So why is PA so much more competitive than DO, again?

I'm very much enjoying this discussion.

I think I missed your reply earlier, but first, I don't think its soooo much harder. Maybe I mispoke in another post but I think it's slightly more competitive.

Acquiring HCE is certainly easier than the MCAT, however, the time it takes to acquire HCE is absolute. 1 hour will always be 1 HCE. Like what I said in my previous post, what is more difficult to achieve? I do admit that there are people who just can't score a 28+ on the MCAT no matter how much they study and I would say those people are outliers. I think if you study 1000 hours (equal to 6 months full time work) you can score at least a 30. If you study 6 months full time and can't score at least a 30 then how do you expect to pass the PANCE (PA boards/licensing exam). I can't compare the MCAT to the PANCE. Does anybody have insight on this comparison? I would assume the PANCE is more difficult.

 

[Makati2008]

I think you have been misinformed about the accepted percentage. Either you have or I have. I couldn't find the official report by AAMC but a simple google search yields an article about 2013's results. http://www.kaptest.com/blog/med-school-pulse/2014/09/04/many-people-get-medical-school/ stated that "According to the AAMC, in 2013, over 48,000 people applied to medical school in the U.S., which was a record number! Of those nearly fifty thousand applicants, just over 20,000 (20,055) of them matriculated into their first year of medical school. This is the first year that medical school matriculations topped 20,000! Fortunately for you hopeful applicants, medical schools continue to add spots to meet demand for future physicians." 20,000/48,000 = 41.67% of people who applied were accepted to at least ONE medical school. 41% isn't bad really... If you wanted to target a specific school then yeah that's gonna be difficult but overall not bad at all.

I think the only real way of finding out if it's harder to get an interview is to average at least 100 school's interview percentages for both PA and MD/DO schools.

Who wouldn't use grade replacement if they had the chance to? Why handicap yourself in the DO competition?

This conversation is a great discussion. I like to see other people's perspectives and I keep an open mind.



I presume SLOEs are... LORs? Stellar letter or evaluation...? I see. I need to look up that data myself then. I apologize if I gave off the impression that i think the USMLE is easy because I certainly do not. I don't think I'll ever take a test as difficult as the USMLE and I'm very happy about that haha. I'm sure it's an extremely difficult test and I did considered how the 230 average is based on MS2 students. What do you mean by not all test takers? What is skewing this average?


I'm sure it can't be any worse than MS3. I'll be ready. I actually look forward to that year.

I'm thinking you are confused. I thought you are pre-PA


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

I think I missed your reply earlier, but first, I don't think its soooo much harder. Maybe I mispoke in another post but I think it's slightly more competitive.

Acquiring HCE is certainly easier than the MCAT, however, the time it takes to acquire HCE is absolute. 1 hour will always be 1 HCE. Like what I said in my previous post, what is more difficult to achieve? I do admit that there are people who just can't score a 28+ on the MCAT no matter how much they study and I would say those people are outliers. I think if you study 1000 hours (equal to 6 months full time work) you can score at least a 30. If you study 6 months full time and can't score at least a 30 then how do you expect to pass the PANCE (PA boards/licensing exam). I can't compare the MCAT to the PANCE. Does anybody have insight on this comparison? I would assume the PANCE is more difficult.

Theres a huge difference. When studying for the MCAT, you can't really work full time. Your full time job becomes studying for it. Then you endure the grueling test. You also have harder/more pre-reqs. As a pre-PA you can gain 2000 hours in a year of full time employment or 2 years of part time employment. This can be done during school if you wish, or during a gap year.. I worked a year as an MA and around 9 months as a CNA... It was much better than having to take hard classes or study for the MCAT, as I was also getting paid well to do those jobs..

The difference is ANYBODY can accumulate 2000 HCE.. But not anyone can do well on the MCAT or even the extra pre-reqs you must take for med school.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I think I missed your reply earlier, but first, I don't think its soooo much harder. Maybe I mispoke in another post but I think it's slightly more competitive.

Acquiring HCE is certainly easier than the MCAT, however, the time it takes to acquire HCE is absolute. 1 hour will always be 1 HCE. Like what I said in my previous post, what is more difficult to achieve? I do admit that there are people who just can't score a 28+ on the MCAT no matter how much they study and I would say those people are outliers. I think if you study 1000 hours (equal to 6 months full time work) you can score at least a 30. If you study 6 months full time and can't score at least a 30 then how do you expect to pass the PANCE (PA boards/licensing exam). I can't compare the MCAT to the PANCE. Does anybody have insight on this comparison? I would assume the PANCE is more difficult.

The fallacy in this argument is that DOs can and have performed well on boards despite these low MCAT scores for decades. How could someone hope to pass the PANCE if they can't score in the ~70ish percentile on the MCAT? Well they've been doing just fine on it scoring in the 55-60ish percentile on the GRE, an easier test. Also, those few folks that can't get in MD/DO because of the MCAT who instead go PA don't fail the PANCE to my knowledge (although I've never seen official data on this as this population is probably very small).

You're HCE argument has merit. However, since HCE has become "fluffier" over the last decade or so it's really not that big of a deal. In fact, I'd wager that most premeds have at least (or at worst close to) the minimum HCE to apply to most PA schools by the time they submit their apps. Also, gap years for premeds are becoming more and more common so they can do things like study for the MCAT, work on a research project, take some upper division science classes AND accumulate HCE. They essentially have to do this because med school seems to want people that are obsessed with making themselves as competitive as possible (but they also don't like gunners. That's a complaint for another thread though). So the time argument doesn't really hold a lot of water because if all you do is acquire HCE in your down time, med school will be pretty underwhelmed.

Also, and let's just be real here, the HCE necessary for any PA school could easily be acquired with a part time job as a CNA/PCT while working through undergrad. Unless mom and dad are bankrolling your education, most premeds/prepas do something like this. In my premed classes and on the interview trail, everyone I talked to had a clinical job of some kind.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Theres a huge difference. When studying for the MCAT, you can't really work full time. Your full time job becomes studying for it. Then you endure the grueling test. You also have harder/more pre-reqs. As a pre-PA you can gain 2000 hours in a year of full time employment or 2 years of part time employment. This can be done during school if you wish, or during a gap year.. I worked a year as an MA and around 9 months as a CNA... It was much better than having to take hard classes or study for the MCAT, as I was also getting paid well to do those jobs..

The difference is ANYBODY can accumulate 2000 HCE.. But not anyone can do well on the MCAT or even the extra pre-reqs you must take for med school.

Agree with your post overall. However, credit should be given where it's due. When I was pre pa, I was pretty annoyed at all the extra pre reqs I had to take compared to the pre meds. What really stinks is that there's a lot of variation between what PA schools want. There are a few that don't require any ochem, others want both and biochem. Another wants only ochem 1, but also wants a medical terminology class and immunology. But my undergrad wants ochem 2 for no reason just to take immunology. They all want A&P 1&2. So if you want to apply broadly, you have to take all kinds of crap!

The pre reqs for MD/DO are much more standard across the board.

 

[Mad Jack]

DO school allows grade replacement thus the GPAs presented by Mad Jack are probably skewed. Ho0v-man has claimed that grade replacement is overhyped but i don't think either you or i can determine the validity of that statement. Perhaps it is, perhaps its not. My argument was always based on DO allowing grade replacement. DOs need MCAT and PAs need thousands of HCE. The question now is what is more difficult to achieve? This is up for debate. Some people can study for 3 months and score a 31 on the MCAT but there is no freaking way you'll acquire 2000 HCE in 3 months.

CASPA considers allied health courses science courses, so those numbers are probably skewed as well. To say nothing of the fact that 2/3 of DOs compete hard science majors while the only hard science in the top ten majors for PA school is bio, the easiest of the hard sciences.

 

[Mad Jack]

The fallacy in this argument is that DOs can and have performed well on boards despite these low MCAT scores for decades. How could someone hope to pass the PANCE if they can't score in the ~70ish percentile on the MCAT? Well they've been doing just fine on it scoring in the 55-60ish percentile on the GRE, an easier test. Also, those few folks that can't get in MD/DO because of the MCAT who instead go PA don't fail the PANCE to my knowledge (although I've never seen official data on this as this population is probably very small).

You're HCE argument has merit. However, since HCE has become "fluffier" over the last decade or so it's really not that big of a deal. In fact, I'd wager that most premeds have at least (or at worst close to) the minimum HCE to apply to most PA schools by the time they submit their apps. Also, gap years for premeds are becoming more and more common so they can do things like study for the MCAT, work on a research project, take some upper division science classes AND accumulate HCE. They essentially have to do this because med school seems to want people that are obsessed with making themselves as competitive as possible (but they also don't like gunners. That's a complaint for another thread though). So the time argument doesn't really hold a lot of water because if all you do is acquire HCE in your down time, med school will be pretty underwhelmed.

Also, and let's just be real here, the HCE necessary for any PA school could easily be acquired with a part time job as a CNA/PCT while working through undergrad. Unless mom and dad are bankrolling your education, most premeds/prepas do something like this. In my premed classes and on the interview trail, everyone I talked to had a clinical job of some kind.

In all fairness, the average PA matriculant still had 5,000 hours of HCE, and I believe the SD was 3,000 hours. So the vast majority of people have at least a year of HCE. At the same time, the vast majority also have no research experience and were in easier majors. Hell, only around half even have to take the GRE, which is a joke of a test, while the average premed spends hundreds of hours prepping for the MCAT. And >90% of CASPA applicants had zero research experience- another spot where premeds could make up time gaining HCE.

 

[W19]

In all fairness, the average PA matriculant still had 5,000 hours of HCE, and I believe the SD was 3,000 hours. So the vast majority of people have at least a year of HCE. At the same time, the vast majority also have no research experience and were in easier majors. Hell, only around half even have to take the GRE, which is a joke of a test, while the average premed spends hundreds of hours prepping for the MCAT. And >90% of CASPA applicants had zero research experience- another spot where premeds could make up time gaining HCE.

Isn't the GRE a requirement for almost all PA schools just like the MCAT is for med school?

 

[Mad Jack]

Isn't the GRE a requirement for almost all PA schools just like the MCAT is for med school?

Per CASPA, in 2012, only 53% of programs required the GRE. I did find more data, however, that shows in 2013 there was a large increase in GRE participation, with 71% of programs requiring the GRE. But still, it's the GRE. It's a test that most people can get a decent score on without even studying for lol.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Per CASPA, in 2012, only 53% of programs required the GRE. I did find more data, however, that shows in 2013 there was a large increase in GRE participation, with 71% of programs requiring the GRE. But still, it's the GRE. It's a test that most people can get a decent score on without even studying for lol.

I've never taken it, but I've have friends that couldn't get into certain masters programs because they wanted a high score. I don't know, when you say "most" you might be referring to premed peers who might just be in a whole other level than the typical GRE taker. IIRC from another thread, you're a VERY good standardized test taker.

That being said, for PA school it's really bad if you bomb it. It's really nice if you rock it. It's just a formality otherwise.

 

[Mad Jack]

I've never taken it, but I've have friends that couldn't get into certain masters programs because they wanted a high score. I don't know, when you say "most" you might be referring to premed peers who might just be in a whole other level than the typical GRE taker. IIRC from another thread, you're a VERY good standardized test taker.

That being said, for PA school it's really bad if you bomb it. It's really nice if you rock it. It's just a formality otherwise.

There's a difference between the score PA schools want and the score a lot of top-notch master/PhD programs want. Many of them are looking for 80%ile+, while most PA schools cut off at roughly the 50%ile+. It's like the difference between getting a 24 and a 32 on the MCAT, totally apples to oranges. But I'd still say that the MCAT is a more difficult exam- I studied for both when I was waffling between PA and physician, and I was on track for a 90th percentile GRE from day 1, whereas it took me months to get there on the MCAT side of things. The fund of knowledge and level of thinking is just on a whole different level. Step 1 is to the MCAT what the MCAT is to the GRE, basically.

 

[Ho0v-man]

There's a difference between the score PA schools want and the score a lot of top-notch master/PhD programs want. Many of them are looking for 80%ile+, while most PA schools cut off at roughly the 50%ile+. It's like the difference between getting a 24 and a 32 on the MCAT, totally apples to oranges. But I'd still say that the MCAT is a more difficult exam- I studied for both when I was waffling between PA and physician, and I was on track for a 90th percentile GRE from day 1, whereas it took me months to get there on the MCAT side of things. The fund of knowledge and level of thinking is just on a whole different level. Step 1 is to the MCAT what the MCAT is to the GRE, basically.

Hey thanks. I always kinda wondered about the GRE.

 

[W19]

Per CASPA, in 2012, only 53% of programs required the GRE. I did find more data, however, that shows in 2013 there was a large increase in GRE participation, with 71% of programs requiring the GRE. But still, it's the GRE. It's a test that most people can get a decent score on without even studying for lol.

Anyone can get a decent GPA as long as they are judicious in choosing school/professors. That's why they have ratemyprofessor. Many underestimate how tricky the MCAT can be. I got accepted into pharm school with a very high PCAT. Then I changed my mind and decided to go to med school and I was shocked and humbled after taking my first MCAT practice test. It took me almost 4 months to get my score to an acceptable level for med school...

Just like another poster above think it's easy to get 230 on step 1. These posters don't understand that US med students are part of one of the most intelligent and hard working groups in the country... I know some people don't believe in IQ, but according to a study done by University of Wisconsin, US physicians IQ is the highest of all professions, it's almost 2 standard deviation above average of the US population. I think it's an insane figure.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

... I know some people don't believe in IQ, but according to a study done by University of Wisconsin, US physicians IQ is the highest of all professions, it's almost 2 standard deviation above average of the US population. I think it's an insane figure.

Of course, neither IQ testing, MCAT, or GRE test for common sense or wisdom........ <ducking for cover!>

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Anyone can get a decent GPA as long as they are judicious in choosing school/professors. That's why they have ratemyprofessor. Many underestimate how tricky the MCAT can be. I got accepted into pharm school with a very high PCAT. Then I changed my mind and decided to go to med school and I was shocked and humbled after taking my first MCAT practice test. It took me almost 4 months to get my score to an acceptable level for med school...

Just like another poster above think it's easy to get 230 on step 1. These posters don't understand that US med students are part of one of the most intelligent and hard working groups in the country... I know some people don't believe in IQ, but according to a study done by University of Wisconsin, US physicians IQ is the highest of all professions, it's almost 2 standard deviation above average of the US population. I think it's an insane figure.

Its true. And the thing is, the hard work and dedication and commitment and selflessness doesn't end at graduation or after residency. It is seriously a life long commitment.

 

[GypsyHummus]

I have to disagree. I have nothing but respect for PAs and actually was originally pre-PA myself but changed my mind to go to med school. I'm sure there are plenty of PAs that could go MD/DO. But if they didn't take the MCAT, we'll never know. It's a final weed out that lots of people with perfect GPAs, research, pubs, etc find to be the one obstacle that keeps them from getting in anywhere.

Even getting a lowly 24 (or whatever it is on the new scale) isn't as easy a blowing out the candles on a birthday cake like so many people think. There are lots of people that went to top tier undergrads that rocked their classes and can't break a 20. I know I could have gotten into PA school based on just having a high GPA and tons of HCE. There's a lot more to it to go to med school.

Also worth mentioning is that people who get in DO with a 24 MCAT are typically the people who had a stellar app otherwise and did a post-bacc.

If we want to just talk about GPA, then I actually think PA school is less forgiving than MD and definitely DO. But because of the hurdle that is the MCAT and that PA really doesn't care as much about research and doesn't emphasize ECs as much, even DO is much harder than PA.

Now if we want to talk about admissions standards at NP schools, I think the limiting factor to receiving an NP degree is just having an Internet connection.

Super agree. I climbed my way back from a horrendous GPA, did the research, did the clinical work, got the DO letter, all the hoops I jumped through and planted face first into the wall known as the mcat.

 

[FutureDO2016]

What is the starting salary for PA's that are new grads fresh out of school? For primary care and specialties? Midwest region.

Based on my research for primary care-IM/Family med PA's make 70-85K starting and then for specialties like ENT/ER-its like 80-90K and then for things like derm/ortho-it's like 90K+ starting??? I know certain cities there is saturation and lower pay vs other cities but I'm talking about in general because some places I read 70K starting and others I read 100K starting and that's a big difference....why would a new PA grad (unless they don't like certain surgical specialties) take a 70K job when they could take a 90-110K job?

Please correct me if I'm wrong...

 

[Mad Jack]

What is the starting salary for PA's that are new grads fresh out of school? For primary care and specialties? Midwest region.

Based on my research for primary care-IM/Family med PA's make 70-85K starting and then for specialties like ENT/ER-its like 80-90K and then for things like derm/ortho-it's like 90K+ starting??? I know certain cities there is saturation and lower pay vs other cities but I'm talking about in general because some places I read 70K starting and others I read 100K starting and that's a big difference....why would a new PA grad (unless they don't like certain surgical specialties) take a 70K job when they could take a 90-110K job?

Please correct me if I'm wrong...

Outpatient primary care jobs tend to be lower pay but substantially lower stress. Ortho PAs often work 55-60 hours a week for their salaries (as do a great many surgical PAs). ED work is burnout city, so it pays. Also, the higher paying stuff has a much higher skill ceiling- just because you graduated from PA school doesn't mean you'll be competent in the OR or ER, and that can get you fired or blacklisted from similar positions in a heartbeat.

 

[FutureDO2016]

Outpatient primary care jobs tend to be lower pay but substantially lower stress. Ortho PAs often work 55-60 hours a week for their salaries (as do a great many surgical PAs). ED work is burnout city, so it pays. Also, the higher paying stuff has a much higher skill ceiling- just because you graduated from PA school doesn't mean you'll be competent in the OR or ER, and that can get you fired or blacklisted from similar positions in a heartbeat.

What is the starting salary for outpatient primary care PAs and then what is the starting salary for surgical PAs?

Obviously the more experienced PAs will get paid more due to more experience and higher level of skills.

 

[Mad Jack]

What is the starting salary for outpatient primary care PAs and then what is the starting salary for surgical PAs?

Obviously the more experienced PAs will get paid more due to more experience and higher level of skills.

Outpatient PCP is anywhere from 70-90k, depending on area. Surgical/EM is anywhere from 80-120k, depending on area. There's going to be exceptions, but that's what's typically out there.

 

[FutureDO2016]

Outpatient PCP is anywhere from 70-90k, depending on area. Surgical/EM is anywhere from 80-120k, depending on area. There's going to be exceptions, but that's what's typically out there.

Thanks! Also, after about 5-10 years experience...would you say the salary would increase to 90K for primary care PAs and for surgical specialties and EM it would be toward the 110-120K?

I guess even if you make 80K as a new PA, you can always work more overtime and pick up more shifts to make as much as you desire?

 

[Mad Jack]

Thanks! Also, after about 5-10 years experience...would you say the salary would increase to 90K for primary care PAs and for surgical specialties and EM it would be toward the 110-120K?

I guess even if you make 80K as a new PA, you can always work more overtime and pick up more shifts to make as much as you desire?

I've known a couple of fresh PAs that worked two jobs with basically zero days off to earn 200k/year. They hated their lives and had relationships that fell to pieces.

And in PC, your income will likely be closer to 90-100k with experience, while in surgery and EM it hits closer to 120-140k. It all highly depends on the local market though.

 

[FutureDO2016]

I've known a couple of fresh PAs that worked two jobs with basically zero days off to earn 200k/year. They hated their lives and had relationships that fell to pieces.

And in PC, your income will likely be closer to 90-100k with experience, while in surgery and EM it hits closer to 120-140k. It all highly depends on the local market though.

Thanks for sharing your insight!